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Thread: Green Lane

  1. #1
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    Green Lane

    Can someone give me an idea of how much riding there is at Green Lane? I've heard the red trail, from Knights Road, is the most popular, but I am wondering how long this is and if there is anything else that's open.

    I was there a bunch of years ago and seem to remember not finding to much to ride. Should I check this out or take a spin at the wiss?

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    You will also have the option of Nockamixon soon too-
    http://bikevmb.com/node/5954

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    The Red trail is prolly 3 - 4 miles max. If you plan to ride this weekend Wiss might be the better option as it rained here Thursday and Green Lane is very slow to dry out,
    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth"
    Mike Tyson

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    Jeez, where to start about Green Lane? Too much mud as already mentioned and seriously too many horses and their crap depending on when you hit it. Plus, in the colder/wetter months the horses churn the trails into a mess. Generally NOT a great riding experience IMHO. Go to Wiss, High Rocks, French Creek, Blue Marsh, etc. instead depending on the type of riding you want.

    But, I admit I have a personal reason to avoid going over there - my in-law's place backs up to the park.

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    Thanks for the info, pretty much what I remember of the place.

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    I felt compelled to comment on all the horse issues. The reason this park is so "set up" for horses, is that a very active equestrian community did most of the original work of establishing the trails. That same community was extremely active and effective, led by Michael D. Marino (then County Commissioner), an avid equestrian, in creating the Perkiomen Trail. You may want to thank the next horseback rider you see on this trail, in case they were one of the MANY who tirelessly and progressively made these trails happen.

    I mountain bike, and I horseback ride. It surprises me when I see people on nature trails, complaining about something like horse manure on the trail. There are plenty of city routes and non horse trails for these people, and plenty of room to steer around any manure that's out there. The equestrians were also instrumental in opening Green Lane Park to mountain bikes to begin with, so let's all share and enjoy together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorvallone
    I felt compelled to comment on all the horse issues. The reason this park is so "set up" for horses, is that a very active equestrian community did most of the original work of establishing the trails. That same community was extremely active and effective, led by Michael D. Marino (then County Commissioner), an avid equestrian, in creating the Perkiomen Trail. You may want to thank the next horseback rider you see on this trail, in case they were one of the MANY who tirelessly and progressively made these trails happen.

    I mountain bike, and I horseback ride. It surprises me when I see people on nature trails, complaining about something like horse manure on the trail. There are plenty of city routes and non horse trails for these people, and plenty of room to steer around any manure that's out there. The equestrians were also instrumental in opening Green Lane Park to mountain bikes to begin with, so let's all share and enjoy together.
    Elanor- thank you for the history. People who open trails should be commended, no matter what they ride, however I have to disagree with you on the manure issue. If dog owners are expected to clean up after their animals, why not equestrians? It may not be a health issue from the top of a horse, but there are several illnesses that can be had by taking a drink from a bottle that has been sprayed with horse manure, or if manure comes off a spinning wheel into an open mouth that was hoping for only air. Can you please help us understand this concern about the manure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorvallone
    I felt compelled to comment on all the horse issues. The reason this park is so "set up" for horses, is that a very active equestrian community did most of the original work of establishing the trails. That same community was extremely active and effective, led by Michael D. Marino (then County Commissioner), an avid equestrian, in creating the Perkiomen Trail. You may want to thank the next horseback rider you see on this trail, in case they were one of the MANY who tirelessly and progressively made these trails happen.

    I mountain bike, and I horseback ride. It surprises me when I see people on nature trails, complaining about something like horse manure on the trail. There are plenty of city routes and non horse trails for these people, and plenty of room to steer around any manure that's out there. The equestrians were also instrumental in opening Green Lane Park to mountain bikes to begin with, so let's all share and enjoy together.
    Hey, all the power to you Eleanor. Horses are wonderful and an active equestrian community helps preserve rural PA and that's good. I grew up owning, riding, and caring for multiple horses and recognize their importance. In fact, like I said before, Green Lane is essentially a horsepark as far as I'm concerned and that's fine - its one of the reasons I never ride there. I respect that equestrians designed and built it and expect to be able to enjoy it in peace.

    Here's my point - equestrians and mountainbikers in large numbers generally DON'T, WON'T, and CAN'T mix well on narrow singletrack unless everyone really, really is on their best behavior which isn't likely to happen since there will always be some obnoxious mtbrs and nasty equestrians out there. Even without those clowns you'll have bad incidents like when my wife was thrown from a skittish horse at Green Lane in back of my in-law's place when a mtbr with loud hubs came around a blind corner and startled it. She broke her arm as a result but wasn't mad at anyone - it was an accident. Multi-use paths of a singletrack variety through dense vegetation carry a certain degree of risk under such circumstances that could be somewhat minimized through use segregation.

    Another problem involves a trail's soil type and climate issues. Most trails in the Bux-Mont area just can't handle lots of horses during wet periods without turning trails to swamp (which many ride anyway) and then some equestrians then subsequently ride the edge widening it even further ( yeah, I know some mtbrs do this too but typically with somewhat less damage due to the weight differential). In either case riding wet trails makes for lousy conditions that don't look much different than the paddocks on my parent's horse farm/boarding operation in the early spring. Maybe this doesn't annoy equestrians but it drives most mtbrs and mtb trail builders nuts.

    Ultimately, IMHO the solution is that we need more horses-only and mtbr-only trails that effectively segregate the two sports. This is what is now taking place at Nockamixon where we are building a new trail system at the extreme eastern end of the park that the state has decided will exclude horses to eliminate dangerous situations and preserve a type of trail and trail surface conducive for great mountainbiking. Contrary to rumors, the equestrian community has and will continue to have exclusive rights to the rest of what is an enormous park and its extensive system of existing trails that mtbrs have long been banned from. Seems to me that everyone wins as long as both sides stays in their assigned area.

    Do I wish both mtbrs and equestrians could really co-exist? Sure I do but do I constantly want to have to dismount for horses, worry about startling squirrely horses risking injury to myself or the equestrian like what happened to my wife, steer around fresh manure on narrow singletrack surrounded by close-in multi-flora rosa, or spend time fixing zillions of deep hoofprints filled with water postholing the trail. No I don't, and most rational equestrians wouldn't want to if they were me anymore than I would if I were them having to deal with mtbrs and their impacts on a trail either.

    In any case, happy trails to all equestrians and mtbrs alike!

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    I think it best to refer you to ....

    http://www.bayequest.info/static/pdf/manure.pdf

    from which I abstracted the following:

    "Conclusion

    Horse manure is a solid waste excluded from federal EPA solid waste regulation because it neither contains significant amounts of hazardous chemicals, nor exhibits hazardous characteristics. The chemical constituents of horse manure are not toxic to humans. Horse guts do not contain significant levels of the two waterborne pathogens of greatest concern to human health risk, Cryptosporidium or Giardia, neither do they contain significant amounts of the bacteria E. coli 0157:H7 or Salmonella. Fungus, viruses, bacteria and worms found in horses have never been shown to infect humans and are unlikely to be zoonotic. Finally, the reality is that there are very few horses, and even fewer numbers of them that frequent trails. People seldom encounter or handle horse manure. People who do have occasion to handle horse manure have never been infected by this intimate contact. Humans and other sources within the environment (e.g. wild animals and birds) with their overwhelming population numbers are far more likely than horses to contribute to human health risks. "

    there are many other, similar, reports, which is why park managers don't require horse manure to be removed.

    All that said, I sure wouldn't want horse manure in my mouth, THANK YOU LOL. Its probably a good idea when mud is flying to keep your mouth shut? ~;-)

    On another point - I wish we had the luxury of having a trail for every sport. I hike, cross country ski, mountain bike and dog trekk, so that would be lots of different trails. Having sat on some park boards, the general opinion is we have to learn to share the ones we have, and improve them wherever possible to avoid problems. Horses spook (sometimes) and that's a risk the rider takes. I have met lots of really nice mountain bikers, and my friends have as well. All of the equestrians I know are happy to make the small accomodations of getting off the trail for one another. Studies show that mountain bikes are more damaging to trails than horse hooves, one for one, and there are a LOT more of you... but we STILL are happy to see y'all out enjoying yourself. The fact that trails are worn means we are using them...that can't be all bad. If you want to focus on something, focus on fixing the problems while maintaining and expanding use. That would be all good!

    Happy trails,

    Eleanor


    Enjoy and be well,

    Eleanor

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorvallone
    People seldom encounter or handle horse manure. People who do have occasion to handle horse manure have never been infected by this intimate contact. Humans and other sources within the environment (e.g. wild animals and birds) with their overwhelming population numbers are far more likely than horses to contribute to human health risks. "
    "have NEVER been infected by this intimate contact"? Really???? Nobody has EVER gotten sick from horse poop? No offense, but that statement alone invalidates all of that information. No credible scientific source would EVER write something like that.

    Also, I "handle" dog poop every single day (sometimes twice) as I live in an urban environment and have to "pick up" after my dog. I have yet to contract some terrible disease from doing so. Saying people "seldom encounter" horse manure is ludicrous. I ride over it EVERY time I go mountain biking on a multiuse trail.

    Studies show that mountain bikes are more damaging to trails than horse hooves, one for one, and there are a LOT more of you... \
    Huh, I did a google search "erosion study mountain bikes horses" and clicked on the first NON-bike related link (which was the 2nd link overall) and got this:

    http://www.americantrails.org/resour...enImpacts.html

    Here's the important part:
    In the Executive Summary of Weir's book, he notes that: "Common belief holds that wheeled vehicles cause new trails to form more readily than the actions of feet or hooves, thus justifying the allowance of off trail travel by hikers and equestrians. Yet, erosion studies cited above, practically Weaver and Dale (1978, Quinn et al (1981), Soanne et al (1981) and Cole (1987) , suggest that in many places, "feet and hooves will trample more than bicycle tires. The instantaneous sheer forces exerted on a plant by a foot or hoof will have much more of a tearing effect than the rolling over and crushing force of a bicycle wheel."
    Keep reading, there's more there, too (including arguments about the negative effects of horse excretions). These weak arguments against MTB are getting old.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorvallone
    Studies show that mountain bikes are more damaging to trails than horse hooves, one for one...
    I would love to see what legitimate study you're referring to. I have never seen a scientific-backed study that reaches that conclusion. But I do have this:

    Aldo Leopold Wilderness Research Institute A trail impact study from the Aldo Leopold Wilderness Research Institute comparing hiking impacts to horses and llamas noted: "Horse traffic resulted in statistically significant higher sediment yields (the primary indicator of trail deterioration) than either hiker or llama traffic. The low level (250 passes) horse treatment caused more impact than the high level (1000 passes) llama treatments, suggesting that horses can cause at least four times as much impact to trails under the conditions simulated in this experiment. In addition, under dry trail conditions horse traffic caused significant reductions in soil bulk density (a measure of how compacted the soil is) compared to llama and hiker traffic. Horse traffic also caused significant increases in soil roughness compared with the other 2 users. This suggests that the greater impacts of horses on trails is a result of soil loosening of trail surfaces that are otherwise compacted, thereby increasing the detachability of soil particles and increasing sediment yield and erosion." (Llamas, Horses, and Hikers: Do They Cause Different Amounts of Impact? - Thomas Deluca (University of Montana) and David Cole (USFS - Wilderness Research Institute) 1998 study)

    Wilson and Seney: In 1994, John Wilson and Joseph Seney of Montana State University published "Erosional Impacts of Hikers, Horses, Motorcycles and Off-Road Bicycles on Mountain Trails in Montana." (12) The study tracked 100 passages by each of the four groups over control plots on two trails in national forests. For some of the passages, the researchers pre-wetted the trail with a fixed quantity of water using a rainfall simulator. The researchers measured sediment runoff, which correlates with erosion. Wilson and Seney found no statistically significant difference between measured bicycling and hiking effects. They did find that horses caused the most erosion of the trails, and that motorcycles traveling up wetted trails caused significant impact. They also concluded, "Horses and hikers (hooves and feet) make more sediment available than wheels (motorcycles and off-road bicycles) on prewetted trails and that horses make more sediment available on dry plots as well." (p.74) Wilson and Seney suggested that precipitation will cause erosion even without human travel and this factor may significantly outweigh the effects of travel. Trail design, construction, and maintenance may be much more important factors in controlling erosion.

    Thurston and Reader: In 2001, Eden Thurston and Richard Reader of the University of Guelph, Ontario, published "Impacts of Experimentally Applied Mountain Biking and Hiking on Vegetation and Soil of a Deciduous Forest" (10). The authors set up two identical lanes of travel over natural vegetation in a deciduous forest. They measured plant stem density, species richness, and soil exposure before, during, and after the 500 passages in each lane by hikers and bicyclists. Results: "Three principal findings emerged from this study. First, impacts on vegetation and soil increased with biking and hiking activity. Second, the impacts of biking and hiking measured here were not significantly different. Third, impacts did not extend beyond 30cm of the trail centerline" (Thurston and Reader, 2001, p.405).

    Chiu and Kriwoken: In a study whose publication in Annals of Leisure Research is pending, two researchers at the University of Tasmania, Australia, conducted an experiment on an abandoned fire road to compare track ("track" is the term for trail in Australia) impacts from hiking and bicycling. For the study "Managing Recreational Mountain Biking in Wellington Park, Tasmania, Australia" (2), the authors had hikers and bicyclists pass test plots 400 times each, and measured the surface profile of the track before, during, and after the passes. They compared flat, steep, wet, and dry conditions. Chiu and Kriwoken found no significant difference in the trail wear caused by the two user groups.

    Weaver and Dale (1978) "During down slope travel, downhill stepping (by foot and horse) was more erosive than downhill motor biking." It should be noted that the modern mountain bike did not exist at the time of this study, but later studies show that mountain bikes have far less impacts (equal to hiking) as compared with motor bikes. (Trampling Effects of Hikers, Motorcycles, and Horses in Meadows and Forests) - T. Weaver and D. Dale - Journal of Applied Ecology 1978)

    Some additional light reading:
    http://www.mountainbike.co.nz/politics/doc/conflict/
    http://wnyllama.org/documents/ip13_trampling.pdf
    http://www.uvm.edu/~SNRVTDC/trails/e...ctofhikers.pdf

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorvallone

    On another point - I wish we had the luxury of having a trail for every sport. I hike, cross country ski, mountain bike and dog trekk, so that would be lots of different trails. Having sat on some park boards, the general opinion is we have to learn to share the ones we have, and improve them wherever possible to avoid problems. Horses spook (sometimes) and that's a risk the rider takes. I have met lots of really nice mountain bikers, and my friends have as well. All of the equestrians I know are happy to make the small accomodations of getting off the trail for one another. Studies show that mountain bikes are more damaging to trails than horse hooves, one for one, and there are a LOT more of you... but we STILL are happy to see y'all out enjoying yourself. The fact that trails are worn means we are using them...that can't be all bad. If you want to focus on something, focus on fixing the problems while maintaining and expanding use. That would be all good!

    Happy trails,

    Eleanor


    Enjoy and be well,

    Eleanor
    Eleanor:

    In many places trails are restricted from one use or another - I'll repeat most of Nockamixon has been off limits to mtbrs for years and many of those trails used primarily by equestrians are a muddy mess clearly caused by hoof prints sunk deep into ultra-wet trails that then fill with rain or snowmelt. Horses DO cause a lot of damage to trails - I respectfully disagree that mountainbikes cause an inordinately larger amount of damage than horses do in the type of soils we have around here.

    However, this is a moot point, we DO need separate trails and then we'll deal with our own damage that we know is ours instead of blaming each other. Nockamixon has separate areas for equestrians, disc golf players, and now mtbrs so what's wrong with that? As far as for sharing: don't kid yourself I've had bad run-ins with numerous nasty equestrians involving gray area incidents. Not all equestrians are considerate anymore than all mtbrs are. There's a sizable minority in both groups that act as though the other has no rights and that they are superior, down deep you probably know that.

    As far as the manure goes - I shoveled box stalls out for 20+ years and realize its nothing particulary bad but mtbrs aren't going to be thrilled with that stuff in their treads on a constant basis or it flicking around when its wet. Don't forget that you're riding 7 feet+ in the air at mouth level - we're not.

    Finally, I've devoted more than 50 hours of my weekends since late September helping build a mtbr-oriented trail at Nockamixon so far so I can rightfully state that I am expanding and then prepared to maintain use so that mtbrs have an exclusive place to go that will take pressure off of Green Lane so there are fewer of "us" to bother the equestrian community.

    Again I'll repeat that mine is not an attack on the equestrian community, if any interpret it as such than they are sadly misinformed. Both sides need to influence local and state government for assistance in developing separate trail systems with the type of volunteer help that I'm doing so we all can enjoy our sports without conflict.

    With respect to all and malice towards none

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorvallone
    I felt compelled to comment on all the horse issues. The reason this park is so "set up" for horses, is that a very active equestrian community did most of the original work of establishing the trails. That same community was extremely active and effective, led by Michael D. Marino (then County Commissioner), an avid equestrian, in creating the Perkiomen Trail. You may want to thank the next horseback rider you see on this trail, in case they were one of the MANY who tirelessly and progressively made these trails happen.

    I mountain bike, and I horseback ride. It surprises me when I see people on nature trails, complaining about something like horse manure on the trail. There are plenty of city routes and non horse trails for these people, and plenty of room to steer around any manure that's out there. The equestrians were also instrumental in opening Green Lane Park to mountain bikes to begin with, so let's all share and enjoy together.
    As far as I'm concerned, if more mtbr-designed, built, and maintained trails intended primarily for mtbrs like Salisbury, South Mountain Emmaus, and now in the easternmost portion of Nockamixon were built, many mtbrs could leave places like Green Lane and the Perkiomen Trail to the equestrians which could only make everyone more happy. G.L. and P.T. are kinda boring to say the least. I seriously doubt that the equestrian community would be upset if mtbrs left for greener pastures.

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