Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 75
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Could we get State Gamel Land Singletrack back??? Yes!

    Well, after a beautiful night ride i had chance to absorb what happened today. i took the day off to meet with a representative of the PGC. With persistentence and patience and the help of a long time advocate friend i had a chance to have a sit down up in state college withthe head of recreareation for the PGC and here is quick summary.

    -there is a potential plan in place for a group to apply for singletrack or a trail to be approved. There is a small window for us as mountain bikers to work side by side with other users to bring back the singletrack we know and love. It was also a chance to have the PGC to see what IMBA and PA mtn bikers are all about. We will have a follow up meeting with the other users to help develop a process where it is a true win/win for both groups.

    Now before all the na-sayers start typing.....relax and be patient. I am approaching this with cautious enthusiasm. I am however confident that something can be worked out where hunters won't even notice other users are there and we won't have any impact on the mission of the PGC. I will inform everyone as i get information.


    So if you don't belong to a club i would say do so. If there is no club i would say create one. Why? because it will be a very specific agreement between the PGC and that group to maintain the trail. If not....bye bye trail. Which i completely agree with. This is a true opportunity to organize and work closey with other users which can only help out sport. Now people will see the true side of our sport and what it can bring to the table. From that will open up opportunities that may have never been there.


    thanks for listening
    Joe

  2. #2
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Hack:

    Hunters, Fishermen, Birdwatchers, Equestrians and, others who use SGL don't have to form groups or work on the trails do they?

    HUM?
    [SIZE=3] Proformance Cycle[/SIZE]
    proformance58@cs.com

  3. #3
    Freshly Fujified
    Reputation: Call_me_Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,200

    Great news

    Glad to hear headway is being made.

    Bob
    'If Wal-Mart sold parachutes, who would jump?' Frank Havnoonian (quoting his father) Drexel Hill Cyclery

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Plains Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    334
    I would think Lee that those "other " groups, having more of an impact on the State game lands as far as usage, need not to have formed groups since they have a bigger voice right now with the PGC.
    By having "Groups" of Mt bikers start forming and start showing up on work parties or meeting may leave a lasting impression on the powers that be and things may change in the Mt. bikers direction.
    I wish Plains Bike could be more involved in all of this but my schedule and interests in road riding this time of the year just does not permit it, but I do applaud the efforts of both you and Hackamo here.

    Keep up the good work!

    Kevin at Plains Bike

  5. #5
    Dirt Whore
    Reputation: Pedro K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Hack:

    Hunters, Fishermen, Birdwatchers, Equestrians and, others who use SGL don't have to form groups or work on the trails do they?

    HUM?
    this may be an oportunity for us to finally get rid of those bird watching a-holes. they totatly freak me out.


    Hakamo, good work.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    88
    Hey Hackamo!
    Yeh! Those other groups don't have to form groups!!

    Why do you EVEN BOTHER trying??
    Why don't you just spend all your free time on message boards with your thumb up your azz - - dragging everybody else (who actuallly try) DOWN!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    Hum?

    maybe i mis-typed. Regardless of the type of user and/or the influence with the PGC it would be the right thing to do it as a group b/c who benefits if one person just does it. When we build trails it's kind of a lost opportunity if one person works on it b/c you lose the chance to "empower" many more through trail education etc. Plus from an agency standpoint why would you enter into an agreement with just one person. That's a disaster waiting to happen. What is that one person's vision, training, longevity etc?

    I'm sure in some of the urban SGL's a "group" could be 10 people from the equestrian club, 15 from the hiking club and 15 from the montain bike club.

    Lee, no offense but your words aren't offensive, but somewhat "deflating" to me because it's so early in the game and your already "popping the baloons" so if you have any questions i'd be more than happy to answer or find an answer for you. I understand that you may be somewhat pessimistic about the situation and i don't assume to know why, but i also understand it's healthy to have all points of view. Having all those points of view make me stronger in going to the table and being able to be more knowledgeable and better able to make my points.

    enough said......like a may or may have not said; we are in the prelimary stages and the next step is to meet with the other user groups to possibly form a group of individuals who would help the PGC in the actual trail approval process.

    So if you wonder what is imba doing........we'll we're trying to make more opportunities across the whole state, not just in someone's personal trail system.

    i'm sure you had a great ride today in JT. Hopefully next year you can do it again and have an additional SGL singletrack ride!!!!!!!!! there is virtually no reason why it couldn't happen and i'm gonna do my best to work with Lath to make it happen.

  8. #8
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Hackamo:

    Don't get me wrong! I know you are concerned about trails everywhere. We had a great trail ride yesterday at Jim Thorpe! I don't think we used any SGL. Do the powers that be see anything our way as far as being a Mt Biker? There is another approach I would look at. The sporting good shops who sell and, promote fishing, hunting, trapping, and other ideals. If we as Mt bikers do any other sports as I do. I always shop at the local sporting goods store as well as the one near the fishing hole or hunting spot. I always mention I am a Mt Biker to the owner. Usually he tells me of trails or riding areas near his store. This way I am promoting his sales as well as my interest in riding! They have to do business to stay in business.

    Just "Shooting" out an idea!
    [SIZE=3] Proformance Cycle[/SIZE]
    proformance58@cs.com

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LititzDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    529

    Good Job

    Joe, I hope none of this brings you down. Hopefully this will make some of what you are doing seem like we are getting somewhere.

    Camp Mack boy scout camp in Northern Lancaster county. 850 acres
    2005-
    Permit to ride $50 selective tree harvest (it is a tree farm by the way) destroyed three great trails. Boy scouts had a promise(from a non-IMBA/Club rep) that IMBA would come fix the trails. Nothing happened. Promise broken.
    I contacted Joe and got involved with SAMBA. Spent time with Brian and Andrea on building trails. Proposed SAMBA adopt the camp, and work with the land manager to make positive impact.

    2006- Permit was negotiated to $25. We just finished our first work day and 25 out of 37 permit holders donated over 100 hours to closing unsustainable trails and building two new sections that are sustainable. The feedback was overwhelming, from the land managers to the permit holders on the great trails we created. We will continue to support the BSA and work to improve the trail system at Mack and hopefully with your work, maybe we will have an opportunity to include SGL 156.

    Thanks Joe

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    defintely not down at all. Actually i'm pretty positive about the opportunites it could create. The big factor is how organized people get to work with their local land manager. The PGC isn't gonna be "hey we're sorry, here's your singletrack, just go ride it."

    i hope this will bring place back like jim thorpe, lambs gap, gretna etc.

    great job with camp mack. Solid relationship, solid work, solid results.

  11. #11
    ganginwood
    Reputation: ganginwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    481
    lee,
    of course the hunters don't have to form a group. they spend millions a year on licenses, donations, etc.... which goes towards maintaing roads, feeding wildlife, paying salaries, and keeping up the forests which we all want to be a part of. how has the mountain biking community contributed to these causes?
    i myself purchase a hunting license each year just so i can claim to be part of this contribution.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jim Thorpe Trails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    184

    Good job! Good job, we're ready to take on Broad Mt. any time.

    Joe, it's sounds very positive! We now have over 60 member in the JTTC and have started to build some very positive relationships with local Jim Thorpe businesses. We will be having an official Jim Thorpe Mountain Bike Adventure “thank you” picnic/ride and JTTC meeting soon. Would you be interested in coming and letting us know how we might be able to move forward? Liz has also been asked to address the JT Chamber of Commerce soon so that might be another good opportunity to move this issue forward. Drop me an email and let’s talk. Thanks, Lath
    Jim Thorpe Trail Coalition
    http://jttrails.wordpress.com/

  13. #13
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Quote Originally Posted by ganginwood
    lee,
    of course the hunters don't have to form a group. they spend millions a year on licenses, donations, etc.... which goes towards maintaing roads, feeding wildlife, paying salaries, and keeping up the forests which we all want to be a part of. how has the mountain biking community contributed to these causes?
    I myself purchase a hunting license each year just so i can claim to be part of this contribution.
    Agreed:

    We pay TAXES! That's good enough reason for our use! Hunters do not OWN gamelands! As your statement reads.
    Why are Hikers, birdwatchers, fisherman, and others allowed in and, they dont work? I just don't understand why Mt bikers have to foot the bill. Don't get me wrong I would be there to help build any trails. But we are not seeing the big picture! Why do we beg for use of SGL? There are lots of places to ride!

    Look at this point of view: Wouldn't it be fuuny if all private land owners who grant access to hunters asked for a fee and for the hunters to build trails and clean their proprerties then Mt biker could just go there and ride with out doing any work! Hunters would cry and cry and cry!
    One more thing Hunting licenses don't pave roads The State Does! The Monies form hunters goes into the state kitty the state decides where it will be used! Just like ATV monies are not garranteed to build ATV trails

    I buy a fishing license, I get to fish anywhere as long as it is not private land. I don't stock the fish, empty the garbage cans, build access or do anything else. Do we need a state mt biking License? Pay for a year then we can ride, No work! Just some more BS to ponder!

    Been around a while not going anywhere fast! I like it that way!
    [SIZE=3] Proformance Cycle[/SIZE]
    proformance58@cs.com

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    430
    Hackamo is this what you are saying. A mtb bike club can be formed and said bike club can pick out one or two or more sgl and tell sgl commission they would like to maintain trails on these lands? Then said club and members pay sgl commission to ride these trails at anytime other then Hunting season? If so not to bad but did they not try this approach before, I forget?

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    so far there is no permit or "Stamp" system proposed. The word club can be any user group. Contrary to what is being said on this thread it's not specific to mtn biking. To my knowledge this hasn't been done before. I know there are very sparse situations of singletrack approved but most of this process will be up the local land manager but there will be a checklist in place that will hadnle all of the requirements.

    Example: American Standard
    -the JTTC approaches land manager with an interest in opening it back up. JTTC willdownload application and fullfill all the requirements. The land manager will look it over and application will be forwarded to "trail consultants" which will be made up of mtn bikers, hikers, equestrians etc. They will provide imput on their expertise i.e. trail construction, slope etc. Then land manager will check off to see wildlife and habitat impact and the JTTC will enter into an MOU that would lay out responsibilities.

    The feedback would entail possible trail re-routes, trail avoidance areas etc. One that is fullfilled i assume long story short the trail will now be opened up.

    That is a very rough scenario of what could ocurr. What i am cautiously watching is what kinds of requirements will be needed. Will they be too much to make it even happen? or simple re-routes etc. There are plenty of singletrack that we're not talking about building new trails but legalizing existing ones.

    another great example is in our area where were opening up 9 miles of trail at trexler game preserve but could extend it a lot more with the adjoinging game lands of which are already used by hikers etc.

    does that answer the question?

    thanks, Joe

  16. #16
    Hoopy Frood
    Reputation: khill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    255
    Hackamo (or anyone else):

    Can you point me to an online resource where the PGC outlines their objections to mountain biking on state game lands? I realize it's been an established stance for a few years but I've yet to see a decisive list of their issues with mountain bikes.

    It's very difficult to successfully argue against something if the opposition has never had to clearly enumerate their side of the argument. If all we're confronted with is vague accusations and no facts, it's impossible to present a compelling case.

    Whenever these advocacy threads come up, I always get the feeling that many people are of the "Please, can we share your land?" mindset. While that's ok, I think a more effective approach might be, "It's a bike, not a sherman tank. What do you think it's going to do to your land?". I'm not saying we shouldn't do trailwork or offer our support but we should ask why we're not being treated as equal users of the land with equally valid reasons for access as hikers, equestrians, and other non-hunters.

    I get the feeling that mountain bikers are rarely confronted with a clear and concise list of the reasons why the can't access certain areas and this builds resentment in our community. Maybe it's because the non-biking public thinks cycling is an activity for children so they treat us like children.
    Last edited by khill; 05-08-2006 at 05:31 PM.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

  17. #17
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    KHill
    Here you are right from the SGL page! this is where you can ride your MTB. Also read my post: Trails for all in Pa link ~~~~~ on this PA forum

    Pa SGL designated Routes
    To all:

    Just some more info on places to ride even in SGL! These are designated routes set by SGL officials!

    http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/browse.asp?a=480&bc=0&c=69913&pgcNav=|

    DESIGNATED ROUTES for Horses and Bicycles
    For each region, there is a list of designated routes. These route designations, which total more than 1,000 miles, are in compliance with State Game Lands use regulations that went into effect on February 1, 2003. Under the new regulations, anyone who rides a non-motorized vehicle, conveyance or animal on State Game Lands must do so only on designated routes. Such riding activities will not be permitted, except on Sundays or on roads open to public travel, from the last Saturday in September to the third Saturday in January, and after 1 p.m. from the second Saturday in April to the last Saturday in May. This does not apply to anyone lawfully engaged in hunting, trapping or fishing on State Game Lands.
    [SIZE=3] Proformance Cycle[/SIZE]
    proformance58@cs.com

  18. #18
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829

    Hackamo Here's your chance

    Joe:

    We all know why, what, and where, we CAN"T ride! Your posts are very Vague on how we all go about doing this thing we all want! Tell us in order how you and/or your IMBA crew would form a plan of attack! We are all listening!
    [SIZE=3] Proformance Cycle[/SIZE]
    proformance58@cs.com

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwnhlldav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,026
    I didn't really have time to read through this whole thread, but a comprimise I have always (since they got closed) thought would be acceptable would beto close the trails to MTB and other users during hunting season except sundays.

  20. #20
    Hoopy Frood
    Reputation: khill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    255

    Thanks for the links but you missed my point

    I know that there are policies regarding where and when we can ride on SGL.

    What I'm looking for is a clearly defined set of arguments by the PGC (or any state-sponsered group) which outlines why our access to the SGLs is limited to those trails and times.

    It would be one thing if mountain bikers never had access to those lands. However, that access did exist at one time (as I understand it) and was then taken away by the PGC. I want to understand the rationale behind that decision so we can refute their arguments on a point-by-point basis. Or, if they can't provide the reasons behind the exclusion of cyclists, we can understand that we're dealing with an irrational bias. In either event, I think this line of questioning will clarify our (and equestrians') chances of achieving equal access with other users like hikers and birdwatchers (who aren't mentioned in the restrictions on the links you provided).
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    430
    This is part i do not get. Why does land manager have to get with other groups to allow bikers to use land? I would think he would either get with sgc to get ok for this plan. You would know more than me but I guess if a bird watcher does not want bikers on the land how much input of that thinking goes into land mgr decision. Also if it is alot, are you not wasting your time? since these fanatical people (birders) could just keep telling him not to do give ok for bikers? Again not (i) not being clear on the process would think it is a crazy snafu on the sgc part if this really is decision process? Are the landmgrs the state forest managers too? Do you know if forest dept and sgc one and the same? Only asking?

  22. #22
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    I would guess it to be Mt bikes and Horses will disturb the natural propagation of animals living in SGL. Hikers and Humans birdwatching are not as much of a threat as a Big animal like a horse or a metal Mt bike.Less Terrian damage? You can see I posted to Hackamo about defining a Clear plan for all of us to assume!

    It truly is amazing guys who hunt will ride in SGL with their quads to scout deer and other animals. But they are banning the Mt Bikers! Don't get me wrong quads are great! Just ironic how some use them!

    Do you fish? Ever read the book they give you at the time of license purchase. It is really overkill as far as rules go. It seems to me the more confused the public is the easier it is to fine them. There are way too many rules and they know no one can follow them all.
    [SIZE=3] Proformance Cycle[/SIZE]
    proformance58@cs.com

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hackamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    316
    Just back back from ride so i need to sleep so i will be brief.

    as far as the plan goes; the PGC is going to approve/dissapprove this internal process in july. Technically we are already implementing "the plan." The downside of the PGC is it approve these processes w/o public input. In june like i said before we are meeting with the PGC and other user groups to discuss how this will be all implemented. The reason for having people like mtn bikers and other users review these application is now it becomes a partnership and you have input on both sides. It's a good move for the PGC to involve other users for public relations. They are in dire need of funding and that works in our favor b/c now they have involved other users. That's exactly what we told them years ago by excluding other users they are going to lose and with deer herds declining hunters etc this is where we step in.

    Lee, i'm glad your listening but it really gets tiresome with your attitude of "so what are you guys gonna do, and imba blows" attitude. I don't know what to tell you anymore. I will never meet your standards and so be it. I only have time to do things the best way i know how. I have many friends inthe advocacy realm whom i hope respect the way i've done things and i beleive that's what has allowed me to get to the table at some of these discussions. Trust me, i don't beg for stuff like trails and your approval. I act professional, hold people accountable and have personal standards i set for myself. As you can see i am in it for the long haul not only with advocacy but the sport itself. I also respect your long history with biking like but in the trials days, but i need to move forward and honestly all your posts do is slow things down.

    as far as the "mtn bikers cause impact" you won't really find that anywhere. There was always a "don't ask don't tell" attitude with the officers and users. Well as populations grow so does intereaction and then came the PGC cutting down on access. They do have designated trails but as i told the guy on friday i appreciate the trails but you essentially allowed us to "hunt in a parking lot". I don't think that impact is the problem. It probably is funding and pressure from the hunters not about mtn bikes but other users in general.

    One thing i notice is the concept of private/public use of these lands. The SGL's are "special use" with a specific purpose of wildlife protection and propogation. They are managed in a completely different mindset than say DCNR lands. DCNR are more recreation and count heavily on timber while PGC is fueled by hunting liscences etc. In a sense it does give them the right, but they are helping us out in a way......they are protecting land that will hopefully be protected for years to come from urban sprawl. They depend heavily on private land donations, other conservancy group land swap deals. It's just a different mindset than state parks. I like the SGL's in a way b/c they're more primitive and provide a truly different experience on the trails. The problem with their mindset is they don't understand trails and what it takes to do them the right way. So in life when people don't know about something they either disagree with something new or don't progress on things like singletrack.

    alright now i sleep.

    i hope i can answer your questions so if i have confused your or am vague continue to let me know and i will do my best.

    thanks,
    Joe

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    5
    is there a web site for JTTC? How do I join? New to the JT area and would like to help out?

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jim Thorpe Trails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    184

    email me to join JTTC

    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtworld13
    is there a web site for JTTC? How do I join? New to the JT area and would like to help out?
    Hi, welcome to the area and thanks for your interest in the JTTC. We do not have a website yet, we have a local offer to host one but I don't have the time to put a page together, any takers? Email your name, address, phone number, and email address to me at jttrails@hotmail.com. I'll send you a bunch of trail maps and put you on our email list for upcoming events. In the next couple weeks we will be hosting a picnic/ride and JTTC meeting to discuss upcoming media coverage and the game lands issue. We are also going to be starting weekly rides soon. Thanks for your support and welcome to some of the best mountain biking in the country. -Lath
    Jim Thorpe Trail Coalition
    http://jttrails.wordpress.com/

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •