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  1. #1
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    July 2013 Rocky Ridge Trail 9A "Bootleg" Closed

    Curious as to why York County Parks has decided to close "Bootleg" at Rocky Ridge County Park. Did someone get hurt? Were their concerns of safety?
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  2. #2
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    Yamba Forums ? View topic - Bootleg/Trail 9A Closed


    I would think that the email would be available to the public, since it involved the county government.

  3. #3
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    Well it was a liability issue waiting to happen imo. I am surprised it lasted as long as it did.

  4. #4
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    There are trails like that on public lands all over the USA, some of which are far more technical, that were built by IMBA.
    Last edited by Bigrocks; 07-18-2013 at 09:34 AM.

  5. #5
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    York County Department of Parks and Recreation
    Administrative Headquarters: 400 Mundis Race Road, York, PA 17406-9721

    Nixon County Park Nature Center
    5922 Nixon Drive
    York, Pa 17403-967
    717-428-1961

    Phone: 717-840-7440
    Fax: 717-840-7403
    E-mail: parks@york-county.org
    Website: Parks & Recreation

    July 1, 2013
    To: Rocky Ridge Mountain Bikers:
    Trail 9A was laid out by Kevin Westover (YAMBA) and Mike Fobes, Manager of Natural Resources-York County Parks Department in the winter of 2011-2012. The original trail 9A was in need of a reroute due to poor design of years ago. The old trail had steep slopes which caused severe erosion and was very difficult to navigate by foot, bike or horseback. Kevin, speaking on behalf of YAMBA, agreed to build the new multi-use trail to the same standards as other single track trails in the park system.

    The first issue we have with the new 9A trail, is the YAMBA/Parks trail layout had it stopping at the intersection of trail #3. Someone continued building the trail past the intersection and looping it back to trail #3, without permission from the parks department. The grade of that illegal section of trail is well beyond what YAMBA or IMBA recommends for trail building and was not approved by the parks department. We simply cannot allow people to build trails anywhere they want in the park.
    At this time, we know YAMBA volunteers built the approved trail. We do not know if they are responsible for the added section of trail, jumps, ramps or the banked turns. Whoever built those devices did so without park permission and we consider the “spoil holes” & trail devices as destruction of parks property. These illegal devices create a large county liability issue for those that attempt to ride the trail or the innocent trail user who happens to be hiking or riding a horse on the trail.

    The York County Parks Department realizes this trail is unsafe for all users, whether they are hikers, bikers or horseback riders. Past experience tells us the removed devices would “show up” again if the trail remains open. So the devices will be removed and the trail will be permanently closed. We will continue to prohibit man-made hazardous devices such as those found on trail 9A in the park system. Any person found building devices on park trails are in violation of park regulations.

    We will continue to offer safe trails not only for mountain bikers, but to all our multi-use trail users. Safety of all trail users can only occur when we consider all types of trail users when building/improving a trail instead of focusing on one user group.
    Sincerely
    Tammy Klunk
    Parks Director

    Mike Fobes
    Manager of Natural Resources

    717-428-1961
    E-mail: parks@york-county.org
    Website: Parks & Recreation
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  6. #6
    247
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    That Sucks!! These Rogue trail Clowns need to go somewhere where ONLY they can ride and build!!--This same crap has been happening on PhillyMTBR for years at THE WISS---(it was even the president, or something like that??)

    These Clowns mess things up for everyone!!!!!

  7. #7
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    I don't think it was a case where they were intentionally building stuff they knew was unapproved. It was probably a case of whisper down the lane. One guy gets permission to build a trail, tells another guy he has permission to build a trail, another guy builds a small jump hearing that they've got permission to build a trail, and before long you've got guys building drops and berms because they heard someone got permission to build a trail.

    My feeling is that if your the "lead" trail builder you've got keep your people under control AND AND AND urge the land manager/owner to walk the trail frequently. This frequent visit can give you feedback often and early about the conditions and design they like and don't like.

    Meanwhile, you've got spread that feedback around to fellow builders that "hey, they don't like these jumps at all, stop building them or the whole trail will get closed."

    I personally know people who put time and effort into this trail under the impression that it was "OK'ed" by the park administrators.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  8. #8
    247
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    So here is my Next Question:

    Do you think 'Closing the trail' will really stop those who rode it (from still riding it..)

    I am sure if I am there tomorrow I will still see people riding that trail!?!?

  9. #9
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    Yes and no.

    Parks Maintenance folks are horrible at doing trail maintenance and trail building, but they seem very good at limiting access to trails they view as a liability. All the jumps and berms will be flattened, they'll probably place boulders or logs at the beginning and ends, and they'll scatter all the rocks that were used as ramps onto the drops.

    At least thats what I'd do if I didn't want people to ride it.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  10. #10
    247
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    Well if they make it safer at those spots (why not do that AND then keep the trail open??) I am sure those jumps are just at certain spots (just burn them down or blow them up!!)----but keep the trail open...

    I am sure these guys do these things during the daytime (and have these tools and wood in their trucks)---Wonder why Park Rangers (who just chill in the office all day)--don't just put up a camera in the parking lot (like they DONT already have one!?!?)---

    --and just catch these guys when they start building ILLEGAL trail features??? I Always wondered that?? --OR better yet Actually ride those trails twice a day and see what is going on... I have ridden trails for 5 years now and have NEVER seen park rangers out on any trails??? I Always though 'why are not folks really getting robbed and hurt on trails??---Because there are No Cameras and Usually No cell reception..)---that is why I AM ALWAYS prepared for foolish folks out there!! but that is me!! when I first started biking 4 seasons ago I had seen this story of this fool out in Cali. who attacked people with bats and machete's (a few times!!)---so even with stray dogs you had better be ready to NOT get hurt (but that is just me)--I have not once even gotten but by a dog (chased, but then I got aggressive towards them... and they backed off.) But almost everyone I have met riding on trails has been bit by a dog.....

  11. #11
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    I was up the other day and they made sure it is not rideable. I had rode the trail and certain sections imo were a bit much and were not useable by anyone other then the people who built it. They claimed there were ride arounds near some of the more difficult areas and there really wasn't. There was actually a couple areas pretty tore up due to hard braking just so they could make a corner and slow down from the speed they were running.
    While I commend the group for working with County Parks office and doing different trail maintenance this trail was a bad idea from the beginning. YAMBA has done some great things at RR, but 9A was not a trail that could be used by everyone. It was a liability for the Parks imo.

  12. #12
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    My feeling is that if a trail cannot be ridden up, it should not be built on public land. This would include stunts and jumps.

    Discussion from back in June on Bootleg Yamba Forums • View topic - insane trail 9a?
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    My feeling is that if a trail cannot be ridden up, it should not be built on public land. This would include stunts and jumps.
    [/url]
    I agree with this statement and you definitely could not ride up this trail at all. This was how I initially found it from the bottom of it. I tried to ride down it a few times and it was not fun for me at all. At that point it was more about seeing what they built and more or less just smh...

  14. #14
    247
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    My feeling is that if a trail cannot be ridden up, it should not be built on public land. This would include stunts and jumps
    Anyone have a video of this?? I have yet to see a hill I cannot climb!!

    But with the stunts and Jumps (I just don't do)---I ride solo 99.99% of the time and don't want to endo (over the bars or break something unnecessary aside from just straight riding dirt..)

    I have only seen one hill that is too crazy to ride up (Neshaminy, Pa.)--there are a lot of jumps there also (and next to a high school) that has a mountain biking class I heard...

  15. #15
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    I was up there tonight and someone has already tried to move all the brush they had at the trail head at the top of the trail. The sign that was there was tore down. This type of stuff is even worse then building the rogue trail. I don't want to see the whole place shut down to riding because of the piss poor decisions of others since they did not get their way.

    247, there are sections of that trail that are not rideable in the uphil direction. I was trying to ride up it when I found out what it was about. If you ride the whole thing from the bottom to the top I would love to see it!

  16. #16
    247
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    It should be pretty easy to catch these guys (riding and building these spots)---again, just hide out or put up a camera.. Then issue Fines!!--take them to court for Trespassing.. They will stop building and riding if that happens!!

    --Also my calves have not seen a hill I cannot conquer.. I have ridden my bike up Inclines most folks can't walk (like at THE WISS in Philly..)

    --also I am at a weird angle holding my computer when I just took this pic..

    --BUT I AM PISSED!!--Trail 9 I did not do yet there.. Been there Twice now also..

    --But I did ride Trail 7 (it is Insane at that part, I Loved it there)--right where it ends there were 2 guys and a girl hanging out there and the one guy said he jumped over the Boulder to the other side TWICE.. He was going to do it again (but the girl said he almost fell the second time...)--I said it was not worth it.. But I was going to give them $10 for a 6-pack if he made it (I was gonna get it on video on my phone..)--Yes, I am a 'born character myself'....

    The first time I rode trail 5/6 twice (loved that part the first time I went a month ago)--even went between trail that connects 5a-5b (tight singletrack there that had an incline at the end)-----rode it down 'flying' the first time (then rode it back up)--then rode trail 6 past the playground?? area there..

    That place is like taking THE WISS in Philly, adding 5 miles and Doubling the rocks (and losing 90% of the riders at Fairmount park)----I love that place!!---can't get there enough to ride!?!?!?

    --If it opens back up I will PM you and ride that part with you (in case I fall it is nice to have some help!!)

    Attachment 817454

  17. #17
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    247, sounds from your description you mainly rode the front half of the park and nothing in the back. Not sure where you are from, but let me know next time you are coming to RR and we can hook up. I'm only about 8 mins from there and ride it a lot and still am finding new things to ride.
    FYI, 9 is a completely different trail and is not closed, just 9A that was made purely as a downhill course.

  18. #18
    247
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    cool, I almost had 1/2 a chance to ride there this morning. Now it will be 2-3 weeks until I can get back to York. But Yeah, I have been all around the outside (just been having fun from those 2 parking lots when you come in)--and riding around (and through the trails)--though on I did run into some Dead-ends (like on trail 6 I remember.) Then I was talking to this guy from Australia (older guy) but had a sweet Niner MDO? (the carbon fully)--and he gave me a run down of that trail (and Lake Redman?)

    p.s. Now I can take the picture off (just put it on to show you I 'Rides me some Climbs!!!)---

  19. #19
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    I'd urge folks to let it go and not push keeping that trail open. The insurance co's are ultimately the ones calling the shots (yeah I know it's f'd up) and would love to remove the "risk" of allowing bikes in the parks entirely. I really would hate to see that happen.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PdlPwr View Post
    I'd urge folks to let it go and not push keeping that trail open. The insurance co's are ultimately the ones calling the shots (yeah I know it's f'd up) and would love to remove the "risk" of allowing bikes in the parks entirely. I really would hate to see that happen.
    Well someone is physically not letting the trail alone. I was up again today and it appears more brush from the upper trail head is gone now then when I was there Friday. Someone is being a complete idiot about this imo.

  21. #21
    247
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    Well here is what I see happening, theses fools are gonna' ride regardless!

    Unless they put the 'wall of China' around the trail (putting signs, or blocking entrances at Trailheads do not work)---so you will have 99% of the public Not riding here (if they hear bikers are forbidden)--but these fools are still gonna ride it (and will probably even out up different trail features)--

    Common sense would have been to BE OUT THERE the last 3 days waiting for them!! Guess the Parks Dept. could care less (just give them an excuse to get the ignorant bikers gone completely......) Glad I don't live in York now...

  22. #22
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    247,

    RELAX man...

    Yes that parks could do a better job, but so could the riders. My interest in starting this thread was to spread the word about the issues concerning the trail and Rocky Ridge as a whole. I've also been talking with some of the folks who helped build the trail over there and they are avoiding Rocky Ridge as a whole. They don't want any of their gang to be responsible for closing down the park to MTB even if they are riding DH bikes on trails besides those they built.

    So there are responsible DH riders out there, but we as a community have to RELAX and have a laid back conversation with other riders about the state of trails in our public parks.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  23. #23
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    Here is the YAMBA response to the Trail 9A closure which we posted on yamba.org and the YAMBA FB page today:

    Most of you are probably aware of the recent trail closure of “9A” at Rocky Ridge. We wanted to provide everyone with an update after Dan Walko and Skip Durgin met recently with Commissioner Reily, Parks Director Tammy Klunk and Parks Land Manager Mike Fobes.

    The problem is twofold which only lends to the complexity of this unfortunate situation. First, there appears to have been a miscommunication between the Parks and YAMBA as to what extent natural features could be incorporated into this trail. YAMBA was under the impression after we initially met with the Parks last year, that we could incorporate natural occurring rock features that fell within the trail corridor for those riders that like to ride over such features. Unfortunately, due to liability concerns from York County itself, these features that can be used as ramps and jumps are not allowed within the York County Parks. Furthermore, the Parks have now officially closed Trail 9A and there are no plans to re-open it.

    Second, after our initial Trail work in November of 2012 to cut in this trail, a multitude of additional work has been done to Trail 9A without YAMBA’s knowledge or approval. The majority of this work appears to have been done recently with large amounts of dirt being excavated to build jumps and additional berms were built in locations that were unnecessary. The Parks consider this destruction of Park property which is a citable offense. Though it appears no citations are going to be issued at this time, we want everyone to understand the severity of this situation and that any kind of illegal trail building in the future will not be tolerated and citations will be issued (this also includes if anyone attempts to re-open Trail# 9A).

    Moving forward, YAMBA will still be partnering with the York County Parks to help maintain existing trails and educating all trail users on safe and sustainable multi-use trails. At the request of the Parks Department, for the time being we will not be engaging in the construction of any new trails.

    Additionally, as a result of this situation Kevin Westover has decided to step down as Trail Advocacy Coordinator. This is very unfortunate that this situation has resulted in this, but Kevin still plans to help out the club with administrating our YAMBA website. We would like to express our sincere Thanks to Kevin for the four years he has volunteered for the club in this capacity and all of the fantastic trails that have come to fruition as a result of his creative trail building talents. Thanks for everything Kevin!

    In needing a Trail Advocacy Coordinator, Skip Durgin has elected to take on this open position so YAMBA can continue on with its mission of the preservation of the Trail systems within the York County Parks.

    In closing, we would like to apologize to the volunteers that put time and sweat equity into the authorized portion of this trail project. In the past 12+ years, YAMBA has built a multitude of trails within the York County Parks and has never had any problems or issues of this kind. We are very proud of all of the trails that we have built and hope that somewhere down the road when the trust factor is re-established with the Parks that we can continue with our trail building efforts.

    Moving forward, all questions, concerns and complaints regarding any Trails within the Parks should be directed towards Skip Durgin and he will in turn take these matters up with the Parks Management directly.

    Thanks for your patience and understanding as we work through this problem. We are confident that we will become a stronger and better club because of it.

    See you on the trails,

    The YAMBA Trail Advocacy Committee

  24. #24
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    That's a shame about Kevin, but I don't blame him. It was a thankless job, always caught in the middle of different interests.

    Thanks for all your hard work, Kevin, especially on Rusty Chair!

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    Agreed, many thanks to Kevin for his hard work. Mostly due to him MTBers in our area now get to enjoy: Rusty Chair, Broken Arrow, Bipolar, Old Man Trail, and Copper Head. All five or which are some of the best trails in York parks.
    It's a real slap in the face that there won't be any new trails for the foreseeable future. I hope YAMBA becomes an IMBA chapter sooner than later so they can get better guidance on these sorts of issues in the future...

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