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  1. #1
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    Crazy dog lady at Wiss

    I road the wiss last night and had a bad dog experience. Let me first say that I love dogs and have never been scared of them. Also, I don't worry too much about the leash laws as long as the dogs have self control. Last night, aside from the rest of the ride being great, was the worst experience I've had at the wiss. I was approaching a left turn to a downhill where there is a black iron gate with a fence bordering a road. I don't know geographically where this is. Anyway, a lady with 2 giant black german shepards had just come through the gate. I was going to ask to go down the hill first when both dogs, unleashed, approached me barking their heads off. She shouted to me that they were muzzled. And, indeed, both beheamoths had black, metal muzzles, which actually made them scarier. She started down the hill while I was trying to figure out what to do. The one actually tried to bite me but the muzzle got in it's way. Still, scary. So she decends the hill and I sat on my bike watching her go down knowing that if I decended the dogs would get pissed. I was hoping she would go straight and not turn to the right as I do. Another guy had also parked his car by this gate and I asked if she was with him and he said no. We agreed that this was weird. He said the dogs barked at him and that she had left the back door of her car open. After a while I started decending and, OH BOY, she hadn't gotten to the split yet and the dogs started in again. I got off the bike to use it as a shield and for the first time in my time at the wiss and maybe even riding ever, I yelled at her. I told her to control her f***ing dogs or I would report her. She said "please do". I also yelled that they were 300lb dogs which was a stretch but they were probably 125-150 each.

    Now, I don't like causing trouble but these dogs will be doing this to other people. I don't know who to contact or what good it will do but I thought I'd ask here. Friends of the Wiss? Aren't there rangers of some sort? Anyone else ever see this woman and her dogs? Thanks.

    ps.
    I really wish people would stop riding northbound on the whoop section just north of Valley Green. I love to lay the hammer down there.

  2. #2
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    I have had several run-ins with this extremely ignorant woman. Only recently did she put muzzles on those viscious dogs. I actually put my bike between myself and the dogs once, and she ignored me while I screamed and yelled at her. I have been bitten twice riding there, and I have 4 holes in my left arm to prove it. The owner of the dog that bit my foot told me that it wouldn't have happened if I wasn't riding there. (The dog was unleashed) I almost knocked him out, but his wife saved him. Most dog owners are responsible, but, like anyone, there are the few bad apples.
    Bike fleet: Scalpel, Habit SE, Synapse Hi Mod, System 6, TJ CX, Trek Speed Concept 9 series, Niner Air Nine, Ridley Noah

  3. #3
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    Luckily I have only seen this woman from a distance, and have not actually come toe to toe with the Shepherds. But coming from a dog lover/owner (Actually have a white Shepherd) I would have no problem defending myself against dogs like this to whatever extent was necessary. I cannot understand how these people rationalize walking their dogs off leash in a very heavily traveled public park like the Wiss.
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  4. #4
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    Wow, I think this is the same woman/dog trio that almost bit me last summer.

    This occured on the Indian side. She was sitting on a small wooden bridge, and her dogs were playing in the creek. I said hello as I approached her. As soon as I rode over the bridge, the dogs began barking and ran up to me. She was calling them to heel, but not doing much else but sit on her fat arse. Thanks a lot, lady...

    rying to keep calm, I kept pedaling smoothly, not wanting to agitate the dogs any further. One of the dogs did pull back thankfully, but the other continued to hound me. It's nose was pretty much pressed against my left calf as I was pedaling, and it continued to bark and carry on for several more meters.

    To be honest, I was surprised it didn't try to take a bite. Perhaps because I didn't yell and kept cruising along? After a few more meters, the dog eventually pulled back. When I was satisfied the dog was a safe distance away, I yelled back to her to leash her dogs. I don't think she responded.

    Good to hear the dogs are finally muzzled. I wonder what precipitated that?

  5. #5
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    At least in the Wiss, there's plenty of rocks to pick up and throw.

  6. #6
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    Just spoke to someone at Friends of the Wiss about her. Who knows?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdinsj
    At least in the Wiss, there's plenty of rocks to pick up and throw.
    F those rocks dude. I might miss. Mace is coming on my next ride.

  8. #8
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    Sounds like this woman needs to be maced with her dogs.
    Last edited by jdinsj; 05-07-2008 at 11:49 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdinsj
    At least in the Wiss, there's plenty of rocks to pick up and throw.
    I came really close to using one of those rocks to defend myself against those dogs.
    Bike fleet: Scalpel, Habit SE, Synapse Hi Mod, System 6, TJ CX, Trek Speed Concept 9 series, Niner Air Nine, Ridley Noah

  10. #10
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    Man I hate to see stuff like this, its a no win, someone will get bit/hurt and her dogs will be killed.

    The worst part is she will probably have the least amount of suffering from the whole thing, the innocent riders and the dogs will take the brunt of it.

    Mace seems like the only effective option, just make sure you give her a good shot of it for me.

    Ray


    Quote Originally Posted by mrgorth
    I road the wiss last night and had a bad dog experience. Let me first say that I love dogs and have never been scared of them. Also, I don't worry too much about the leash laws as long as the dogs have self control. Last night, aside from the rest of the ride being great, was the worst experience I've had at the wiss. I was approaching a left turn to a downhill where there is a black iron gate with a fence bordering a road. I don't know geographically where this is. Anyway, a lady with 2 giant black german shepards had just come through the gate. I was going to ask to go down the hill first when both dogs, unleashed, approached me barking their heads off. She shouted to me that they were muzzled. And, indeed, both beheamoths had black, metal muzzles, which actually made them scarier. She started down the hill while I was trying to figure out what to do. The one actually tried to bite me but the muzzle got in it's way. Still, scary. So she decends the hill and I sat on my bike watching her go down knowing that if I decended the dogs would get pissed. I was hoping she would go straight and not turn to the right as I do. Another guy had also parked his car by this gate and I asked if she was with him and he said no. We agreed that this was weird. He said the dogs barked at him and that she had left the back door of her car open. After a while I started decending and, OH BOY, she hadn't gotten to the split yet and the dogs started in again. I got off the bike to use it as a shield and for the first time in my time at the wiss and maybe even riding ever, I yelled at her. I told her to control her f***ing dogs or I would report her. She said "please do". I also yelled that they were 300lb dogs which was a stretch but they were probably 125-150 each.

    Now, I don't like causing trouble but these dogs will be doing this to other people. I don't know who to contact or what good it will do but I thought I'd ask here. Friends of the Wiss? Aren't there rangers of some sort? Anyone else ever see this woman and her dogs? Thanks.

    ps.
    I really wish people would stop riding northbound on the whoop section just north of Valley Green. I love to lay the hammer down there.

  11. #11
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    To be truthfull I always feel a good "Get the F*ck Away" usually makes them move. Might just be my accent that makes em move away though...

    I havent had any run in's with dogs at Wiss but had a few back home over the pond. The above seemed to work then! Maybe they will just get confused by the accent over here?

  12. #12
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    Above all this is abuse and neglect of the animals themselves, and this all needs to be reported to the SPCA or some government authority so a dossier can be put together. If something does happen she'll just claim it was a fluke and the first time, whereas if a history is reported they'll have a much easier time of dealing decisively. .

    I ride the Wiss as much as anyone and I've been fortunate to have had few negative encounters with other users. I also walk my dogs in the Wiss, one of which is blind, so I choose primarily to go in off hours, I keep them on a leash at all times, and I keep the blind one muzzled just in case.

  13. #13
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    Maybe they are trained

    You gotta wonder, do her dogs do this to everybody or just to people on bikes. She may be a bike hater so won't care if the dogs bite you. Wiss has a fair share of bike haters. People like this really do need to be dealt with. They ruin it for everybody else. Unfortunetely if you try to do anything, be it a rock or whatever, these dogs are going to kill you. Do what you can to report her if you see her again. Get her license plate number if you see her car and report her to Fairmount Park. FOW has no authority to do anything, but FPC does. It would even be very worth it to call the police, and show them her vehicle. Above all try to be the bigger man, stay calm, and remember that she is an a$$hole.
    Keep crowded trails friendly. Go by slow and say "hello"
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  14. #14
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    man i ride there with my wife and kids i gotta get some mace or something
    how do we go about enforcing the PA leash law there

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lust4singletrack
    You gotta wonder, do her dogs do this to everybody or just to people on bikes. She may be a bike hater so won't care if the dogs bite you. Wiss has a fair share of bike haters. People like this really do need to be dealt with. They ruin it for everybody else. Unfortunetely if you try to do anything, be it a rock or whatever, these dogs are going to kill you. Do what you can to report her if you see her again. Get her license plate number if you see her car and report her to Fairmount Park. FOW has no authority to do anything, but FPC does. It would even be very worth it to call the police, and show them her vehicle. Above all try to be the bigger man, stay calm, and remember that she is an a$$hole.
    The dogs will get through pepper spray?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgorth
    The dogs will get through pepper spray?
    Not sure. Never tried to be honest. I just hope it will not have to come to that, and we can nail her without violence. Don't get me wrong if one of these dogs comes at me I'm gonna defend myself (I don't carry mace so a rock will have to do). But I really really would not want to have to do that and feel it should be a last resort.

    Also thanks for the headsup about this cause I have not seen this lady yet.
    Keep crowded trails friendly. Go by slow and say "hello"
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lust4singletrack
    Not sure. Never tried to be honest. I just hope it will not have to come to that, and we can nail her without violence. Don't get me wrong if one of these dogs comes at me I'm gonna defend myself (I don't carry mace so a rock will have to do). But I really really would not want to have to do that and feel it should be a last resort.

    Also thanks for the headsup about this cause I have not seen this lady yet.
    I'm pretty sure you wouldn't stand a chance against two attacking (un-muzzled) german shepherds, even with a pretty big rock. In the time it'd take you to bend down and pick one up, they'd be all over you. Smartest thing you could do is just haul ass outta there. If they are muzzled, they aren't going to do much damage one way or the other (aside from scaring the sh!t out of people).

    If you do have a run-in with her and the dogs behave similarly to the way everyone else is reporting, make a note of the date & time, and call the FPC. If enough people phone in reports, they may be able to spot a trend (e.g. she walks the dogs between Wise's Mill and Lincoln Dr. every saturday around 2:00... whatever.)
    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  18. #18
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    mace?

    instead of mace get yourself some dog "halt".. it will work if you need it...its a differant composition than mace or pepper spray... (carried by postal workers or utility meter readers) unfortunately it could be that the dogs were sprayed by bike riders and now have a fear whenever they see someone on a bike...

  19. #19
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    Also to bear in mind guys that the wheels on a bike produce a noise unhearable by humans that really annoys dogs. I dont know if thats just hogwash!

  20. #20
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    why do so many people hate bikers there we bring in our share of money to the park most of the riders there are friendly. hope they never kick us out

  21. #21
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    We put the feelers out there to our associates in the park and here's what we got so far from a good source.

    her name is Joanne (unfort no last name)
    she is a doctor of some sort (homeopathic something or rather)
    she lives, or has ofc at, 123 Hilltop, Phil PA 19118 (between Rex and the train tracks near Shawnee in Ch Hill)
    her plate is ESS 6986 (BUT the person did not know if she still drives that car)
    Keep crowded trails friendly. Go by slow and say "hello"
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  22. #22
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    woman's identity revealed. PLS TAKE ACTION!

    I am a dog Walker and oppose leash laws. Just so you know where i am coming from. That said, this nut of a woman is ruining it for us Walkers out there. I am also a roadie and mtn biker when not walking my dogs.

    A professional dog walker friend of mine says that woman is beyond nuts, her dogs are killers, and so on. She says that when she sees her, she gathers her pack of dogs and leaves immediately. She has witnessed serious fights with those dogs where the owner doesn’t even try and break things up and deal.

    Here is what I have got:
    • her name is Joanne (unfort no last name)
    • she is a doctor of some sort (homeopathic something or rather)
    • she lives, or has ofc at, 123 Hilltop, Chestnut Hill (Phila) PA 19118 (between Rex and the train tracks near Shawnee in Ch Hill)
    • her plate is ESS 6986 (BUT the person did not know if she still drives that car)


    Apparently there are existing complaints on record with Phila Police.

    So what are the next steps? It might help if multiple people took the effort to contact the Police. HERE IS THE INFO:

    • Sgt Baker and Captain (Sy) Sayid from the 92nd Precinct have jurisdiction
    • Call the precinct 215-686-7292/-3
    • The area is in the Wissahickon between Creffeld St. entrance and Chestnut Hill Ave entrance (in chestnut hill)


    I WOULD KINDLY ASK THAT YOU REITERATE with the Police that the leash law is not the issue here. This woman is nuts and her dogs on a 6-foot leash would still be dangerous to all.

    Senseless ticketing walkers for dogs off leash will only make them less cooperative. I got this woman's number from another dog walker after only 5 minutes of calling around.


    Oh, uhm, no need to say that macing a dog is awful all-around and will only make them worse. Whereas the owner might just like a whiff of pepper :-)

    Jan

  23. #23
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    I doubt the lady has anything against us, I am willing to bet she is just an inconsiderate idiot to everyone (her own dogs included).

    Now this next part has nothing to do with crazy dog lady, but if it where not for the fact that I make it a point to say hello to other riders, end up spending to much time in my LBS and meeting nice riders, and getting tons of great help here from fellow rides, I would not like us either!

    Prior to me starting to ride again my opinion of cyclist was pretty low, think about where non bikers see us

    city parks where 95% of the traffic is on foot is no place to be ripping 20+ MPH down a path on you MTB, been hit and didn't like it much! good grief there are strollers on the path, thank god it was me who got nailed and not a parent and there baby.

    My Spandex, The mellow walk/bike paths that are used mostly by walkers and people just out cruising around soaking up the sun, is this really the place for Johny road racer to try and break the land speed record?

    The bike messenger, looks so cool dressed in all black zipping along the city street but be damed if I can see them coming when Im on foot let alone driving.

    The newb, to slow to be in traffic but fast enough to scare the hell out me on the sidewalk. (Thats me, there are streets I do NOT feel safe riding on and must use a sidewalk so I go SLOW or usually walk it)

    The protester, you know the cool unshaven ones who somehow manage to lump cycling into what ever fight they are into this month (Anti war, anti meat, anti car, save the rain forest, legalize weed, one less car, hug a tree, make love to a rock.....)

    I am sure they are all wonderful endeavors but really take a deep breath and sell in small doses and dont hurt biking instantly as you try and achieve your long term goals of world piece and vegetable rights.

    I know this sounds very negative but its human nature that the bad things will stick out in your mind, as the saying goes one bad apple can spoil the bunch

    let the flamming begin









    Quote Originally Posted by killzone
    why do so many people hate bikers there we bring in our share of money to the park most of the riders there are friendly. hope they never kick us out

  24. #24
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    jand@mostlyweb.com

    I am a dog Walker and oppose leash laws. Just so you know where i am coming from. That said, this nut of a woman is ruining it for us Walkers out there. I am also a roadie and mtn biker when not walking my dogs

    agreed ive come across plenty of very friendly dogs on the trail but this is nonsense i dont even want to take my family there

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    Quote Originally Posted by jand@mostlyweb.com
    I am a dog Walker and oppose leash laws. Just so you know where i am coming from.

    Well explain to me where you are coming from. I am a well known advocate here in Pittsburgh for enforcing the leash law. I love animals and in particular dogs and cats, but the feelings turn sour when I see someone who does not have their animal restrained in any area other than an off leash area. It kills me to see people take such good care of their animals, getting them groomed and often putting moronic looking clothing on them, but yet let them roam free to go where they will. Some people don't mind if dogs aren't on a leash as long as they are well trained, I say it is disrespectful to let your animal roam free and approach me or anyone else unless we agree to have the dog come towards me.

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    Respect - it's not about the animals... It's about the other users on the Trails... I love dogs more than I love riding which is an absurd amount... I do however have respect for others on the trials that you may come across who for whatever reason may be scared of dogs for no reason... It is not my job to judge them or preach that my dog needs exercise too etc, it's my job to leash my dog and make sure that other person in the woods are enjoying themselves outdoors as much as I am... I always unleash my dogs in the woods when no one is around, they are both well trained and come immediately when called... If I am heading for a blind corner I call them ahead of time to leash them just in case... "Respect" Have some!!! Also, as far as dog behaviour... Turning your back and trying to take off is a BAD thing to do... You must look them straight in the eye and let them know you are not afraid... They will know if your lying... Stand your ground, get through the area and keep your eyes on them... Turning your back will give you a surprise you don't want... Good luck with your situation!!!

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    i'm all for respect and reasonable control of your dogs. That's what the PA State Law stipulates (it “suggests” a leash as an effective means of controlling your dog). In Philly, however, there is a leash law.

    valid arguments can be made on all sides of this. But I find the notion that i have to juggle leashes and thereby inconveniencing passers-by (like bikers) for the sake of people with dog phobias and others with a senseless desire to get people to adhere to the law (rather than its spirit) unreasonable. Unreasonable if there is no end that justifies the means.

    I mean, which would you rather have: a guy with a large stick/club walking his aggressive dog on a 6' leash on single-track 4'-wide trails (happened to me last week), or, me with my mellow crew off the leash and off the trails so people can get by (plus many dogs behave better off the leash).

    The reality is that the dogs in the Wissy provide a lot of security; in their absence many other users would not be able to use the park. Furthermore, the walkers generally pick up a lot of garbage (and do leave feces in return...) and report serious actual issues they run into. And from a practical, trail maintenance pov, I’d much rather have dogs off the trails altogether than on the leash widening trails.

    To me, all this boils down to a basic don't do unto others that you don't want to happen to you. I try to be (very) alert and prevent conflict and am sensitive to people who are afraid. But when i am cutting vines or other trail maintenance work and my idling dog happens to sniff someone who takes terrible offense, oh well... They've got bigger problems than my dog.

    My original point was that is we piss the walkers off by giving them stupid tickets for non-offenses, they might be less helpful in identifying the walkers who are creating real problems. Like this woman and her muzzled monsters. For instance, Rangers were recently ticketing walkers for letting their dogs swim at the kitchen’s lane bridge or for playing catch on the blue bell fields. By virtue of these games, these dogs could not be more preoccupied and pose zero thread to anyone. What’s the point!?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jand@mostlyweb.com
    i'm all for respect and reasonable control of your dogs. That's what the PA State Law stipulates (it “suggests” a leash as an effective means of controlling your dog). In Philly, however, there is a leash law.

    valid arguments can be made on all sides of this. But I find the notion that i have to juggle leashes and thereby inconveniencing passers-by (like bikers) for the sake of people with dog phobias and others with a senseless desire to get people to adhere to the law (rather than its spirit) unreasonable. Unreasonable if there is no end that justifies the means.

    I mean, which would you rather have: a guy with a large stick/club walking his aggressive dog on a 6' leash on single-track 4'-wide trails (happened to me last week), or, me with my mellow crew off the leash and off the trails so people can get by (plus many dogs behave better off the leash).

    The reality is that the dogs in the Wissy provide a lot of security; in their absence many other users would not be able to use the park. Furthermore, the walkers generally pick up a lot of garbage (and do leave feces in return...) and report serious actual issues they run into. And from a practical, trail maintenance pov, I’d much rather have dogs off the trails altogether than on the leash widening trails.

    To me, all this boils down to a basic don't do unto others that you don't want to happen to you. I try to be (very) alert and prevent conflict and am sensitive to people who are afraid. But when i am cutting vines or other trail maintenance work and my idling dog happens to sniff someone who takes terrible offense, oh well... They've got bigger problems than my dog.

    My original point was that is we piss the walkers off by giving them stupid tickets for non-offenses, they might be less helpful in identifying the walkers who are creating real problems. Like this woman and her muzzled monsters. For instance, Rangers were recently ticketing walkers for letting their dogs swim at the kitchen’s lane bridge or for playing catch on the blue bell fields. By virtue of these games, these dogs could not be more preoccupied and pose zero thread to anyone. What’s the point!?
    This is so good I thought it was a troll...First, respect means taking account others that are doing nothing to offend you. You are the one with the dogs, not the other walker, runners or bikers. Second, sounds like you are only concerned with your convenience; ie not to have to juggle leashes.

    The third thing you fail to understand, or maybe you do but you don't want to admit it, is that dogs are animals with overriding instincts and the only way for a humanbeing to truly have instanteous control of a dog is through a leash with a choker. Dogs understand negative reinforcement, period. Unfortunately, their owners, or thier "walkers", don't have the same reaction.

    Fourth, if you really are a rider, you would know the danger that an unleased dog presents to bikers. They may not be vicious, but only want to chase or play, however it can take a biker's attention away-while the dog is nipping at the rider's heels- and those rocks and trees are unforgiving- every mtb'er knows that those low speed falls hurt worse than the highspeed ones.

    Fifth, you theory of trail widening due to having a dog on lease is ludicrous. Please enlighten us as to your support for this one.

    A pitbull- sorry for being non-pc- a Straffordshire terrier taking an investigatory sniff of my calf freaks me out. I reckon it would freak out most mountainbikers, regardless of how poorly adjusted to society we are. The guy with the agressive dog on a 6' leash would be great. I would love for the owner to have it on a leash. That way, when the dog makes a run at me, the owner can yank it back or if the dog attacks, I can pull the owner into the fray.

    Sweetheart, you are theologically no better than the crazy woman with the two shepards. You demonstrate your flawed opinion: it is everyone else's problem that they don't like dogs because you feel it is your right to walk you dogs off leashes and everyone else be damned. If you don't like the leash law, then lobby against it, but the number one negative issue for park users is unleased dogs - followed by mountain bikers; ask the PMBA guys for the survey.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

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    Quote Originally Posted by justriding
    Sweetheart, you are theologically no better than the crazy woman with the two shepards. .
    "Sweetheart"? Why not just call her sugar-tits? It's probably only marginally more sexist.

    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

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    "Sugar-tits" - just awesome. Glad you called me on that; I am disappointed in myself that I wasn't more creative in my derogations.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

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    One user group pointing the finger of judgement at another group.......seems like I have
    heard this before.Your starting to sound like hikers and horseback riders preaching the evil's of mountain biking.

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    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarmark
    One user group pointing the finger of judgement at another group.......seems like I have
    heard this before.Your starting to sound like hikers and horseback riders preaching the evil's of mountain biking.
    There's no question that the woman who is the original subject of the thread is a 'bad seed' whose dogs NEED to be physically restrained.

    But there's also no question that there are a small minority of mountain bikers who are equally rude, ride recklessly and, frankly, in a manner that puts other trail users at risk.

    Just as you wouldn't want to see all mountain biking demonized & prohibited based on the actions of few, the majority of people who walk their dogs at wiss or elsewhere, on-leash or off- don't deserve to be condemned for the carelessness & ignorance of one woman.

    In 15 years, the closest run-in I've had with someone walking a dog in Wissahickon came from someone walking on forbidden drive with one of those 30-ft retractable leashes run all the way out from one side of forbidden drive to the other while the owner seemed oblivious to the clothesline effect it created.

    And, for the record, no - I've never taken a dog with me on a bike ride at Wissahickon because everyone is too quick to flip out and lobby to have one group or another banned from the park. When I do leash my dog, it's for her own safety near roads - not because she's a dangerous menace. However, leash laws taken to the extreme do irk me.

    e.g. I took my retriever swimming at a huge lake in a rural area near my home. The shoreline was deserted for as far as the eye could see. After 20 min or so, a ranger came by and informed me that if I wanted to continue training my dog there, I'd have to do it on a 6 ft leash (which I had in my hand for the walk from the car to the water and back). So - the dog can swim and retrieve training 'dummies' - on a 6 ft leash?? "What am I supposed to do? Swim out & back with her?" I asked.

    His reply. "No, sir. People aren't allowed to swim here. Only at the pool. But you're welcome to continue training her as long as she doesn't swim more than 6 ft from the shore."

    "mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  33. #33
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    For me, the bottom line here is EVERYONE needs to be responsible for THEMSELVES. It means MTB riders ride in control of themselves to not scare other users, dog walkers control their dogs via short leads, equestrians stay off trails when its damp and not dig post-holes on the trails, etc... Unfortunately, the reality of it is that dogs can be a hazard no matter how friendly or vicious they are- they are animals and are unpredictable. A lead makes them at least less of a hazard. I cant count the number of times a dog has stopped or run in front of me which has caused me to take evasive action or go off-trail to make sure I didnt run them over. Its not just about my safety and convenience here, its about the dog not getting clobberd by my 190lb ass because it jumps in front of my wheel. The leash laws are as much for the safety dog as it is for the other trail users, so if we can all respect each others space and right to the trails we could all have a much better experience out there. Also, as a father, I dont want my 3y.o. son to be mauled by a dog that he doesnt know if it is friendly or not when we are walking on a trail any more than I want him run over by a MTB rider who is riding beyond their ability to control their bike. I make sure he is not running around like an idiot, either- to make sure you dont get hurt because he makes a bad move as well as making sure he doesnt get hurt by making a bad move. Hell, if the situation is questionable at all I usually just pick him up myself to make sure he is ok. Give each other some respect by showing the other users you arent there to sacrifice their good day so you can have one at their expense. FWIW, I was a dog owner for 22 years and if my wife wasnt allergic, I would still be one so this isnt me dog-bashing, just giving a different perspective.

  34. #34
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    I agree that the woman in question has no right letting aggressive,untrained dogs run
    around unleashed.That's just plain stupid ! I also agree people" need to be responsible for
    themselves"and show respect to other user groups. I take issue when people make
    blanket statements about dogs[or other user groups] . I have been riding for years in Michaux with unleashed dogs and have had NO PROBLEMS ! When I come up to a hiker or equestrian I stop,call the dog back and hold him while they pass . In most cases they thank me, exchange small talk and move on.As far as taking '' evasive action or going off
    the trail'' the only time that happens is when I am avoiding oncoming mt bike traffic,rattle snakes,turtles,new fallen trees,crashed mt bike riders ,rocks, kids.........I take pride in the fact my dog is trained and listens better than most peoples children. My dog LOVES to go out for a ride as much as myself and the other people we ride with.If your ever riding out at michaux shoot me an email,and we'll ride and you can see for yourself how painless
    riding with a dog can be.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarmark
    I agree that the woman in question has no right letting aggressive,untrained dogs run
    around unleashed.That's just plain stupid ! I also agree people" need to be responsible for
    themselves"and show respect to other user groups. I take issue when people make
    blanket statements about dogs[or other user groups] . I have been riding for years in Michaux with unleashed dogs and have had NO PROBLEMS ! When I come up to a hiker or equestrian I stop,call the dog back and hold him while they pass . In most cases they thank me, exchange small talk and move on.As far as taking '' evasive action or going off
    the trail'' the only time that happens is when I am avoiding oncoming mt bike traffic,rattle snakes,turtles,new fallen trees,crashed mt bike riders ,rocks, kids.........I take pride in the fact my dog is trained and listens better than most peoples children. My dog LOVES to go out for a ride as much as myself and the other people we ride with.If your ever riding out at michaux shoot me an email,and we'll ride and you can see for yourself how painless
    riding with a dog can be.
    I have no doubt that your dog is a great 'trail dog' but the point here is I dont know your dog, or most other dogs on the trail, so how do I need to respond? For my own safety, and the safety of the dog my response is as conserviatve as it can be. That said, it would be a non-issue if the dog was on a lead. Why should I have to adjust my behavior so someone's dog can run off lead? Will your dog adjust its behavior so I can ride like a maniac? Ive ridden with some great trail dogs, so dont get me wrong, I know they are out ther but when I dont know the dog I am forced to react in a defensive manner to make sure no one has a problem. That is why I feel that dogs should be on leads- it isnt respectful to me or any other trail user to make them feel threatened whether or not it is justified because the dog is well behaved or not. Until you know the dog, you must assume it is not well trained. Even the humane society says it plainly- check out the top 10 dog care essentials- #3, Off property, on leash. http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/do...ssentials.html

  36. #36
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    we need a mountain bike park near by

  37. #37
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    Dankilling you seem to" assume" quite alot,and not much based on facts.
    Should hikers assume all mountain bikers rut trails and ride like maniacs,
    should I assume every person in the park is going to mug me because
    I "dont know them".All user groups make adjustments and compromises
    so that we can share the same trails.I dont like avoiding " road apples"
    from horses,but i do it! I dont like stopping for hikers but I do it!
    It sounds like you have a real fear of dogs....why should my ride suffer for that.
    #9 on the humane societys list "give your dog enough exercise to keep him physically fit"
    a fit dog is a BETTER BEHAVED DOG.

  38. #38
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    I was having an issue with my neighbors out of control dogs(pitbulls). So i bought one of these http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp and after using it 2-3 times the dogs are quiet and non-aggressive. The first time sent them running, they definitely were not expecting it.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarmark
    Dankilling you seem to" assume" quite alot,and not much based on facts.
    Should hikers assume all mountain bikers rut trails and ride like maniacs,
    should I assume every person in the park is going to mug me because
    I "dont know them".All user groups make adjustments and compromises
    so that we can share the same trails.I dont like avoiding " road apples"
    from horses,but i do it! I dont like stopping for hikers but I do it!
    It sounds like you have a real fear of dogs....why should my ride suffer for that.
    #9 on the humane societys list "give your dog enough exercise to keep him physically fit"
    a fit dog is a BETTER BEHAVED DOG.
    I don't care how well behaved your dog is, the Fairmount Park Commission requires your dog to be on a lead no longer than six feet.

    I am a dog owner and my dog is very well behaved, but I have no idea how he may react to different people and how different people may react to him on certain occasions. I know how I think he will react based on his prior behavior, but I cannot guarantee that because he is an animal. That is why I keep him on a leash whenever I walk him.

    Prime example of unexpected dog behavior, my dog will spend a day at a pet day care every once in a while. Well, a usually very well behaved dog, is now no longer allowed to be there due to a couple recent incidents where this dog displayed aggressive behavior that it did not before. The owner was surprised and saddend because their dog never did this before.

    Plus I don't see where the humane society states that a fit dog is a better behaved dog. So you're telling me that the fit dogs that Michael Vick had were well behaved?

    How is someone else's reaction to your dog affecting YOUR ride? It's affecting someone else's ride.
    Board Member Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association (http://www.phillymtb.com)

  40. #40
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    Try reading my posts again ricocpa...... I have been riding at michaux! With no problems.
    I had a park ranger tell me to put the dog on a leash so that "he could pull me up the mountain" we were climbing
    and drove away smiling.MY RIDE is affected when a hiker[true story in york PA]
    walks about 100yards out of his way to stop me and tell me to leash my dog which WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM!!! Micheal vicks dogs were beaten and starved....come on give me a break!
    One of the best things you can do for temperment issues is training and exercise.Dont think its true...... ask a vet,consult a training book.
    In all the years I have ridden with my dog and my girlfriends dog, they have never bitten anybody . And in all the years I have seen riders injured none of them were bitten.
    The way this women handles her dogs is not the way most dog owners do.MOST
    owners would never take an aggressive dog to a park.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarmark
    Dankilling you seem to" assume" quite alot,and not much based on facts.
    Should hikers assume all mountain bikers rut trails and ride like maniacs,
    should I assume every person in the park is going to mug me because
    I "dont know them".All user groups make adjustments and compromises
    so that we can share the same trails.I dont like avoiding " road apples"
    from horses,but i do it! I dont like stopping for hikers but I do it!
    It sounds like you have a real fear of dogs....why should my ride suffer for that.
    #9 on the humane societys list "give your dog enough exercise to keep him physically fit"
    a fit dog is a BETTER BEHAVED DOG.
    You are 'assuming' I am afraid of dogs- did you not read my earlier post stating I was a dog owner for 22 years? Did you read the statement that I would still have dogs if my wife was not allergic? If you want to pick my argument apart based on facts, you should at the very least make sure your own are straight first. Any professional animal handler will tell you that approaching an unknown animal with caution is the best course of action. Would you approach a mountain lion or a bear without caution? I doubt it, and it is no different here. As for stopping for hikers and other trail users, yes, stopping or avoiding their path is necessary if we are on a shared use trail and everyone is behaving in a way that is as non-intrusive on each other as possible. Having them walk several-wide across a doubletrack so I cannot pass safely is ignorant on their part as well and is no different than something like an off-leash dog, IMO. Having a mountain biker fly around blind corners is just as bad, so its not an us vs. them statement. As for your last statement- there is no basis of fact or proof on that one, so all I can say is ricopa's Michael Vick comment is dead-on. A fit dog=/= a well behaved dog by default. It may be the case, but one certainly does not equal the other. FWIW, I dont like road apples either.

  42. #42
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    Just to confuse the issue even further: I yield to dogs whether they are on a leash or not. It's not the dogs I am unsure of, it is the owners

    Seriously though, if there is a dog on the trail, there is usually an owner not far away. So you have to yield, no matter what. I would prefer to know in advance that the same courtesy will be extended to me by the owner of the dog.

    PS: I saw an unleashed cat walking in the middle of the trail last weekend. No owner around either. Kinda freaked me out - but we managed to pass each other without incident.

  43. #43
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    All of this arguing is moot. It's against the law to walk your dog in Wiss without a leash, so don't do it.

    Just because I like to drive fast and have a very good driving record doesn't mean I get to speed. The reason why is exactly the same as the the reason for the leash law... You can't know what the reactions of other drivers (or dogs, or mechanical elements such as cars or bikes) will be 100% of the time. So to protect the majority, the minority must sacrifice.

    And since when is a dog that is walked on a leash NOT healthy?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lust4singletrack
    We put the feelers out there to our associates in the park and here's what we got so far from a good source.

    her name is Joanne (unfort no last name)
    she is a doctor of some sort (homeopathic something or rather)
    she lives, or has ofc at, 123 Hilltop, Phil PA 19118 (between Rex and the train tracks near Shawnee in Ch Hill)
    her plate is ESS 6986 (BUT the person did not know if she still drives that car)

    Good detective work! I think it may be Joanne Wingate, not a real doctor but a chiropractor. Here is her office info if it is the same person:

    J Wingate DC
    123 Hilltop Road - Philadelphia, PA
    215-242-1234

    We should bring that bear spray that they sell and give the dogs a shot every time they act aggressive. http://www.tbotech.com/bearspray.htm

  45. #45
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    Hhhmmmm...when did I say a dog that is walked on a leash is unhealthy??

  46. #46
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    Good detective work! I think it may be Joanne Wingate, not a real doctor but a chiropractor. Here is her office info if it is the same person:

    J Wingate DC
    123 Hilltop Road - Philadelphia, PA
    215-242-1234

    We should bring that bear spray that they sell and give the dogs a shot every time they act aggressive. http://www.tbotech.com/bearspray.htm

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    this turned too funny

    Greetings from Florida. What a great read!! This started out as a very imformative thread about a real issue, a weird lady with vicious dogs. You guys supplied information, so if someone sees this lady and she is nasty and her dogs threaten, you can say "Dr Joanne from 123 Hilltop, you need to control your dogs because they are a known problem". I bet that catches her attention and she controls them. Then it turned stupid, the lady who supplied needed info got bashed for saying she opposed leash laws. Who cares if she lets her well behaved non violent dogs run in the woods?? She pinpointed your issue, thank her, than go ride with a little knowledge in you back pocket instead of flaming like beotches.
    PS, talk about disrespect, we have unleashed alligators on the trails down here, I would like to give their owners a piece of my mind!!

  48. #48
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    I hear they are going to lobby for leash laws out west for
    grizzlys and mountain lions.lol

  49. #49
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    Post deleted- not even worth arguing anymore. I guess the law doesnt apply to 'good dogs.'
    Last edited by dankilling; 05-14-2008 at 07:06 PM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarmark
    Hhhmmmm...when did I say a dog that is walked on a leash is unhealthy??

    Were you not implying that a dog that is NOT on a leash is healthier and better behaved than a dog ON a leash? Fogive me if you weren't, but....

    If you were NOT implying that, why did you bring up dog fitness in the first place? Because it wouldn't have any bearing on your argument otherwise....

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