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  1. #26
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    Not really interested in getting sucked into this discussion,and I have no love for Corbett, but this statement in the article had me laughing out loud: "Despite the out-of-state vacation property, the Corbetts continue to promote tourism in Pennsylvania." So it's now objectionable for an elected official to vacation outside their elected district? I expect better of NPR.

  2. #27
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    Oh, and I'm no big fan of Corbett. But Rendell spent $5.2b on our public daycare system at the highest and less then $4.9b his last year. Corbett spent $5.3b in 2012 and has slightly increased each year. How is that a cut in funding. I'll tell you how. Because they put on paper that they intend to increase spending so many percent that anything less of an increase is a cut.
    All politicians are despicable. They'll spend millions of their own money to get a job that pays thousands because they are assured to make it back in spades in the back office. That is why we need less of them.
    Free minds, free markets.
    Help, I'm a rock!

  3. #28
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    I taught school in the public system for 12 years. My eyes were opened to the ridiculous amount of money that was and is wasted everyday in the public sector (school system included).

    I vowed to never allow my kids in the public school system. Making the sacrifices to send them to some of the best private schools available was the best decision I ever made and worth every penny. My kids read really well and luckily were never and never will be exposed to Common Core. This goes for my grandkids as well.

    As far as the "Global Warming Hoax", well we know.... I know I am going to get blasted on here and I don't care. My life won't be affected in any way by the rude comments coming. If our great leaders like our President and other political and celebrity leaders truly believed in global warming in their context ( I fully understand the earth heats and cools as it has for millions of years) then they the most evil humans on earth as their carbon footprint is ridiculous. Example, President flies to Martha's Vineyard, same day wife and kids, later the dog. Flies all over giving stupid speeches that could be given over the internet or tv. Just a few examples. Flame away. Oh yeah, Al Gore and his huge homes and least efficient jet available. Finally, I froze my ass off last winter.

  4. #29
    The White Jeff W
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man from Utopia View Post
    Thanks for reinforcing my points.

    By the way, natural gas is the product produced by fracking. A whole lot of buildings are heated with natural gas, and 12-15% of public transportation is powered by natural gas. Nobody is getting paid big bucks to pump poison into our ecosystems and water tables. They're getting paid to produce a source of energy. And from what I have learned so far, they're doing it in a manner that has less impact then any other way of producing a cleaner energy. And paid pretty well from what I understand, from the truck driver up to the CEO. If they could produce merely by wiggling their noses, I'm sure they would.
    I hate fracking as much as the next guy. I hate dams on our rivers. I hate logging our forests. I hate wind turbines on our mountain tops. I hate all the roads (except the ones I use of course) and all the cars (except mine and the people I know). I hate all the light pollution or all pollution for that matter. But I do like a hot shower after biking by simply turning on a faucet. Heat in the winter and air conditioning when its unbearably hot. A little bit of light when I need to see in the dark by flipping a switch.
    I could go on and on. My point is I don't focus solely on the downside of everything. I try to learn as much as I can about anything I wish to put forth an opinion, weighing the positives and negatives. And understand that every piece of information I find is biased even the things I see first hand.
    Be reasonable.
    Would you have a gas well in your back yard? How about if your neighbor put one in? I know people who have had their quality of life and property values destroyed because their neighbor did. Cant move because they cant sell their house. Their only options are deal with it or walk away & let the bank repossess it.
    No moss...

  5. #30
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    So I was out for a ride in the vicinity of our coal region and was thinking about this controversy and I imagined a young guy out with his grandfather or great-grandfather. The youngster could ask, "Why is the town of Centralia gone?", "Why are there stagnant cesspools of disgusting liquid that never evaporates?", "Why doesn't anything grow where the slag has been dumped?", "Why are there tremendous scars and sinkholes all over the land?", or "Why has that abandoned equipment just been left to sit?"

    Now, fast-forward 100 years and YOUR kid is the grandfather or great-grandfather and is observing the aftermath of a fracking site. Would these same questions, or similar questions still be relevant?

    Do we really think that these politicians and companies care about the locals? Do we really think that a certain percent of the engineers and inspectors are not being bribed to keep their mouths shut? Does anyone care about anything other than corporate profit? Who is gonna clean the crap up when the money has been made and the millionaires have hit the road?

    The fossil fuel end of energy production really is so bizarre, isn't it? Removing it from the earth, refining it and disposing of by-products, then (ironically) transporting it to where the consumer finally purchases it and burns it.

    History tends to repeat itself. We know many claim fracking to be relatively safe, but we also know enough to be skeptical.

    Personally, I am not quite ready to give up my "fossil fuel dependent" lifestyle, so I may sound like I am calling the kettle black, but seriously, the thing I am looking at here is that anyone who believes that any industry is looking to give us "cheap" energy needs to get your head examined. Let alone "clean" "cheap" energy.

    What will really happen is that when demand goes high enough to drive prices high enough, corporations can finally justify costlier methods of extraction and the myth of "cheap" energy will forever be a carrot held out in front of us while the executives are still making their profits and middle-class americans are still nervous about how much it will cost to keep homes warm next winter or how much their commute to work costs in gas every week.

    So, I don't know, bit of a rant, yes. The thing is, doing this to private tracts of undeveloped land is one thing. Encouraging it directly adjacent to, and underneath state parks is another thing entirely.

    And Corbett is an ass anyway.
    You better just go ahead and drop that seatpost down to the reflector... the trail gets pretty rough down there.

  6. #31
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    White Jeff, I know exactly what thats like. I live within a mile of a proposed ethanol plant. Our property value has plummeted. Their plan is to have 1 tractor trailer on our rural road every 6 minutes 24/7 but we know it is more likely going to be constant traffic from 8am to 5pm monday through friday. They also plan on rail cars to be idling 12 hours out of the day (or night). And the odor of fermentation that can travel 12 miles. The plant is on hold because ethanol has caused a dramatic increase in corn and even with the 50¢+ subsidy per gallon it can't compete with gas. Yeah, Im against it. Not because it makes my life unbearable or puts me out of my home but because it's a bad idea on every level. How would I feel if it were a gas well? I would like to think I would be accepting because I do believe what I've learned so far that natural gas is a net positive compared to all the alternatives. But monetary gains or losses are not just driving factors for greedy CEOs and politicians, they are equally as important to me (and I'm sure, you too). Human nature is human nature. It's hard to see the bigger picture when all your hard work is lost like castles in the sand.
    But there is such a thing as luck of the draw. I also know some people who own some land in western PA. Im guessing around 100 acres. They got several million dollars for drilling under their land. That was 4 years ago. Of course I don't know all their financial details, but they were complaining that about half is going to taxes. So the claim that PA gov is not getting any revenue from shale is flat out false.

    Uncle Six Pack-I like that you're at least thinking out loud. But...you do know Centraiia was started by a tire fire at the local dump? Now that we are in the information age, I think the days of the Love Canal are largely over. You can now go online to find the rate of leukemia, or ppm of carbon, or benzine or whatever in virtually any area of the country. True that when you get the info that something nasty is going off the charts, its too late. But the info is out there and available to the common citizen to look into before agreements are made. Corbett is an ass, in that he tried to put through a law that would have one series of conditional use hearings pertaining to shale extraction instead of each municipality affected having there own hearings to determine their impact. I can see his point there, I just don't trust 'em.
    Help, I'm a rock!

  7. #32
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    I work in the industry. There is enough money to made both by industry and by government there is no need to drill under or within State Parks. Every company thinks its got a good spot already lined up once the restrictions are removed, so they all just want to go grab a new spot while they can. They don't need it and they know it.

    We need more parks, more paths, more trails, and more green and we don't need anymore of it spoiled for a short term gain.

    Resource Companies failed the Marshmallow Test in the past and they will continue to do so.
    I do custom ArcGIS and Google Maps, including data collection and sustainable trail layout. Ride Welsh Mountain

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man from Utopia View Post

    Uncle Six Pack-I like that you're at least thinking out loud. But...you do know Centraiia was started by a tire fire at the local dump?
    Well, there's a lot of controversy about that fire. Regardless of the story you choose to believe, that local dump was an abandoned strip mine site. So uh, yeah... that wasn't supposed to happen right? Well, hindsight is always 20/20.
    You better just go ahead and drop that seatpost down to the reflector... the trail gets pretty rough down there.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man from Utopia View Post
    I also know some people who own some land in western PA. Im guessing around 100 acres. They got several million dollars for drilling under their land. That was 4 years ago. Of course I don't know all their financial details, but they were complaining that about half is going to taxes.
    Not what we are talking about. They are paying income tax on royalties paid to them by the gas companies, just as any one of us pays on our typical paycheck. And it will be divided to state, federal, and local. That is not the gas "severance" tax were need to put in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man from Utopia View Post
    So the claim that PA gov is not getting any revenue from shale is flat out false.
    So I was off a bit..................there is a "tax" of sorts that Corbett put on the drilling. It's an "impact" fee that generated around 600 million in 3 years. Other states like West Virginia have a "severance tax" that is based, and can fluctuate solely on production volume, at 5%. Given the gas production last year alone that 5% tax could have generated $425 million.

    Here's a link to a local to me newspaper article Gov. Corbett's PA impact fee on gas drillers costs in lost severance tax. - Morning Call

    Clearly, Corbett has made drilling here a bargain for the gas companies. Again, I'm not against drilling. Just tax it properly, and KEEP IT OUT OF OUR STATE PARKS.
    14 Banshee Spitfire 27.5

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comer View Post
    I taught school in the public system for 12 years. My eyes were opened to the ridiculous amount of money that was and is wasted everyday in the public sector (school system included).

    I vowed to never allow my kids in the public school system. Making the sacrifices to send them to some of the best private schools available was the best decision I ever made and worth every penny. My kids read really well and luckily were never and never will be exposed to Common Core. This goes for my grandkids as well.

    As far as the "Global Warming Hoax", well we know.... I know I am going to get blasted on here and I don't care. My life won't be affected in any way by the rude comments coming. If our great leaders like our President and other political and celebrity leaders truly believed in global warming in their context ( I fully understand the earth heats and cools as it has for millions of years) then they the most evil humans on earth as their carbon footprint is ridiculous. Example, President flies to Martha's Vineyard, same day wife and kids, later the dog. Flies all over giving stupid speeches that could be given over the internet or tv. Just a few examples. Flame away. Oh yeah, Al Gore and his huge homes and least efficient jet available. Finally, I froze my ass off last winter.
    And hearing that you where in the public school system makes me want to take my kids out of the public school system...
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  11. #36
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    See how much better it works to move the debate forward with reasoned conversations. Name calling, finger pointing, and shouting fu is childish and the first resort of the uneducated.

    In the end I am in agreement. Another side note about myself. I have a relative (great, great uncle) who has a PA State Park dedicated and named after him. I'm proud of that and certainly don't want to see that diminish in any way. Drilling in our state parks is prohibited, should be prohibited and will never happen. If it were to happen that park would be done, nobody would visit. We have a lot of state parks but it still only amounts to less then 1% of the state. We don't need to go there.

    As to the taxes paid. A tax is a tax. Its a weight, its a drag, its a governor (choke) on the progress of an enterprise. Its also, IMO a necessity. Just what, when, and how much is what I question. What separates them is where the money goes. They give them cute names to make you feel good about them, to make you think think they will be used for a common good that only an idiot would not be in support of, and they will only be levied on evil mean people. Once you dig into it, it becomes obvious its all a shell game. Deliberately made so convoluted and confusing that it is impossible to figure which way is up.

    Impact Fee or Severance Tax, what's the difference? You are correct on the surface. Impact fee is a flat tax on every well site whether it produces a little or a lot or nothing at all. Drillers like this, or more specifically their bean counters, because its a known line item. The severance tax is a floating amount like you stated. The downside of this is it becomes a shell game, moving money, waiting to extract when things are less favorable, or rushing things when things are more favorable.
    Corbett chose the flat tax route and it has been a bargain for tax companies. Whether it is enough to cover impact and contingencies plus a little icing for the state we'll never know until its over. Each municipality is also getting their own impact fee, and each land owner is getting his or her own impact fee. Unfortunately every person impacted is not getting some of the cake no matter how its sliced. No way around that no matter how you tax them. Except to do nothing, then nobody wins but at least nobody loses.

    Id say by my measure we are doing better then VA in the natural gas industry. Far more gas businesses have started up or moved to PA. More jobs created, and more incomes have gone up. More money has come to this state, More money has been made in this state, and (Im making an uneducated guess here) more money has stayed in this state because of ALL the taxes on the other items listed. On the flip side, PA has a whole lot more shale then VA.

    What I don't like about your way of thinking is that its the governments money, since we didn't have the 5% tax, our state lost $425 million. Why not say since we didn't have a 10% we lost $850 million? Or 30% which some Dems are suggesting we aim for. VA is getting 5% we should get at least 6% because we care more. Then VA counters, PA is getting 6% we should get at least 7. The typical way the liberal government negotiates is start with taking 90% of what you have but be kind and compromise and concede and let you keep half all the while making you feel lucky to get that much because someone else for whatever reason has less. May sound cynical but how else can you justify spending more money this year over last year (after adjusting for inflation even)and be considered a budget cut? Its a confusing and complex slight of hand to keep you looking over here instead of seeing whats really going on over there. Easily led by emotions. That is why we need less overlords and more educated individuals. Logic is key not feel good emotions.

    And USP, I don't blame the energy company (big coal) for lighting the match. I blame the uneducated who thought it was a good idea. In the end we're all human. Wether we're led by a central scrutinizer or the combined will of individuals, mistakes will be made, accidents will happen. No system is perfect. One individual can and will screw things up pretty badly, but one with too much control can and will screw it up totally.
    Help, I'm a rock!

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