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  1. #1
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    July 2013 Rocky Ridge Trail 9A "Bootleg" Closed

    Curious as to why York County Parks has decided to close "Bootleg" at Rocky Ridge County Park. Did someone get hurt? Were their concerns of safety?
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    Yamba Forums ? View topic - Bootleg/Trail 9A Closed


    I would think that the email would be available to the public, since it involved the county government.

  3. #3
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    Well it was a liability issue waiting to happen imo. I am surprised it lasted as long as it did.

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    There are trails like that on public lands all over the USA, some of which are far more technical, that were built by IMBA.
    Last edited by Bigrocks; 07-18-2013 at 08:34 AM.

  5. #5
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    York County Department of Parks and Recreation
    Administrative Headquarters: 400 Mundis Race Road, York, PA 17406-9721

    Nixon County Park Nature Center
    5922 Nixon Drive
    York, Pa 17403-967
    717-428-1961

    Phone: 717-840-7440
    Fax: 717-840-7403
    E-mail: parks@york-county.org
    Website: Parks & Recreation

    July 1, 2013
    To: Rocky Ridge Mountain Bikers:
    Trail 9A was laid out by Kevin Westover (YAMBA) and Mike Fobes, Manager of Natural Resources-York County Parks Department in the winter of 2011-2012. The original trail 9A was in need of a reroute due to poor design of years ago. The old trail had steep slopes which caused severe erosion and was very difficult to navigate by foot, bike or horseback. Kevin, speaking on behalf of YAMBA, agreed to build the new multi-use trail to the same standards as other single track trails in the park system.

    The first issue we have with the new 9A trail, is the YAMBA/Parks trail layout had it stopping at the intersection of trail #3. Someone continued building the trail past the intersection and looping it back to trail #3, without permission from the parks department. The grade of that illegal section of trail is well beyond what YAMBA or IMBA recommends for trail building and was not approved by the parks department. We simply cannot allow people to build trails anywhere they want in the park.
    At this time, we know YAMBA volunteers built the approved trail. We do not know if they are responsible for the added section of trail, jumps, ramps or the banked turns. Whoever built those devices did so without park permission and we consider the “spoil holes” & trail devices as destruction of parks property. These illegal devices create a large county liability issue for those that attempt to ride the trail or the innocent trail user who happens to be hiking or riding a horse on the trail.

    The York County Parks Department realizes this trail is unsafe for all users, whether they are hikers, bikers or horseback riders. Past experience tells us the removed devices would “show up” again if the trail remains open. So the devices will be removed and the trail will be permanently closed. We will continue to prohibit man-made hazardous devices such as those found on trail 9A in the park system. Any person found building devices on park trails are in violation of park regulations.

    We will continue to offer safe trails not only for mountain bikers, but to all our multi-use trail users. Safety of all trail users can only occur when we consider all types of trail users when building/improving a trail instead of focusing on one user group.
    Sincerely
    Tammy Klunk
    Parks Director

    Mike Fobes
    Manager of Natural Resources

    717-428-1961
    E-mail: parks@york-county.org
    Website: Parks & Recreation
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  6. #6
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    That Sucks!! These Rogue trail Clowns need to go somewhere where ONLY they can ride and build!!--This same crap has been happening on PhillyMTBR for years at THE WISS---(it was even the president, or something like that??)

    These Clowns mess things up for everyone!!!!!

  7. #7
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    I don't think it was a case where they were intentionally building stuff they knew was unapproved. It was probably a case of whisper down the lane. One guy gets permission to build a trail, tells another guy he has permission to build a trail, another guy builds a small jump hearing that they've got permission to build a trail, and before long you've got guys building drops and berms because they heard someone got permission to build a trail.

    My feeling is that if your the "lead" trail builder you've got keep your people under control AND AND AND urge the land manager/owner to walk the trail frequently. This frequent visit can give you feedback often and early about the conditions and design they like and don't like.

    Meanwhile, you've got spread that feedback around to fellow builders that "hey, they don't like these jumps at all, stop building them or the whole trail will get closed."

    I personally know people who put time and effort into this trail under the impression that it was "OK'ed" by the park administrators.
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  8. #8
    247
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    So here is my Next Question:

    Do you think 'Closing the trail' will really stop those who rode it (from still riding it..)

    I am sure if I am there tomorrow I will still see people riding that trail!?!?

  9. #9
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    Yes and no.

    Parks Maintenance folks are horrible at doing trail maintenance and trail building, but they seem very good at limiting access to trails they view as a liability. All the jumps and berms will be flattened, they'll probably place boulders or logs at the beginning and ends, and they'll scatter all the rocks that were used as ramps onto the drops.

    At least thats what I'd do if I didn't want people to ride it.
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  10. #10
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    Well if they make it safer at those spots (why not do that AND then keep the trail open??) I am sure those jumps are just at certain spots (just burn them down or blow them up!!)----but keep the trail open...

    I am sure these guys do these things during the daytime (and have these tools and wood in their trucks)---Wonder why Park Rangers (who just chill in the office all day)--don't just put up a camera in the parking lot (like they DONT already have one!?!?)---

    --and just catch these guys when they start building ILLEGAL trail features??? I Always wondered that?? --OR better yet Actually ride those trails twice a day and see what is going on... I have ridden trails for 5 years now and have NEVER seen park rangers out on any trails??? I Always though 'why are not folks really getting robbed and hurt on trails??---Because there are No Cameras and Usually No cell reception..)---that is why I AM ALWAYS prepared for foolish folks out there!! but that is me!! when I first started biking 4 seasons ago I had seen this story of this fool out in Cali. who attacked people with bats and machete's (a few times!!)---so even with stray dogs you had better be ready to NOT get hurt (but that is just me)--I have not once even gotten but by a dog (chased, but then I got aggressive towards them... and they backed off.) But almost everyone I have met riding on trails has been bit by a dog.....

  11. #11
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    I was up the other day and they made sure it is not rideable. I had rode the trail and certain sections imo were a bit much and were not useable by anyone other then the people who built it. They claimed there were ride arounds near some of the more difficult areas and there really wasn't. There was actually a couple areas pretty tore up due to hard braking just so they could make a corner and slow down from the speed they were running.
    While I commend the group for working with County Parks office and doing different trail maintenance this trail was a bad idea from the beginning. YAMBA has done some great things at RR, but 9A was not a trail that could be used by everyone. It was a liability for the Parks imo.

  12. #12
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    My feeling is that if a trail cannot be ridden up, it should not be built on public land. This would include stunts and jumps.

    Discussion from back in June on Bootleg Yamba Forums • View topic - insane trail 9a?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    My feeling is that if a trail cannot be ridden up, it should not be built on public land. This would include stunts and jumps.
    [/url]
    I agree with this statement and you definitely could not ride up this trail at all. This was how I initially found it from the bottom of it. I tried to ride down it a few times and it was not fun for me at all. At that point it was more about seeing what they built and more or less just smh...

  14. #14
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    My feeling is that if a trail cannot be ridden up, it should not be built on public land. This would include stunts and jumps
    Anyone have a video of this?? I have yet to see a hill I cannot climb!!

    But with the stunts and Jumps (I just don't do)---I ride solo 99.99% of the time and don't want to endo (over the bars or break something unnecessary aside from just straight riding dirt..)

    I have only seen one hill that is too crazy to ride up (Neshaminy, Pa.)--there are a lot of jumps there also (and next to a high school) that has a mountain biking class I heard...

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    I was up there tonight and someone has already tried to move all the brush they had at the trail head at the top of the trail. The sign that was there was tore down. This type of stuff is even worse then building the rogue trail. I don't want to see the whole place shut down to riding because of the piss poor decisions of others since they did not get their way.

    247, there are sections of that trail that are not rideable in the uphil direction. I was trying to ride up it when I found out what it was about. If you ride the whole thing from the bottom to the top I would love to see it!

  16. #16
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    It should be pretty easy to catch these guys (riding and building these spots)---again, just hide out or put up a camera.. Then issue Fines!!--take them to court for Trespassing.. They will stop building and riding if that happens!!

    --Also my calves have not seen a hill I cannot conquer.. I have ridden my bike up Inclines most folks can't walk (like at THE WISS in Philly..)

    --also I am at a weird angle holding my computer when I just took this pic..

    --BUT I AM PISSED!!--Trail 9 I did not do yet there.. Been there Twice now also..

    --But I did ride Trail 7 (it is Insane at that part, I Loved it there)--right where it ends there were 2 guys and a girl hanging out there and the one guy said he jumped over the Boulder to the other side TWICE.. He was going to do it again (but the girl said he almost fell the second time...)--I said it was not worth it.. But I was going to give them $10 for a 6-pack if he made it (I was gonna get it on video on my phone..)--Yes, I am a 'born character myself'....

    The first time I rode trail 5/6 twice (loved that part the first time I went a month ago)--even went between trail that connects 5a-5b (tight singletrack there that had an incline at the end)-----rode it down 'flying' the first time (then rode it back up)--then rode trail 6 past the playground?? area there..

    That place is like taking THE WISS in Philly, adding 5 miles and Doubling the rocks (and losing 90% of the riders at Fairmount park)----I love that place!!---can't get there enough to ride!?!?!?

    --If it opens back up I will PM you and ride that part with you (in case I fall it is nice to have some help!!)

    Attachment 817454

  17. #17
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    247, sounds from your description you mainly rode the front half of the park and nothing in the back. Not sure where you are from, but let me know next time you are coming to RR and we can hook up. I'm only about 8 mins from there and ride it a lot and still am finding new things to ride.
    FYI, 9 is a completely different trail and is not closed, just 9A that was made purely as a downhill course.

  18. #18
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    cool, I almost had 1/2 a chance to ride there this morning. Now it will be 2-3 weeks until I can get back to York. But Yeah, I have been all around the outside (just been having fun from those 2 parking lots when you come in)--and riding around (and through the trails)--though on I did run into some Dead-ends (like on trail 6 I remember.) Then I was talking to this guy from Australia (older guy) but had a sweet Niner MDO? (the carbon fully)--and he gave me a run down of that trail (and Lake Redman?)

    p.s. Now I can take the picture off (just put it on to show you I 'Rides me some Climbs!!!)---

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    I'd urge folks to let it go and not push keeping that trail open. The insurance co's are ultimately the ones calling the shots (yeah I know it's f'd up) and would love to remove the "risk" of allowing bikes in the parks entirely. I really would hate to see that happen.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PdlPwr View Post
    I'd urge folks to let it go and not push keeping that trail open. The insurance co's are ultimately the ones calling the shots (yeah I know it's f'd up) and would love to remove the "risk" of allowing bikes in the parks entirely. I really would hate to see that happen.
    Well someone is physically not letting the trail alone. I was up again today and it appears more brush from the upper trail head is gone now then when I was there Friday. Someone is being a complete idiot about this imo.

  21. #21
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    Well here is what I see happening, theses fools are gonna' ride regardless!

    Unless they put the 'wall of China' around the trail (putting signs, or blocking entrances at Trailheads do not work)---so you will have 99% of the public Not riding here (if they hear bikers are forbidden)--but these fools are still gonna ride it (and will probably even out up different trail features)--

    Common sense would have been to BE OUT THERE the last 3 days waiting for them!! Guess the Parks Dept. could care less (just give them an excuse to get the ignorant bikers gone completely......) Glad I don't live in York now...

  22. #22
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    247,

    RELAX man...

    Yes that parks could do a better job, but so could the riders. My interest in starting this thread was to spread the word about the issues concerning the trail and Rocky Ridge as a whole. I've also been talking with some of the folks who helped build the trail over there and they are avoiding Rocky Ridge as a whole. They don't want any of their gang to be responsible for closing down the park to MTB even if they are riding DH bikes on trails besides those they built.

    So there are responsible DH riders out there, but we as a community have to RELAX and have a laid back conversation with other riders about the state of trails in our public parks.
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    Here is the YAMBA response to the Trail 9A closure which we posted on yamba.org and the YAMBA FB page today:

    Most of you are probably aware of the recent trail closure of “9A” at Rocky Ridge. We wanted to provide everyone with an update after Dan Walko and Skip Durgin met recently with Commissioner Reily, Parks Director Tammy Klunk and Parks Land Manager Mike Fobes.

    The problem is twofold which only lends to the complexity of this unfortunate situation. First, there appears to have been a miscommunication between the Parks and YAMBA as to what extent natural features could be incorporated into this trail. YAMBA was under the impression after we initially met with the Parks last year, that we could incorporate natural occurring rock features that fell within the trail corridor for those riders that like to ride over such features. Unfortunately, due to liability concerns from York County itself, these features that can be used as ramps and jumps are not allowed within the York County Parks. Furthermore, the Parks have now officially closed Trail 9A and there are no plans to re-open it.

    Second, after our initial Trail work in November of 2012 to cut in this trail, a multitude of additional work has been done to Trail 9A without YAMBA’s knowledge or approval. The majority of this work appears to have been done recently with large amounts of dirt being excavated to build jumps and additional berms were built in locations that were unnecessary. The Parks consider this destruction of Park property which is a citable offense. Though it appears no citations are going to be issued at this time, we want everyone to understand the severity of this situation and that any kind of illegal trail building in the future will not be tolerated and citations will be issued (this also includes if anyone attempts to re-open Trail# 9A).

    Moving forward, YAMBA will still be partnering with the York County Parks to help maintain existing trails and educating all trail users on safe and sustainable multi-use trails. At the request of the Parks Department, for the time being we will not be engaging in the construction of any new trails.

    Additionally, as a result of this situation Kevin Westover has decided to step down as Trail Advocacy Coordinator. This is very unfortunate that this situation has resulted in this, but Kevin still plans to help out the club with administrating our YAMBA website. We would like to express our sincere Thanks to Kevin for the four years he has volunteered for the club in this capacity and all of the fantastic trails that have come to fruition as a result of his creative trail building talents. Thanks for everything Kevin!

    In needing a Trail Advocacy Coordinator, Skip Durgin has elected to take on this open position so YAMBA can continue on with its mission of the preservation of the Trail systems within the York County Parks.

    In closing, we would like to apologize to the volunteers that put time and sweat equity into the authorized portion of this trail project. In the past 12+ years, YAMBA has built a multitude of trails within the York County Parks and has never had any problems or issues of this kind. We are very proud of all of the trails that we have built and hope that somewhere down the road when the trust factor is re-established with the Parks that we can continue with our trail building efforts.

    Moving forward, all questions, concerns and complaints regarding any Trails within the Parks should be directed towards Skip Durgin and he will in turn take these matters up with the Parks Management directly.

    Thanks for your patience and understanding as we work through this problem. We are confident that we will become a stronger and better club because of it.

    See you on the trails,

    The YAMBA Trail Advocacy Committee

  24. #24
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    That's a shame about Kevin, but I don't blame him. It was a thankless job, always caught in the middle of different interests.

    Thanks for all your hard work, Kevin, especially on Rusty Chair!

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    Agreed, many thanks to Kevin for his hard work. Mostly due to him MTBers in our area now get to enjoy: Rusty Chair, Broken Arrow, Bipolar, Old Man Trail, and Copper Head. All five or which are some of the best trails in York parks.
    It's a real slap in the face that there won't be any new trails for the foreseeable future. I hope YAMBA becomes an IMBA chapter sooner than later so they can get better guidance on these sorts of issues in the future...

  26. #26
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    I'm gonna be honest here,

    The Parks Department is ridiculous in its naivety that there are not thousands of natural features that already pose a risk through-out numerous York County Parks, State Parks, and National Parks.

    Chickies Rocky County Park, right across the river, for example, has one of the most popular climbing areas in the southeast PA. Numerous people have committed suicide, fallen off the cliff, and been injured at the park. Does the county close the park? Nope. They put up some poor fencing, some signs, and call it day.

    Ironically, Lancaster County Parks bulldozed a popular dirt-jump area below the cliff face due to "liability concerns".

    Was it wrong for people to build jumps on the trail? Yes. Those were unapproved. But I guarantee there are "unseen" jumps in Rocky Ridge and other York County Parks where you can plenty more air than the poorly built jumps on Bootleg.

    York County Parks is just taking the easy road out. They are limited on the budget and scrutinized by the public, and rather than giving volunteers more freedom to use public land and have more frequent communication and surveillance of volunteer projects, they'd rather just say "no more volunteer built trails".

    Meanwhile, some 10 year old breaks his arm on a flat, paved, completely "safe" rail trail.
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  27. #27
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    247,

    RELAX man...
    Then reading this it DID seem to be a big deal, guess I was Right, Cause heads rolled!!

    Additionally, as a result of this situation Kevin Westover has decided to step down as Trail Advocacy Coordinator. This is very unfortunate that this situation has resulted in this

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    The Parks Department is ridiculous in its naivety that there are not thousands of natural features that already pose a risk through-out numerous York County Parks, State Parks, and National Parks.
    I agree, but government bodies will be government bodies and will always try to take the easy road. However, what we need is a strong advocacy group who will actually stick up for the local mountain bike community rather than bending over backwards for the park. Then things may actually get done with changing their minds... Unfortunately we don't have that in this area, so we are SOL...

  29. #29
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    I'd contend that a group like IMBA would be able to better explain to York County Parks that their insurance would cover any liability, and that proper signage, feature detours, and trail building can make even something like 9A very safe.

    It isn't an issue of "sticking it to the man", but rather "convincing the man he's doing something right."

    I've worked in government, and my experience is that decision makers in government are usually like a horse with blinders. Parks Departments are usually good at mowing, removing trash, repairing buildings, open and closing gates, maintaining pools, and hosting summer camps. Occasionally you'll get a parks department that can remove downed trees relatively quickly, and they usually consider that "trail maintenance".

    I've approached many a park administrator about unsustainable trails, and how volunteer can build detours. Usually their response "we'll probably close that trail, but we don't have the staff to build a new one."

    WTF? I just told you volunteers would build it!

    And that where I think most governments fall flat on their face. They just don't know how to manage volunteer relationships outside of little old ladies helping out at the local library.

    IMBA staff are very good at educating government decisions makers on how "the county or state next door" is doing things. It makes those decisions makers feel old and uneducated. It drives government leaders to say "hey, you know what, we need a pump track at our central park because they are cheap and safe and kids love them!"

    IMBA doesn't battle governments, it battles ignorance.
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    I find it amusing how some people comment on a topic and they have very little understanding of the situation or what the facts are. Everyone has a right to his/her opinion but make sure your opinion is an informed one, not uninformed. What we need in York County is for more people to get involved and help with trail work and give back to the Parks. Instead people want to just ride their bikes and let a very small group who understands what Trail advocacy is really about do the majority of the work. Trail Advocacy is not pushing the issue with your local land manager or threatening not to do trail work anymore to get your way. Two facts of this matter that are the plain and simple truth is this....1) If YAMBA had not been established 12+ years ago, we wouldn't have anywhere near the extensive and kick-ass trail systems that we have today 2) If YAMBA had not established the rapport that we have with the York County Parks then this current situation with Trail# 9A would have most likely ended with mountain biking being banned or limited within the Parks.

    Nuff said,

    Skip Durgin
    Co-Founder
    York Area Mountain Bike Association
    www.YAMBA.org

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    July 2013 Rocky Ridge Trail 9A "Bootleg" Closed

    Hold on let me grab some popcorn

  32. #32
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    Skip,

    These are public trails, that YAMBA members, SAMBA members, and BAMBA members probably all ride. Not to mention hundreds of riders who probably have no affiliation. When the trail got closed, lots of people were left in the dark. The general public was left in the dark. I'm sure there are lots of paying YAMBA members who are wondering "what the hell happened and how do we make sure it doesn't happen again?"

    That's all I cared about. What can we the Pennsylvania community, learn from this situation?

    As the OP, I don't think I ever bashed YAMBA, and my frustration with the all-too-common liability issue at the county is one that I've voiced not just about York County Parks, but local government across Pennsylvania.
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  33. #33
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    Well since I rode the trail way after the YAMBA volunteers built it, I don't know what was stuff they did and what was the rouge stuff. It was definitely a sketchy trail if you don't own the proper bike for it or possess the skills to ride it.
    I for one do appreciate the work that was done on other trails at RR and the Lakes by the YAMBA crew. New trails and reroutes were definitely a good thing at both places. I don't want to see the group go away and I applaud the work done thus far. I moved out of York back in 2000 and remember what the trail system was like before I left for UT. I think it is a much better trail system imo and I seem to discover more trails every time I ride RR. Only thing with that I did notice today a couple I was on had no numbered trail markers, so no idea if they are legit trails or not, but fun none the less.
    I hope YAMBA is not going to throw in the towel since this happened. I personally wondered how long the trail was going to exist given the initial intent of the build. It was kind of a risky move of an all out DH trail in a public park. I have nothing against downhill riders at all and all the ones I ran into at the head of that trail when I rode by all seemed polite. Hopefully something can get worked out, but I feel the park office needs to come out to really see the good of all that has been done rather then hearing it from people who may be just feeding them BS.

    The group that seems to probably complain the most and does the least for trails is the horse riders. I find it rediculous in the sense when you walk/run your dog up there you have to clean up after them. I wish the horse people had to do the same thing. I hate coming down a trail and having to look for land mine piles and sometimes you can't avoid it.

  34. #34
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    here is the takeaway; join all the clubs that take care of the trail you ride throughout the year. Get involved and help out. It is not easy to run these clubs and it is not possible to always have things go the way we would like. However we can influence if we work together, so take a moment to look up your local club/s and join.

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    Oh Great, the wannabe politician Skip is here to tell us how we are all wrong and to spin his same old broken record about how he saved mountain biking over the past 12 years... I'm sorry man, but this story gets old, and guilting people into coming out to do trail work has never and will never work. You get people out to trail work out of passion, passion for building new trails and rerouting old crappy ones. And guess what, you won't be doing either of those for a very long time cause you lack the ability to stand up for what the local MTB community wants. Speaking of which lets talk about some of these things that those in the community want and YAMBA refuses to stand up to.
    - XC Race: YAMBA put together a valiant proposal for a great XC Race a number of years ago, but the parks had questions. Rather than responding YAMBA walked away with their tails between there legs. Guess what, you lost the support of the XC Race community with that move.
    - YAMBA refuses to stand up to the County Parks for their ridiculous weather related trail closure policy. YAMBA doesn't do a thing about it, and instead justifies it when no other regional policy is close to as strict (siting look what happened at Lock Raven, wha wha), and guess what you continuously loose support from the community. I constantly hear people say how they hate York County Parks, that's not the type of relationship us as a community should have with the custodians of the park.
    - YAMBA finally was on the brink of making a good move, supporting the local freeride and all mountain community. This is definitely the direction the sport is going and getting some new people who were passionate about digging trail out there is a great thing. And we all know what happened, and guess what, I doubt you will ever be getting those guys support again.
    Time and time again when YAMBA is put up to a challenge it backs off, and you have all but lost local support of the community. You've had so many opportunities to change this but you don't.
    My only hope is that one day a new advocacy group will form in York that will actually listen to it's members. So yes, as was suggested in the post above I will be joining every local club I can, but it most certainly will not be YAMBA....

    So who wants to guess his rebuttal will be, nasty PM demanding to take this conversation off line?

  36. #36
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    You know Will....I just don't get your animosity toward Skip. Whether you agree with how he handles stuff with YAMBA, you cannot disagree that he has spent countless hours in the last 13 years doing trailwork, leading group rides, and advocating for mountain biking in York County Parks. Your contributions over the years had never gone unnoticed either! The short time that my involvement with YAMBA overlapped your's, I was appreciative of your contributions.

    Skip does make a valid point that some of your opinions above are simply uninformed.

    ---XC Race -- YAMBA has proposed an XC race every year for the last 5 years including advocating for it during the meeting that Skip and I had with YCP management and Commissioner Reilly. They listened to our proposals -- including a normal XC race, a time trial at RR, an Enduro either during the day or overnight, and a few other ideas that we proposed. The YCP management simply will not accept the added liability involved in having a race. In addition, they will not agree with the closure of the park during a race event. Is this hypocritical of them given the running races that they allow -- YES! Skip and I both told them exactly that. Unfortunately, that hasn't changed their mind. They are consistent in their opinion on bike races though. They even rejected the 2014 Can Am Police Games mountain bike race. That event would have been a great opportunity to show off our Parks. But, the YCP management and county governmental officials decided against allowing the race in the YCP. It will be held at Codorus State Park instead.

    ---The trail closure policy has been in place for years. It is somewhat annoying and mostly unnecessary given all of the newer sustainable trails at both the Lakes and RR. I agree with you that bikes cause no damage to damp trails at RR or the Lakes. I have seen (and I bet you have also) what damage horses do to wet trails at Spring Valley though. Closing the trails to horses is necessary. Right now YCP refuses to differentiate between horses and bikes. When the trails are closed to one...they are closed to both.

    ---Trail 9A. We built a great trail in November. Many new people showed to assist with the initial work and one trailwork session on November 17, 2012. We were happy to see so many new people contributing. The problem is, some users took it upon themselves to add many, many more features to the trail....some of which were very poorly built. Skip, Kevin, me, and other members of the YAMBA board were unaware of these new features or we would have done something about it. Unfortunately, the parks became aware of them first and strongly objected to the features - especially the multiple rock drops that were man made. I believe the parks overreacted somewhat but again this comes down to liability. I don't know the other guys that have been posting on this thread but many of them agreed -- the trail was somewhat dangerous and they were surprised that anything like this would be built on public land. The trail went too far - it crossed the line that the YCP finds acceptable.

    You note that you want YAMBA or some other group to "stand up" to the YCP. How are we to do this? We have educated them on how a race can be done safely without affecting other users. We have educated them on sustainable trail building. You want a better "advocacy group" that is more effective in persuading the YCP to do what we the bikers want -- races, no closures, and trails with more features. What group are you referring to? Most trailwork sessions have 5 or 6 people at best. 3 or 4 of us attend group rides. We held two time trial events at the Lakes -- one year we had 8 participants and the next it was about 10. A small group of us spent two full days trimming Trail 7 at the Lakes for a time trial for 8 people. That investment of my time wasn't worth it!

    How are we to "advocate" for our point of view with a group of 4 or 5 of us? Out of the thousands of YCP users - if you were YCP management - would you listen to a group of 5 people? In the 4 or 5 years that I have been involved with YAMBA, the mountain bike community in York has been segmented -- you have racers who are mostly too busy training and racing to assist with even one or two trailworks a year. You have the weekend riders who want to ride instead of work on the trails when they have free time. You have the freeride/downhill group who find the trails boring and travel to their desired weekend destinations to partake in that type of riding rather than work on the trails. And then you have the occasional riders who don't care enough about biking to get involved. I don't fault any of those groups for their particular outlook. But, until the mountain bike community speaks with one voice in York - the YCP will never listen to us. The runners can attract 300 people to run a marathon on the rail trail. They can attract 100 or so runners on an August weekend to run around RR. They do nothing to assist with work at the Parks but they have a large group advocating for their events and the parks listens to them.

    I really don't know what else to do to try to engage mountain bikers in York to get involved. At the end of the day, having access (being able to drive 15 mins to RR after work and ride) is more important than any race, trail closures, or one 1/4 mile long downhill oriented trail. Most bikers that I see have the same attitude as you -- an US vs THEM mentality and I don't believe that attitude will succeed in changing anything. We will continue having no races, closed trails, and no new feature rich trails. Until everyone comes together with one voice, nothing will ever change.

    Dan Walko
    York Area Mountain Bike Association
    Club President

  37. #37
    Formerly PaintPeelinPbody
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    Dan, good response.

    I don't run a club. I don't think many (with the exception of BArnold), do.

    There are lots of challenges, lots of politics, lots of members, and lots of public that make running an trail organization, especially one as liability strewn as MTB, in the east.

    That being said, I think it's highly valuable to not only have IMBA clubs work together, but also to share information among IMBA Chapters and non-IMBA organizations. Sure it's great to have national organization, but not every group should have to subscribe to that national organization, and if they don't that shouldn't mean they are left out of the community of organizations.

    I just wanted to open the dialogue, which I think has been done sufficiently. Thanks.
    GIS/GPS Pro using ArcFM for Utility Mapping - Always willing to connect with other MTBers in the industry.

  38. #38
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    I hope everyone got their extra large popcorn with extra butter on it!

    First off, my initial post was never directed towards you Pheller. Sorry you took offense to it. You seem to have a passion for mountain biking as well as a level head on your shoulders. Thank you for your comments regarding this situation.

    Brian - you hit the nail on the head with you reply! Thanks!

    Dan - you said everything that needed to be said regarding Will's temper tantrum.

    I will add one observation though regarding YAMBA losing the XC racers support. When the Parks denied our request for hosting a XC race at Rocky Ridge, I knew there were local mountain bikers who were hurt that the Parks had turned their backs on YAMBA and denied us having a MTB race. Many people wanted us to use our "power" and go back to the Parks and fight for this because of all of the volunteer hours we had contributed. Sometimes in life though, No means "No".

    So here's my observation....If the local XC racing community have turned their backs on YAMBA because we chose not to fight the Park's decision, isn't the racing community doing the exact same thing they claimed the Parks did to YAMBA in the first place? "Perhaps people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....". Instead they should seek to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem.

    In closing and to bring this forum thread to a final close, if there is anyone out there who would like to discuss the closure of Trail 9A at Rocky Ridge or has questions or concerns about YAMBA and our trail advocacy efforts here within the York County Parks, please feel free to email me at Skipxcmtbr@hotmail.com

    Keep the rubber side down,

    Skip

  39. #39
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    Man...this is better than a good old Wissahickon thread rant/counter-rant. In the vein of that old martial arts saying: there is no try, you either do or do not do. Well you either build or do not build. Those that don't build should shut the f#ck up. Yeah everyone has a right to an opinion; not really, in mtbing you need to earn it or you're just some flaming a$$ hole on the Internet.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockymountainskip View Post
    I hope everyone got their extra large popcorn with extra butter on it!

    First off, my initial post was never directed towards you Pheller. Sorry you took offense to it. You seem to have a passion for mountain biking as well as a level head on your shoulders. Thank you for your comments regarding this situation.

    Brian - you hit the nail on the head with you reply! Thanks!

    Dan - you said everything that needed to be said regarding Will's temper tantrum.

    I will add one observation though regarding YAMBA losing the XC racers support. When the Parks denied our request for hosting a XC race at Rocky Ridge, I knew there were local mountain bikers who were hurt that the Parks had turned their backs on YAMBA and denied us having a MTB race. Many people wanted us to use our "power" and go back to the Parks and fight for this because of all of the volunteer hours we had contributed. Sometimes in life though, No means "No".

    So here's my observation....If the local XC racing community have turned their backs on YAMBA because we chose not to fight the Park's decision, isn't the racing community doing the exact same thing they claimed the Parks did to YAMBA in the first place? "Perhaps people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....". Instead they should seek to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem.

    In closing and to bring this forum thread to a final close, if there is anyone out there who would like to discuss the closure of Trail 9A at Rocky Ridge or has questions or concerns about YAMBA and our trail advocacy efforts here within the York County Parks, please feel free to email me at Skipxcmtbr@hotmail.com

    Keep the rubber side down,

    Skip
    I thought this thread had already run its course and ended, since no one had posted in 3 weeks.
    Last edited by Bigrocks; 03-23-2014 at 07:28 AM.

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