Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 67

Thread: Utah Land Grab

  1. #1
    Medium?
    Reputation: Fast Eddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,654

    Utah Land Grab

    I read this on the Blue Ribbon Coalition site (4x4 advocacy). The petition by the Outdoor Industry Association (OIA) is signed by a bunch of backpacking companies and such.

    Edit: I just realized that this is Moab that they're talking about! Ouch.

    The OIA letter: http://www.sharetrails.org/uploads/O...ion_Letter.pdf

    BRC response: https://www.sharetrails.org/public-l...pushed-in-utah

    Comments?

    (x-posted to the Utah forum)

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: skiahh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,534
    Land grab against whom? It seems that MTBing would still be allowed. National Monuments designate their own rules about trail usage.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't support redesignating land by decree, but I think the OHVers stand to lose the most; not us.
    www.teamnavycycling.org
    10 Pivot Mach 429
    09 Felt Nine Race
    03 Litespeed Tuscany

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    88
    I'm not in favor of the locals and state having an end run around them. Guess signers think no one in Utah is smart enough to manage this.
    Last edited by skinewmexico; 11-20-2012 at 09:25 PM.

  4. #4
    Your Best Friend
    Reputation: Silentfoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,837
    Because the locals shouldn't have a say in how their state is run?

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    88
    Locals should have the final say, not the Feds.I think everyone in the Moab area does a great job of sharing the land. Except for the National Parks. And the National Park system is due for an update.
    Last edited by skinewmexico; 11-20-2012 at 09:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,119
    Quote Originally Posted by skinewmexico View Post
    Locals should have the final say, not the Feds.nine think the Moan area does a great job of sharing the land. Except for the National Parks.
    Um Sorry but..Most of the land in the Moab area is BLM = FEDERAL. The difference is that BLM has had a policy in the past of of "it's all open to use." However, believe it or not, BLM policy has been changing in the last decade. Lots of the open camping/recreational use is being limited. You can't just camp anywhere in the Moab area anymore. You can't just ride anywhere anymore. Much is driven by wildlife such as Bighorn Sheep. Some is driven by high impact usage.

    But the sharing is not necessarily determined by the locals. The locals can express their views since this drives their economy but in the end the Govt gets to dictate the rules.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Thor Lord of Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by skinewmexico View Post
    Locals should have the final say, not the Feds.nine think the Moan area does a great job of sharing the land. Except for the National Parks.
    National parks are there for a good reason, have understandable regulations, and fulfill their mission...deal with it. Guess you could blame Teddy.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,750
    4x4s are allowed in Canyonlands National Park on some trails, so it's not like they will be banned if the area around Canyonlands N.P. is designated as a national monument. I guess the Jeepers are worried that some of the trails will be shut down because of environmental concerns. Jeeps are fun, but the desert ecosystem is more important than 4-wheeling.

    This is really a non-issue for mountain bikers.

  9. #9
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,998
    Just because it is a non issue for mountain bikers at the moment does not mean that it won't be in the future. I believe that excluding one group just makes it easier to exclude another in the future. Divide and conquer.

  10. #10
    Medium?
    Reputation: Fast Eddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29 View Post
    Jeeps are fun, but the desert ecosystem is more important than 4-wheeling.

    This is really a non-issue for mountain bikers.
    Read the list of supporters of the letter. There's no MTB companies on it. Once the enviro-nazis get on a roll, who do you think will be next?

    Point is that there is already a stringent management plan in place and there's no reason for a decree to change it. That decree would be a precedent.

    If you think your MTB access is safe, go read some of the wackiness on the PCT-L. People think that you are a menace to society, bro.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hoban's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    417
    Or there are some of us that own a Jeep, mountain bike, and backpack. Taking land away is no good.

    On the other hand it looks like they are trying to save it from drillers and gas companies. The offroad and mountain biking industry bring so much money to Utah that it will be unfortunate if they ever severely limit usage. That and it's also the best 4-wheeling in the US.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jmmorath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,085
    Hi!
    A Utahn here!

    This would "take land away" how exactly, and from whom...?

    I am sorry to join in on what surely will be quite a mess soon this but when people start ranting on about "land grabs" of places that they didn't even know existed (And I quote, "Edit: I just realized that this is Moab that they're talking about!") I get irked.

    Here's the deal in a nutshell,

    Utah right now is steeped in a lot of fighting over state and federal land and natural resource extraction. It's been going on for decades but has gotten more attention recently.
    The state legislature has been in a hubbub and decided to vote for a meaningless non-binding resolution demanding the federal government to give all the public lands over to the state so that they could essentially hand it over to private resource extraction interests without federal regulation.

    (Obviously this is not ever going to actually happen- this is akin to a temper tantrum out of a two year old for a cookie, but with a far less chance of success).

    What this did do is show saber rattling against the outdoor community which is a major part of Utah and it's economy. This is why you know what a "Moab" is and why so many companies you have heard of that are on that open letter have addresses in Utah.
    People visit and live and own businesses in Utah because of the 4-wheeling, biking, rafting, skiing, climbing, etc. and all these things rely on federal protection to remain what we want it to be. And yes this includes ATVs and 4x4s.

    This letter was to make a statement to not only the federal government but to people like you who like to visit places like Moab that not all of Utah stands by the nuts in our state legislature and that we still want outdoor recreation protected.

    So go back to your 4x4 forum and remind them about other national monuments that have been protected for them such as the Grand Staircase, the entire Great Western Trial, and Hovenweep.

    What National Monument designation does is restrict and put under more public scrutiny and just makes it less of a free for all and protects citizens' rights to enjoy it without getting mashed to bits for resource extraction and the like.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jmmorath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,085
    Oh yeah, by the way,

    Everyone who thought that this isn't an issue for mountain bikers or that no mountain bike companies were on that list, do yourself a favor and google "Quality Bicycle Products" which is a Utah based company that's on the list.

    Here. I'll do it for you Quality Bicycle Products: Bikes, Wholesale Bicycle Parts, Wholesale Bicycle distribution

    Camelbak and some bike guide companies are on there too, by the way.

  14. #14
    More Chasmism
    Reputation: hfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    791
    A few points:

    (1) None of the established biking areas immediately around Moab are threatened by this designation, per my perusal of the map. I would peg the big losers as the moto-ers.

    (2) I don't support the designation, only because I feel it drives old and hackneyed wedges between user groups. That's like 1990s Moab: the jeepers vs. the bikers vs. the hikers vs the ????? in some zero sum game. The Moab of the last 5 years is a testament to the opposite of this: multiple use, managed well (I dare say, though few agree) by a chronically underfunded and under appreciated agency (BLM).

    (3) One fallacy runs rampant. Each user group thinks they uniquely drive Moab's economic engine. Truth is, you could take any of the individual groups away (even some of the biggies, like jeepers or bikers), and Moab would hurt, but it would go on. No one user group holds so much sway over the Moab economy so as to throw their perceived weight around so divisively What makes Moab work more than anything (IMHO) is the diversity of use.

    (4) As a tax paying citizen of Grand County (and Moab City), my opinion on how to handle nearby federal land should matter exactly as much as that of any other citizen in the US, (even some dude in Jersey who doesn't know what Canyonlands is). As lidaman emphasized, it's FEDERAL land, and certainly no more my land than any other American's land.

    hfly
    Last edited by hfly; 11-20-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,258
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy View Post
    Once the enviro-nazis get on a roll, who do you think will be next?

    Nazis were an overwhelming force that tortured and murdered human beings.

    Environmentalists are a minority group who champion for clean air, clean water, native plant and animal habitat, and open space.

    Name calling in general is pretty low brow, but comparisons like this are uncalled for IMO.

  16. #16
    Go make a difference
    Reputation: k2biker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,236
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy View Post
    Read the list of supporters of the letter. There's no MTB companies on it.
    There are several local MTB guide companies who've signed it....

    Also, this could backfire on MTB-ing depending on how the decision makers clasify a bicycle. It's a touchy subject -- on one hand bicycles are classified as vehicles (see your state's driving handbook) and on the other, we don't want to be so MTB access can be had. Watch your local Sierra Club emails, they LOVE to call a bicycle a vehicle and let's face it, they have more political clout than IMBA. WE can change that, however.
    Charles Myrick
    33North Adventures | Owner
    Bike | Climb | Hike | Paddle
    New trips: Tibet & Bosnia!

  17. #17
    Diggity Dog
    Reputation: ShinDiggity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    397
    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    Oh yeah, by the way,

    Everyone who thought that this isn't an issue for mountain bikers or that no mountain bike companies were on that list, do yourself a favor and google "Quality Bicycle Products" which is a Utah based company that's on the list.

    Here. I'll do it for you Quality Bicycle Products: Bikes, Wholesale Bicycle Parts, Wholesale Bicycle distribution

    Camelbak and some bike guide companies are on there too, by the way.
    FYI, QBP is headquartered in Minnesota though they do have a distribution center in Ogden, Utah. They are very active in, and contribute much to the cycling community nationwide.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    88
    So is it normal for National Monuments to allow 4x4 and MTBs? I can't think of any in New Mexico that do, but maybe that's not the norm. Personally, I'd rather deal with the BLM than the NPS.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: skiahh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,534
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy View Post
    Read the list of supporters of the letter. There's no MTB companies on it. Once the enviro-nazis get on a roll, who do you think will be next?

    Point is that there is already a stringent management plan in place and there's no reason for a decree to change it. That decree would be a precedent.

    If you think your MTB access is safe, go read some of the wackiness on the PCT-L. People think that you are a menace to society, bro.
    There aren't any MTB manufacturers on the list, but there are many MTB companies on the list. Companies that sell MTBs, fix MTBs, sell parts and/or components and gear and companies who run MTB trips. So yes, there most definitely MTB companies on this list.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    Hi!
    A Utahn here!

    This would "take land away" how exactly, and from whom...?

    I am sorry to join in on what surely will be quite a mess soon this but when people start ranting on about "land grabs" of places that they didn't even know existed (And I quote, "Edit: I just realized that this is Moab that they're talking about!") I get irked.
    Really? I think he knew it existed, what it was and where it is. May have even ridden there. What he didn't realize is that the subject area included Moab. That kind of response and presumption lessens your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    The state legislature has been in a hubbub and decided to vote for a meaningless non-binding resolution demanding the federal government to give all the public lands over to the state so that they could essentially hand it over to private resource extraction interests without federal regulation.

    (Obviously this is not ever going to actually happen- this is akin to a temper tantrum out of a two year old for a cookie, but with a far less chance of success).
    While it's not going to happen, it's not meaningless. In politics actions like this are pretty strong. It's kind of like the US saying they "deplore" the action of another country. It seems meaningless to most of us, but it has meaning. And, should the your elected officials in Salt Lake decide it's worth it, they have means, through the courts and other avenues to attempt to put some teeth into such a resolution. However, like you said, this one seems to be more for show - sending a message.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    This is why you know what a "Moab" is
    Again, the condescension doesn't help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    What National Monument designation does is restrict and put under more public scrutiny and just makes it less of a free for all and protects citizens' rights to enjoy it without getting mashed to bits for resource extraction and the like.
    It also allows managers to disallow certain uses. Look at the Colorado National Monument, for example. No MTB access there. So it most definitely has the ability to restrict uses. Would a Canyonlands National Monument manager kill MTBing? Maybe. OHVing? Maybe. They could. Do they have the ability to license mineral extraction? The Death Valley National Monument has mining rules, so we're back to increased scrutiny, potential restrictions and even potential mineral extraction use.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Nazis were an overwhelming force that tortured and murdered human beings.

    Environmentalists are a minority group who champion for clean air, clean water, native plant and animal habitat, and open space.

    Name calling in general is pretty low brow, but comparisons like this are uncalled for IMO.
    Nazis were also people who thought and acted with the premise of my way is the best, I'll accomplish it any way I can, regardless of who's in the way and didn't really think beyond the end of their noses. Environmentalists aren't like that, but there is a extremist subset within the environmentalist community who do think and act like that. They burn buildings (putting tons of pollutants into the air) to show a building shouldn't be there. They drive large metal spikes into trees to "protect" the tree, potentially murdering human beings in the process. They are some of the most short sighted, arrogant, holier than thou people I've come across, and if you have the audacity to disagree with anything they so fervently hold to be right, then you become the scum of the earth, not worth the CO2 you're polluting the air with every time you exhale. Though the term "enviro-nazi" is overused, it has its place as an accurate description of some of the people "championing" the cause.
    www.teamnavycycling.org
    10 Pivot Mach 429
    09 Felt Nine Race
    03 Litespeed Tuscany

  20. #20
    MTBR member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    724
    On the flip side. Utah is forced to take hazardous waste from other states & countries that it wholeheartedly does not want. The federal government is hypocritical; they want to protect UT lands from oil & gas, but force us to take hazardous waste?

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hoban's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by skinewmexico View Post
    So is it normal for National Monuments to allow 4x4 and MTBs? I can't think of any in New Mexico that do, but maybe that's not the norm. Personally, I'd rather deal with the BLM than the NPS.

    X2. The NPs around here don't even allow my dogs on the trails. I don't visit them. Bad move, and there has to be another way to not allow the lease to gas companies.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Thor Lord of Thunder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoban View Post
    X2. The NPs around here don't even allow my dogs on the trails. I don't visit them. Bad move, and there has to be another way to not allow the lease to gas companies.
    National parks and national monuments are not the same thing, and are not managed in the same way. Also not the same as national wilderness area, which a few other comments seem to allude to. All of this seems a little knee-jerk, as a move to declare a NM would be to prevent drilling and other energy development. Seems a little premature to say this would affect recreation to the extent some are assuming. If it moves in that direction, then appropriate discussion is warranted...but the landscape level effects of energy development and its implications in this area might be a better topic.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hoban's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    417
    National Monuments are usually more restrictive than Parks, generally because of their size and purpose.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,258
    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Nazis were also people who thought and acted with the premise of my way is the best, I'll accomplish it any way I can, regardless of who's in the way and didn't really think beyond the end of their noses. Environmentalists aren't like that, but there is a extremist subset within the environmentalist community who do think and act like that.






    Though the term "enviro-nazi" is overused, it has its place as an accurate description of some of the people "championing" the cause.

    In response to the first statement, there are extremists in every group- I wonder if you are a bigot in other regards.


    To the second I say bull honky. People (like me) are accused of being enviro-nazis because we may place more importance on a river, an animal species, or an eco-system than an individual or corporation's financial well being. So I am a "Nazi" because I believe clean air and water free of pcb's are of more value than cheap energy and plentiful plastic crap.

    If it makes you feel better, we (environmentalists) are losing big time to big money so you have little to fear from us greenies, and I still contend that points on all sides would be less diminished by avoiding childish name calling.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    714

    Enviros bad for us, bad for USA

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Environmentalists are a minority group who champion for clean air, clean water, native plant and animal habitat, and open space.
    This statement is not true.

    The environmentalists are a (wealthy) special interest group that wants to keep almost everyone out of public land. And they want to destroy the United States by crippling energy production, manufacturing, etc.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •