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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Have you seen these guys?

    here is excerpt from township email - please contact them if you have any further info....

    Below is some updated information about incidents at the Harmony Hill NA (Sonoco). The below reports and attached picture give a little more information. I’m still encouraging the hunters (and anyone for that matter) to continue to give us as much information as possible. I have not yet received a map that illustrates areas where hunting stands are located. The days/times listed below may be helpful as you schedule “patrol” rides. Let me know if you have questions. I’ll continue to forward information as I receive it.



    Location: bottom trail on the Sonoco, where the trail is clearly marked closed and there are still a lot of bikers and people just walking this trail! Then about half a mile back there is a trail that splits off that trail that was made by a four wheeler or something and they started walking and riding this trail down to the creek bottom right near 322 and this trail comes down right near my stand. [The reference here is to the E Branch Brandywine Trail corridor, which is really impossible to close. The hunter is referring to a trail that connects the E Branch Brandywine Trail corridor to the Creek)
    Time/Day: I have had people there every sat. between 2 and 5 pm. and constantly on the main trail that is closed all day long!

    Description: one guy riding a bike with a bright yellow jersey with a # 8 on the back



    Location: Unknown
    Time/Day: Friday Oct 5 4:00 pm

    Description: Two men; medium build; one blue full suspension bike; one rider with a spring green helmet; one rider with a silver helmet; both wearing Camelbaks, gloves, and mountain bike shorts. (Picture attached)



    Location: Lower trail (Brandywine Corridor)
    Time/Day: Saturday Oct 13

    Description: Two bikers



    Misc. General Comments

    Bikers and hikers on trails marked as closed
    Obnoxious yelling and screaming (one biker actually got off of his bike only 65 yards from one of our hunters and picked his bike up over his head and yelled like Tarzan)
    Bikers stopping and talking on the trails while in plain sight of a hunter
    Bikers riding through the woods well off any marked trail in hopes of seeing deer, as they put it to one of the hunters




    Mandie Cantlin, Assistant Manager

    East Bradford Township

    666 Copeland School Road

    West Chester, PA 19380

    Phone (610) 436-5108
    Last edited by shadowflag; 11-17-2007 at 09:22 AM.

  2. #2
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    Natural selection may take care of those two, if they are cruising through the woods during hunting season-some of those guys blast at anything that moves.

    Just an observation from the flip side, what kind of dumb ass hunter is hunting in an area with so much traffic - bikers and walkers? Not a whole lot of deer hanging around with a bunch of folks bashing through the woods. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

  3. #3
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    LOL at yelling like Tarzan!!!!!!

  4. #4
    NEPMCPMBA President
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    one biker actually got off of his bike only 65 yards from one of our hunters and picked his bike up over his head and yelled like Tarzan
    That's not exactly "close" to a hunter.... it's over a half football field away! Not that I condone screaming like a moron, but I really think what you have here is a case of crybaby hunters who are losing their exclusivity.

    While I agree riding on a closed trail is a no-no, it's not exactly the crime of the century, you know?

    PS. none of those people were me... I'd be described as "a man who looked like he had no business being on a vehicle with 4 wheels, let alone 2, as he routinely would fall over his handlebars when encountering even the smallest pebble"

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyDean
    That's not exactly "close" to a hunter.... it's over a half football field away! Not that I condone screaming like a moron, but I really think what you have here is a case of crybaby hunters who are losing their exclusivity.

    While I agree riding on a closed trail is a no-no, it's not exactly the crime of the century, you know?

    PS. none of those people were me... I'd be described as "a man who looked like he had no business being on a vehicle with 4 wheels, let alone 2, as he routinely would fall over his handlebars when encountering even the smallest pebble"
    Yeah, when I first read the title, all I could think of was a bunch of thugs caught vandalizing some trails or spraying graffiti or something like that.

    I'm originally from Erie and posted alot on a website called Fisherie.com, and loved to hear some of the fishermen/hunters cry about how fast bikers ride through the woods. The gamelands laws that came about in the earlier 2000's were a big loss for us.

  6. #6
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    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by VWMTBScott

    loved to hear some of the fishermen/hunters cry about how fast bikers ride through the woods. The gamelands laws that came about in the earlier 2000's were a big loss for us.

    It's that type of mentality that contributed to our loss

  7. #7
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    More biking, less hunting..... Go to Acme and but a steak!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARP
    More biking, less hunting..... Go to Acme and but a steak!
    In case you haven't been paying attention, the opposite is happening.
    .
    Raspberries, nature's poison ivy bait. (Formerly, 'Stops to eat the raspberries.')

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmojo
    In case you haven't been paying attention, the opposite is happening.
    I've been paying attention- hunters are in a decline and it poses a serious problem for wildlife managers (see this months National Geographic). There is an excellent article on hunting, wildlife mangement and conservation. "Outside" also has a good article on the issue (had the flu, so caught up on some periodicals).

    One of the biggest reasons we lose to hunters is that they have long established well funded organizations with powerful political lobbies. Hunters also generate revenue for the state through license sales.

    Unfortunately, getting mountain bikers together on an issue is like hearding cats. IMBA is very young organization, compartively speaking; and if you look at your local advocacy in PA, those organizations are even newer. Those guys are doing good work putting us in a favorable light to the powers that be, but if you look at the dollars availabe to fight; it's David v. Goliath.

    For the most part, Hunter's and bikers should never be in direct conflict based on common sense and self preservation- during big game season, don't ride except on Sundays, we have the rest of the year to rip it up any day we feel like it.

    Also, we most likely aren't going to chage a hunter's mind that we're sniveling city slicker yuppies, wrapped in his girlfriends aerobic outfit, with too much disposable income, no knowledge of woodsmanship and all things manly. But if we show the guy respect in our interactions, at least it won't be confirmed in his mind.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

  10. #10
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by justriding
    I've been paying attention- hunters are in a decline and it poses a serious problem for wildlife managers (see this months National Geographic). There is an excellent article on hunting, wildlife mangement and conservation. "Outside" also has a good article on the issue (had the flu, so caught up on some periodicals).

    One of the biggest reasons we lose to hunters is that they have long established well funded organizations with powerful political lobbies. Hunters also generate revenue for the state through license sales.

    Unfortunately, getting mountain bikers together on an issue is like hearding cats. IMBA is very young organization, compartively speaking; and if you look at your local advocacy in PA, those organizations are even newer. Those guys are doing good work putting us in a favorable light to the powers that be, but if you look at the dollars availabe to fight; it's David v. Goliath.

    For the most part, Hunter's and bikers should never be in direct conflict based on common sense and self preservation- during big game season, don't ride except on Sundays, we have the rest of the year to rip it up any day we feel like it.

    Also, we most likely aren't going to chage a hunter's mind that we're sniveling city slicker yuppies, wrapped in his girlfriends aerobic outfit, with too much disposable income, no knowledge of woodsmanship and all things manly. But if we show the guy respect in our interactions, at least it won't be confirmed in his mind.
    Nicely put!

    It's all about Respect! I have worked with many hunters who taught me a lot about the Woods. They in turn are often very satisfied to have single track trails built to allow easier access and to remove their kill.
    But, when it's time for them to enjoy their sport the last thing they want to see after spending time to spot a Deer or call in a Turkey is a Mt Biker riding through spoiling the whole process for them.
    Just think if we couldn't ride most of the year then we were allowed to ride for a few months out of the year! We would all be lined up on the opening day of Mt Biking ready to rip it up and use our new gear. All of a sudden along comes a hunter and begins shooting into the woods telling us he is just practicing. Kind of his "RIDING"
    So use common sense along with respect... There is plenty of off time during hunting season to Maintain, upgrade, buy new parts, for your bike. Spin indoors, ride Rail/Trails or other Non hunting areas, post on MTBR, or just take a break...Maybe even go hunting!

  11. #11
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    Well put...

    We need more people like NEPMTBA and justriding in this world. I agree with them both. If you feel that you must ride during hunting season try to ride on day when the hunters aren't there, like Sunday. Also, most hunting ends around noon every day (please correct me if I'm wrong), so just hold off your ride until after that. Or switch you weeknight rides to night rides in the fall. They are tons of fun. There are many options we can choose to make this work out. We have to remember that everyone has the right to do their activity on the land, and IMO since hunters can only hunt during certain times of the year, they should get priority during those times. Also, just be nice... acting like an ass is never a good thing.

    I am quite sure I just reiterated what has been said thousands upon thousands of times...

    Ride on!
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAmtbiker
    Also, most hunting ends around noon every day (please correct me if I'm wrong), so just hold off your ride until after that.
    Sun up to Sun down...........

  13. #13
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    Turkey hunting ends at noon in the Spring
    Believe it or not I am an avid Mountain Biker who....OMG....hunts too!

  14. #14
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    The moment hunters stop trespassing on private property with deadly weapons is the moment I will lend credibility to the concerns of the hunting community about other land users on 'their' land. This is a two way street, and yes, it is about respect from BOTH sides. Until then, my 'game' camera will be pointed at hunters trespassing on private land (my wife's grandparents are farmers) who are poaching by hunting on land where they have posted no hunting/trespassing notices.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dankilling
    The moment hunters stop trespassing on private property with deadly weapons is the moment I will lend credibility to the concerns of the hunting community about other land users on 'their' land. This is a two way street, and yes, it is about respect from BOTH sides. Until then, my 'game' camera will be pointed at hunters trespassing on private land (my wife's grandparents are farmers) who are poaching by hunting on land where they have posted no hunting/trespassing notices.
    Not trying to be a "dick" and you probally won't admit to this question:

    All the places you ride you have permission?

    Lot's of Mt. bikers ride everywhere. Would you allow that on your private land?.. Mt bikers are not alone in the private thing, yes were not firing weapons..... but!

    I think it's not about the group as a "WHOLE" yet the individauals who trespass be they Hunters or Mt Bikers...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    Not trying to be a "dick" and you probally won't admit to this question:

    All the places you ride you have permission?

    Lot's of Mt. bikers ride everywhere. Would you allow that on your private land?.. Mt bikers are not alone in the private thing, yes were not firing weapons..... but!

    I think it's not about the group as a "WHOLE" yet the individauals who trespass be they Hunters or Mt Bikers...
    Ill bite- And I dont take it as a 'dick' argument because I would make the same kind of argument. Have I always ridden legal trails- I do my best, but I am sure I have been places I probably should not have been. My point here is if I am being kicked off land because another group is making rules around access without regard to my input or activity, then they turn around and do exactly the action they are prohibiting me from, then I dont think either party has a leg to stand on. That said, I can guarantee any questionable trails I have ridden on WERE legal before the PGC closed land for bogus reasons. If they expect everyone to follow their rules, why do they turn a blind eye to when their constituents arent following the rules either? And yes, I would allow unarmed access to my land for recreational use if I had a significant enough plot to make it worth offering as long as the activity was not destructive.

  17. #17
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    First off, if you ride on 'game lands' or 'WMA's' then HUNTERS paid for those lands, not mountain bikers. IMBA and other mtb groups should be friendly with hunting groups as 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend.' The hippee, tree hugging, hikers are trying to get all of us thrown off of public land (e.g. wilderness areas). I find it hard to believe there aren't alternate places for mtb's to go during hunting season. I ride and I hunt and I'm finding it's becoming more difficult to find land to do either. Sure, some hunters poach just like some mtb's, but the majority of hunters are good people, just like mtb's. Hunter numbers are decling, in part, because its more difficult to find land to hunt. Mtb's will be next if they don't choose their battles carefully.
    You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake

  18. #18
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    Good job! I do think we have hijacked this post... I appologise for that...

    Edited to continue on new post State Game Land Discussion.

    Please use new post to continue Game Land discussion

    click here http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=357489

    Thanks

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    So where was the PGC out of order kicking us off their land? Show me where it says it "was" legal to ride a Mt bike in game lands! We have no input! Mt biking is not "hunting" or "preservation of land" Were not "game" or "food" for game so how do you justify we belonged there in the first place, because we rode there for years gives us the right to be accepted? They did give us designated routes. I use them even if they are non connected dead ended trails.

    Second question then Why isn't your land already open to Mt bikers? They are unarmed, but nondestructive is in the eye of the beholder, so I can't discern your take on that.

    This is exactly why Mt Bikers won't gain any ground. You as well as others won't take "No" for an answer, and further more you show no respect for the other group. If you allowed hunters on your property and set rules that they are to watch for poaching, dumping, suspicious activities you will start to gain respect in the hunting community! Legal Hunters don't like poachers either. We have the same agreement with the Nature Conservancy to watch for dumping, illegal hunting, and other non productive activities, even Mt Bikers being disrespectful. Hunters will do as we do also.

    We were just given permission to develop trails on land from the Nature Conservancy. I went to the meeting met with hunters as well as all forms of users, non motorized. Hunters asked me what kind of trail I was going to build. I didn't say A 'Mt Bike trail" It is a multi use trail that I feel will allow deer to use as well as the hunters to aid in the removal of their kill via a groomed, connected trail system. They stepped back. I gave them no fight! They were shocked I could see it! So I ask you what impression did I leave them with? Would they rather drag deer out through scrub oak, basically making it impossible to preserve any chance of having their deer mounted if they so wish or a groomed trail? Hum...Let's see Mt Biker's Design, build, and maintain a trail system that hunters get to use with no effort on their part. I will let you know how many show up on our workday to help us! I willing to bet they show! Remember this land is not governed under state rules. We are allowed to ride there all year, but I bet the local Mt Bikers will respect the hunting going on there certain times a year. Win... Win... situation! Keep watching as we will have the first Hunting/Mt Biking club in the state of PA!

    Nice discussing this important matter with you! I respect your opinions.
    I dont disagree with anything you have posted here, but lets make sure things are clear.
    1- PGC Lands were previously open for recreational use- I think that covers MTB.
    2- Yes, the family (not MY) land does allow locals in the treelines for hiking/camping/etc. Problem is, there's not much mileage to be had on 80 acres of crops with no connecting trails between farms.
    3- Yes, I personally was involved in the successful lobby and opening of the Salisbury trails in the Lehigh Valley. You should check them out someday, Dave (Guitarswheelies) and crew have done an outstanding job on trail design, construction, and maintenance for this trailsystem. The township and county have both commented on the success of the park, however, even though hunting is not permitted, we still had several unclaimed kills of deer in the park this year.
    4- PGC gains roughly 50% of their revenue from licenses. Thats not 100%, so no one can claim licenses paid for the land outright. Furthermore, are there any statistics around PGC land acquisition that demonstrate the difference between land that was donated or not purchased at fair market value (vs. $1/acre type deals?) This land was also not paid for by licenses.
    5- Hunting is allowed on non-gameland property such as state forests. That land is not purchased, owned, or otherwise controlled by PGC, and yet we are expected to stay out of legal trailsystems to 'respect' the hunters who choose to hunt there? When is it appropriate for hunters to stay out of areas with trailsystems out of 'respect' for other recreationalists?

    I could go on, but I also want to make sure this is stated as well- I am not anti-hunting, I am simply asking to be afforded the same rights as another recreational use group. If the flag is being waved that "hunting licenses paid for the land" and that is in fact true, that is fine. Then any area that is not officially 'paid' for or was donated should be available for other use. Also, that means that there should be no hunting on non-gamelands, because that land was also not 'paid' for through licenses. No one group should dominate access to land the way the PGC does, and not be held accountable.

    This discussion comes up about 10 times a year here...it has been argued before, and will be argued again. And yes, if the MTB community cant come together in a meaningful way, then we have no leverage, so all we can do is vent in forums just like this one.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    Nicely put!

    It's all about Respect! I have worked with many hunters who taught me a lot about the Woods. They in turn are often very satisfied to have single track trails built to allow easier access and to remove their kill.
    But, when it's time for them to enjoy their sport the last thing they want to see after spending time to spot a Deer or call in a Turkey is a Mt Biker riding through spoiling the whole process for them.
    Just think if we couldn't ride most of the year then we were allowed to ride for a few months out of the year! We would all be lined up on the opening day of Mt Biking ready to rip it up and use our new gear. All of a sudden along comes a hunter and begins shooting into the woods telling us he is just practicing. Kind of his "RIDING"
    So use common sense along with respect... There is plenty of off time during hunting season to Maintain, upgrade, buy new parts, for your bike. Spin indoors, ride Rail/Trails or other Non hunting areas, post on MTBR, or just take a break...Maybe even go hunting!

    well put as usual. Too bad a few ass hats cant have some consideration for other people and decide to ruin anothers day in the woods without remorse. Some people just deserve a beatdown.
    Chance favors the prepared mind

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dankilling
    I dont disagree with anything you have posted here, but lets make sure things are clear.
    1- PGC Lands were previously open for recreational use- I think that covers MTB.
    2- Yes, the family (not MY) land does allow locals in the treelines for hiking/camping/etc. Problem is, there's not much mileage to be had on 80 acres of crops with no connecting trails between farms.
    3- Yes, I personally was involved in the successful lobby and opening of the Salisbury trails in the Lehigh Valley. You should check them out someday, Dave (Guitarswheelies) and crew have done an outstanding job on trail design, construction, and maintenance for this trailsystem. The township and county have both commented on the success of the park, however, even though hunting is not permitted, we still had several unclaimed kills of deer in the park this year.
    4- PGC gains roughly 50% of their revenue from licenses. Thats not 100%, so no one can claim licenses paid for the land outright. Furthermore, are there any statistics around PGC land acquisition that demonstrate the difference between land that was donated or not purchased at fair market value (vs. $1/acre type deals?) This land was also not paid for by licenses.
    5- Hunting is allowed on non-gameland property such as state forests. That land is not purchased, owned, or otherwise controlled by PGC, and yet we are expected to stay out of legal trailsystems to 'respect' the hunters who choose to hunt there? When is it appropriate for hunters to stay out of areas with trailsystems out of 'respect' for other recreationalists?

    I could go on, but I also want to make sure this is stated as well- I am not anti-hunting, I am simply asking to be afforded the same rights as another recreational use group. If the flag is being waved that "hunting licenses paid for the land" and that is in fact true, that is fine. Then any area that is not officially 'paid' for or was donated should be available for other use. Also, that means that there should be no hunting on non-gamelands, because that land was also not 'paid' for through licenses. No one group should dominate access to land the way the PGC does, and not be held accountable.
    i never heard someone say dont ride in a state forest. If there is a trail and you hunt on it you should expect to see those other users. So ride away in a state forest or park with an existing trail system.

    why would you want to ride in a gamelands during rifle season? Why would you want to actively destroy another groups limited time to enjoy their sport b/c that is what you do when you tromp through a game lands. Maybe it would just be easier to not have this land like many other states and then nobody but the landowner could use it. I have never had a hunter actively try to destroy my riding experience.

    if you want to be afforded the same rights as other user groups then hunters should be able to hunt anywhere you can ride, that includes city parks, with any weapon they want b/c you dont have a restriction on the bike you can use. They should also be able to hunt year round, everyday of the week, and at night with lights.

    or

    you could be restricted to the kind of bike you use depending on the location of the trail. you wouldnt be able to ride in a safety zone. you will only be able to ride a few select months out of the year, you will pay to ride each year to help support your sport, you will not be able to ride on sundays, and hunters will be free to ruin your ride, and no night riding.

    See if you were subjected to their rules and regulations you wouldnt even bike anymore. It would be such a pain in the ass you would quit and go golfing. To argue that they have it better than you is the most ridiculous arguement i have ever heard.

    my point is there are restrictions for a reason. I am all for trails in game lands. They should also be closed during any hunting season. Violators should receive huge fines B/c hiking, biking, and horses are not condusive to trail usage during hunting season.
    Chance favors the prepared mind

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by defcon4
    i never heard someone say dont ride in a state forest. If there is a trail and you hunt on it you should expect to see those other users. So ride away in a state forest or park with an existing trail system.

    why would you want to ride in a gamelands during rifle season? Why would you want to actively destroy another groups limited time to enjoy their sport b/c that is what you do when you tromp through a game lands. Maybe it would just be easier to not have this land like many other states and then nobody but the landowner could use it. I have never had a hunter actively try to destroy my riding experience.

    if you want to be afforded the same rights as other user groups then hunters should be able to hunt anywhere you can ride, that includes city parks, with any weapon they want b/c you dont have a restriction on the bike you can use. They should also be able to hunt year round, everyday of the week, and at night with lights.

    or

    you could be restricted to the kind of bike you use depending on the location of the trail. you wouldnt be able to ride in a safety zone. you will only be able to ride a few select months out of the year, you will pay to ride each year to help support your sport, you will not be able to ride on sundays, and hunters will be free to ruin your ride, and no night riding.

    See if you were subjected to their rules and regulations you wouldnt even bike anymore. It would be such a pain in the ass you would quit and go golfing. To argue that they have it better than you is the most ridiculous arguement i have ever heard.

    my point is there are restrictions for a reason. I am all for trails in game lands. They should also be closed during any hunting season. Violators should receive huge fines B/c hiking, biking, and horses are not condusive to trail usage during hunting season.
    I hear you and you have valid points- I never said I wanted to be out there during hunting season, but I WOULD like to be there in the off season. Can you justify that one?

  23. #23
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    sorry should have put this on the other thread. wasnt looking for replies anyway.
    Chance favors the prepared mind

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