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  1. #1
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    Don't join IMBA and Live to spend the money you save!

    To all:

    Save your money! Spend it on new Bike Parts! Buy them from Proformance Cycle or Performance Bike! or your favorite shop! Ahh the freedom!

    Now that's the way it is!

    Without a Bike you don't have to worry about Trails or Clubs or Riding! Without a GREAT mechanic you won't be riding for long!

    Please feel free to check my spelling. I'm a "Suspensionologist" not an English teacher!

    This will be FUN!

    Ok have at it!
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  2. #2
    my church is the woods
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    I'll take the flame bait and run with it

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle

    This will be FUN!

    Ok have at it!
    ok, flame bait taken...

    that is your purpose for starting this thread; to start a flame war....is it not?

    You know what, on second thought, this is so not worth my time to even lay out all the pro vs. cons of joining IMBA, and having a local and statewide chapter of it. I mean if you can't understand that a group can accomplish more than an individual can with working with land managers, opening new trails, securing trail access for future mtb'ers, etc., well, I'm not here to teach common sense.

    I've read some of your other posts here on MTBR. I actually can see where you are coming from on some points. I used to be a teenage bmx dirt jumper. My buddies and I would build awsome trails and big jumps only and always to have them bulldozed later on because it wasn't all legit. But heck, we were teenagers and didn't want to bother getting permission or taking the time to go thru the process of getting something official. If we did, we were dismissed as rogue kids who already had a BMX track in the county to ride.
    so we just found a new place to dig, and that would eventually get bulldozed.

    Now, being in my mid 30's, and having been into riding for 2/3'd of my life and probably will be for the rest of my life, I have more respect for doing things the right way. The way that makes trails last and makes them sustainable. That means, for me, doing bicycle safety shows a few years ago for all the elementry schools in Berks county among others. Helping ensure that BMX's were included in the planning of the YMCA skatepark in Lebanon. These are but a few examples of ways that I promote cycling in general, and as a lifelong love of mine, I feel like I have to keep encouraging the younger generation to get involved in riding.

    I feel like IMBA is in it's infancy, and will get stronger with the infusion of local clubs and the work they do. IMBA's a worldwide organization of people who want to pass on the that feeling they get from riding trails to other people. That is not possible without the trails. IMBA provides the resources and information that every local mtb club can use to approach a land manager and demonstrate to them that we can build and maintain sustainable trails, and as a part of this worldwide organization, we are recognized as the authority on trail work....not just a bunch of kids who think they know about trails. We have the proof we know what we're doing when it comes to trails, and have volumes of evidence of what IMBA has done, the techniques to do it, and the tools and volunteers to get it done.

    getting it yet, Lee? it's not about giving IMBA $25 and expecting them to solve the gamelands issue or whatever local problem you have. IMBA is the resource, the national voice for all the little clubs - made up of individual riders, to join together and fight for our right to use the trails.

    IMO, by giving the big F U to IMBA, you are stating that you don't care that you don't care if future generations have trails to ride, you don't care if mountain biking is percieved as a legitimate sport, you don't care about anything excpet your own self interest....because you got yours and everyone else should look out for their own self interest too.

    Fortunatly, at least some people around here get it. I've been helping those people build trails at Swatara State Park, maintain and build new trails at Camp Mack, and do trail maintainence at Governor Dick park. More "legal" places/trails to ride should mean more people that get out there to ride, which means more bikes and parts sales....isn't that good for you Lee?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonraker
    I feel like IMBA is in it's infancy, and will get stronger with the infusion of local clubs and the work they do. IMBA's a worldwide organization of people who want to pass on the that feeling they get from riding trails to other people. That is not possible without the trails. IMBA provides the resources and information that every local mtb club can use to approach a land manager and demonstrate to them that we can build and maintain sustainable trails, and as a part of this worldwide organization, we are recognized as the authority on trail work....not just a bunch of kids who think they know about trails. We have the proof we know what we're doing when it comes to trails, and have volumes of evidence of what IMBA has done, the techniques to do it, and the tools and volunteers to get it done.

    getting it yet, Lee? it's not about giving IMBA $25 and expecting them to solve the gamelands issue or whatever local problem you have. IMBA is the resource, the national voice for all the little clubs - made up of individual riders, to join together and fight for our right to use the trails.
    I joined IMBA in 1994, I think. I became the state rep in about 1999. Somewhere along the line I realized that I am IMBA. And so is everyone else that gives a damn about trails, joins, and uses the resources IMBA makes available for its members to make the changes they want to see on the local level.

    I have followed the IMBA model. I became a WE when I helped form a local SORBA Chapter. We have since built 80+ miles of legal trails on public lands. We just finished building 24 miles about 2 miles from my house. I'm riding there tonite.

    We have plenty of folks spouting what you say. I have never ridden one inch of trail they have built. They have not built a single trail. But they ride the hell out of the ones we've built. I love seeing them out there. I always ask when are we going to ride the trails you guys are building?

  4. #4
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    Tongue in cheek

    While I think we know Lee's feelings about IMBA, I get the sense (or hope) that this is his tongue-in-cheek response to the "Join IMBA or die" thread, which was also a light hearted post that ease some of the tensions.

    I'll do one better, and continue to spend my money on my IMBA membership when it expires, support the organization however Joe and others can use me, and continue to spend my hard earned dolars buying from the online vendors and LBS who give me great service and prices.

    Oh yeah, I forgot the whole "Boycott Proformance" post forthcoming in the "Where are the Best Deals" forum.

    Carry on fellows....

    Bob
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  5. #5
    Vintage 2 Stroke Mt Biker
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    Wow

    You really shouldnt be busting Lee. He is one hell of a guy I know he was at jim thorpe handing out product to the cause. i have seen him loan his own bikes to guys and girls to ride. he stops on the trail and offers to help and fixes stuff out there putting off his own ride to help and ending up in the dark. im not saying imba is bad but i have seen the join or die attitude myself. i knoe imba is a resource but so is a farm tractor or a bandaid. if one chooses not to use the resource that is there choice. the post about join or die is really stupid.why isnt that flame bait? that is the way most people percieve imba. i hunt and i can tell you we hunters never cut trail as imba wants to do everywhere. you should look at your own ideals! everyone who uses sgl does so by the rules already in place. why do mt bikers have to cut and destroy to ride there? i can see this is am imba baised post board. you should be on the hunting message boards and see what is said of you

    thats all i have to say take it or leave it

  6. #6
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    Rider, welcome to the board. looks like you just joined but i'm sure lee's filled you in on everything.

    I will explain a few things and i don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, but i have been to a bunch of events(RCST bash) hundreds of group rides blah, blah, and i honestly can say i don't push the "imba or die" attitude or anything close. The closest i get is by wearing an imba jersey. I just try and lead by example and do the best job possible given the circumstances.

    I don't think anyone has questioned what Lee or anyone like lee does for his friends, local trails etc. No one really says you have to join imba. I think we all recognize the benefit of having a voice for the sport for all types of reasons.

    If you feel that there is a large group of people that feel that the perception is they HAVE to join imba, please clarify to them the above verbage.

    i do find concern with some comments about how imba and PA mtn bikers want trails everywhere. Quote from me to the PGC "i don't beleive we need to build anymore trails on game lands, we just need to assess the current trail systems and create a low impact and sustainable situation" In reality many, many of the trails on SGL's are created either by Deer, Hunters, and Enduro riders. In the case of Jim thorpe the most popular trail was 1/3 built by one single mtn biker. The other 2/3 was by hunters and enduros.

    I've spent many a nights on the hunting boards and can honestly say that motorized vehicles are about 90% of the concern. If I went on there tonight and posted a thread about mtn biking "expecting" to ride on game lands i would be DOA, as i would expected to be b/c that would be a crappy attitude. Do a search on the forums for mtn biking and see what comes up.

    i'm sure Lee is a great guy, but what would happen if someone came into his shop or one of his riding buddies wanted to start a club and even affiliate with IMBA?

    In my opinion this board is not IMBA biased b/c there isn't much pressure to join but it is biased towards many success stories of trail reclamation, legalizing trails, having strong rapport with land managers, have killer group rides, posting events, etc etc.

    sounds like this board has a biased towards being proud of PA Mtn biking!

    I don't feel i'm being defensive but since you just joined the forum i thought i would provide a little history.

    As far as taking or leaving it????? we'll always take it, it makes us stronger.




    it's a bummer i've been whittled down to be a bandaid and a tractor
    I didn't get your name or location?

    hope to see everyone on saturday.

    joey

  7. #7
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    First off:

    Rider58, I guess you are going to make me guess who you are? I have an idea, but the hunting thing throws me off. You know me well. I guess you have been there a few times or else you heard from one of the motorcycle guys! Would you be a landowner? I will figure it out!

    Second:

    To Moonraker, Very Very Very good points. I can see the respect you have! Thank you! Let me address some points.

    Your quote:

    getting it yet, Lee? it's not about giving IMBA $25 and expecting them to solve the gamelands issue or whatever local problem you have. IMBA is the resource, the national voice for all the little clubs - made up of individual riders, to join together and fight for our right to use the trails.

    How will the national resource help me and my riding friends in the valley? Should I care about a trail in Arizona? Are people from Arizona coming here to help? What could they do here. We have trees! LOL. We have Gamelands here. We have trails here! Our nearest local rep is near Allentown. How much do you think he knows about this Valley? Not that he should! I'm sure he does whatever he can to help. I see by the posting on here most of the riders are from away from the Valley! So I give 25 bucks for? Everyone else out there gives 25 bucks, does ANY of the money or help come here? NOPE!

    Rider58 has a good point! IMBA just doesn't get it! They want to BUILD trails. Do Hikers, birdwatchers, hunters, fishermen do that? They all use gamelands as per the rules.

    Now let's talk about CHANGE!

    Everything changes for the better or worst. Everyone protests the land destruction the NEW Mall or Walla Walla Mart will cause, yet the same guys will bypass the LBS and go to the Walmart for a tube to save a buck. Then walk in the LBS and ask why their fork isn't working like it used to. Usually busting in and demanding service right then because they have some BIG ride planned and they can't wait. Change yes. All the trails we build ride and rule now will be gone or be paved soon. Save Money if you wanna save something, at least you can spend it later at Walmart! LOL.

    Do I wanna save trails you bet! Everytime I ask What has IMBA done for me, I get the same response, Well they are a resource, a big voice from some where else. They are over there.

    Joe:

    The Quads or Enduros as you call them pay form registration for the vehicle at time of purchase. I think the state looks the other way about stopping the misuse of these vehicles. I know the GC doesn't have the man power to patrol and stop the quads. But if it wasn't for the Quads we Mt bikers would not be riding it the woods. It would all be grown in.

    So where are we. I think Mt Bikers have plenty of places to ride: Rail/Trails. Designated routes. State parks, State forests, Private land. If you look at the adverage user of a mt bike he or she "can ride" or "wants to ride" about 25 miles max.Yes there are the few who like the Epic. Most Mt bikers are the "I can do it with a Walmart bike even if it kills me, b/c I saw it on TV! Hail the infomericial Landrider bike! LOL

    I think you posted to me about one of your reps being at a meeting with the GC and when asked for support all you heard were crickets! I bet those mt bike guys were at the Walmart buying a tube. LOL! Is an IMBA rep going to walk into my shop in the next 30 days? Have I ever run into an IMBA rep on ANY of the trails I ride? You know the answer! Might see someone for Arizona soon, but he's a Motorycle guy!

    I hope I spelled everything correct and didn't copy anyone elses name rights in this post!

    LOL
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  8. #8
    Vintage 2 Stroke Mt Biker
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    im new here so i guess i need some info

    if imba gets to do whatever they want to do in sgl what will be the arrangemant as far as hunting seasons go. will i see guys riding mtbikes with trailers on them hauling out the deer they shot

  9. #9
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    Rider 58..hmmmmm

    Since you saw Lee at JT ride handing out product, that must mean you were there..I, too was there and got to meet Lee and made an instant friend as well as my son did too and I'm sorry, Lee, i cannot remember the name of your riding partner that came with you, but we all had a good time and talked about my personal passion of mountain biking..riding with my son. You're right in the hunter aspect becuse, i too am a hunter and i pay good $$ to get license, tags, etc. to access hunting areas. I posted in another thread that I think if MTB want access to designated game lands, approach it as an out of season use and take classes for first aid, leave no trace principals and sell our riding there as helping out a streched thin range/warden/enforcemnt corps by acting as extra eyes and ears for poachers, widfires, illegal activities. This approach makes it sellable to authorities. Demanding access will only insure that you won't get it. It doesn't need to turn into a percieved battle of good ol' Pa hunter boys against those hippie assed tree hugging mountain bikers. if it does,I'm screwed, cause i'm a Texas redneck that loves riding a mountain bike and really loves animals..they're tasty!
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  10. #10
    my church is the woods
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    How will the national resource help me and my riding friends in the valley? Should I care about a trail in Arizona? Are people from Arizona coming here to help? What could they do here. We have trees! LOL. We have Gamelands here. We have trails here! Our nearest local rep is near Allentown. How much do you think he knows about this Valley? Not that he should! I'm sure he does whatever he can to help. I see by the posting on here most of the riders are from away from the Valley! So I give 25 bucks for? Everyone else out there gives 25 bucks, does ANY of the money or help come here? NOPE!

    I recognise your "what's in it for me" attitude about this issue. Hopefully one day you will see the big picture and want make a positive contribution to the greater good, and help ensure future generations have free access to plenty of trails, all over the world.



    I have lived and do travel to Arizona actually, and like the trails they have there. If riders from other states want to travel here to ride, I think there should be a network of legal trails to ride. I certainly plan my vacations where there are trails. The past few years I've gone to Vermont, New York, W. Virginia, and New Jersey to ride trails. I know for a fact that in W.Virginia, mountain biking is a major part of their tourism industry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Everything changes for the better or worst. Everyone protests the land destruction the NEW Mall or Walla Walla Mart will cause, yet the same guys will bypass the LBS and go to the Walmart for a tube to save a buck. Then walk in the LBS and ask why their fork isn't working like it used to. Usually busting in and demanding service right then because they have some BIG ride planned and they can't wait. Change yes. All the trails we build ride and rule now will be gone or be paved soon. Save Money if you wanna save something, at least you can spend it later at Walmart! LOL.
    sweeping generalizations and stereotyping individuals who mountain bike is ignorant and a shortcut to thinking. I haven't been in a walmart on over 5 years, and I always buy from small local businesses whenever possible. However, if I were passing through "the valley" and needed a tube, and the only places to get one were walmart or proformence cycle......well....

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Do I wanna save trails you bet! Everytime I ask What has IMBA done for me, I get the same response, Well they are a resource, a big voice from some where else. They are over there.
    [SIZE="4"]
    Ask NOT what IMBA can do for you...Ask what you can do for IMBA[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    The Quads or Enduros as you call them pay form registration for the vehicle at time of purchase. I think the state looks the other way about stopping the misuse of these vehicles. I know the GC doesn't have the man power to patrol and stop the quads. But if it wasn't for the Quads we Mt bikers would not be riding it the woods. It would all be grown in.

    Wow, another sweeping generalization. That may be true up in your rural area, but not in any areas I've come across. The trails I ride do just fine without any throttle twisters on them. And so what if they have to pay for registration? Who pays for the air pollution they spew? I guess all the people who rely on asthma meds to breathe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Yes there are the few who like the Epic. Most Mt bikers are the "I can do it with a Walmart bike even if it kills me, b/c I saw it on TV! Hail the infomericial Landrider bike! LOL
    LOL indeed!

    I'm not sure of why you insist on continuing to post the comments you do, Lee. Especially since you are a business owner who uses each post as a kind of billboard for your shop. You seem to be doing yourself a disservice in the things you say because it will obviously make any IMBA supporter not want to do business with proformance cycle.
    But hey, it's a free country(for now) and an open forum here, so you are free to speak your thoughts, regardless if it goes against your businesses best interests.

  11. #11
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    Listen!

    Moonraker:

    I see the respect just flew out the window because I don't side with you or your view of IMBA!

    How many cars do you own and drive? YOU Pollute also my friend.How do you cut your grass? With scissors? Or are you going to tell me you ride your bike everywhere. Great if you do! There is a view from every angle! Don't bag on me for quads. Many of my freinds ride them. They don't like the spandex wearing mt bikers out on the trails. You know Mt bikers are the slowest form on the trails. Throttle twisters are all about FAST! I ride everything I can get my hands on? MTB MX SX HS VMX DS. I like FUN! Just think for every IMBA guy(there's that IMBA attitude again) who doesn't patronise my business there are 15 quad guys who walk in here. Hunters ride "QUADS" not Mt bikes! I ride my bike to work or my motorcycle or my electric RAD TO GO scooter. Quad Guys spend more money in one day than you could on a custom built Santa Cruz for the year! I am friends with all of them! and I ride with all groups but I don't bring a mt bike to a motorcycle ride. You need to stand HERE and see and hear the imput from the local area. You have the resources from your area, but you are not here my friend. It is nice to be out on a Mt Bike ride when a few Motorcycle or Quad guys roll up and stop to talk to me or ask if I need anything!

    I get a kick out f the imput here! Everyone bags on quads yet "mt bikers want to have trails in SGL". HUNTERS RIDE QUADS! Look close this is great info! The funniest thing is NO one else is begging for trails in SGL! Registration of quads "DOES" matter! They have ATV trails they ride and they don't have to trim, or cut trails! I rode motorcycles at ANF last year. I pulled up and rode. No one asked me to do a thing. It was a BLAST!

    Nice talkin to ya and yes you have some great points. Respect!
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  12. #12
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    Well, I guess I'll add fuel to the fire...Lee, here goes in regards to what you and I talked about in JT that day. Moonraker, the attitude of pollutant throwing throttle twisters and the 'tudes about horses you'll see in other threads is the attitude that Lee, I think, stubbornly and rightfully fights in these forums. The one thing I HATE about mountain biking is that holier than thou, I'm better than you cause I pedal and don't pollute and I am all things Mother Earth and etc, etc, etc that turn off some many people to the real advocacy issues facing the sport. The attitude of Gdammit, we deserve to be able to ride on state game lands and off with the heads of those that dare dispute us is BS! WE, all mountain bikers, DO NOT deserve crap! State Game lands are just that, game lands. Designated for hunting activities in a somewhat controlled enviorment to protect the hunters and public and to effectively manage game herds for the health of the animals and the ecology that support them. Ah, hell, why am I bothering? This will only get a response of who are you, how long have you been riding, what? you only ride a hardtail Ironhorse and not the Ultrabike 2006 with doublewhammy air adjustable with fart controlled seat dmapening that cost 3000 dollars. F it. In closing of this rant...All moutnain bikers do not have to fit a "mold" (interpret that as you will) We can have other interest and hobbies, we do not have to build a trail for every trail we ride. We can just be sensible when we are out there and try to get along with all land users and owners. If we had designated State Mountain Bike Lands, would all you be so quick to readily welcome hunters to access "your" designated lands. Perception is reality and if the general public perceives mountian bikers as elistist snobs, then prepare yourselves for a rough ride. I'm done now, blast away.
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  13. #13
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    chuck, i'm sorry that you feel that way. i remember you emailing a while ago saying that you've been mtn biking for the past year or so and it's a shame that you've had some bad experiences on the trail already. It seems you had some actual experiences of people making you feel the way you do. like i told you, you should come on the multiple rides i've posted to hang out. Funny thing, we live in the same area and haven't crossed paths. I look forward to riding with you soon.

    It's also dissappointing to see that you've met people who think they are owed trails on game lands. I can tell you that I have always had an approach of let us earn our way in with my discussions with the PGC. I've also had some strong rapport with PFSC in the past and some local hunters. You can contact Kevin H(ask your friends for info) he's a local conservation deputy and is very informed of my history with hunters and the PGC.

    There seems to be an argument of "earning" or "deserving" trails.


    P.S. doesn't matter where or how long i've ridden, just as long as we're riding!!!!!

  14. #14
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    Lee, i do have a serious suggestion. With your vast experience with bikes and motors you could help develop relatinships to educate both sides on who we all are. I've had some great experiences with enduro folks up in carbon/monroe counties and we both looked at eachother like "hey, look at those bikes", "hey look at those motorcycles".

    I've seen mtn bikers poach and i've seen just as many quads poach too.

    I strongly suggest you come ride with us and see how we actually interact and maybe your perceptions may even out a little. If not, hey at least the invite's there"

    good riding.

  15. #15
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    Yeah, Joe, I know it's tiring. I fully understand why IMBA exsist and the good it can do. It's just that as you know and I'm sure everyone else knows..attitudes prevail and it seems no one can change them. Did you see my other post offering an idea about kinda working for the GC and selling them that we can help them by observing and reporting illegal uses of the land? I'm not saying Mt bikers shouldn't be allowed access to GL, just that if riders want to access that land, do go in thinking that you "deserve" to be there and publicly bash hunters..I know you don't but you know there are those that do. Hunting has it's place and so does biking. My point is that a person can do both or more and be OK. It seems also and you've seen it that those who build trails sometimes think that they are their own property and that's understandable, alot of work, passion and pride go into it. But don't crucify every biker that can't or won't get out and build. I personally prefer to help clean and maintain. I just think that the stance needs to be more of "Hey..you (insert other land users here) are Ok! By the way, how can we help you, you help us and let's see what can be done.
    On the other point..Joe, honestly, I surprised we haven't met up either. my last good ride was at the Fallen Rider Fund ride at JT and me and Dalton had a blast! I did meet Lee there and he is a really nice guy and he and I share some views about riding for the sake of riding. Also got to meet Lath and Liz, what a nice couple of folks, heck, all those guys were great. I've even ridden with some guys from VMB that I figured would want my head after that rsdmag submission that time. James/Susie and Eric and boy, what great folks. We will ride one day, I'm spending alot of time at jordan due to high gas prices.
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  16. #16
    my church is the woods
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunner1
    Moonraker, the attitude of pollutant throwing throttle twisters and the 'tudes about horses you'll see in other threads is the attitude that Lee, I think, stubbornly and rightfully fights in these forums. The one thing I HATE about mountain biking is that holier than thou, I'm better than you cause I pedal and don't pollute and I am all things Mother Earth and etc, etc, etc that turn off some many people to the real advocacy issues facing the sport. The attitude of Gdammit, we deserve to be able to ride on state game lands and off with the heads of those that dare dispute us is BS! WE, all mountain bikers, DO NOT deserve crap!
    So....from one comment I made about the trails I ride being kept open just fine without trottle twisers keeping them open, you make the assumption I have a "holier than thou" attitude? Sorry if I came across that way. I don't take any of what's written here personally, and I don't judge people by this forum either. I am simply replying to what was written in my own way.

    If you support IMBA, great! If you choose not to, that's fine too. I'm just saying that if I had the time to list all the pro's and con's of IMBA, the pro list would be pretty long, and I don't know of any con's.

    And yes, I do feel like I have a right to share in the wealth of our commons. SGL's are own by the commonwealth of PA....that's common wealth....look it up if you don't understand what that means. These SGL's are currently 'managed' by the PGC. They let logging go on all over these lands, loggers take from the land, and the PGC puts revenue in their own budget. They take in money from hunters, who take from the land, and the PGC puts the money in their budget. Recreational trail users take what from the land???
    Land owned by the people of PA who have allowed the PGC to manage these resources...The PGC is not the land owners....they are just the managers. And as such, are answerable to 'We The People'. Although not directly in this case, because we can't elect these appointed commissioners. IMO, they are doing a bad job at managing things and should be dissolved and let the DCNR take over and actually manage to do something positive with for everyone, while still having hunting as the primary use.

  17. #17
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    Joe:

    Your back!

    Hey no offence taken last night. No racisum here. I'm a memebr of the HUMAN race. I can't spell either!

    So where were we? I don't agree in anyway with poaching. But that has nothing to do with the vehice involved. That has to do with the PERSON who does it. One of my best friends is Don Jacobs from Pa Outdoor life on ch 16 here in the valley. We went to school together and stocked many trout in our day and still do.He did a survey with the Fish comm and they tagged trout. Most of the trout were gone and they couldn't find them. No sign at all! GONE! NO Trace! When I spoke to Don about this he didn't have an answer for us. They are gone! We aggreed the trout developed legs and walked away!

    I think we have covered many good points here on the board! I do like the personal attacks on me! One guys not going to buy from me, another is telling me im being stopped from using my name! Funny thing is most guys here do not post their name and address like you and i do! Must be nice to hide and bag on people.Shows real backbone! Heck my backbone is in place, Anyone can call me, or email me, come here and ***** in person, or just ride with me with any kind of vehicle. Wanna *****, and fish let's go!

    Gunner has a son who is all about riding! This is the future! Do I wanna save trails for little guys like him Hell yes.Can I stop the progress of "THE MAN" NO! I met Gunner and in 1 minute I knew he was just like me. He didn't tell me what kind of expensive bike he had or how he didn't pollute anything. I will plan a ride for him and his kid and others like him antytime! Joe you see people here are listening and watching!

    Gunner:

    I see it in my shop "The I have 7000 mt bike deal" Then a quad guy walks in and asks about shocks for the quad costing 3 grand! Dude your mt bike shock only costs 5 hundred bucks? What a deal! How fast is your mt bike anyways? LOL!

    Joe: You are asking me to do what I already do! When do you want me to help? I have no problem as long as it's not on a weekend when I have a race to do! Joe we need to meet and plan mega rides in all areas for all! I will agree form here on in to just promote rides. Agree to Disagree! DEAL?
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  18. #18
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    Moonraker..Easy, there! Hold up and pass the gear grease! To wit:

    So....from one comment I made about the trails I ride being kept open just fine without trottle twisers keeping them open, you make the assumption I have a "holier than thou" attitude?
    Read the post..i said the attitude, not your attitude.

    If you support IMBA, great! If you choose not to, that's fine too. I'm just saying that if I had the time to list all the pro's and con's of IMBA, the pro list would be pretty long, and I don't know of any con's.
    Agreed, but as far as cons, lee makes some points to consider, as well as Joe makes some on the pro side.

    And yes, I do feel like I have a right to share in the wealth of our commons. SGL's are own by the commonwealth of PA....that's common wealth....look it up if you don't understand what that means.
    If you don't take post personally, why assualt me by assuming, like you did me, that I'm a moron?

    Land owned by the people of PA who have allowed the PGC to manage these resources...The PGC is not the land owners....they are just the managers. And as such, are answerable to 'We The People'. Although not directly in this case, because we can't elect these appointed commissioners. IMO, they are doing a bad job at managing things and should be dissolved and let the DCNR take over and actually manage to do something positive with for everyone, while still having hunting as the primary use.
    Bing f'n O, my friend. THAT is a well put thought and I agree...that's what I'm advocating..let's all work together for a common cause, not entitlement.

    For what it's worth, I asked for it and you did good except for trying to school me on 4th grade constitutional action and policy. I've served 24 years in the military protecting freedoms and rights, pleassssse don't lecture me on how a democratic society works. BTW, not much mtb'ing being done by some of my friends in Iraq and Afghanistan, hard to flow and dodge bullets! It could be worse, we could be there instead of sitting at our computers doing this!
    No harm, no foul! Ride on.. I'll just sit back down here in the back of the short bus!
    Why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?

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  19. #19
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    Moonraker: Read your own post!

    Dude YOU BAGGED ON EVERYONE! Here's some of your quotes the way you wrote and the way you see it!


    I recognise your "what's in it for me" attitude about this issue.

    I'm gald I do so much for so many. Oh ya that's correct you DON"T even know me do you? At least You know my REAL name!

    However, if I were passing through "the valley" and needed a tube, and the only places to get one were walmart or proformence cycle......well....

    Here's where I'm compared to Walmart! Nice of you to think I have near the largest economy in the nation if not the world! Compliment taken! Dude! If you think your stopping here on Sunday to buy anything from me your wrong! I'm Riding or Racing every Sunday! But Walmart IS open! You could try Plain's bike, Sickler's, Cedar, Wheel fun, Main bike,or Around Town. Just some info you dont know either!


    And so what if they have to pay for registration? Who pays for the air pollution they spew? I guess all the people who rely on asthma meds to breathe.

    Quad guys your not left out either! You "money" spewing guys that you are! I guess you don't drive a car? Do you use biodegradable Chain Lube? Where does the rubber that wears off your mt bike tire go? I makes it's way down to the stream where it's TROUT FOOD?


    I'm not sure of why you insist on continuing to post the comments you do, Lee. Especially since you are a business owner who uses each post as a kind of billboard for your shop. You seem to be doing yourself a disservice in the things you say because it will obviously make any IMBA supporter not want to do business with proformance cycle.
    But hey, it's a free country(for now) and an open forum here, so you are free to speak your thoughts, regardless if it goes against your businesses best interests.


    Ok back to me. You dont understand why I post this way, but yet it's OK with you! I guess it's the IMBA or die thing Everyone in the world joins IMBA THEN buys a bike. WOW!


    Thank god the Vikings that were here 1000 years ago didn't know Steel ships "WOULD" float! I guess that's why they left

    So when do you wanna ride with us here in Ruralville? We can go for hot dogs at Walmart after the ride on Sunday. Pick up a few spare tubes! Maybe have them tune a fork or a shock for us? LOL!
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  20. #20
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    just a suggestion: don't assume someone wants your head for your comments you made, and i wouldn't be quick to assume just because someone has an expensive bike they are snobbish. (there's bad perceptions in every form of biking) We're all starting this journey at different times, ages, places, backrounds. I've seen snobby people on nice bikes and i've seen snobby people on wal-mart crap bikes, so to make a statement to that affect is your choice but i remember your article and i was taken back b/c i wondered if it was based on specific examples or your perception. If it's perception than i would suggest to passionately seek out those who you write about and learn about them and why they do or don't do what they do. just a suggestion. Sometimes perception is fueled by others situations and other's feelings about people.

    i did email you about a ride but never heard back. Look forward to the future.

    Regarding the PGC: i did read your comments and like i had said before i have taken that approach for the last 5 years and i think it will result in a long term success for the state as a whole.

    one last thought: i see many times people say "i know i only have a basic bike, nothing fancy etc" or "just my .02 cents" or "i know i'll get chewed out for this one" that attitude breeds seperation. I think the key is to truly listen to eachother, gather other's opinions and go from there. Far too often our society is becoming a society of people just hanging with people they have something in common that way there is no disagreements. Broaden your horizons and ride with as many people as you can. Forget the comments like "that group is too fast" or whatever the assumption is. Just go ride and have fun. Sure there's goofballs out there but there are TONS of good souls on the trail and on the road, the journey is riding with them!

    I know i push the advocacy banner a lot, but i push the "let's ride" banner a little bit more!

  21. #21
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    Looks like this thread has degenerated far past the original topic.

    IMBA is not the be-all end-all to trail advocacy. Some folks do great work without ever associating with IMBA. There's even a second national mtb advocacy group called MTBAccess.

    Sometimes, though, IMBA offers very valuable resources and services to folks who need it for a particular advocacy issue. The Trail Care Crews are by far the biggest aspect of this. If it wasn't for the TCC and their clinics, countless trails would be closed or never even opened because the people doing the advocacy work wouldn't know how to build a sustainable trail to save their lives. They developed a manual that is now used by more than just mountain biking groups. IMBA's staff has put together a great list of techniques that help to gain or improve access including scientific research. They have been great at publishing proven trailbuilding techniques so other bike clubs can use them to improve the trails they maintain. The creation of the mountain bike patrol by IMBA has also helped some clubs gain or maintain access to trails. In some cases, the creation of a patrol group has been a part of an agreement between a club and a land manager to the existence of a trail system.

    IMBA as an organization is not intended to do local gruntwork, however. They will work on national and regional issues and places in dire need of help (Urban Hotspots program, mass Wilderness designations, etc). However, if you want local work done, that's up to smaller groups of dedicated individuals who have the choice of whether to join IMBA or not. Furthermore, making a change in state government typically requires a statewide approach. State officials won't do anything differently if a few folks from Philly or Pittsburgh write letters requesting a change. However, if a group representing bike riders across the state makes requests, officials might be more likely to listen. It works...Indiana is a great example. MTB riders in that state FINALLY gained access to state-owned property just a few years ago when a club representing riders across the entire state stepped up to attend planning meetings and talk to state officials. When the mtb community there was represented by several disassociated local clubs, mt bikers were pretty much ignored by state officials. The same occurred in Ohio. Momentum in difficult cities like Cleveland, Dayton, and Cincinnati didn't start to build until a statewide group formed to work on a statewide level.

    IMBA had very little to do with a lot of the progress I mentioned in the previous paragraph. They show up periodically with trail care crews to help clubs build the trails right, and they've gone to Cleveland to work on the National Parks Service (federal agency) there, but the progress was prompted by individuals on the ground who cared enough to organize and do the work.

    In my opinion, to work successfully with the government, your organization needs to have a similar organizational structure. You need local groups to work with local issues and local government. You need statewide associations and affiliations (sometimes, it only needs to be a name that implies statewide affiliation) to work with state government. You also need a national organization to work with the federal government.

    Along those lines, I would not expect IMBA to have any involvement with the PGC issue here in PA or with any local trail system. They might send a TCC out to you if there's an affiliated club to organize it, but otherwise, you're up to your own devices.

    There are people who have attitudes on both sides of the argument. There is merit to both sides, however the answer doesn't lie on the extremes. People who want every biker, club, and bike shop to join IMBA are deluding themselves into thinking that everyone cares or shares the same ideals. It would be nice for more folks to send IMBA some money for membership, because IMBA is a good cause, however not everyone can or wants to. That's fine. People who say IMBA is worthless to them might be better served to reevaluate their expectations of IMBA. IMBA isn't just going to knock on your door and ask you if you need help. You've gotta send your dues and use the organization in the way it was intended. Use your state rep, form a club, apply for grants, apply for a TCC visit, develop relationships with land managers, state representatives, gov't agency officials, other clubs, etc.

    Sometimes, you can make even more progress by developing allies in groups whose missions are closely aligned with yours. Some mtb groups have affiliated with the Blue Ribbon Coalition (an ATV/dirtbike/ORV group) to improve trail access. Some mtb groups have affiliated with hiking and horse groups. If ATV/ORV users are significant in an area where mtb access is limited, then maybe developing a relationship with those folks would be a better way to improve access for mt bikes.

    The short lesson to be gained from this long post is that a group of people is more effective at bringing about change than a single person. There are a lot of different reasons for that, but by aligning yourself (and your small group) with ever larger groups, you gain negotiating power (whether perceived or real). Namedropping, as it were. Sometimes, all it takes is mentioning that you are affiliated with the INTERNATIONAL mountain biking association will make a difference.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    To all:

    Save your money! Spend it on new Bike Parts! Buy them from Proformance Cycle or Performance Bike! or your favorite shop! Ahh the freedom!

    Now that's the way it is!

    Without a Bike you don't have to worry about Trails or Clubs or Riding! Without a GREAT mechanic you won't be riding for long!

    Please feel free to check my spelling. I'm a "Suspensionologist" not an English teacher!

    This will be FUN!

    Ok have at it!

    Absolutelty! IMBA has done NOTHING to further the cause of mountain biking in PA or NJ. They are great at taking money and using it to open "Fire Roads" in the national forests. Oh wow! They spend most of your money on DC lobbying, otherwise known as wining and dining. The money should stay LOCAL! Check out their 990 on Guidestar.com to see just what they are doing.

    I raise a glass to the ultimate demise of IMBA so that the money can stay local!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMBAman
    Absolutelty! IMBA has done NOTHING to further the cause of mountain biking in PA or NJ. They are great at taking money and using it to open "Fire Roads" in the national forests. Oh wow! They spend most of your money on DC lobbying, otherwise known as wining and dining. The money should stay LOCAL! Check out their 990 on Guidestar.com to see just what they are doing.

    I raise a glass to the ultimate demise of IMBA so that the money can stay local!
    Where IMBA spends its money is nothing secret...I see it every year in the newsletters. It's no secret that the money goes national. If you want your money to stay local, give it to a LOCAL club or spend it on tools or supplies you use when doing maintenance yourself.

    But, for those of us who feel that a national presence, lobbying in DC, the TCC, and IMBA's other projects are worth the money, it's an additional place for us to give money. IMBA is not supposed to replace your local club, and you are sorely mistaken if you think IMBA itself is going to show up in Podunk Pennsyltucky and start spending money to develop trails there. It's not what they're about. Get used to it. If there's no local club in your area, start one, and then you can funnel all the money you want into it and it will stay as local as you want it.

  24. #24
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    Joe:

    I have to comment to you! Sorry I didn't make your ride. My email has been messed up. What ride was it you wanted me to go on? I was at Thorpe to help out and ride.I did read your post of the Monroe/Carbon ATV deal. I posted I would help if I could.

    Joe: I really think you care about people more than anything else here and in your life. But on the real side you know as well as I do there are no crappy bike riders riding with the THE ELITE Super Lung Laden crew.

    Joe, I don't think IMBA backs you up in our area. And this has been my point all along. IMBA doesn't care about PA. But they will take money from anyone. I have seen the bla bla bla IMBA does Bla Bla bla. If IMBA was concerned they would be you know where fixing the problem! Do you think Larry and the Lwayers are going to fix it? I hope they do but it will be years before it does happen. The REAL thing that needs to happen is for a big group of mt bikers to go to MERLI and fix it in one day! Would be nice to see the BIG IMBA bus there also!

    Sorry to keep bagging on Merli! But it is guys like me who won't let it GO AWAY! If Merli is an example of how WE mt bikers can be treated then so be it. We will be Logged to death. This is a big problem in MY area and where is IMBA! I'm not baggeing on you Joe I do realize you have done all you could. On one hand Merli was destroyed by non caring people and on the other hand non caring people IMBA have looked the other way. If I am wrong show me the proof! If IMBA is the connection to the big wigs that control everything then why aren't they there?

    I keep seeing the post of how IMBA bla bla bla bal but it's NOT happening here where I am.

    I think I will close my post with! Hey IMBA show me the MONEY spent here where I ride. And when I say this: "I" is mean to represent all The bikers in my area. It's not about my personal use of the trails or my gaining something to befiit me in a personal sense.
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  25. #25
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    Lee, I don't know you, and you don't know me. I have, however, been involved with mt biking and trail advocacy for years in several states. I really don't see where you're coming from on this. Do you expect IMBA to just show up and say, "hey, looks like you have a problem, here's what we can do for you"? Like I said in a previous post, they don't work like that.

    Furthermore, PA does not have any dire access problems. The access here is actually quite good even through there are hundreds or thousands of miles of trails off-limits in SGLs. Because we do not have any dire needs, PA isn't really on any national access radar maps. We're not in danger of losing hundreds of miles of trails due to wilderness designations or anything like that. I don't know when mt bikers lost access to trails on SGLs b/c I haven't lived in PA for very long, but it seems to me that it's been quite a few years. IMBA is a new organization and only recently began developing the muscle to make a difference on the big issues, so it's likely that the SGL issue predated IMBA's ability to do anything.

    Also like I said before, local access issues are up to LOCAL RIDERS and LOCAL GROUPS to accomplish anything on a local scale. When I helped secure permission to build trail in an Ohio state park, IMBA didn't do ANYTHING. It was up to me and the other riders involved to show the manager that it would be beneficial to the park to have a mtb trail. Nothing major got accomplished until we organized a CLUB to build and maintain the trail. IMBA has never visited that trail as far as I'm aware. The club maintained an affiliation with IMBA and the statewide Ohio club (OMBA), however, because it gave the club additional clout. The club has now secured permission to build trail in a city park and because of the club's IMBA affiliation, the TCC will be paying a visit to the new trail in September.

    If you have access issues in your local area, IMBA has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's outside their realm. You're wasting your energy complaining that they SHOULD be there when you should be funnelling that energy into developing a base of volunteers to do trailwork, organizing work days, and working with land owners/managers on access.

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