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  1. #1
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    what is sierra club's stance on wilderness?

    sierra club sent me some memebership information trying to get me to send cash and plaster myself with their stickers. there was no mention in the information package about their position on wilderness designations. i'm not going to support any club that promotes expanding or adding wilderness areas until bikes are allowed in them. so do you have any idea what they think about wilderness?

    thanks,
    head mcm#500

  2. #2
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    Sierra Club Bad

    Yup they are all for wilderness designation....and all sorts of other really stupid stuff like banning fishing....I have a neighbor who is some kind of sierra club official. This guys views are off the chart and he has railed on me a couple of times about the evils of Mtn. Bikers in the wilderness….then he starts in about the evils of fishing. This guy has horses that he regularly rides into wilderness lands with other sierra club members (you may have seen what horses can do to the environment?)...but thats OK because "horses are native to North America and have been using these trails since before WE were here"...WTF????

    From what I understand their stated goals boil down to excluding the general public from recreating in the wilderness....because we are too stupid and can not be trusted with this natural resource (wilderness lands).

    But really....I don't have a strong opinion either way about the Sierra Club.....hehehehe
    What is a "healing vibe"???
    See our aid stations at the Tahoe Sierra 100 Red Star Ridge & Dusty Corners

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  3. #3
    Jm.
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    weren't horses introduced by the spanish 500 years ago?
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  4. #4
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    The 2-faced SC is asking MTB'ers to join their cause. What they are not saying is the Wilderness Bill they support will close the forrest to bikes. What they assume is a large number of voters will follow thier ( SC ) wishes and do no research of their own.

    Seirrra Club does not recognize bikes as legitimate users. The bike club within SC is run by a total hoser, whom is hated venomhently from inside, who has nothing but a political future in mind. An a$$ who couldn't get elected to sanitation supervisor if he tried. Yet he created an organization within an organization to furtur himself and do nothing to sway the SC or even help promote the truth about the plan they support. Now thats 2-faced.
    Yeah I gotta question. You got any excuses tonight Roy ? -Antonio Tarver

    There is room for it all, just ride what you like to on what you like to...that's freeriding. -rbn14



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    weren't horses introduced by the spanish 500 years ago?
    A quick google search revealed this:

    http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...1408.Zo.r.html

    So really you are right. The horses people enjoy today are not native. I would also like to make a point that heritage and tradition aren't necessarily good things (slavery?).
    Lotusfinger

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboulder
    but thats OK because "horses are native to North America and have been using these trails since before WE were here"...WTF????
    No thats not true. They did not coexist with "these trails"
    Lotusfinger

  7. #7
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    in my opinion, which i'm sure no one really cares about, the sierra club is evil and bad for the environment. they, and other extremists, have driven reasonable people out of 'environmentalism'. they are so anti-bike and anti-motor and anti-multi-use and anti-being-reasonable that people like me, who have always considered themselves environmentalists, must oppose these crazed anti-access elitist extremists at every turn.

    ironically, alot of these extremists live in big inefficient houses and drive volvos and other gas-guzzlers, and consume all manner of manufactured goods, and are generally much higher in impact on the planet than i am, even with my evil habits of mtn biking and motorcycling in addition to hiking, climbing and xc/backcountry skiing,

    in my opinion, ALL new wilderness is bad until bicycles are allowed in (or skis, horses, tents, campstoves and synthetic boot soles are banned).

    mw
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  8. #8
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    If all of the mountainbikers joined Sierra Club, we could change their policy on biking. Then we would have a truly powerful lobby.

  9. #9
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    Obviousley

    you missed the sarcasm and the..... WTF?

    I have no problem with horses and riders who are respectful of other trail users.....but you are correct they do not coexist well with Mtn Bikers and Hikers because they cr@p all over the trail and generally tear things up.

    It was my neighbor that stated "horses are native to North America so they should be allowed anywhere" not I.
    What is a "healing vibe"???
    See our aid stations at the Tahoe Sierra 100 Red Star Ridge & Dusty Corners

    www.goapc.org

  10. #10
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboulder

    It was my neighbor that stated "horses are native to North America so they should be allowed anywhere" not I.
    Yeah, what a tool. You can tell him that horses are native to MONGOLIA....heh
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  11. #11
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    The Sierra Club is.........

    The Sierra Club is a small group of people dedicated to keeping large groups of people from enjoying the wilderness.

    I have no use for them.

  12. #12
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    Not!

    We would just be helping them legitimize their agenda. The Sierra Club needs to be "called out" by all Mountain Bikers. The elected officials who support the Sierra Club need to be called out as well.....they are not hard to find....they are the ones with the "D" after their name. Sorry, but it's true...I am not railing against Dems here....it's just a fact....The sierra club uses these elected official to further their agenda....and they are rewarded by the sierra clubs nasty PR campaigns against the other side...The "R's"

    The Sierra Club needs to be taken down along with any and all elected officials that blindly follow along with their policies in exchange for political favors.
    What is a "healing vibe"???
    See our aid stations at the Tahoe Sierra 100 Red Star Ridge & Dusty Corners

    www.goapc.org

  13. #13
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    Obviously

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboulder
    you missed the sarcasm and the..... WTF?

    I have no problem with horses and riders who are respectful of other trail users.....but you are correct they do not coexist well with Mtn Bikers and Hikers because they cr@p all over the trail and generally tear things up.

    It was my neighbor that stated "horses are native to North America so they should be allowed anywhere" not I.
    your weak sarcasm was not missed. I never said YOU felt anyway or the other about horses. I was simply pointing out your neihbors error. Native horses never coexisted on "these trails" that we use today. Was it too simple of a stament?

    And speaking of WTF, I didn't that they do not coexist well with Mtn Bikers and Hikers. But I will so now: Horses and their bloated self righteous owners are the worst! Maybe I should take a crap on the hood of their pick up, leave it there and see how they like it.
    Lotusfinger

  14. #14
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    Nice...

    Well Put!
    What is a "healing vibe"???
    See our aid stations at the Tahoe Sierra 100 Red Star Ridge & Dusty Corners

    www.goapc.org

  15. #15
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    ever notice?

    has anyone ever noticed that people with the sierra club stickers on their car always have an early 80's honda or toyota spewing smoke out their rusted out muffler going down the freeway around 45 mph?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboulder
    but thats OK because "horses are native to North America and have been using these trails since before WE were here"
    That's right! And all the Anglo-Saxons, Asians, Africans, Latinos can forget about using it too because they are not native to this country.

  17. #17
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormShadow
    That's right! And all the Anglo-Saxons, Asians, Africans, Latinos can forget about using it too because they are not native to this country.
    word...
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  18. #18
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    Stay away from those losers

    Like others have said, they want to keep everyone but themselves out of the wilderness. They went on my enemies list when they campaigned against an initiative in Washington to ban commercial drift netting for salmon a few years ago. Since such bans are proven to help restore the wild fish runs it takes away from their "save the trees" message. And before anyone asks; no, I'm not against fishing. Fishing is one of my big hobbies.
    "Without the ability to make moral distinctions based on motive, consequences, the ethical constructs of various parties, everything is equal, and you end up with people like Woody Allen: a tiny speck of compacted narcissism, revolving around the dead sun in an empty universe." - James Lileks

  19. #19
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    My Mom...

    aunt, uncle, cousins are all horse owners and riders. None of them are Bloated? or self righteous......Thet are very respectful of other trail users...your weak generalizations make YOU seem pretty self righteous though.

    Last year...as a joke....I gave my aunt a small shovel and gunny sack for a christmass present....called it an equine pooper scooper......she took me seriousley and carries it with her....cleans up after her horse....she says it freaks all the other riders out.

    s
    What is a "healing vibe"???
    See our aid stations at the Tahoe Sierra 100 Red Star Ridge & Dusty Corners

    www.goapc.org

  20. #20
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    If you like to ride DO NOT support the Sierra Club!

    ...and do not support these companies known to donate cash to the SC either. That's right, REI and Performance Bike! and they sell Mountain Bikes.

    Book and Magazine Affiliates: AllBooks4less.com, Magazines.com, and TextbookX.com

    Department Store Affiliates: Wal×Mart.com

    Energy Conservation and Renewables Affiliates: Real Goods

    Gourmet Affiliates: AKA Gourmet, Cooking.com, David's Cookies, Harry and David, Hickory Farms, Phaelzer Brothers, and RealBeer.com

    Home & Garden Affiliates: Dutch Gardens, Florist.com, Gardeners Supply Company, Internet Florist, Jackson & Perkins, Mission Orchards, PetalXpress, and 1-800-Flowers

    Music Affiliates: Sony Music Direct

    Office and Technology Affiliates: Dell Computers, Buy.com, Fujitsu Computers, Handspring, Iomega, and OfficeMax

    Software Affiliates: McAfee and ZoneAlarm Pro

    Sports and Fitness Affiliates: Brigade Quartermasters, PerformanceBike.com, REI, Sierra Trading Post, and Undergear

    Travel Affiliates: Hotwire, Orbitz, and Trip Network

  21. #21
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    Thank You!

    for posting that list....it's printing and going on the fridge.
    What is a "healing vibe"???
    See our aid stations at the Tahoe Sierra 100 Red Star Ridge & Dusty Corners

    www.goapc.org

  22. #22
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    They are major catalysts behind the anti-suv movement. Just don't expect them to live by their own credo. They are well known for using all types of suvs; multipassenger vans, suburbans etc you name it.

    They are closet commies, who needs em?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by head
    sierra club sent me some memebership information trying to get me to send cash and plaster myself with their stickers. there was no mention in the information package about their position on wilderness designations. i'm not going to support any club that promotes expanding or adding wilderness areas until bikes are allowed in them. so do you have any idea what they think about wilderness?

    thanks,
    head mcm#500
    SEE BELOW: An excerpt; see the link if you want to see the whole page. Here's one thing that happens when you let mountain bikers into a trail system (from http://forum.sorba.org/viewtopic.php?t=613).

    This is one of the main reasons other users do not bikers coming onto their trails.

    If you follow SORBA's, and I'd wager other MTB org's web forums, this sort of thing happens ALL OF THE TIME. People, bikers - and you can take this personally if you want - I'd probably say the only ones who take it personally are the ones who are out there doing illicit "trail maintenance" - are responsible for digging up and rerouting trails.

    Hikers do not do this. While I am not a horse person, I have not seen horse people modifying trails or rerouting trails as bikers do.

    These are just facts and the biking community must deal with this in it wants the other users to consider allowing bikers on land that now does not permit biking.

    I can tell you one thing: I don't want this type of problem coming to the wilderness areas I use....


    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg

    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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    Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:39 pm Post subject: Trail Vandalism at Blankets Creek!

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    An unknown person has gone out and removed a large section of roots and rocks from the South Loop at Blankets Creek! The damage is going CW on the short rocky climb after the Switchbacks. An unkown person has removed all of the rocks and roots from the climb. This work was not done or authorized by SORBA Woodstock!!!!! Hopefully we will be able to get some pics of it tomorrow evening and post them. If you see anybody removing things like this from the trail, stop them immediately. The amount of damage done probobaly took at least an hour to complete as there are not even any holes of where the rocks were left. Now we will have to go spend time that we could be using to build new trails fixing the damage done here. This was done in the last 24 hours as it was all still there last night. If you ride out at Blankets Creek especially during the morning or time when there is nobody else out there keep an eye out for these people. This is probobaly not the first time they have done this and probobaly will not be the last. If you can't ride an obstacle, walk it!!!! Do not remove obstacles from the trail!!!

    Tucker

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    TimC
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    Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject:

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    Tuck -

    What a shame! I know you guys built the South Loop to be challenging, and it sucks that some gaper comes in and sanitizes it to his/her liking.
    Hope you catch 'em in the act!!
    _________________
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    TomC
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:58 am Post subject:

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    It could be anybody and not neccessarily a cyclist. The trails are in close proximity to neighborhoods and frequented by walkers / hikers. Regardless we all need to be wary.

    All in favor of signage, say aye.

    AYE!

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    murchman
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:12 am Post subject:

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    I have a feeling who ever did this is the same person/s that keep removing logs etc that prevent people from short cutting or cutting the tougher sections through the trail system at BC. I noticed most of the changes happen in AM or afternoon during the week when the trails have the least amount of traffic.
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    Duckman
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:21 am Post subject:

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    That section Tucker speaks of woulda required a ton of effort. I can't believe someone wouldn't have ridden by during such. I ride there alot during the early parts of the day during the week , and will surely get on their ass if given the chance.
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    Jet
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: I rode there yesterday am.

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    I rode both trails yesterday am ( from 8:30 to 10:30), both seemed fine, I don't remember seeing any thing missing and there was only 1 car in the parking lot other than mine (a Mom & her 6 year old boy). Where exactly is the section you're talking about? If it's back by the newly built houses I have seen several kids playing back there with out bikes. I doubt they would go to such trouble though. It's got to be a rider that obviously has got time on his hands and not much skill! Nothing out there was unrideable, maybe a little tuff for some folks but nothing extreme enough to take out.

    BTW I really like the new singletrack on the Dwelling loop. Flows well and a hoot to ride on my single speed! Thanks Charlie, and gang

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    jav1231
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:23 am Post subject: Argh!

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    Yeah, this sounds more like someone wanting to make the trail, or that section, easier for themselves.

    If you want to talk about vandalism, what about the broken glass that seems to show up regularly on the G'ville College trail.

    Both are wrong and both serve no purpose than to tax someone else's time to fix it.

    <<JAV>>
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    msh1
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:25 am Post subject:

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    this pisses me off greatly, and I do understand your anger,

    But posting a message on this board telling us not to vandalize the trail is like telling the pope not to be catholic.

    If we want people to stop f23king with the trail then we've got to get the message out to THEM!! The only way to do that is to put some kind of sign up at the trailhead (large enough for people to actually notice)
    and most likely, smaller signs out on the trail.

    Short of putting up video cameras or staging 24hour trail watch shifts, or fencing the whole damn place in, there's pretty much nothing we can do to stop trail vandalism.

    word.

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    Hardtail in Georgia
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:27 am Post subject:

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    The amount of damage done would have taken a single person with some sort of tool at least an hour to complete. We all need to be keeping an eye out for people doing things like that. Murchman is probobaly right, it probobaly the same person or group of people doing the damage every time.

    Tucker

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    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:31 am Post subject:

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    msh1- This is not directed at you, the people on this forum are probobaly not the ones doing this. The point of posting here is to get the word out in hopes that somebody on the forum might ride by and catch them. Then again you never know if the person responsible might be somebody just reading the forum that hasn't registered.

    Tucker

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    mountainman
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    Location: Acworth, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject:

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    I was out there yesterday with Jet and saw this. It definitely took a tool to remove the roots. The rock holes were filled back in with some dirt, but the roots were cut flush and still had their dirt outlining on the ground. Since it rained there Sunday night and MTBXC didn't see anything at 10:30 AM, it was done sometime between 10:30 AM to 7:30 PM yesterday.

    That really sux because it was a great technical climb/descent.
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    Duckman
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject:

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    Rode from 11am till 2pm there today ...and noticed a big pill of rocks off to the side of that rocky S turn just above that new logcrossing. Thats the spot, right? I was the 1st to lay tracks thru there today, as the trail was all washed away from last nights rain. Hard for me to see the immediate damage short of just knowing that section seems a whole lot easier now. Was looking for someone to yell at but to no avail tho.

    Duck
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    Hardtail in Georgia
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject:

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    Yep, that's the spot! All of those rocks and roots used to be in the trail. BTW, how was the mud out there today?

    Tucker

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    Duckman
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject:
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    Mud was fine on both the Dwelling and South loops. Even those switchbacks on the South were fine. Rained for like 10 seconds the whole day there. Didn't ride the Beginner deal, even tho I usually use it for a warmup and more distance. The right side gets the wettest by far. No bigass puddle there behind the $1 box, so thats a good sign.

    1 suv when I got there. About 10 when I left. Several hikers tho. Saw Renee and her dogs. Thats always fun. heheh.
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    Lisa
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:37 pm Post subject: Sigh...

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    I wish these people would just go to the damn Silver Comet where they belong! Really, the trails are not that hard to begin with.

    I'd like to revisit the idea of a sign that says "Those who remove rocks or roots or otherwise alter the trail will be shot on sight! No exceptions!"

    I went running this morning before work and didn't see any cars in the parking lot from 6:45-7:30, but they could have come in from elsewhere. My vote is to make the trail even harder in that section.

    Don't get mad, get even!

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    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject:

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    Last night the right side beginner loop was actually pretty dry. I think I'll go ride tonight if the weather holds out.

    Tucker(fingers crossed)

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    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
    Posts: 76
    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject:

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    I'm sure we'll put something in there, the downside is that part of the hill will probobaly have to be re-routed to keep the hill from washing away since there are no rocks there to hold it all together, people already slide throught that hill. Hopefully we can make something harder for that section. I hope in it all we can keep the log crossing that is right below it. It's getting to where we have to use the Dingo to bring in big enough rocks to keep people from moving them, this is getting rediculous.

    Tucker

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    K2K
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 17 Jun 2004
    Posts: 34
    Location: Alpharetta
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject:

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    I have to agree with Lisa. Bench cut the whole section but not into the sidehill bench cut the trail itself and leave a 2-3 foot drop off. See if the Vandal fills in the drop with the removed rocks...

    Why remove anything. Any less technical and the trail will be a Tsali clone... no gears no shox needed
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    K2K
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    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject:

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    PS if my old clydesdale ass can clean it how tech can it be... Climb Higher, Bomb Faster, Jump Further, crash harder.
    _________________
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    mtbkr678
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 17 Mar 2004
    Posts: 35

    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: WTF?

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    This has gone far enough you are actually making physical threats of bodily harm on a public message board? I used to come here for laugh but you guys are starting to scare me now.

    While I do not agree with unauthorized trail work make threats in this mannor goes beyond the land stewartship agreements provided by SORBA.

    Maybe we should get the Sherif's dept involved so that no one gets injured. I will be forwarding these threats on to the local authorities and the corps.

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    Lisa
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 09 Jan 2004
    Posts: 31
    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:14 pm Post subject:

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    mtbkr678-
    I think you should get a sense of humor. Or do you know who is doing this and are covering for them?

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    TomC
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    Joined: 26 Jan 2004
    Posts: 177
    Location: Roswell, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject:

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    Awright everyone...calm down...take a deep breath...let's not read into anyting too seriously.

    I was serious earlier about signage. If I have to I'll make it myself, go out, dig a post hole and set that sucker up:

    ATTENTION! DO NOT REMOVE ROCKS or ROOTS FROM THE TRAIL!
    These trails have been designed for the purpose of...etc. etc. etc.

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    mtbkr678
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 17 Mar 2004
    Posts: 35

    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: not funny

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    Lisa when does responding to threats equate knowledge of who made changes to the trail? And if you think getting shot is funny maybe you should try it sometime.

    I think the threats made on this board are pointless and crude and could end up causeing more problems than they fix. If a violent incident occurs at BC over the trail it will likley be shut down for everyone. Sorba does not own the land and cannot legally employ such techniques for enforcement.

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    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
    Posts: 76
    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:06 pm Post subject:

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    I think we need to find out exactly what we can do if we catch the little punk and follow through with it. If we can prosecute them for vandalism then so be it. The Corp. of Engineers would prob. have to file the charges since it is their land though. As for mtbkr678, I suspect you would be a lot more angry if you had been one of the few volunteers that built that section in the first place and will now have to go build it again instead of riding or building new trail. I for one would love to find out who's doing this. I think we should go out there and watch them fix all of the damage they've done all by themselves. I think about 2:30 in the afternoon on a nice hot day this August would be a good time. We could just sit there and drink nice cold water in the shade while they work.

    Tucker

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    msh1
    Training Wheel Tyke
    Joined: 01 Apr 2004
    Posts: 13
    Location: Atlanta, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It just came to me... has anyone considered that the person removing the obstacles and rocks may actually think "he" is helping? After all, assuming this person(s) are rookies or soccer mom's they may think that all those nasty rocks are in the way and could hurt someone.

    It's a possibility.

    For example, we had a technical multi-use trail at our college in NY and the local eco group went to do "trail maintenance" and removed every single log and rock in the trail.

    What exactly will it take for us to put up signs on the trail? our own money? Donations? SORBA??

    word

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    Duckman
    Stump Jumper


    Joined: 11 Mar 2004
    Posts: 111
    Location: Kennesaw
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I kinda assumed that was the fact already. Many newish riders don't stop to think "why" a section is the way it is, and think they are doing something "good" for the trail when they sanitize a section like this. Misplaced as it is, mind you. With such a huge cross section of ridership that BC experiences, its just gonna happen. Just like all the skip marks I see there...constantly. Many actually think its cool to do, and perfectly acceptable technique. Scary, eh?
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    mtbkr678
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 17 Mar 2004
    Posts: 35

    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: Could be

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yeah I can see how that could happen especially in the sections where the rocks are in the trail and not on the sides where it looks like someone pilled stuff in the trail on purpose.

    Last week in the section before the red dirt climb it looked like someone intentinally laid a dead pine in the trail in 2 places. You could see where the tree broke and was smashed by something. I moved them because they were too short to be made into crossing. I just hope I don't get shot next time. I always pull briars up to that look like they were placed over the trail on purpose too but I don't know if they qualify as "sticks".

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    SFPRSR
    Training Wheel Tyke
    Joined: 09 Dec 2003
    Posts: 17
    Location: Cumming, Ga
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I agree that this has gone too far! Come on guys it is just a trail. If Sorba want to persue this they need to contact the Corps and see if Sorba can intercede on behalf of the Corps.
    I used to build bmx tracks when I was a young lad in the country side. Those were the good 'ol days. They would get modified by motorcycles and sometimes cars, yes I said cars. We would just rebuild it better than before. I hope that no one does anything to anyone even if you see them in the act. It will take restraint but it will ruin it for everyone as the Corps could close the trails.
    I think that Jeff(Duckman) and msh1 have a point. Alot of different people visit these trails everyday. You are going to have some people that think that they are helping?!

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    Jet
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 22 Feb 2004
    Posts: 39

    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:33 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All right now, everyone stop flaming each other. That is not the point of this post. Nobody is or should be accusing anyone. It's bad forum etiquette.

    WE need to work TOGETHER find out who did this. I personally would like to see if it would be possible to press charges. This would probably be more trouble than it's worth though. My second suggestion is banishment from the trail. This should snowball to other trails by word of mouth. I think we can see how this would affect the party responsible.

    My thoughts on the person or persons that did this are- Somebody that rides the trail regularly. Someone that has had trouble cleaning this climb. Someone that knows a little about maintenance. Someone that definitely wanted to make this section easier. The way the roots were taken out shows this. I took some pics this evening, but they didn't turn out real well cuz it was well after 8. Not enough light. This could not have been done by a newbie unless they were/are a hiker that does trail maintenance. They do similar work on hiking trails.

    If the person thought they were helping, why take out roots and rocks on the advanced trail? This trail is designed to increase your riding skills. If you make a climb/descent easier, isn't that kind of self defeating?

    We will rebuild it. We have the technology. Nahanahnhaanah. And it will be tougher. I am also going to start transplanting stuff into the shortcuts. If anyone wants to help that's fine with me. I'm running out of deadfall.

    The big red climb? Is that the switchbacks? (we really need names for all these sections) There were two trees that fell about 15-20 ft from each other. One was made into a crossing the other was cut out, probably by Charlie. It had been suggested that we put a bridge across them both. There were also some trees that fell in the really tight and twisty section in the pines. I removed most of these. The only one I couldn't move I made into a rough crossing. The first rider over it clean was a woman. Quite impressive.

    Here's a question that should prove some of my point.

    At the 40-footer, (the first rock drop) where is the correct line if you DO NOT drop the ledge? I have a pic that I am going to forward to Tucker and I will have him post it tomorrow.
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    msh1
    Training Wheel Tyke
    Joined: 01 Apr 2004
    Posts: 13
    Location: Atlanta, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Press charges??? Banishment???

    How do you propose to press charges against someone who may not know they are doing anything wrong?????

    ??????

    hell, there aren't even any No Tresspassing signs on the property.

    let's come back down to earth here.

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    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
    Posts: 76
    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey Jet, on the rock drop you speak of, for those that do not want to drop the ledge there is a kind of notch in the rock ~2-3 feet from the small end that is quite easy to roll down and is also the line of choice for riding up the rock. That line keeps you on the rock up and down instead of where many people(not pointing fingers here) have widened the trail by going around the rock completely. Will post the pic tomorrow morning.

    On a separate note, if you are doing unauthorized work on land that isn't yours it's a pretty safe bet it's wrong.

    Tucker

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    mountainman
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 03 Jun 2004
    Posts: 28
    Location: Acworth, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject:

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    Hey Tucker,

    I think this is the reroute Charlie said we were going to do at the Sept work party. Maybe kick it up higher in the woods for the approach and straight line it after the drop and possibly ramp the creek!!

    If so, we could fix the multipaths then.

    As for signs, one of my good friend's dad owns Capital Signs. I can check with them on a discount.

    Also, bummer I'm going to have to bail on the Thursday night ride, I have to pull an overnighter for work that night. I'll be out there Friday at noon!
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    murchman
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 25 Jan 2004
    Posts: 79
    Location: Canton
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:45 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Some of you take what is posted here way too seriously or literally. No one is going to shoot anyone or even hurt anyone. People are just upset that the trail is being changed without permission over and over again. As one of the people that helps fixe the trail when things are moved or removed I to am getting tired of it but no one is going to hurt anyone so calm down.

    The is a place where people can vent their feelings about something we all have the same passion about, views will be different and words will fly but once you get everyone out on the trail its just jokes and laughs about how silly these post are.
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    mountainman
    Mountain Biker
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    Location: Acworth, GA
    Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:53 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey Jeff,

    As stated earlier, I have to bail on the Thursday ride, but...I still would like to watch your copy of Kranked 5!!!

    PM me your phone number if you get a chance!
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    I work to live...so I can live to ride.

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    DVNT
    Dirt Dawg
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    Posts: 52
    Location: roswell GA
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:09 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    The is a place where people can vent their feelings about something we all have the same passion about, views will be different and words will fly but once you get everyone out on the trail its just jokes and laughs about how silly these post are.


    Exactly! Another thing to keep in mind next time a thread like this comes up. It's not just SORBA members that lurk on this site. Park officials, land owners and others may check the trail pages every now and then to keep tabs on what we are up to.
    Not everybody is as passionate about cycling as some of us are and may take these "threats" seriously, no matter how ridiculous they may seem.

    How would it look to a park official that is reading these threads that was considering letting Sorba build trails on it's land.....

    Post responsibly.
    and peace out yo!

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    K2K
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 17 Jun 2004
    Posts: 34
    Location: Alpharetta
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:10 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lighten up... did you not see the laffy guy at then end of the post. If in the land of the free and home of the brave-America you cannot rant about crap aimlessly then why be here... I guess I'll go to Cuba so I can Rant and be arrested without any action. Expressing frustration with fantasies of violence is older than dirt. Actually shooting someone is a different matter.

    Mtbr are you afraid someone may be goaded into action by the forum words? Perhaps tv violence will have a bigger impact? Bugs Bunny is a rabble rouser too. But the daffy could take a shotgun blast to the face like no one's business... Any way sorry to rant aimlessly... isn't that the point of a forum. If it was journalism it would be published. Send these aimless words to whomever you like. Woodstock Police, Army CoE, GBI, FBI, CIA, NSA, Interpol... let em all come. I got some ruby ridge for them right here...
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    DVNT
    Dirt Dawg
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    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:39 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    i'm with you on that and i think everyone on this planet should lighten up.

    needless to say it doesn't mean that someone can't use it as ammunition to fuel their own agenda whatever that may be.

    Off topic, this guy i work with, his fiance got a little angry at her neighbors for cutting their hedges and threatened to kill them while holding hedge trimmers (a deadly weapon???). Now she's got 14 months of prison left to serve for 2 counts of terroristic threats.

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    TomC
    Stump Jumper
    Joined: 26 Jan 2004
    Posts: 177
    Location: Roswell, GA
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:40 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Awright everybody...super chill...please...

    I think I speak for everyone when I say Blankets is our baby, and we love the place dearly. Naturally when a problem like this comes along we're upset about it, and we're likely to succumb to emotional responses rather than rational ones.

    Yeah...we're angry, but let's exercise diplomacy and maturity when dealing with the problem, because if we fail in those respects, it will not bode well on the mtb community ("jeez - those mtber's are *ssholes! Let's go string wire across their trail!"). It's our responsibility to educate - not castigate (hey - I made a ryhme). My opinion is that pressing charges right off the bat is too extreme, because there's a lot to this situation that we just don't know. There are valid points/questions as to why this trail vandalism happened, but we just don't have the answers.

    My action herein, as stated before, would be to post signage, and not just on the trail but at the trailhead/parking lot as well.

    Secondly we should address just how we should behave if we encounter someone removing rocks and other stuff. Are you going to yell? Furrowed brows and angry confrontations are met with a similar mindset; the end result can sometimes be nothing - no resolution, and in worse cases fisticuffs.

    We don't want that. We're better than that. We should take careful, diplomatic and deliberate steps towards addressing the situation. By doing so we will garnish and maintain more respect from the cycling and noncycling communities.

    Jus' my two cents...again.

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    wrxbiker
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 25 Jan 2004
    Posts: 54
    Location: Acworth, GA
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:17 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We rode both trails at 6:30 AM Saturday morning and it was fine. It must have happened a bit later, but by the time we left, there were quite a few people there.
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    Hardtail in Georgia
    Dirt Dawg
    Joined: 10 Dec 2003
    Posts: 76
    Location: Canton, GA
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:04 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The picture spoken of above. Where Jet's bike is located is the correct line, I piled up all of the deadfall you see in the upper-left of the picture on Wednesday morning to block where people are cutting through the woods there.


    Tucker

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    Duckman
    Stump Jumper
    Joined: 11 Mar 2004
    Posts: 111
    Location: Kennesaw
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:35 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That fork looks familiar.
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    msh1
    Training Wheel Tyke
    Joined: 01 Apr 2004
    Posts: 13
    Location: Atlanta, GA
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:22 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't get it... where are all the missing roots and rocks?

    Your original post said that someone "has removed all of the rocks and roots from the climb"

    I still see roots and rocks...

    Is this a picture of the section that was vandalized??????????????

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    SFPRSR
    Training Wheel Tyke
    Joined: 09 Dec 2003
    Posts: 17
    Location: Cumming, Ga
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lighten up!!!??? K2k you were the one talking about shooting someone. You need to go ride some more to get rid of that anger. I see that your post got removed. GOOD.

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    K2K
    Mountain Biker
    Joined: 17 Jun 2004
    Posts: 34
    Location: Alpharetta
    Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:11 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am the "lightest" old fat guy you may ever encounter. If my previous tongue in cheek post was pulled well I guess the irony was lost on the moderator... Oh well.

    I will holster my water pistol. And when I encounter the vandal I will educate them and entreat them with politically correct ecological arguments and perhaps even entice them with encouraging words to join a work party and see how it is done.

    Ken

    PS I will be thinking bad thoughts the entire time though
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  24. #24
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    Well

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboulder
    aunt, uncle, cousins are all horse owners and riders. None of them are Bloated? or self righteous......Thet are very respectful of other trail users...your weak generalizations make YOU seem pretty self righteous though.

    Last year...as a joke....I gave my aunt a small shovel and gunny sack for a christmass present....called it an equine pooper scooper......she took me seriousley and carries it with her....cleans up after her horse....she says it freaks all the other riders out.

    s
    I guess I am a little self righteous. I am myself bloated too. So I guess my statments were hypocritical. And it was a very weak generalization, I'll admit. I usually try not to stereotype anybody. Must've been a dark hour for me. Hey, I don't even like talking about defecation, but there it is!

    Congradulations on your exceptional family. How do they train their horses to not "cr@p all over the trail and generally tear things up." as you said. I guess your aunt has half of that figured out.
    Last edited by Lotusfinger; 07-29-2004 at 06:23 PM.
    Lotusfinger

  25. #25
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by round00

    If you follow SORBA's, and I'd wager other MTB org's web forums, this sort of thing happens ALL OF THE TIME. People, bikers - and you can take this personally if you want - I'd probably say the only ones who take it personally are the ones who are out there doing illicit "trail maintenance" - are responsible for digging up and rerouting trails.

    Hikers do not do this.
    snip for clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by round00
    These are just facts and the biking community must deal with this in it wants the other users to consider allowing bikers on land that now does not permit biking.
    Is the above quote your words?

    If so why do you continue to push this as fact?

    you continue to insist that no hiker would ever reroute a trail or remove an obstical. You're very mistaken if you believe that. and before you generalize me as a person who must be doing illegal trail "maintence", spend a little time on this board and find out what kind of MTBer/person I am.

    done feeding the troll.
    b

  26. #26
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    snip for clarity.



    Is the above quote your words?

    If so why do you continue to push this as fact?

    you continue to insist that no hiker would ever reroute a trail or remove an obstical. You're very mistaken if you believe that. and before you generalize me as a person who must be doing illegal trail "maintence", spend a little time on this board and find out what kind of MTBer/person I am.

    done feeding the troll.
    Thanks for the insightful post.

    I am not going to get into a name calling match with you... You ask me to discover what kind of person you are? So far I see you are one of those guys who shouts "troll" whenever someone disagrees with you.

    You didn't respond to the ligitimate issue raised by my post.... You can wave your arms in the air and yell "these are not facts" all you want.. but my friend, these are the facts you will have to deal with if you are interested gaining more access for mountain bikers.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
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    I never made any blanket statements.

    I wanted to clarify if you were the person saying that hikers do not take part in the "trail maintence" as you discribed it. Now I know you feel this way.

    I never said that some MTBers do the same. however you continue to be unwavering in your inablity to see the fault in you statement about which groups have a bad apples. I would arugure that ALL user groups have them. I've seen first hand what hikers will do to a trail in the name of "maintence". I think you need to deal with that fact.

    What have I contributed to this thread??? just pointed out the obvious to all the rest on this board. now would you like to share your passion for mountain biking with the group? and prove me wrong?
    b

  28. #28
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    I wanted to clarify if you were the person saying that hikers do not take part in the "trail maintence" as you discribed it. Now I know you feel this way.

    I never said that some MTBers do the same. however you continue to be unwavering in your inablity to see the fault in you statement about which groups have a bad apples. I would arugure that ALL user groups have them. I've seen first hand what hikers will do to a trail in the name of "maintence". I think you need to deal with that fact.

    What have I contributed to this thread??? just pointed out the obvious to all the rest on this board. now would you like to share your passion for mountain biking with the group? and prove me wrong?
    Dude, if you have spent any time in the wilderness, you know hikers do not just go around modifying trails. And I know, as a rider, most moutain bikers do not either. But when you compare the number (as a percentage) of incidents of bikers modifying trails and hikers... come on, man!?! What have you hiked, Brian? You done any real hiking? I hope you spout a bunch of trails you have hiked, otherwise, I call BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    now would you like to share your passion for mountain biking with the group? and prove me wrong?
    what this means I can only guess.... but I am guessing you mean I should bow down to the majority sentiment when it comes to wilderness areas and believe, since I ride a bike, I should be able to ride it wherever I want?

    Brian, do you think all mountain bikers think alike? Do I have to share the belief that I should be able to ride wherever I want to have the "passion". To have "passion" for biking do I have to think like you?

    Give me a break, dude.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
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    The comment about sharing your Passion for MTBing

    with us,

    was asked because you didn't like me calling you a troll. By your response you clearly missed the name of the forum on which you are posting and what the spirit of this place is about....Passion for Mountain Biking. If you have it, then you can share you love for mountian bike and be a contributing member of this internet community.

    If you don't and are here simply to yell at people then you are a troll.

    Where do you get your numbers for percentages of hikers modifiying trails vs. bikers? just because you say it doesn't make it so.

    Let's limit this comparison to non-wilderness areas. I'm not being trite, I'd really like to see a ligetament study on the subject. In my experience, Hikers have done more illegal trail alteration than bikers. in your's, it's the opposite.

    Why do I have to spout off trails that I've hiked to make a comment on what hikers do to trails?

    The last hike I went on was with a US Congresswoman to gain her continued support in saving Public access to an area for hiking, horseback riding, and mountain biking.

    Prior to that, I hiked the wilderness I mainly hiked was the western slope and crest of the Sandias in Albuquerque, NM. Now that i'm on the east cost I hope to hike in the White Mountians in New Hampshire. (is that good enough for you?)
    b

  30. #30
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    Check out the Warrior's Society site for more info

    http://www.warriorssociety.org/News/...rt5-28-04.html

    Chris Vargas and other Warrior's members have spent a lot of time and money fighting the Sierra Club . I believe that August 16th the last day to send in your comments

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by round00
    Dude, if you have spent any time in the wilderness, you know hikers do not just go around modifying trails.
    i have spent alot of time in the wilderness, backpacking pretty much all my life in hoover, yosemite wildernesses especially. i believe you are dead wrong. hikers not only 'modify' trails, they also frequently just ignore them and cut switchbacks, etc...

    i personally 'modify' trails, when i hike and when i pedal. it's called trail maintenance, and i try to do it in a thoughtful and sustainable manner. sometimes it means blocking off a steep erosion-prone switchback, sometimes it means cutting deadfall across the trail, sometimes it means benching in a sidehill trail a little more where it's getting blown out by people that don't steer well (or don't walk straight).
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  32. #32
    OldTeen
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    I have nothing against horses, but in my 2+ decades hiking & biking in the Midwest I have seen more trail damage from horses than I care to think about. Some of the WORST trail experiences I've had have been hiking trails open to horses. In my current home state of IN the opening of 'wilderness' state park trails to horses rather quickly leads to deterioration of the trail IMHO. Careless hooves do MUCH more trail damage than any 26" tire, and the droppings are a whole 'nother issue. Think about what some nut cutting trails riding their horse can do the the native fauna. A small singletrack hiking/MTB path (read minimal environmental impact) can turn into a 10-ft wide path (major environmental damage) in just a single season open to horses. Personally, I now avoid ANY trail open to horses (except for those specifically groomed for controlled riding).

    Regarding hikers and wilderness trails- one must also consider the damage caused by trash, poorly controlled campfires,etc.

    Bottom line is that there are bad apples in hiking, biking, and horseback riding. These individuals need to be held accountable for detroying public resources. They are NOT a sufficient reason to close remote outdoor areas to everyone.

    BTW- I fully understand the need for controlled access to "wilderness areas", but what good is a wilderness area if no one can EVER use it??????

  33. #33
    Do It Yourself
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    Mankind is a virus spreading over mother earth. Save the planet, kill yourself.
    Long Live Long Rides

  34. #34
    Kearsarge crawler
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    Quote Originally Posted by round00
    Dude, if you have spent any time in the wilderness, you know hikers do not just go around modifying trails. And I know, as a rider, most moutain bikers do not either. But when you compare the number (as a percentage) of incidents of bikers modifying trails and hikers... come on, man!?! What have you hiked, Brian? You done any real hiking? I hope you spout a bunch of trails you have hiked, otherwise, I call BS.



    what this means I can only guess.... but I am guessing you mean I should bow down to the majority sentiment when it comes to wilderness areas and believe, since I ride a bike, I should be able to ride it wherever I want?

    Brian, do you think all mountain bikers think alike? Do I have to share the belief that I should be able to ride wherever I want to have the "passion". To have "passion" for biking do I have to think like you?

    Give me a break, dude.
    Why is it that we have to go and do trailwork where hikers cut switchbacks because it makes for a shorter route for them, why can't they stay on the trail...damn agro-fuk's.
    Last edited by minkhiller; 07-30-2004 at 03:43 PM.
    Your bike can take you anywhere, anytime, over any terrain but, you have to force it to GK 2004. BB1, who started it?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by round00
    Dude, if you have spent any time in the wilderness, you know hikers do not just go around modifying trails.
    As if building the trail in the first place isnt a "modification" And, no, you never see little piles of rocks everywhere left by every 3rd idiot hiker so he can find his way home.

    And dont get me started on those lame-ass $250 titanium ski poles.

  36. #36
    trail waggler
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    Word...

    Spoken like a TRUE enviromentalist

    Oh wait, maybe it's not an all-or-nothing issue; could there really be room for compromise

    Me, on my bike, turning around at the Wilderness Boundary; party of ten horses with riders from a commercial livery, making a profit off public wilderness lands, continues on their way to the delicate alpine tundra. What's wrong with this picture?

  37. #37
    Wolf nipple chips
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    a solution to one problem...

    forest fires a problem? introduce strip mining! strip mining prevents forest fires....

  38. #38
    trail waggler
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    Scary...

    But the USFS actually clear-cut a section of logpole forest (with a singletrack down the middle of it) here on the CO Front Range, in the name of fire mitigation. Yup, cutting down all the trees to protect the forest

    I could see the benefits of thinning, as it was a continuous crown section of forest, which is very dangerous for wildfires, but clear-cutting? I think that Gee-dubbja calls it ecologically beneficial deforestation

  39. #39
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    as far as the sierra club goes

    Quote Originally Posted by daveM
    But the USFS actually clear-cut a section of logpole forest (with a singletrack down the middle of it) here on the CO Front Range, in the name of fire mitigation. Yup, cutting down all the trees to protect the forest

    I could see the benefits of thinning, as it was a continuous crown section of forest, which is very dangerous for wildfires, but clear-cutting? I think that Gee-dubbja calls it ecologically beneficial deforestation

    Sometimes you have to ask for a lot in order to get a little. sometimes the Sierra Club asks for too much... sometimes people ignore how sensitive trail access is, and then it gets taken away... and sometimes the forest gets leveled altogether. The Sierra Club does some good stuff here and there... here in New Jersey if it weren't for the Sierra Club mobilizing its member base, one of my favorite places to ride (Hamburg Mountain and the Rt 57 area) would be a wonderful new housing development - just like the rest of the state. The Sierra Club helped out a lot saving that area, a lot of SC people showed up at a lot of town meetings... and got something done. so don't knock everything they do.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by round00
    Dude, if you have spent any time in the wilderness, you know hikers do not just go around modifying trails.

    In many places, they do.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredsv
    If all of the mountainbikers joined Sierra Club, we could change their policy on biking. Then we would have a truly powerful lobby.
    And if the snowmobilers, 4 wheelers, hunters, and loggers join, they can change it too.

    Look, the mentality of the Sierra Club and most other advocacy groups like them is to limit use of public (and private) resourses to those uses THEY deem to be okay.

    It's apparent that mountain bikers in general tend to be more liberal in terms of public and social policy but it's also apparent that those policies are now starting to conflict with the interests of mountain biking in the form of wilderness restrictions, general trail closures, and litigation as it's now affecting the Big Bear downhill community and others. Mountain biking is starting to face the same challenges to our way of life as hunters, fishermen, and gun owners; 4 wheelers, etc.

    It's going to be interesting to see how this community deals with this politically now that we're a target of an increasing number of advocacy groups; groups once thought to be allies.

    Is your individual right to ride more or less important than submitting to somebody else's idea of the greater good of society?

  42. #42
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    Humm....

    Quote Originally Posted by round00
    Thanks for the insightful post.

    I am not going to get into a name calling match with you... You ask me to discover what kind of person you are? So far I see you are one of those guys who shouts "troll" whenever someone disagrees with you.

    You didn't respond to the ligitimate issue raised by my post.... You can wave your arms in the air and yell "these are not facts" all you want.. but my friend, these are the facts you will have to deal with if you are interested gaining more access for mountain bikers.
    Any trail user group basically represents a microcosm of society. I don't really understand you original point. People (not mountain bikers, hikers or equestrians) damage trails. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's from ignorance, sometimes it's from apathy and sometimes it's simply poor trail design.

    You made some gross generalizations regarding mountain bikers based on a thread on a local bulletin board regarding trail sanitation and posted it here. What you didn't provide are facts backed up with data or a source.

    Mountain bikes have a similar impact to hiking and less impact than equestrians on trails. Hikers impact the trail more when descending because their heels dig in to the trails and mountain bikes impact the trails more when ascending because their tires tend to dig in to the trail more. On level trail, their impacts are the same. Equestrians impact trails more due to the amount of PSI they exert based on their weight and the fact that at any given time, only 2 or 3 of their hooves are on the ground. Here's the bibliography of several sources: http://www.imba.com/resources/scien...ct_summary.html

    I do feel that mountain bikers often times come across as sanctimonious toward other trails users. I don't feel this is intentional however, in order to gain access, we've worked extremely hard to educate ourselves on the science of trails and user impacts. So many of us enter in to discussions on users and user impacts with the confidence that our point of view is supported by facts and not emotion and hyperbole. Sometimes this results in the perception that we're arrogant. When mountain bikers make gross generalizations regarding other trail users, we only exacerbate this situation.

    So taking your approach, I contend that hikers destroy trails and the environment based on the attached hiking only trail. (I don't really feel this way and am being sarcastic to demonstrate that your approach/contentions are based on emotion and not science).

    Ken
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    yes, thanks for this list...

    it's now front & center on the BFA website!
    "...his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

  44. #44
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    New question here. do not support these companies known to donate cash to the SC

    Quote Originally Posted by dpdsurf
    ...and do not support these companies known to donate cash to the SC either. That's right, REI and Performance Bike! and they sell Mountain Bikes.
    REI is no surprise but, are you sure about Performance? How do you know?

  45. #45
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    I believe that, overall, the Sierra Club has done FAR more good that harm, and I will not boycott any of those often excellent companies known to support them (especially REI and Performance). However, until this trail access issue is sorted I will choose to donate to other environmental orginizations instead of them.

    I don't know how this rift between cyclist and the sierra club started, but it is definitely counterproductive. I suppose there are a lot of rude and careless riders out there- especially those you try to go "extreme" on multi-use public trails.

    Has IMBA tried to extend an olive branch to the club? If we could get over the minor issue of trail access I think we'd find a lot in common. Maybe we could jointly implement a program to educate mtb buyers about proper trail use and etiquete, and why it is important- even a pamphlet handed out at purchase telling you why you should not skid, etc. We could get a lot more (and more important, mututally beneficial, things) done if we acted in our numerous common interests rather than batteling each other. But how do we approach this situation? That is the problem. I'd say it should be worked through IMBA.

    It just baffels me why they support equestrians and not MTBers though.

  46. #46
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    You're just plain wrong! Every Mountain Biker knows the Sierra Club is the epitome of all that is evil and selfish in this and every other universe! How do we know? They hold a position on one aspect of one issue that is in opposition to our interests! Therefore, anything else they do that may appear to be "good" or "beneficial" is obviously just a front for their true, nefarious purpose: to screw mountain bikers!!!



    Quote Originally Posted by hill_climber
    Sometimes you have to ask for a lot in order to get a little. sometimes the Sierra Club asks for too much... sometimes people ignore how sensitive trail access is, and then it gets taken away... and sometimes the forest gets leveled altogether. The Sierra Club does some good stuff here and there... here in New Jersey if it weren't for the Sierra Club mobilizing its member base, one of my favorite places to ride (Hamburg Mountain and the Rt 57 area) would be a wonderful new housing development - just like the rest of the state. The Sierra Club helped out a lot saving that area, a lot of SC people showed up at a lot of town meetings... and got something done. so don't knock everything they do.

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    Sierra club background

    Nice post, Ken.

    It helps to understand the Sierra Club a little to know where they are coming from. Their original focus was the Sierra Nevada and preserving the backcountry, keeping it wild. Over time, they've become a national force with a broader focus, but if you consider their roots, they come from a "keep it wild" perspective.

    National policies of the club represent the thinking of the club's national governing body. But within local chapters, there are a wider range of "stances" or attitudes. The club chapter for the Santa Cruz / Monterey Bay area, for example, doesn't like bikers OR horses, so in that region, there have been some pretty good alliances built between cyclists and equestrians to create and maintain multiple use opportunities

    There is an agreement between the National Sierra club and IMBA, called the Park City Agreement. Not all the local chapters support this agreement, and some of them have and do advocate a more militant "No bikes" stance.

    About a decade ago, there was sort of a "velvet revolution" with the club. A younger, more militant crowd took over the national governing body in a bitterly contested election, after narrowly losing the previous election. Of course, only about 10% of the national membership bothered to vote.

    The club, in my opinion, while becoming more forceful, more partisan, lost some of its broad appeal. The magazine became less scientific and more political.

    By the way, because the club does have local chapters that you are automatically assigned to if you join, it would be possible for a well organized local mountain bike club to join the SC en masse and influence the local chapter, which is usually where local problems stem from.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drewdane
    You're just plain wrong! Every Mountain Biker knows the Sierra Club is the epitome of all that is evil and selfish in this and every other universe! How do we know? They hold a position on one aspect of one issue that is in opposition to our interests! Therefore, anything else they do that may appear to be "good" or "beneficial" is obviously just a front for their true, nefarious purpose: to screw mountain bikers!!!

    I hope you're being sarcastic.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hill_climber
    I hope you're being sarcastic.
    Nope, this represents sincerity:



  50. #50
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    I don't care for the current state of the SC....

    ...but without them, the Grand Canyon would probably be dammed.

    They put up a good fight for Glen, but lost it. Not that it matters, "Lake" Powell is gonna dry up anyway.

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