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Thread: Trail Closed

  1. #1
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    Trail Closed

    The trail system near my house has become a government casualty.

    Doesnít the government realize I only have a few weeks to maybe a month (if Iím lucky) of good riding weather left? Then itís going to get cold and then snow!

    Trail Closed-closed-1.jpg

    Trail Closed-closed-2.jpg

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    That stupid yellow tape doesn't look very sturdy. I'd be inclined to ignore it and go on about my business, the furloughed park police gonna arrest you?

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    ^^ Agreed. I've plowed though branches that did more to slow me down than that yellow tape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZmyDust View Post
    ^^ Agreed. I've plowed though branches that did more to slow me down than that yellow tape.

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    Silly politicians , who do they think they are fooling.

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    It probably took more manpower to put up that barricade than the government usually uses on that park in a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkinite View Post
    It probably took more manpower to put up that barricade than the government usually uses on that park in a week.
    And more than the five guys they gave to protect a ambassador !

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    I'm all about respecting trail closures, as long as it's for vegetation re-growth, or preserving the habitat of the purple, Swahili speaking, unicorn Tortoise....but this, this is ridiculous. I say ride on!

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    I road in a State Park today... Lots of heavy duty barriers added... Everybody was out on the trail though... Even State Park personnel in tractors doing park repairs and maintenance... I assume they were all volunteers... On the way back, ran into 2 groups with their night ride gear... Guessing all the hike only trails are now in use too...

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    Why would STATE park people be volunteers?

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    Trail Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn View Post
    I road in a State Park today... Lots of heavy duty barriers added... Everybody was out on the trail though... Even State Park personnel in tractors doing park repairs and maintenance... I assume they were all volunteers... On the way back, ran into 2 groups with their night ride gear... Guessing all the hike only trails are now in use too...
    The Feds are shut down, not the state.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Why would STATE park people be volunteers?
    One of our local state parks in Maine works very closely with some local mountain biking groups to develop trails. The mountain bike groups provide labor thru volunteers.

  13. #13
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    Who is gonna stop you from riding in a park if all the workers for it are laid off?
    Just circles turning circles....

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    Ah, a fellow Farmdale rider. I assume you read the long thread on the PAMBA facebook group page concerning this. I will just say to use your best judgement.
    Grit, spit, and a whole lot of duct tape!

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    Our local trails are "closed." Screw 'em. It's not like the US Forest Service does that much work anyway. We can have trees down for months before anybody does anything and it's usually one of the local riders getting fed up and taking his own chainsaw to the thing.

    After all the taxes I pay, all that I've done for this country, after obeying the law and being a good citizen for my whole life this is how I am repayed? By some petulant, time-serving, lazy federal employee trying to keep me from riding on a trail that requires little if any government intervention to keep open?

    The arrogance and condescension of our servants in the federal bureaucracy is breathtaking.

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    Just ride anyway. If enough people would take this unique opportunity to show who actually owns what it could go a long way toward clarifying a lot of misconceptions being rammed down peoples throats and up their other end.

    Obviously this criminal gang has run outa funds and is desperately scrambling for excuses to murder people and maybe confiscate one of your bikes but I say F em and good riddance.

  17. #17
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    Yeah I felt the shutdown at my local trail also. We went out Saturday and were welcomed by barricades before even reaching the parking lot. A lot of people were just parking on the road outside the barricades and still using the trails. I saw no sign of any officials the whole weekend. I rode Saturday and today.

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    Trails here also in Iowa closed - on Army Corp land, but 100% maintained by volunteer bike clubs.

    BS

    Chad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad_M View Post
    Trails here also in Iowa closed - on Army Corp land, but 100% maintained by volunteer bike clubs.
    I agree this is all BS.

    I do like the fact that our controversial governor actually stood up and said that the Federal shutdown will not affect Wisconsin state run operations.

    Our STATE parks are open for business! Come on up!

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    I rode Backbone trail (Santa Monica Mountains) from Kanan through Corral Canyon and back. Plenty of others there riding and hiking. Stupid barricades just laying on the ground off to the side.

  21. #21
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    The only closure I've seen yet is an outhouse(!) - go figure - in the Uintahs near Kamas, Utah. They probably had to pay a guy overtime to drive up there and put up a sign that said it was closed. Knowing what people would do, outside of a locked outhouse, and the fact that he'd probably have to clean it up, he had the good sense NOT to lock the doors.

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    Here are the signs that we were greeted with here in New Mexico. Didn't seem to matter much here. Lots of people out on the trails regardless. Great weekend for a ride. What a waste of time and money to put up all those signs all over the country.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Trail Closed-gounvernment-closure-001.jpg  

    Trail Closed-gounvernment-closure-002.jpg  

    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

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    I was in the national forest all weekend. Nothing any different. but there are no services where I was either.

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    It's not about a budget. It's about control, they'll push and push untill one day they cross the line then Whaalah! 1776 2.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by blmpkn View Post
    It's not about a budget. It's about control, they'll push and push untill one day they cross the line then Whaalah! 1776 2.0
    Can't get here soon enough!

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    Looks like an opportunity to practice bunnyhops.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorider228 View Post
    I'm all about respecting trail closures, as long as it's for vegetation re-growth, or preserving the habitat of the purple, Swahili speaking, unicorn Tortoise....but this, this is ridiculous. I say ride on!

    Ditto!!
    I have a trip coming up next week to the Grand Canyon and I have already checked out alternative entry points to the park via MTB.
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    The problem is that a lot of you have been conditioned to accept that every activity in life requires government paperwork, documentation, and the approval of a lawyer. The bureaucratic-legal-police complex rules this nation with a barely concealed iron fist.

    It wasn't always this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owtdorz View Post
    Ditto!!
    I have a trip coming up next week to the Grand Canyon and I have already checked out alternative entry points to the park via MTB.

    Good luck with that. They closed the state highway through the park because they couldn't stop people from pulling out at the "closed" overlooks...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica View Post
    Good luck with that. They closed the state highway through the park because they couldn't stop people from pulling out at the "closed" overlooks...
    It's parts of th Az Trail.
    About a 1/2 mile east of the gate/road and takes me right up to the canyon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    The problem is that a lot of you have been conditioned to accept that every activity in life requires government paperwork, documentation, and the approval of a lawyer. The bureaucratic-legal-police complex rules this nation with a barely concealed iron fist.

    It wasn't always this way.
    Nudge , push, shoot, they didn't buy all those rounds of hollow points because they like amo manufacturers.

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    Part of the NFS and BLM job is to lease lands for logging, mining an grazing. For some reason I feel the shut down does not affect these things.

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    Sadly, there are people in government who *want* us to suffer during this (very limited) fed gov't shutdown. And we pay their salaries and benefits. And they are supposed to serve us, we the people. Instead they want to punish us.

    Shameful.

    TR

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    Concur with everything said, and if I were near fed land, I would likely ride past the barriers, too.

    A couple things to consider, though:
    1. It is possible that not all Rangers/Park Police were furloughed, even if most of the park staff was. You might still be surprised.
    2. Consider that should you get injured in a closed park, you might have difficulty getting help, as the usual park infrastructure is not there and paramedics will be stuck at a locked gate miles from the trail where your mangled body lays.
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  36. #36
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    Trail Closed-img_20131008_153825_938.jpg

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by owtdorz View Post
    It's parts of th Az Trail.
    About a 1/2 mile east of the gate/road and takes me right up to the canyon.
    FYI

    Grand Canyon Cites People For Entering Closed Park ¬ę CBS Las Vegas

    Nearly two dozen people have been issued citations for entering Grand Canyon National Park

    ...each of the 21 citations issued as of Monday has a mandatory order to appear in federal court.


    ....law enforcement will be patrolling the park around the clock. Most other park employees have been furloughed.

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by owtdorz View Post
    Ditto!!
    I have a trip coming up next week to the Grand Canyon and I have already checked out alternative entry points to the park via MTB.
    There are ways to get in via FS roads but not from the Desert View Watchtower/Cameron side

  40. #40
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    Me too. Mary's Peak Recreation Area wouldn't allow me to put my $5 day use fee into their little box, and I was more than willing to do so. Seems odd in this republican shutdown, I mean government shutdown that I can't even pay my fee. We certainly rode anyways, although we didn't have "trail closure" signs to cross over. By mid day on the Peak, there had to be 15 cars in the main parking lot, so other felt the same way. Amazing, thinking that each of those cars were worth $5 to the USFS.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Here are the signs that we were greeted with here in New Mexico. Didn't seem to matter much here. Lots of people out on the trails regardless. Great weekend for a ride. What a waste of time and money to put up all those signs all over the country.
    It is a liability issue really.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant Chachi View Post
    ... Seems odd in this republican shutdown...
    Republican shutdown is exactly what the federal government wants you to believe.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by elder_mtber View Post
    Republican shutdown is exactly what the federal government wants you to believe.
    Oh come on. At least go with the shadow government or TPTB (the powers that be), or something. I can think for myself, and I have no doubts that while Congress is all f*&ked right now, once sde is certainly more at fault than the other. Don't get me wrong, I certainly try not to fall into the right-left paradigm, but in this case, there clearly is no question. The ACA is a LAW, backed by the Supreme Court! You'd think after 40+ times of trying to vote it down, they would get a clue, but I guess not. If you ask me, it is treasonous and they should be held accountable for their actions. Sorry, didn't mean to make this political, but I got pulled in. Bottom line, I rode in a close federal park, didn't pay my $5 and enjoyed it!
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant Chachi View Post
    Oh come... The ACA is a LAW, backed by the Supreme Court! You'd think after 40+ times of trying to vote it down, they would get a clue, but I guess not. If you ask me, it is treasonous and they should be held accountable for their actions...
    Well, you can add "ignorance is bliss" to the "taxes and death" saying. The entire group of them ARE the problem, including the "Community leader and chief," the House, the Senate, the DOJ, the DOD, the Veterains Affairs office, the state department and so on. They are still funding $h!t that would make reasonable people's heads spin in good times; They are still sending foreign aid (your tax dollars and borrowed money) to hundreds of countries, they will be paying unemployment benefits to the "nonessential worker" that they furloughed, continue to pay out hundreds of billions of dollars to disability, of which they say 25% is most likely fraudulent claims, spend more money to close monuments and parks than it would to leave them open; You get my point. They are all a bunch of self serving, narsasistic, courageless, teen age acting, overpaid losers, including Obama, the republicans and democrats.

    BUT, most of you people continue to vote these morons into office to continue tightening the "control your life" noose around your neck! SO.... Who is really at fault here?

    Your living with what you voted for...
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  45. #45
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    ...here we go...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Pilot View Post
    They are still sending foreign aid (your tax dollars and borrowed money) to hundreds of countries, they will be paying unemployment benefits to the "nonessential worker" that they furloughed,
    State governments, not federal, are responsible for unemployment insurance/benefits. Filed for mine last week since my agency considered me non-essential.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishful Tomcat View Post
    State governments, not federal, are responsible for unemployment insurance/benefits. Filed for mine last week since my agency considered me non-essential.
    Who pays for unemployment of those that live in D.C.? Will you pay back your unemployment, IF, your payed retroactively? Enjoy your time off; I did a little too much for my 1 year layoff, including crushing collar bone and later dislocating shoulder.

    Folks, the gov't owns NOTHING; We the people do!
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  48. #48
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    It's your property, go ride. Accept the risk and consequences though. The .gov can eat it.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica View Post
    I saw that sign this weekend too. So did about 5-6 others in the parking lot going for a hike and the other 7-8 cars probably saw it too. It did not stop anyone. Ride on!
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  50. #50
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    I rode this weekend despite the shut down. However an official was harassing someone saying he was recording license plate numbers to give over to the sheriff. What would be your guys response to this and is there anyway to actually get in trouble? I mean this area is ran by the Army Corp of Engineers presumably funded by OUR tax money so shouldn't I be aloud to get some f*&^%$#@ exercise in despite the f*&^s in Washington without worrying about getting slapped with a fine? I could go somewhere else but that puts me out at least an hour any direction. I'm sad.

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    My concern is getting arrested for trespassing on federal land.

    You may have the theory that you personally, not the federal government, owns the land. That theory is not correct.

    From NPR: Trespassing in a national park carries a maximum fine of $500 and up to six months in jail, according to the Criminal Resource Manual issued to U.S. attorneys.

    Don't kid yourself that the man will not bother you if a bunch of people are using the park. Many years ago, I was arrested for trespassing on private land. I was off-roading in my Jeep. Old owner allowed people on land. He sold it to a development group. They had the police crack down one weekend - 130 some odd people were arrested on the same day.

    Ride if you want, but as someone said earlier, "Accept the risk and consequences". Realize these consequences may make your future more difficult. A federal arrest may land you in court (hence money out of your pocket for an attorney), impact your current job, and follow you in future educational and employment opportunities.

    Just a thought. . .

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    My concern is getting arrested for trespassing on federal land.

    You may have the theory that you personally, not the federal government, owns the land. That theory is not correct.

    From NPR: Trespassing in a national park carries a maximum fine of $500 and up to six months in jail, according to the Criminal Resource Manual issued to U.S. attorneys.

    Don't kid yourself that the man will not bother you if a bunch of people are using the park. Many years ago, I was arrested for trespassing on private land. I was off-roading in my Jeep. Old owner allowed people on land. He sold it to a development group. They had the police crack down one weekend - 130 some odd people were arrested on the same day.

    Ride if you want, but as someone said earlier, "Accept the risk and consequences". Realize these consequences may make your future more difficult. A federal arrest may land you in court (hence money out of your pocket for an attorney), impact your current job, and follow you in future educational and employment opportunities.

    Just a thought. . .
    Indeed there may be consequences. Case in point, the adventures of the Sedona 5 the last time Grand Canyon Nat. Park was closed. The Sedona 's 5's Excellent Adventure - - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times

    They had to pay for the helicopter ride out but the fine as well as the drug possession charges were dropped. Their bikes, however, still take up space in a warehouse on the south rim.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Pilot View Post
    Who pays for unemployment of those that live in D.C.? Will you pay back your unemployment, IF, your payed retroactively? Enjoy your time off; I did a little too much for my 1 year layoff, including crushing collar bone and later dislocating shoulder.
    You're right about D.C., keep forgetting that they are bankrolled by the Feds. I'm required to pay back my unemployment insurance payments once any back pay comes in but as slow as Maryland is at getting the paperwork done I'll be back before they even cut me a check.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant Chachi View Post
    Oh come on. At least go with the shadow government or TPTB (the powers that be), or something. I can think for myself, and I have no doubts that while Congress is all f*&ked right now, once sde is certainly more at fault than the other. Don't get me wrong, I certainly try not to fall into the right-left paradigm, but in this case, there clearly is no question. The ACA is a LAW, backed by the Supreme Court! You'd think after 40+ times of trying to vote it down, they would get a clue, but I guess not. If you ask me, it is treasonous and they should be held accountable for their actions. Sorry, didn't mean to make this political, but I got pulled in. Bottom line, I rode in a close federal park, didn't pay my $5 and enjoyed it!
    I'm not sure what's treasonous about Congress - who passed the law - attempting to pass another law to cancel the first one. That's how Congress works: they pass laws. Just because there's a law on the books doesn't mean they can't attempt to undo it.

    Hell, if they couldn't, we'd be stuck with slavery or separate but equal or women not being able to own property or....

    That's actually one of their jobs; to represent the people by making, keeping or repealing laws as appropriate. Though I fear they've actually lost any pretense about actually representing us.

  55. #55
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    Can we just impeach the moron already and be done with all his BS.
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  56. #56
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    Re: Trail Closed

    Quote Originally Posted by hanshananigan View Post
    Concur with everything said, and if I were near fed land, I would likely ride past the barriers, too.

    A couple things to consider, though:
    1. It is possible that not all Rangers/Park Police were furloughed, even if most of the park staff was. You might still be surprised.
    2. Consider that should you get injured in a closed park, you might have difficulty getting help, as the usual park infrastructure is not there and paramedics will be stuck at a locked gate miles from the trail where your mangled body lays.
    And a third one:
    3. Without the usual security and support infrastructure there may not be adequate protection for you and the park. It opens the door to Nimrods with spray paint and guns who don't care about you or the scenery.
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  57. #57
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    Re: Trail Closed

    All that said, I'll be in Blacksburg VA tomorrow for a ride and I may be hard pressed to find open trail given the rain. Hmmm, what to do...
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awshucks View Post
    I rode this weekend despite the shut down. However an official was harassing someone saying he was recording license plate numbers to give over to the sheriff. What would be your guys response to this and is there anyway to actually get in trouble? I mean this area is ran by the Army Corp of Engineers presumably funded by OUR tax money so shouldn't I be aloud to get some f*&^%$#@ exercise in despite the f*&^s in Washington without worrying about getting slapped with a fine? I could go somewhere else but that puts me out at least an hour any direction. I'm sad.
    Our Sheriff is an elected official. I think he wants to be re-elected and will not be sending his deputies to harass the voters any time soon.

    Trespassing on Federal lands is illegal. I'm doing it to ride on my local trails because I think it's time for some major civil disobedience and on general principle the land belongs to all of us, not some overpaid slob at the US Forest Service.

    I hope many of you who have been heretofore oblivious now realize how worthless our country and all of its institutions have become and how little your elite masters really deserve their positions of power over us.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Hell, if they couldn't, we'd be stuck with slavery or separate but equal or women not being able to own property or....
    ...or, even worse, prohibition.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica View Post
    Saw a sign like that today, but the one I saw had "F-off, come and
    get me!" written on it. Wish I had a camera or my phone with me...
    Remember when we were kids and our Mom's said we could not play in the mud? I'm making up for it now!!

  61. #61
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    I just wish for the shutdown they REALLY shut down government, except for the military. No electrical power to congress. No traffic lights. No police. No firemen. No ambulance. No air traffic control. No water provided that can't be tested/monitored, and so on. They probably would have gotten it figured out in ONE DAY if they really closed government, and anything that happened in that ONE DAY would have been bad enough to NEVER want to get to that point again. Hopefully I can get back to work soon...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  62. #62
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    And in the meantime, we're all still required to pay our federal taxes...

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I just wish for the shutdown they REALLY shut down government, except for the military. No electrical power to congress. No traffic lights. No police. No firemen. No ambulance. No air traffic control. No water provided that can't be tested/monitored, and so on. They probably would have gotten it figured out in ONE DAY if they really closed government, and anything that happened in that ONE DAY would have been bad enough to NEVER want to get to that point again. Hopefully I can get back to work soon...

    Most of what you mention is paid for predominantly at the local level by state and local taxes. If, for example, the Department of Education vanished from the face of the Earth the effect on your schools would be undetectable.

    I am not against government, just the bloated, self-perpetuating parasitic government.

    (Well, actually the decrease in Federal paperwork and regulations would likely improve your schools)

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qfactor03 View Post
    And in the meantime, we're all still required to pay our federal taxes...
    gotta pay for the 1st class gym for the congress that stays open- while they do nothing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightops View Post
    gotta pay for the 1st class gym for the congress that stays open- while they do nothing...
    You are mistaken, they are doing something - going on the news to say it is the other guy's fault.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post

    (Well, actually the decrease in Federal paperwork and regulations would likely improve your schools)
    Some yes, others no. That's the problem. As a country we have a responsibility to everyone in the country, not just "certain ones".

    Most states get tons of federal money for the things I mentioned, but in any case, shutting down ALL federal services would be a start and get things done real fast.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightops View Post
    gotta pay for the 1st class gym for the congress that stays open- while they do nothing...
    A gym is a good analogy. My rock-climbing gym is closed a couple days for competitions, they re-did the floors over the course of a day or two a few months back. It's not like they refund you your money over that time. That's just life. There's still stuff to pay for, like um, the DEBT, but otherwise the notion that you shouldn't have to pay taxes is ridiculous. When the gov DOES open there will be money spent on lots of critical things and programs, most likely many of which you support.

    Does anyone with a season pass demand to have their money refunded or reimbursed for the day because their ski hill had a world cup and the runs/lifts they wanted to ski were closed off?

    Come on now...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  68. #68
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    The vast, vast majority of money for schools, unless it is in a few Federal enclaves like the District of Columbia, come from local taxes and usually property taxes.

    The money given to the states by the federal government for education come with so many strings attached that the schools would likely see a net increase in funding if the requirement for complying with expensive federal mandates was removed.

    The United States is a Republic of independent states under a federal constitution that grants the federal government limited powers....states are supposed to be able to run their own affairs as they see fit provided nothing they undertake is in violation of the constitution.

    Vermont does not have to be identical to Texas in every respect, in other words. How we arrived at our current state of bureaucratic tyranny is a whole other topic.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Some yes, others no. That's the problem. As a country we have a responsibility to everyone in the country, not just "certain ones".

    Most states get tons of federal money for the things I mentioned, but in any case, shutting down ALL federal services would be a start and get things done real fast.
    See, you missed it and your indoctrination is obvious. The constitution does not say that we have a responsibility for everyone and the founding father's would be aghast at our current civilization-crippling welfare state.

    In fact, until very recently the ethos of our country was that everyone was responsible for their own lives and such help that was given was charity, not an entitlement.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    See, you missed it and your indoctrination is obvious. The constitution does not say that we have a responsibility for everyone
    It doesn't say we need police officers or firemen either. It does say that everyone in the US (does not discriminate between citizens or not) shall not be abridged of life, liberty or property without due process. I'm guessing if we've voted for these things or representatives that voted for them, we've given due process and these are the law of the land.

    The idea that "everyone is responsible for their lives" is ridiculous. You can't possibly be. There's a certain amount of responsibility we can have, but it's not absolute. I can't control the training a pilot has when I board an airliner. I can't control the design or maintenance of bridges when I drive over them. I might be affected by these things, but it's ridiculous to think that my decision to use them forces me to take complete responsibility and I can just say "oh well" when things go wrong. I wish life were that simple, I really do.

    What about your kids, are they responsible for their own lives? lol.

    If you have your own island where you paved your own roads, made your own hospital, do your own air traffic control, certify your own vehicles and airplanes, ensure your own working conditions, grow and inspect your own crops and animals, refine your own fuel, and so on, then yes, you can take absolute responsibility for your life. Problem is, you wouldn't be living in a country anymore.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It doesn't say we need police officers or firemen either. It does say that everyone in the US (does not discriminate between citizens or not) shall not be abridged of life, liberty or property without due process. I'm guessing if we've voted for these things or representatives that voted for them, we've given due process and these are the law of the land.

    The idea that "everyone is responsible for their lives" is ridiculous. You can't possibly be. There's a certain amount of responsibility we can have, but it's not absolute. I can't control the training a pilot has when I board an airliner. I can't control the design or maintenance of bridges when I drive over them. I might be affected by these things, but it's ridiculous to think that my decision to use them forces me to take complete responsibility and I can just say "oh well" when things go wrong. I wish life were that simple, I really do.

    What about your kids, are they responsible for their own lives? lol.

    If you have your own island where you paved your own roads, made your own hospital, do your own air traffic control, certify your own vehicles and airplanes, ensure your own working conditions, grow and inspect your own crops and animals, refine your own fuel, and so on, then yes, you can take absolute responsibility for your life. Problem is, you wouldn't be living in a country anymore.

    Section 8 - Powers of Congress
    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    To provide and maintain a Navy;
    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


    The constitution limits Federal powers to the above tasks. The founding fathers knew and feared the effects of centralized, tyrannical government such as we have today.

    I'm not anti-government, just anti-bloated, federal government. Limited government is best and what government is required should be as local as possible. It is a lot easier to influence your local school board or vote out the mayor then to shut down a parasitic federal program.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    See, you missed it and your indoctrination is obvious. The constitution does not say that we have a responsibility for everyone and the founding father's would be aghast at our current civilization-crippling welfare state.

    In fact, until very recently the ethos of our country was that everyone was responsible for their own lives and such help that was given was charity, not an entitlement.

    I wish I could rep you again, but I need to spread some around first.

    When Jayem wrote "Most states get tons of federal money for the things I mentioned, " I have to wonder if he understands that the federal government gets that money from the taxpayers in the states.
    I'm not very smart, but I can lift heavy things

  73. #73
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    Last week, we fled the Redwood state parks here in the grand state of confusion because a huge wave of refugees from the closed national parks descended on the state parks. We drove about 1M miles of dirt road to the green springs trailhead and campground in the Yolla Bolly Middle Eel wilderness. The campground was not closed and there were several others there. The hike up Hammerhorn mountain on the summit trail in perfect early fall weather was, well, perfect.

    Someone had come into the campground which was festooned with yellow tape and closed signs, collected the tape and the signs and burned them reopening the campground. We left on Sunday and passed the ranger driving out (miles from the CG). He warned us about using closed facilities. Too late!

    Let's all go to our neighborhood national park or seashore and tear down the tape and signs and reopen our own lands like the vets did in washington.

    Also, my wife drove down the Mendocino Pass Road (FR 7) while I got three 6 - 10 mile, 3k descents. Some washboard as my seat impressed on my tender parts!

  74. #74
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    So last week I load up my 4 wheeler and trailer go into the national forest and set up elk camp. Next day shoot my winter supply of meat and head home. Sunday I drove to the usual trail in the national forest and road my bike. I couldn't tell the nonessential services where furloughed. If you are use to using the national forest where there is no services, you have not seen any change. If you are the person that uses the services offered, you have seen a change.

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