Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 75
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Could we get State Gamel Land Singletrack back??? Yes!

    Well, after a beautiful night ride i had chance to absorb what happened today. i took the day off to meet with a representative of the PGC. With persistentence and patience and the help of a long time advocate friend i had a chance to have a sit down up in state college withthe head of recreareation for the PGC and here is quick summary.

    -there is a potential plan in place for a group to apply for singletrack or a trail to be approved. There is a small window for us as mountain bikers to work side by side with other users to bring back the singletrack we know and love. It was also a chance to have the PGC to see what IMBA and PA mtn bikers are all about. We will have a follow up meeting with the other users to help develop a process where it is a true win/win for both groups.

    Now before all the na-sayers start typing.....relax and be patient. I am approaching this with cautious enthusiasm. I am however confident that something can be worked out where hunters won't even notice other users are there and we won't have any impact on the mission of the PGC. I will inform everyone as i get information.


    So if you don't belong to a club i would say do so. If there is no club i would say create one. Why? because it will be a very specific agreement between the PGC and that group to maintain the trail. If not....bye bye trail. Which i completely agree with. This is a true opportunity to organize and work closey with other users which can only help out sport. Now people will see the true side of our sport and what it can bring to the table. From that will open up opportunities that may have never been there.


    thanks for listening
    Joe

  2. #2
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Hack:

    Hunters, Fishermen, Birdwatchers, Equestrians and, others who use SGL don't have to form groups or work on the trails do they?

    HUM?
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  3. #3
    Freshly Fujified
    Reputation: Call_me_Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,200

    Great news

    Glad to hear headway is being made.

    Bob
    'If Wal-Mart sold parachutes, who would jump?' Frank Havnoonian (quoting his father) Drexel Hill Cyclery

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Plains Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    334
    I would think Lee that those "other " groups, having more of an impact on the State game lands as far as usage, need not to have formed groups since they have a bigger voice right now with the PGC.
    By having "Groups" of Mt bikers start forming and start showing up on work parties or meeting may leave a lasting impression on the powers that be and things may change in the Mt. bikers direction.
    I wish Plains Bike could be more involved in all of this but my schedule and interests in road riding this time of the year just does not permit it, but I do applaud the efforts of both you and Hackamo here.

    Keep up the good work!

    Kevin at Plains Bike

  5. #5
    Dirt Whore
    Reputation: Pedro K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Hack:

    Hunters, Fishermen, Birdwatchers, Equestrians and, others who use SGL don't have to form groups or work on the trails do they?

    HUM?
    this may be an oportunity for us to finally get rid of those bird watching a-holes. they totatly freak me out.


    Hakamo, good work.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    88
    Hey Hackamo!
    Yeh! Those other groups don't have to form groups!!

    Why do you EVEN BOTHER trying??
    Why don't you just spend all your free time on message boards with your thumb up your azz - - dragging everybody else (who actuallly try) DOWN!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    Hum?

    maybe i mis-typed. Regardless of the type of user and/or the influence with the PGC it would be the right thing to do it as a group b/c who benefits if one person just does it. When we build trails it's kind of a lost opportunity if one person works on it b/c you lose the chance to "empower" many more through trail education etc. Plus from an agency standpoint why would you enter into an agreement with just one person. That's a disaster waiting to happen. What is that one person's vision, training, longevity etc?

    I'm sure in some of the urban SGL's a "group" could be 10 people from the equestrian club, 15 from the hiking club and 15 from the montain bike club.

    Lee, no offense but your words aren't offensive, but somewhat "deflating" to me because it's so early in the game and your already "popping the baloons" so if you have any questions i'd be more than happy to answer or find an answer for you. I understand that you may be somewhat pessimistic about the situation and i don't assume to know why, but i also understand it's healthy to have all points of view. Having all those points of view make me stronger in going to the table and being able to be more knowledgeable and better able to make my points.

    enough said......like a may or may have not said; we are in the prelimary stages and the next step is to meet with the other user groups to possibly form a group of individuals who would help the PGC in the actual trail approval process.

    So if you wonder what is imba doing........we'll we're trying to make more opportunities across the whole state, not just in someone's personal trail system.

    i'm sure you had a great ride today in JT. Hopefully next year you can do it again and have an additional SGL singletrack ride!!!!!!!!! there is virtually no reason why it couldn't happen and i'm gonna do my best to work with Lath to make it happen.

  8. #8
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Hackamo:

    Don't get me wrong! I know you are concerned about trails everywhere. We had a great trail ride yesterday at Jim Thorpe! I don't think we used any SGL. Do the powers that be see anything our way as far as being a Mt Biker? There is another approach I would look at. The sporting good shops who sell and, promote fishing, hunting, trapping, and other ideals. If we as Mt bikers do any other sports as I do. I always shop at the local sporting goods store as well as the one near the fishing hole or hunting spot. I always mention I am a Mt Biker to the owner. Usually he tells me of trails or riding areas near his store. This way I am promoting his sales as well as my interest in riding! They have to do business to stay in business.

    Just "Shooting" out an idea!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LititzDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    536

    Good Job

    Joe, I hope none of this brings you down. Hopefully this will make some of what you are doing seem like we are getting somewhere.

    Camp Mack boy scout camp in Northern Lancaster county. 850 acres
    2005-
    Permit to ride $50 selective tree harvest (it is a tree farm by the way) destroyed three great trails. Boy scouts had a promise(from a non-IMBA/Club rep) that IMBA would come fix the trails. Nothing happened. Promise broken.
    I contacted Joe and got involved with SAMBA. Spent time with Brian and Andrea on building trails. Proposed SAMBA adopt the camp, and work with the land manager to make positive impact.

    2006- Permit was negotiated to $25. We just finished our first work day and 25 out of 37 permit holders donated over 100 hours to closing unsustainable trails and building two new sections that are sustainable. The feedback was overwhelming, from the land managers to the permit holders on the great trails we created. We will continue to support the BSA and work to improve the trail system at Mack and hopefully with your work, maybe we will have an opportunity to include SGL 156.

    Thanks Joe

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    defintely not down at all. Actually i'm pretty positive about the opportunites it could create. The big factor is how organized people get to work with their local land manager. The PGC isn't gonna be "hey we're sorry, here's your singletrack, just go ride it."

    i hope this will bring place back like jim thorpe, lambs gap, gretna etc.

    great job with camp mack. Solid relationship, solid work, solid results.

  11. #11
    ganginwood
    Reputation: ganginwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    481
    lee,
    of course the hunters don't have to form a group. they spend millions a year on licenses, donations, etc.... which goes towards maintaing roads, feeding wildlife, paying salaries, and keeping up the forests which we all want to be a part of. how has the mountain biking community contributed to these causes?
    i myself purchase a hunting license each year just so i can claim to be part of this contribution.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jim Thorpe Trails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    184

    Good job! Good job, we're ready to take on Broad Mt. any time.

    Joe, it's sounds very positive! We now have over 60 member in the JTTC and have started to build some very positive relationships with local Jim Thorpe businesses. We will be having an official Jim Thorpe Mountain Bike Adventure “thank you” picnic/ride and JTTC meeting soon. Would you be interested in coming and letting us know how we might be able to move forward? Liz has also been asked to address the JT Chamber of Commerce soon so that might be another good opportunity to move this issue forward. Drop me an email and let’s talk. Thanks, Lath
    Jim Thorpe Trail Coalition
    http://jttrails.wordpress.com/

  13. #13
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Quote Originally Posted by ganginwood
    lee,
    of course the hunters don't have to form a group. they spend millions a year on licenses, donations, etc.... which goes towards maintaing roads, feeding wildlife, paying salaries, and keeping up the forests which we all want to be a part of. how has the mountain biking community contributed to these causes?
    I myself purchase a hunting license each year just so i can claim to be part of this contribution.
    Agreed:

    We pay TAXES! That's good enough reason for our use! Hunters do not OWN gamelands! As your statement reads.
    Why are Hikers, birdwatchers, fisherman, and others allowed in and, they dont work? I just don't understand why Mt bikers have to foot the bill. Don't get me wrong I would be there to help build any trails. But we are not seeing the big picture! Why do we beg for use of SGL? There are lots of places to ride!

    Look at this point of view: Wouldn't it be fuuny if all private land owners who grant access to hunters asked for a fee and for the hunters to build trails and clean their proprerties then Mt biker could just go there and ride with out doing any work! Hunters would cry and cry and cry!
    One more thing Hunting licenses don't pave roads The State Does! The Monies form hunters goes into the state kitty the state decides where it will be used! Just like ATV monies are not garranteed to build ATV trails

    I buy a fishing license, I get to fish anywhere as long as it is not private land. I don't stock the fish, empty the garbage cans, build access or do anything else. Do we need a state mt biking License? Pay for a year then we can ride, No work! Just some more BS to ponder!

    Been around a while not going anywhere fast! I like it that way!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    430
    Hackamo is this what you are saying. A mtb bike club can be formed and said bike club can pick out one or two or more sgl and tell sgl commission they would like to maintain trails on these lands? Then said club and members pay sgl commission to ride these trails at anytime other then Hunting season? If so not to bad but did they not try this approach before, I forget?

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    so far there is no permit or "Stamp" system proposed. The word club can be any user group. Contrary to what is being said on this thread it's not specific to mtn biking. To my knowledge this hasn't been done before. I know there are very sparse situations of singletrack approved but most of this process will be up the local land manager but there will be a checklist in place that will hadnle all of the requirements.

    Example: American Standard
    -the JTTC approaches land manager with an interest in opening it back up. JTTC willdownload application and fullfill all the requirements. The land manager will look it over and application will be forwarded to "trail consultants" which will be made up of mtn bikers, hikers, equestrians etc. They will provide imput on their expertise i.e. trail construction, slope etc. Then land manager will check off to see wildlife and habitat impact and the JTTC will enter into an MOU that would lay out responsibilities.

    The feedback would entail possible trail re-routes, trail avoidance areas etc. One that is fullfilled i assume long story short the trail will now be opened up.

    That is a very rough scenario of what could ocurr. What i am cautiously watching is what kinds of requirements will be needed. Will they be too much to make it even happen? or simple re-routes etc. There are plenty of singletrack that we're not talking about building new trails but legalizing existing ones.

    another great example is in our area where were opening up 9 miles of trail at trexler game preserve but could extend it a lot more with the adjoinging game lands of which are already used by hikers etc.

    does that answer the question?

    thanks, Joe

  16. #16
    Hoopy Frood
    Reputation: khill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    255
    Hackamo (or anyone else):

    Can you point me to an online resource where the PGC outlines their objections to mountain biking on state game lands? I realize it's been an established stance for a few years but I've yet to see a decisive list of their issues with mountain bikes.

    It's very difficult to successfully argue against something if the opposition has never had to clearly enumerate their side of the argument. If all we're confronted with is vague accusations and no facts, it's impossible to present a compelling case.

    Whenever these advocacy threads come up, I always get the feeling that many people are of the "Please, can we share your land?" mindset. While that's ok, I think a more effective approach might be, "It's a bike, not a sherman tank. What do you think it's going to do to your land?". I'm not saying we shouldn't do trailwork or offer our support but we should ask why we're not being treated as equal users of the land with equally valid reasons for access as hikers, equestrians, and other non-hunters.

    I get the feeling that mountain bikers are rarely confronted with a clear and concise list of the reasons why the can't access certain areas and this builds resentment in our community. Maybe it's because the non-biking public thinks cycling is an activity for children so they treat us like children.
    Last edited by khill; 05-08-2006 at 05:31 PM.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

  17. #17
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    KHill
    Here you are right from the SGL page! this is where you can ride your MTB. Also read my post: Trails for all in Pa link ~~~~~ on this PA forum

    Pa SGL designated Routes
    To all:

    Just some more info on places to ride even in SGL! These are designated routes set by SGL officials!

    http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/browse.asp?a=480&bc=0&c=69913&pgcNav=|

    DESIGNATED ROUTES for Horses and Bicycles
    For each region, there is a list of designated routes. These route designations, which total more than 1,000 miles, are in compliance with State Game Lands use regulations that went into effect on February 1, 2003. Under the new regulations, anyone who rides a non-motorized vehicle, conveyance or animal on State Game Lands must do so only on designated routes. Such riding activities will not be permitted, except on Sundays or on roads open to public travel, from the last Saturday in September to the third Saturday in January, and after 1 p.m. from the second Saturday in April to the last Saturday in May. This does not apply to anyone lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing on State Game Lands.
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  18. #18
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829

    Hackamo Here's your chance

    Joe:

    We all know why, what, and where, we CAN"T ride! Your posts are very Vague on how we all go about doing this thing we all want! Tell us in order how you and/or your IMBA crew would form a plan of attack! We are all listening!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwnhlldav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    I didn't really have time to read through this whole thread, but a comprimise I have always (since they got closed) thought would be acceptable would beto close the trails to MTB and other users during hunting season except sundays.

  20. #20
    Hoopy Frood
    Reputation: khill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    255

    Thanks for the links but you missed my point

    I know that there are policies regarding where and when we can ride on SGL.

    What I'm looking for is a clearly defined set of arguments by the PGC (or any state-sponsered group) which outlines why our access to the SGLs is limited to those trails and times.

    It would be one thing if mountain bikers never had access to those lands. However, that access did exist at one time (as I understand it) and was then taken away by the PGC. I want to understand the rationale behind that decision so we can refute their arguments on a point-by-point basis. Or, if they can't provide the reasons behind the exclusion of cyclists, we can understand that we're dealing with an irrational bias. In either event, I think this line of questioning will clarify our (and equestrians') chances of achieving equal access with other users like hikers and birdwatchers (who aren't mentioned in the restrictions on the links you provided).
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    430
    This is part i do not get. Why does land manager have to get with other groups to allow bikers to use land? I would think he would either get with sgc to get ok for this plan. You would know more than me but I guess if a bird watcher does not want bikers on the land how much input of that thinking goes into land mgr decision. Also if it is alot, are you not wasting your time? since these fanatical people (birders) could just keep telling him not to do give ok for bikers? Again not (i) not being clear on the process would think it is a crazy snafu on the sgc part if this really is decision process? Are the landmgrs the state forest managers too? Do you know if forest dept and sgc one and the same? Only asking?

  22. #22
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    I would guess it to be Mt bikes and Horses will disturb the natural propagation of animals living in SGL. Hikers and Humans birdwatching are not as much of a threat as a Big animal like a horse or a metal Mt bike.Less Terrian damage? You can see I posted to Hackamo about defining a Clear plan for all of us to assume!

    It truly is amazing guys who hunt will ride in SGL with their quads to scout deer and other animals. But they are banning the Mt Bikers! Don't get me wrong quads are great! Just ironic how some use them!

    Do you fish? Ever read the book they give you at the time of license purchase. It is really overkill as far as rules go. It seems to me the more confused the public is the easier it is to fine them. There are way too many rules and they know no one can follow them all.
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    Just back back from ride so i need to sleep so i will be brief.

    as far as the plan goes; the PGC is going to approve/dissapprove this internal process in july. Technically we are already implementing "the plan." The downside of the PGC is it approve these processes w/o public input. In june like i said before we are meeting with the PGC and other user groups to discuss how this will be all implemented. The reason for having people like mtn bikers and other users review these application is now it becomes a partnership and you have input on both sides. It's a good move for the PGC to involve other users for public relations. They are in dire need of funding and that works in our favor b/c now they have involved other users. That's exactly what we told them years ago by excluding other users they are going to lose and with deer herds declining hunters etc this is where we step in.

    Lee, i'm glad your listening but it really gets tiresome with your attitude of "so what are you guys gonna do, and imba blows" attitude. I don't know what to tell you anymore. I will never meet your standards and so be it. I only have time to do things the best way i know how. I have many friends inthe advocacy realm whom i hope respect the way i've done things and i beleive that's what has allowed me to get to the table at some of these discussions. Trust me, i don't beg for stuff like trails and your approval. I act professional, hold people accountable and have personal standards i set for myself. As you can see i am in it for the long haul not only with advocacy but the sport itself. I also respect your long history with biking like but in the trials days, but i need to move forward and honestly all your posts do is slow things down.

    as far as the "mtn bikers cause impact" you won't really find that anywhere. There was always a "don't ask don't tell" attitude with the officers and users. Well as populations grow so does intereaction and then came the PGC cutting down on access. They do have designated trails but as i told the guy on friday i appreciate the trails but you essentially allowed us to "hunt in a parking lot". I don't think that impact is the problem. It probably is funding and pressure from the hunters not about mtn bikes but other users in general.

    One thing i notice is the concept of private/public use of these lands. The SGL's are "special use" with a specific purpose of wildlife protection and propogation. They are managed in a completely different mindset than say DCNR lands. DCNR are more recreation and count heavily on timber while PGC is fueled by hunting liscences etc. In a sense it does give them the right, but they are helping us out in a way......they are protecting land that will hopefully be protected for years to come from urban sprawl. They depend heavily on private land donations, other conservancy group land swap deals. It's just a different mindset than state parks. I like the SGL's in a way b/c they're more primitive and provide a truly different experience on the trails. The problem with their mindset is they don't understand trails and what it takes to do them the right way. So in life when people don't know about something they either disagree with something new or don't progress on things like singletrack.

    alright now i sleep.

    i hope i can answer your questions so if i have confused your or am vague continue to let me know and i will do my best.

    thanks,
    Joe

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    5
    is there a web site for JTTC? How do I join? New to the JT area and would like to help out?

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jim Thorpe Trails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    184

    email me to join JTTC

    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtworld13
    is there a web site for JTTC? How do I join? New to the JT area and would like to help out?
    Hi, welcome to the area and thanks for your interest in the JTTC. We do not have a website yet, we have a local offer to host one but I don't have the time to put a page together, any takers? Email your name, address, phone number, and email address to me at jttrails@hotmail.com. I'll send you a bunch of trail maps and put you on our email list for upcoming events. In the next couple weeks we will be hosting a picnic/ride and JTTC meeting to discuss upcoming media coverage and the game lands issue. We are also going to be starting weekly rides soon. Thanks for your support and welcome to some of the best mountain biking in the country. -Lath
    Jim Thorpe Trail Coalition
    http://jttrails.wordpress.com/

  26. #26
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Joe:

    Thanks for the info. I didn't in anyway bash you or IMBA in the last posts! I will throw out ideas that are off the wall. That is my way of waking up the ideas that should be told. You know I don't agree with you on many points. No problem. Good to see you have many great ideas. I do know there are a lot of people who are on the fence as far as SGL goes.

    So SGL needs money now! They need to educate the General Public on how things work. They need to be OPEN to us! You and/or IMBA should draw up a plan and present it to all who are involved! If IMBA really cares this is their chance to show. It could be used as a model for future use. So it is a worthy investment.

    People will ask questions, but people are also like sheep just lead and they will follow. I am the Black Sheep / Wolf who is just waiting to strike. I have seen it all before and it has been done to me as far as "oh please help us" only to be told to me and my friends asked not to ride there after we did all the work!

    If SGL needs our help let them come to us. Do we really need SGL? Why do we want to ride there? We don't need to. Joe it's kinda like the new car in the window. Lot's of hype but the one out in the lot is just as good as the one in the window. Do you represent the "real guys who are out on the trails" or is it just to inflate some personal desire?

    This is NO way a personal attack! Just questions and exposure! I would expect you to ask me the same questions.

    I never SLEEP!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    42
    why not simply buy a hunting license? pin it to your back and if stopped, say you're "scouting for a place to hunt". the issue is, to my understanding (just moved from PA) that the SGLs were purchased not with "income" tax dollars but with license revenue and revenue from ammo taxes (pittman robertson act). the problem becomes, hunters essentially paid for this land and have their hunting ruined by cyclists, hikers, equestrians, etc scaring off game during hunting seasons (intentionally or unintentionally). i never rode SGLs when major hunting seasons were "in". i usually rode them on Sundays when hunting is illegal. to bridge the gap, one needs to recognize that the land was purchased by hunters and shooters for hunting and shooting not general use. after that is understood, then you can start to advocate co-use at times when hunting seasons are closed or on non-hunting sundays. trying to demand free, open and equal access will result in the same type of response as standing outside a party you weren't invited to demanding to be let in.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    40

    benefit to the neighbors

    Hackamo,
    Like some others here- I am very interested in this process. As the IMBA rep I'm sure you're focusing on the statewide picture and not just regional/ personal benefit. Regardless I would like to know the process and the players on their end that "we"(others -group and non-group) can possibly provide assistance. It sounds as if you are certainly shouldering the effort well. But I've seen compromises in the past come down to only benefit the select few.

    I know this can be difficult in this forum w/ the "Black Wolf" playing the "sky is falling" in alot of situations and causing undo friction...
    Lee, If you have your trails to ride good for you. If HacKamo, IMBA and others gain access to other previously unaccessible land- why should you oppose? I can appreciate looking at things from different angles but if you oppose this effort (Not sure why) you should just let it be. Ya, Scranton and the Wyoming Valley is great. Tons of coal pits and dirt tracks to ride for eternity. Other places of the state are not so blessed to have a bounty of land to enjoy. A huge amount of PA residents and riders live were there is less public land. The land that often exists in close proximity is SGL. That, and I would like to pride myself in my state that has great riding in the wonderful Penn's Woods. We are way behind in utilizing our resources wisely and sustainably.
    If you not for it- Don't fight it w/ 2 wheels under you- join the cratchety old hunters we may potentially hafta face. I find there no better way to find gobbling turkeys than by 2 wheels....

  29. #29
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Roadkill and all:

    That was Chicken Little that the sky was falling! No Matter! He was Scared I'm not!

    The "Black Sheep/Wolf" is just here to see the master plan is exactly what you say." For the benifit of the many not the few!" I'm still waiting for a plan put out here so we can ALL understand how IMBA and others are going to go about the big process! They won't tell ya will they?

    I have lots to ride here. But I also ride ANF, and know rangers out there. I'm not hooked on Wyo Valley. Jim Thorpe, ANF, Kettle Creek watershed, Sproul and Susquehannock state forests Are all concerns of mine. As is West Virginia Hatfield/McCoy.

    I have heard the promised before. If you spent hours upon hours to clearing, working, and developing trails just to have a rangers job change hands and tell you to take a hike then later ask for help to clear the trails so fishermen can fish, how would you feel? I'm not opposed to anything! Show me the plan on paper and do it! Do you really think this forum will be the cause on any major developments? IMBA is great at Horn blowing when it goes their way! Funny I was at Thorpe and guys were coming to me thanking me for being in this board! I represent the plain old mt bikers who just like ot ride! I don't need a club or a organization to do something. Others are asking Joe for a definite way of progress. Sorry Joe but you keep it from us! Sleep is more important! LOL

    Just some info:
    You can approach land owners and there are many ways of them allowing you to ride their property! Remember I'm nobody! I ride at one place where he used to grow Hay. We pay him for what he would have made on the Hay and we have a track there. It's not much. The landowner is thrilled he doesn't have to do all the work involved with making Hay. Some day I will get a big infomericial on TV with a book for sale on ways to gain land access. By the way we have been there for more than 20 years! It works!

    Till then just ride! You can Sleep, or you can talk to people! Hay is cheap my friend!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  30. #30
    Hoopy Frood
    Reputation: khill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by endoh
    why not simply buy a hunting license? pin it to your back and if stopped, say you're "scouting for a place to hunt". the issue is, to my understanding (just moved from PA) that the SGLs were purchased not with "income" tax dollars but with license revenue and revenue from ammo taxes (pittman robertson act). the problem becomes, hunters essentially paid for this land and have their hunting ruined by cyclists, hikers, equestrians, etc scaring off game during hunting seasons (intentionally or unintentionally). i never rode SGLs when major hunting seasons were "in". i usually rode them on Sundays when hunting is illegal. to bridge the gap, one needs to recognize that the land was purchased by hunters and shooters for hunting and shooting not general use. after that is understood, then you can start to advocate co-use at times when hunting seasons are closed or on non-hunting sundays. trying to demand free, open and equal access will result in the same type of response as standing outside a party you weren't invited to demanding to be let in.
    I totally agree with you about not riding during hunting seasons and not disrupting hunters when they're enjoying their sport. Hunting has a great tradition in Pennsylvania and I don't think anything mountain bikers do to gain access to the SGL should effect the primary use of that land: hunting.

    I do think that we would all be better served if all parts of the SGL were open to riding off-season and on Sundays in-season (except for areas designated as specially protected for environmental reasons or animal repopulation).

    Just as with most other matters, I think we need to respect the other users of the land and, in return, they should respect us. However, I don't think we should be forced into ownership of the land in order to use it. After all, if the hunters can just buy an annual permit to use the land, why not mountain bikers, too? I would buy an annual permit/license as a show of support as I live in an area that doesn't have much SGL around. It would be an easy way for mountain bikers to add to the PGC coffers and for us to have an effective voice in the political scene.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    Lee, to copy and paste all your "non-bashing" responses would take quite a while. I've run into the black sheeps before and i have no worries.

    As far as this befiting the few, i don't really get it. This process would be throughout the state not just someone's back yard. So to make that accusation might be untrue.

    Also for you to represent the "plain old mtn bikers" confuses me. Is that to say i'm not a plain old mtn biker and are you implying i represent only certain types of riders?????? either way it's a pretty big jump for you to make since you've never met me.

    For you to imply that i do this for personal exposure or gain of some sort completely blows my mind. make one example, please!

    you think your being the voice of reason but i wonder if it really divides people. I'm sure everyone was very excited to see you on sunday. That's the strength of that gathering was to unite mtn bikers and the more we "interact" face to face with eachother the stronger we will be.

    Here's the plan and it's pretty simple:
    1. we are meeting the pgc in june and other users to review the PGC process to approve trails. Input will be given and final plans will be presented to the PGC. Once approved people will apply for singletrack and will proceed as above.

    In the mean time once i get more concrete information from the PGC i will use communication channels to get the word out to clubs and the public through imba's database etc. We will also try to provide trail education through the PGC to land managers to help them interepret the process so they can make informed decisions.

    That is the plan as of right now and will obviously change. Any input please email me at transue@msn.com

    do we need SGL trails?? if you can't answer that then maybe we're at different parts of the process.

    In the end of this whole discussion i get more enemies than allies and locally has proven it. I truly wonder if this is worth it. not playing the victim but what could be a true success becomes a synical sour outcome.

    the more i ride the less you make me feel like a regular old mtn biker.

    this all seems bass ackwards!

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    i read your recent posts again b/c i read that you in NO way made personal attacks and maybe that's why you were greeted so nicely was because there are those out there who i'm sure like to see someone battle me.

    i'm still shaking my head in disbeleif at the the amount of assumptions made based on NEVER TALKING OR RIDING WITH ME! Do you vote officials in just because of a commercial you see?

    Lee, the bottom line is I DO REPRESENT THE GUYS/GALS ON THE TRAIL, WHY???????? BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS OUT ON THE TRAIL, EVERY DAY OR NIGHT, AT EVENTS DOING EVENTS, RACES. I LIVE AND BREATHE THIS SPORT OF CYCLING, SO MAYBE I REPRESENT YOU MORE THAN YOU'LL EVER KNOW!

  33. #33
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Joe :

    You really seem to defend yourself quite well! Why? I'm not bashing you I even put it in my post! I have nothing to defend here. Black Sheep/Wolf is just the term for the other side, the way I see things. I'm not trying to scare anyone, no sense to that!

    As far as benifiting the few. Joe it would be exactly as you say it would. If there were no interest in an area as far as trails go there would be NO trails. ex Jim Thorpe. Did you walk away once because of no interest or do I have to dig up that post? Lath even questioned you! The most well know trails in the nation if not the world. Still no bashing going on here just conversing. If you take it personal it is you who bear the burden of the words not I. OK?

    Plain old mt bikers are guys who are just here to ride. They don't care about you or IMBA or I or what we have to say. OK? Got that? Still no attack going on! Just answering your post to me!

    Joe as far as the meeting at Thorpe. People came to me! OK? You where mentioned by name and bashed. Funny thing is ~~~~~~ I stuck up for you! Saying he has his ideas and some are good. Just as I tell you on here. Still no bashing! OK?

    Now enough crap!

    Joe:

    You are the guy out in the light! People want to see something happen! You don't seem to realize that I'm not bashing you for this. Wake up!

    Thanks for posting the progress!

    Even "Lee" is invited to some special rides!

    Merli I'm still mad for that! Another story
    Next!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  34. #34
    Dirt Whore
    Reputation: Pedro K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    297
    I didn't take the time to read all of the ******** crying back in forth (ok so skimmed it a bit), but you both seem like really good guys who want to get things done for Advocacy and the community.

    That being said, message boards are horrible places to discuss things when the turn into debates, things gets taken out of context and escalate pretty quick. I think the MTBR PA thread only ride is a great idea!

  35. #35
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Hee Haa:

    Fired up now!

    Joe:

    Here in the valley we vote officials in buy the way we recieve word of the "good old boys" You know money talks! LOL!
    Ya TV is great and we even have Cable in the Valley! Logging also!

    Why so mad dude?

    So:

    Ok I have raced at Coburn years ago around 1980 something. Remember when Mt Bikes had no suspension? You were there weren't you? I had one of the first pair of Rock Shox forks in the valley. Remember the RS1's Paul Turner Ring a bell? I'm sure you had them also. How far back do you go? Remember Bob Grove? Yes, I ride lots and I have lights for my bike. What do I win for doing this?

    Joe: I was at Thorpe "first" for the support of someone I also didn't know, and second and of a way lesser value "THE RIDE" I didn't know people were nice to me b/c I battled with you.! Remember, I don't know you! Maybe you were there? So people are nice to me because the whole world knows I battle with you. I never knew I was important! This might be a career for me! What do I charge for this? Guess I have to share with you do I? LOL

    I too have helped, hosted, and raced many events form the day mt bikes hit the trail and we called Fat Tire races! So we have something in common.

    Why do you get mad because I have a "WAY" different view of ideas. If your ideas are solid people will decide for themselves what is right for them. Do I have to agree with you and IMBA or I am wrong? You said you weren't scared? Correct? Where is this going anyways? Anywhere? I'm glad you support me Thank You!

    See ya Joe: Going Riding!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    it's Bill Grove.

    in the end if this all works out then wether you agree with me or not, have the same or different views, ride whatever or however you want as long as the sport can grow and have places to ride. The more places to ride the less impact on one place.

    i started this thread to inform and i'm done for now. I'll keep you posted on what I know. If other people do other things post it on here if you want to keep everyone informed.

    my gut feeling is american standard will be open by this time next year(and many others)
    and that's the bottom line.


    you never know, maybe i'll pop on in for a tuesday night ride and meet some of the good old boys.

    if you ever want to ride down this way just let me know. Jump in your car, we're going tonight.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    493
    This is the fourth response to this thread I've written since Saturday. I deleted the other 3 before I hit the 'submit' button.

    Joe - I appreciate that somebody is trying to make things better, so thanks for your efforts.

    Where I have problems is what's being discussed and how these discussions are taking place. Perhaps IMBA is most visible, so you got a seat at the table. Problem is, IMBA does not represent all PA mtb'ers, which is the point that Proformance is trying to make, I think.

    3 years ago, we had 100% access to SGLs. The PGC made claims that they were going to lose the Pittman-Robertson funds because of recreational users. I think it was the horses they wanted to get rid of, but mtb'ers were an easier target. They took a couple close-up pics of mud puddles with tire tracks through them, blew them up to 2ft x 3ft and paraded them around the state in a series of "hearings". Anybody who went to one knew it was a done deal from the start. So maybe we're a little leery when it comes to dealing with the PGC.

    Now, the PGC is on the verge of insolvency. They've alienated their core constituency through a controversial deer management plan, logging deals, and eco-tourism. There's a bill pending in the legislature that if passed, will quadruple the amount they must pay school districts in taxes. They know they can't increase license fees. Now, mtb'ers are "good enough" for them again.

    IMBA should be pushing for 100% access unless there is a legitimate reason to close a trail, not the other way around. Any approval process put in place will just become a way for them to string us along indefinitely if they want, and will allow for local political dealings all over the state. There was never any proof that bikes were doing any damage - remember it was because recreational use would forfeit the P-R money. So...therefore since that no longer seems to be a concern, there's no reason why we shouldn't once again have 100% access. Somone once said, "if you want a dog, start asking for a pony".

    I don't want to join a club in order to ride a trail. Many of us are in this sport because we're not the organizing/joining type. Otherwise we'd be playing softball or bowling.
    Please read the article in the latest edition of Mountain Bike magazine about the club in Okla. that entered into a joint deal with the state to maintain a trail system. A 60-yr old guy crashed on a bridge the club built and sued. The state wiggled itself out of the lawsuit and now the club is left holding the liability bag. How many people you think they'll get out for their next trail maintenance day?

    Anyway, that's my opinion. You can take it or leave it. Some might think this discussion is pointless, but I appreciate Joe's posting anything here. The secret meetings could have gone on and we could've just been reading a press release in July. "IMBA rescues PA singletrack..."

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    gt, all great points and i like you were at many of thepublic meetings and it was grossly negligent of the PGC to post vernal pools etc and say that's the problem. I actually called the head of the PR funds and there was never even a threat of losing monies.

    You're right that IMBA doesn't represent all mtn bikers. If Lee wants to start up something, i will gladly step aside and you have my word on that. The cycling community needs to unite, that's just my opinion. I've seen what dilluting a group can do! Anyone can call up the PGC and ask to be invited.

    You can't just say "i want a pony" you have to present your case on why you want the pony and the dog.

    As far as the club thing goes, i know my critics are watching, BUT you don't have to ride on my saddle with me to make a difference. I've been told the "i don't have to be vocal like you to make a difference" and your right, you don't have to join a club and you can ride by yourself, but the day WILL come when access becomes an option and you alone can't do it. I have many examples of this exact situation. People want the club to put their neck out but they do some work and never support the club then when conflicts come they post "what is the club going to do".

    do you think the equestrians have "just buy liscences and ride by yourself" attitudes. The power is in numbers.

    If you(not you in particular GT guy, i mean everyong) think i'm way off and disagree PLEASE, PLEASE email scott@imba.com and jenn@imba.com and tell them why. Again, if the majority wants me out b/c i'm not representing them or i don't speak for them, then it just gives me more time to ride. Just remeber my opinions are not based on me sitting behind a computer looking at forums, they are based on years of listening watching, talking, meeting.

    GT guy, i do agree in the end this now seems pointless.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    32
    I only skimmed the above threads. I'll try to make the time to read through them tomorrow at work.

    Joe,

    I throught I'd let you know that I agree and support you 100%. I feel you are making the correct approach with the PGC. I also think you are doing a great job as an IMBA Rep.

    Thanks.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    linkup, thanks i do appreciate the words and i do appreciate "the other side of things" as well. The more objections i can flush out now and answer the better i will be in discussion our point of view.

    I'll be honest it was impossible trying to ride tonight, esp with granougue coming up and the back is acting up. Like others say....i put myself out there so i guess i deserve what's coming to me. What i thought would be a more "let's join together and show em" atmosphere seems to be more of a "no need for clubs or anything of the sort, just let me ride my trails near me and we''ll be fine" approach.

    I understand you can't be everything to everyone but I truly wonder if it's worth it. Well i've never quit anything so i guess we "PRESS ON"

    hope to see a bunch of you on saturday at granogue. I'll be racing for bikeline with the trek fuel ex 9.5. I'm probably one of their bigger riders so don't say anything mean and if you in the mood for road racing there are crits on saturday and sunday(across from the velodrome) if your interested. www.lehighwheelmen.org/racing

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    493
    gt, all great points and i like you were at many of thepublic meetings and it was grossly negligent of the PGC to post vernal pools etc and say that's the problem. I actually called the head of the PR funds and there was never even a threat of losing monies.
    You're right that IMBA doesn't represent all mtn bikers.


    OK, so the original premise for the ban turns out to be an outright lie then, correct?
    I think I've told you about my disappointment in IMBA's lack of action in '03, even after Tim B. personally assured me that they were on top of the situation.

    So that's where my reservations are born. Of the two parties at the table, one has lied and the other has totally dropped the ball in the past. So that makes me a little nervous about the process. At the same time, I hope that lessons were learned on both sides.

    The cycling community needs to unite, that's just my opinion. I've seen what dilluting a group can do! Anyone can call up the PGC and ask to be invited.

    I agree that it would be much better to present a united front. I just don't know how to accomplish that. I had hoped IMBA would have been the vehicle for that, but they have never been able to make their message work on a local/personal level (IMO).
    Anone can call PGC and ask to be invited only if they know there's something to be invited to. That also doesn't mean you will be invited or listened to, unfortunately.
    They have manged to keep us divided in that respect.

    You can't just say "i want a pony" you have to present your case on why you want the pony and the dog.

    My point there was that you should be asking for 100% access and if you have to negotiate back to the plan you referred to, then OK, but not to go in starting with a limiting plan.

    ... you don't have to join a club and you can ride by yourself, but the day WILL come when access becomes an option and you alone can't do it...

    My problem with the club "adopting a trail" thing, is that I think it creates divisions of its own. Plus it fosters the sense of ownership/entitlement that the hunters have towards the SGLs now, which is part of the problem. If Club XYZ "adopts American Standard and puts in a bunch or work, etc, they're likely to feel it's "their" trail, and that's where conflicts arise.

    do you think the equestrians have "just buy liscences and ride by yourself" attitudes. The power is in numbers.

    I don't know what their attitude is, or who represents them (if they have a group that does). I would hope that IMBA or someone does know. I don't know if it is wise to align with them or not. What about ATV'ers, snowmobilers, 4x4's? Any one of those groups (who are pretty well organized) could help or hurt depending on how they are perceived by PGC. I certainly don't have a feel for that political minefield.

    GT guy, i do agree in the end this now seems pointless.

    Not sure if you're referring to this discussion or to your efforts in Harrisburg, but I will disagree regardless. I think the discussion is healthy. As I said, I am grateful that somebody (you) is out there doing something to improve the situation. I appreciate the effort and commitment it takes to do it, and that not everyone is in a position to do so. So thanks, and don't quit. My only advice/suggestion to you is to step back a bit, don't let it become personal, and be as inclusive as possible. Keep us in the loop and good luck.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LarryFahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,812
    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic300
    Then said club and members pay sgl commission to ride these trails at anytime other then Hunting season?
    Did I miss something? Was paying mentioned or not? Will we have to pay?

  43. #43
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    GT_Guy

    You are my HERO!

    Joe doesn't get it! He's all wrapped up on the IMBA lala. I know he is a good guy but he comes across as a have it his way or the IMBA Highway. Joe don't take it as bashing you I'M NOT DUDE! I just said your a good guy!

    As you can see on this forum we both have thrown out ideas of all kinds. Most guys I ride with don't know or care who IMBA is. They ride b/c they like to do that. You have to remember I ride motorcycles and quads as well as singlespeeds and trials and crosscountry MTB. I hear people opinions about everything. Most guys who ride motorcycles don't care about Blue Ribbon Coalition either. I'm glad you do what you do but mostly everyone doesn't see what Joe sees. Gt Guy hit it on the head! GT sees it the way it is. I'm not here to fight with anyone. Too much riding to do! Joe say hi to Jay for me ask him if he still wants to ride my Gas Gas. He is a great guy( ICON ) and has many many stories to tell.

    Your right Bill Grove.

    I gotta stop hitting my head on that low branch!

    Joe com'on up and ride, but the good old boys will be at the golf course. We just vote them in they don't ride they count Money! Maybe IMBA has a use for all the washing machines and tires we seem to have lying around!

    LOL
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    72

    groups and game lands

    I generally feel that non-constructive "rants" on both sides should be left for personal web pages. Leave this forum for people interested in the facts not misinformed information and attacks on people. Game lands are a crucial part of riding in Pennsylvania and I applaud anyone willing to get them legally reopened to us. Few places not on gamelands offer riding sans ATV's. I have met very few riders on ATV's that ride them responsibly, and have never seen any repair any trail they have damaged. Most private land owners will not open up their land to groups of bikers because we are often linked to the irresponsible behavior of our motored 2 or 4 wheeled friends. Also most private land owners are concerned with liability issues. I also believe that the way politics are, mountain biker groups are benificial. A group, can demonstrate motivation, commitment, and in some cases funds which enact change. Very few of us can do this on our own. Every group has its drawbacks and strengths and this forum is not the place to attack each others weekness but play off everyones strengths so all can have a better ride.

  45. #45
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Correct:

    I never personally attacked Joe or anyone else. This is a good resource to see how we all feel. Some people would like to moderate the board to just the way they see it. Joe and I have spilled all we have to spill. As you can see we have each invited the other to ride together. I'm sure he goes out at night while riding trys to find ways to answer my questions as well as being mad about the current situation. I do! You are correct in the fact if we all work together we can go foward.

    Don't think that dissing the motorcycle or quad group will get you far. Remember they pay for stuff even if it's not the stuff we want. The AMA, American Motorcycle Association is very big and funded by giants. Honda, Harley to name a few. Notice Snowmobilers get ALL the trails. MONEY baby! Snowmobilers do mantain trails

    Yes the quads are out of control. I try to tell all not to ride the SGL. Deaf ears! Game Commission is broke and they don't have the resources to patrol! Even if they did it's a huge undertaking just to patrol.

    If the group thing is the way the Game commission wants to go with Mt Bikers having use of trails through work and mantaince. My idea is we/club forms a contract for the trail and agreed work we do. They can draw the rules! If we some how fail to comply with the mantaince or some other failure we/club can be cut out! But, they agree to a time alotment we are to have as far as our use of the trail as a club. This way when the ranger or land manager changes position the NEW guy can't boot us and all our hard work. We in the Motorcycle world have clubs/track owner who do the work or promote the race. We have to pay for a sanction fee to the AMA and follow their rules.

    I think for the MTB overall group, meaning all mt bikers together have to all be on the same page as far as the plan.(Insert here Joe jumping up and down screaming JOIN IMBA)

    We/motorcyclers all have to have an AMA membership to race or ride at an AMA sanctioned event.there are event one can attend but the rules are different and you must follow those rules, which differ greatly from one outlaw group to another. AMA races/rides all follow the same set of rules everywhere. Don't think I'm hooked on the Motorcycle thing or the race thing I'm just pointing out what I follow or know. Not in any way pushing Motorcycles or quad stuff on anyone.

    There are many properties I ride where I am the Patrol. Only myself and the landowner know this. In return I get to ride his land. I know this is small personal thing but we all can do this. I have accessed a great area of land to ride! This is the way the farmers did it and still do! Snowmobilers know what I'm talking about.


    If it's Diamonds you seek. Better be friends with the Diamond miner!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    538
    ouch!

    joe, sorry i wasn't around for this one, looks like you got treated a bit rough. never fear tho, you've got the biggest ******* in the state on your side

    i'm betting mtbr edits the above. grr.

    anyway, let's get down to it:

    first off, i'd like to address the "attitude" herein. it does exist, and it's ********. threadcrapping is lame, and so are the people doing it.

    secondly come the attacks on Joe. that's even more ********. you can say you're not doing it, but your posts name you liar(s).

    third are the arguments themselves. they are stated more as whining and demands then anything that will help reach a solution. that's the wrong approach to have if you want anything.

    now, on to the discussion on the topic:

    i grew up in this state and game lands are game lands, they are for hunting. i hunted through my youth and there is little that comes closer to the embodiment of pennsylvania's heritage than hunting. mt biking can go **** itself if it thinks it has a place in pennsylvania's heritage. as mt bikers, we had better not think to challenge hunters for their lands. a more appropriate mindset would be to share it when they are not using it. and be damn thankful for it.

    i no longer actively hunt, but i do ride mt bikes, and i've been riding them in this state for a decade or so. passionately and seriously riding them, not tooling around on fireroads. that type of riding has never been in jeopardy, and as such isn't really considered mt biking for the purposes of this discussion. no one is arguing for more fireroad. in my years mt biking, i've seen the amount of singletrack available to me expand significantly. many times i've seen it happen at the end of my own pulaski or fire rake. i've spent hours laboring alongside scott and aaryn, and enjoyed the results. i've spent hours laboring alongside chris and jill and enjoyed the results. i've spent hours laboring alongside rich and jen and enjoyed the results. if you're seeing a trend here at least your not blind. i've spent hours laboring alongside Joe and enjoyed the results. i've spent hours laboring alongside frank and enjoyed the results. (i stopped at the state reps, but i could go on naming statewide organizations and the members thereof if i hade the time to do so) the same trend follows top to bottom. THE IMBA METHOD WORKS. so this is what i have to say to opponents: either find a way that works as well or better, or shut the **** up. you are not helping anything without becoming a part of it. you can't please all the people all the time, and gods know that is just as prevalent in our endeavors. joe admits people disagree with him, and there are a lot of times i've disagreed with frank and others throughout this state. but that will never change anything unless you've got something to offer for your disagreement.

    i've got next sunday off, and i know that i can go all across this state of ours and ride things i couldn't 5 years ago. and i know that those things are there to ride because of the efforts of people like joe. where can i go and ride something because of the efforts of those calling him down?

    sorry again joe. saw some good folk down your way last month should have thought to let you know. get yourself to the bash this year and i'll give you enough hugs to make up for these pricks and their attitude. or better yet, come to the NMBA ride the 21st or the RCST ride the 28th.

    don

  47. #47
    Prez NMBA
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    719
    Don has a point (and I find myself shaking my head that I agree with him), its not that the rules really changed a few years ago, its just that they were clarified and threatend to be enforced. mountain bikers were never truely legal on any SGL depending on the interpretations of the ambiuous "rules." The PGC certainly doesnt have to do any of what they are doing with regards to these meetings and proposals and I think we should play nice and see what happens, it certainly cant get any worse and has the potential of getting much better. I do have to say I am curious about their agenda. Keep up the great work Joe, and I look forward to work with the local pgc guys up here in SG176

  48. #48
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Don:

    Thread crapping, and I'm lame sounds like your an Expert at boasting about yourself and how much work you do. I do agree with the work being done and you deserve lots of credit for that but, to bash who you don't know! I bow the King! You are the MAN on the FORUM dude. To use Joe's own words "You dont even know me dude!" So DON tell us "LIARS" how YOU are going to fix MERLI? Would you happen to be an IMBA member yourself? Nice of you to talk so well of us here on the board. Do you represent IMBA? So we are Pricks also? NICE DON!
    You are right about "ONE" thing SGL is for "Hunters" Do you go in the woods during hunting season with THAT attitude? Nice to meet you DON! By the way I don't hide behind a screen name. All my info is there for you to use. How about you, have any info you wanna share with all of us now that you called us all names? Let's be on the same page DON!

    Here I am!
    Proformance Cycle
    proformance58@cs.com

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    430
    Ok my two cents for what it is worth. First thanks to anyone who has ever built a trail working on trails, working to get better riding for anyone, and for All of those who are willing to share their space for riding (maybe it can get others to help out to). Thanks to all of you. I have gotten hurt riding to trails and have not done any riding since march and it is killing me.

    But can it all be that we here in Pennsy, WE all are really frustrated with all the powers that be. I mean with the STATE which includes SGC, PPL, Forest Service, Park serviceand whoever else. You know I think everyone would agree that as bikers we see a green state in a way and wish there was easier access to trails. Do I mean just jump on your bike and ride whereever and whenever NO. And Yes, whoever you are if you are being yelled at or made of fool (right or wrong) because you have an opinion. You do have a right to call out or answer back that person. There it probably was said before somewhere on this thread but had to say it too.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    430
    OOP correction, yes thanks to all of your hard efforts. Dont misread my first paragraph, meant to say I am hurt and not able to ride. It was nothing you did that caused me to get hurt. Sorry if you read it wrong ( I do not want to get the flaming replys on that sentence).
    laughing smiling.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •