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Thread: Utah Land Grab

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber View Post
    This statement is not true.

    The environmentalists are a (wealthy) special interest group that wants to keep almost everyone out of public land. And they want to destroy the United States by crippling energy production, manufacturing, etc.
    Easy to say living in a flat state with no biodiversity, mountains or anything else worth protecting.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinewmexico View Post
    So is it normal for National Monuments to allow 4x4 and MTBs? I can't think of any in New Mexico that do, but maybe that's not the norm.
    I always thought that NMs were essentially governed the same as NPs.

  3. #28
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    "Eco-Nazis"?

    "Tea Bagging elderly diabetics"?? (yes, that's my preferred term for the Blue Ribbon Coalition)

    When will the silly name calling cease??

    By the way, here is what is permitted and what is not permitted on western National Monuments:

    http://headwaterseconomics.org/wphw/...itted_Uses.pdf

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber View Post
    This statement is not true.

    The environmentalists are a (wealthy) special interest group that wants to keep almost everyone out of public land. And they want to destroy the United States by crippling energy production, manufacturing, etc.
    So much hate in this statement, it's hard to know where to begin...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #30
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    Hmmm... neg rep'd for my comments. Pretty much expected that (and that whoever did it wouldn't sign it; that's also part of the extremist MO), but I was just wondering if anyone could translate the gibberish that was posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by anon neg repper
    The number of enviro-fanatics vs the tremendous nazi-strati, makes them inconsiquential, and your reasoning for their infamous existence is now mythical
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So much hate in this statement, it's hard to know where to begin...
    Maybe it was Todd Akin posting?

  7. #32
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    Divide and Conquer

    Yes, don't worry about it as it does not seem like it will affect MTB's.

    Sure, just review what has happened all across the country and you will realize that we are being divided and we will eventually be conquered due to our ignorance. The green (don't say Nazi now as it may offend some candy ass) groups know this and use it to their advantage. It always amazes me that the desert recovered nicely from nuclear test blasts but we are under fire for rolling our fat tired bikes across our "public" lands!

    Wake up and take action before they target our slice of the sport (our right to pursue happiness).

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So much hate in this statement, it's hard to know where to begin...
    and ignorance.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    Oh yeah, by the way,

    Everyone who thought that this isn't an issue for mountain bikers or that no mountain bike companies were on that list, do yourself a favor and google "Quality Bicycle Products" which is a Utah based company that's on the list.

    Here. I'll do it for you Quality Bicycle Products: Bikes, Wholesale Bicycle Parts, Wholesale Bicycle distribution

    Camelbak and some bike guide companies are on there too, by the way.
    Yeah, I am nitpicking, but QBP is a Minnesota company with a distribution center in Utah. Salsa and Surly among others are QBP brands

  10. #35
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoban View Post
    National Monuments are usually more restrictive than Parks, generally because of their size and purpose.
    Actually, it can the opposite. Read Dirt Farmer's link

    http://headwaterseconomics.org/wphw/...itted_Uses.pdf

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemcg View Post
    Yes, don't worry about it as it does not seem like it will affect MTB's.

    Sure, just review what has happened all across the country and you will realize that we are being divided and we will eventually be conquered due to our ignorance.
    Well you nailed this one, instead of addressing important issues in a productive way we spend most of our energy attacking and blaming.

    The green (don't say Nazi now as it may offend some candy ass) groups know this and use it to their advantage.
    Don't worry about offending my "candy ass", if you need to resort to middle school social tactics go right ahead, it only diminishes your already weak point.

    It always amazes me that the desert recovered nicely from nuclear test blasts but we are under fire for rolling our fat tired bikes across our "public" lands!

    You ever been to a former nuclear "ground zero" test site? Been there before the test? Feel free to fill your canteen from some groundwater there!

    Wake up and take action before they target our slice of the sport (our right to pursue happiness)
    .
    Well there you have it- your right to pursue happiness pretty much trumps all, future generations be damned.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Hmmm... neg rep'd for my comments. Pretty much expected that (and that whoever did it wouldn't sign it; that's also part of the extremist MO), but I was just wondering if anyone could translate the gibberish that was posted:
    That blows. I think rep. function should probably be disabled in off topic/ political threads. I disagree about the extremist MO though, extremists usually scream for attention and want to be known.

  13. #38
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    Divided we fall

    OK frog face (oops, sorry, more middle school antics), when they come for your favorite riding spots, we'll see how you respond then.

  14. #39
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    How does one "sign" neg or pos reps?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    That blows. I think rep. function should probably be disabled in off topic/ political threads. I disagree about the extremist MO though, extremists usually scream for attention and want to be known.
    Yes, under the cover of their organization, but not as an individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber View Post
    How does one "sign" neg or pos reps?
    Just put your user name after your snarky/witty/thoughtful (or, apparently, in some cases incomprehensible) comment.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    By the way, here is what is permitted and what is not permitted on western National Monuments:
    http://headwaterseconomics.org/wphw/...itted_Uses.pdf
    I am quite familiar with the Canyons of the Ancients National Monument area (the second National Monument listed on the pdf) and am quite certain that mountain biking continues to be allowed in the Sand Canyon area. Scroll down to the Sand Canyon Trailhead. A bit more about Sand Canyon here.

    Sand Canyon is in southwestern Colorado about 20 minutes west of Cortez in McElmo Canyon. For reference, Cortez is near the base of Mesa Verde National Park.
    Phil's World is a few miles up the road from Cortez, towards Durango.

    I suspect that when lands are converted to National Monument status, many existing uses, such as mountain biking, would be grandfathered in but creating new multi-use trails would be much, much more difficult because of onerous requirements to do various kinds of environmental impact studies. Again, speculation, but can anyone confirm this?
    Last edited by June Bug; 11-25-2012 at 06:26 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by June Bug View Post
    I am quite familiar with the Canyons on of the Ancients National Monument area (the second National Monument listed on the pdf) and am quite certain that mountain biking continues to be allowed in the Sand Canyon area. Scroll down to the Sand Canyon Trailhead. A bit more about Sand Canyon here.

    Sand Canyon is in southwestern Colorado about 20 minutes west of Cortez in McElmo Canyon. For reference, Cortez is near the base of Mesa Verde National Park.
    Phil's World is a few miles up the road from Cortez, towards Durango.

    I suspect that when lands are converted to National Monument status, many existing uses, such as mountain biking, would be grandfathered in but creating new multi-use trails would be much, much more difficult because of onerous requirements to do various kinds of environmental impact studies. Again, speculation, but can anyone confirm this?
    Like any proposed action on Federal land, a new trail proposal of any significance would be subject to the NEPA process. I'm not 100% sure on all the particulars but I believe a National Monument designation can have a lot more flexibility written into it's creation than a national park.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemcg View Post
    Yes, don't worry about it as it does not seem like it will affect MTB's.

    Sure, just review what has happened all across the country and you will realize that we are being divided and we will eventually be conquered due to our ignorance. The green (don't say Nazi now as it may offend some candy ass) groups know this and use it to their advantage. It always amazes me that the desert recovered nicely from nuclear test blasts but we are under fire for rolling our fat tired bikes across our "public" lands!

    Wake up and take action before they target our slice of the sport (our right to pursue happiness).
    Ignorance? "The desert recovers nicely from nuclear test blasts"? Really? Are you insane? Have you ever looked at Google earth and the Nevada Test Range? Please go check out the lasting impact, and I'm not even talking about radiation, but there's that too. It might not be enough radiation to require PPE if just passing through, but just to make that outlandish statement with no research or experience is just beyond me. Then you claim that these are the ones "dividing people"? Sounds like these are some of the few actually looking out for our future, the rest are just about ME and what they can pillage plunder and steal while they are alive.

    A 1979 study reported in the New England Journal of Medicine concluded that:
    A significant excess of leukemia deaths occurred in children up to 14 years of age living in Utah between 1959 and 1967. This excess was concentrated in the cohort of children born between 1951 and 1958, and was most pronounced in those residing in counties receiving high fallout.[12]
    In 1982, a lawsuit brought by nearly 1,200 people accused the government of negligence in atomic and/or nuclear weapons testing at the Nevada Test Site in the 1950s, which they said had caused leukemia and other cancers. Dr. Karl Z. Morgan testified that radiation protection measures in the tests were substandard.[13]
    In a report by the National Cancer Institute, released in 1997, it was determined that ninety atmospheric tests at the Nevada Test Site (NTS) deposited high levels of radioactive iodine-131 (5.5 exabecquerels) across a large portion of the contiguous United States, especially in the years 1952, 1953, 1955, and 1957—doses large enough, they determined, to produce 10,000 to 75,000 cases of thyroid cancer. The Radiation Exposure Compensation Act of 1990 allowed for people living downwind of NTS for at least two years in particular Nevada, Arizona or Utah counties, between 21 January 1951 and 31 October 1958, or 30 June and 31 July 1962, and suffering from certain cancers or other serious illnesses deemed to have been caused by fallout exposure to receive compensation of $50,000. By January 2006, over 10,500 claims had been approved, and around 3,000 denied, for a total amount of over $525 million in compensation dispensed to "downwinders".[14] Additionally, the Energy Employees Occupational Illness Compensation Program Act of 2000 provides compensation and medical benefits for nuclear weapons workers who may have developed certain work-related illnesses.[15]
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Ignorance? "The desert recovers nicely from nuclear test blasts"? Really? Are you insane? Have you ever looked at Google earth and the Nevada Test Range? Please go check out the lasting impact, and I'm not even talking about radiation, but there's that too. It might not be enough radiation to require PPE if just passing through, but just to make that outlandish statement with no research or experience is just beyond me. Then you claim that these are the ones "dividing people"? Sounds like these are some of the few actually looking out for our future, the rest are just about ME and what they can pillage plunder and steal while they are alive.
    A huge chuck of the country took a hit. St. George Utah was like the US cancer capital for a time - I still wouldn't live there. The west coast received nothing of course ... which might explain a few things ...

    Remember, if people believe that the "end of days" is upon us, then they have no reason to conserve anything.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Like any proposed action on Federal land, a new trail proposal of any significance would be subject to the NEPA process. I'm not 100% sure on all the particulars but I believe a National Monument designation can have a lot more flexibility written into it's creation than a national park.
    Yes, absolutely, but I was referring to a process that would be more difficult in National Monument status relative to BLM. BLM is structured to promote multiple uses of resources; the National Park Service, and by extension, National Monuments, are structured to protect resources.

    Relative to the thread in general, just as I try to remember when there is heavy congestion on the highway, I'm not IN traffic; I AM traffic. Why are we so shocked at the prospect of oil and gas exploration ruining our wilderness experience when every single person who visits Moab gets there in a car? Running on gasoline. Maybe a Nissan Leaf has driven through Moab, but not likely. I want to be clear that I don't support drilling and resource extraction in the view shed, but please contemplate the irony.

    Also take a few minutes to contemplate that Moab for most of its existence was a tiny, ratty, hardscrabble town with a moribund economy based on ranching and an expired uranium mining industry with a BLM office and a few outfitters. The film Raiders of the Lost Ark changed all that, but I like to remember Moab pre discovery.

    Its beauty and attendant attractions have brought a lot of unpleasant aspects that always accompany the type of explosive and uncontrolled development that has afflicted Moab; this, to me, is in some ways just as unattractive as a well pad. However, most people are so adjusted to this type of typical urban strip development and traffic congestion that it just seems normal.

    All for now; I wandered a bit off topic.......got to get ready for Cranksgiving in the morning.

  21. #46
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    I do like riding a bike, and hiking, in places which are not industrial, not polluted, and more the work of God than Man. I am definitely not wealthy. I used to be active in the Sierra Club, so any haters out there can call me what you will.

    Those of you who are rude on this forum are just showing yourselves. Your anger politics are obviously more important to you than the discussion with other forum members.

    Those of you who have the patience should keep up with changes like this in areas you care about. The stakeholder processes are boring, but do usually result in all interests getting some consideration. I see IMBA getting some respect in these negotiations.

  22. #47
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by June Bug View Post
    Yes, absolutely, but I was referring to a process that would be more difficult in National Monument status relative to BLM. BLM is structured to promote multiple uses of resources; the National Park Service, and by extension, National Monuments, are structured to protect resources.

    Relative to the thread in general, just as I try to remember when there is heavy congestion on the highway, I'm not IN traffic; I AM traffic. Why are we so shocked at the prospect of oil and gas exploration ruining our wilderness experience when every single person who visits Moab gets there in a car? Running on gasoline. Maybe a Nissan Leaf has driven through Moab, but not likely. I want to be clear that I don't support drilling and resource extraction in the view shed, but please contemplate the irony.

    Also take a few minutes to contemplate that Moab for most of its existence was a tiny, ratty, hardscrabble town with a moribund economy based on ranching and an expired uranium mining industry with a BLM office and a few outfitters. The film Raiders of the Lost Ark changed all that, but I like to remember Moab pre discovery.

    Its beauty and attendant attractions have brought a lot of unpleasant aspects that always accompany the type of explosive and uncontrolled development that has afflicted Moab; this, to me, is in some ways just as unattractive as a well pad. However, most people are so adjusted to this type of typical urban strip development and traffic congestion that it just seems normal.

    All for now; I wandered a bit off topic.......got to get ready for Cranksgiving in the morning.

    OK, I thought you were asking what a new trail in a monument vs a park.

    I'd have to do some research to say for sure but I do seem to remember that a monument status doesn't preclude new trails, no matter what the use. I suppose the travel management plan for the monument would be similar to a non monument BLM land in that it will have different use prescriptions and some of those prescription would be more restrictive than others. I would assume that if the main reason for the creation of the monument is protection of unique resources there would be more restrictive travel prescriptions in the monument area than there would be if it where just generic BLM land, although that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Motor and mechanized travel would be restricted to designated routes, but this is the direction that travel management on all federal land has been going for quite a few years.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber View Post
    This statement is not true.

    The environmentalists are a (wealthy) special interest group that wants to keep almost everyone out of public land. And they want to destroy the United States by crippling energy production, manufacturing, etc.
    Wow.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber View Post
    This statement is not true.

    The environmentalists are a (wealthy) special interest group that wants to keep almost everyone out of public land. And they want to destroy the United States by crippling energy production, manufacturing, etc.
    There may in fact be a few wealthy environmentalists, but there are far more who are of average means.
    Ever since the election, though, I've noticed a dramatic uptick in delusional thinking, of the sore-loser variety.
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  25. #50
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    To my anonymous neg. repper- Thank you for taking the time to write me a personal note. I now know the error of my ways and will from here on out refer to environmentalists as "nazis" which as you eloquently stated is the most accurate description of that horrid group.

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