Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fatmat71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    70

    Trail building –*A moral dilemma.

    Yello folks. Man it's been awhile.
    Ok here's the dealio. I haven't ridden my bike off road in a couple years and the other weekend me and my family went on a hike of one of my favorite trails. And although the trails was almost the same as when I last saw it, there were some changes that I would like to change back.

    A couple of log drops had been removed. SO, what I was thinking of doing is building them back onto the trail. I feel I have every right to do this, what do you think?

    Cheers, Matt

  2. #2
    Klein sits on shelf now..
    Reputation: AdroitBreaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    173
    Quote Originally Posted by fatmat71
    Yello folks. Man it's been awhile.
    Ok here's the dealio. I haven't ridden my bike off road in a couple years and the other weekend me and my family went on a hike of one of my favorite trails. And although the trails was almost the same as when I last saw it, there were some changes that I would like to change back.

    A couple of log drops had been removed. SO, what I was thinking of doing is building them back onto the trail. I feel I have every right to do this, what do you think?

    Cheers, Matt
    You should probably find out how and why they were removed in the first place, and if there is a group doing trail maintenance in the area, hook up with them and see what they think.

    I know this is a lot more troublesome and time-consuming than just doing it yourself but in the end it's probably better for the trail.

    There are a lot of trail building techniques, ideas and concepts that are pretty straight-forward after someone has described them to you but it's not all that easy to come up with them yourself. IMBA came through my town a couple of months ago and for almost every example of non-sustainable trail design that they showed in their presentation could be found at our local trails.

    That's not to say that these trails suck, or they need to be completely rerouted. They just needed some better planning and a little more time to construct them.

    Technical features are awesome if they are built correctly, take all of the trail users into consideration and if they are sustainable.

    Sorry for the long post but I am a little bummed because several of us built a bridge across a really swampy area over the course of two weekends and some guys decided to adjust the bridge and it's just not as safe anymore.

    It doesn't take too much thought to get it right, but a copy of the IMBA trail-building book definitely helps.

    Hey, if you can make it work well for everybody, run with it.

    Just my 2 cents.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    54
    While I appreciate log crossings as much as the next guy I also appreciate reroutes around them so that I at least HAVE THE CHOICE of whether to ride them or not. Sometimes I just want to fly through the woods at speed and get into the flow of the trail. Logs can interrrupt that flow.

    Here is what I suggest. Build some log crossings NEXT TO THE TRAIL where you can, say, take a fork in the trail, ride the log crossing, and then come back to the original trail and ride on. I think those are the best log crossings because it gives the rider a chioice as to whether to take the fork to ride the obstacle or not.

    NY
    2004 Specialized Stumpjumper M4, Fox Float RLT 100, Propedal.

  4. #4
    There's no app for this.
    Reputation: JimC.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,377

    Adroit is right

    the folks that removed them have the same rights as you to put them back. Do your research before you accidentally start a p!ssing match over "your" logs. Because whoever took them out feels just as strongly that they are "their" logs.

    check IMBA, it's all been done many times before successfully, but to put them back without any forethought invites an unhappy solution.

    Just my .02,

    Jim

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fatmat71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    70
    Some good points there, I'll look into who built the trails. I like the go around idea, but would rather not widen the trail (pisses some folks off) and to tell you the truth they're so tight don't think i could.

  6. #6
    Kearsarge crawler
    Reputation: minkhiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,876
    Quote Originally Posted by fatmat71
    Yello folks. Man it's been awhile.
    Ok here's the dealio. I haven't ridden my bike off road in a couple years and the other weekend me and my family went on a hike of one of my favorite trails. And although the trails was almost the same as when I last saw it, there were some changes that I would like to change back.

    A couple of log drops had been removed. SO, what I was thinking of doing is building them back onto the trail. I feel I have every right to do this, what do you think?

    Cheers, Matt
    Hey Matt check out IMBA's new book. You can get a copy at www.imba.com. This book has the goods on trailbuilding from dealing with the land owner/manager to building the log drops.
    Your bike can take you anywhere, anytime, over any terrain but, you have to force it to GK 2004. BB1, who started it?

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    14
    Easy answer...leave the trail as it is. Find the local club doing the work and get involved.

  8. #8
    *****************
    Reputation: Bikinfoolferlife's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12,379
    Unless you're the landowner I don't see why you have a right to do anything to the trail. Contact the landowner and see what their perspective is, hopefully they're involved with a local group for maintenance that you can hook up with. My vote is for obstacles on trails as long as there's a choice for others who don't or can't do them.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  9. #9
    Glad to Be Alive
    Reputation: SHIVER ME TIMBERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    42,289
    never ask for permission..beg for forgiveness....build em back up
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FISHLEG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    575
    Hey fatmat71, is your avatar an old pic of Snuka?
    Leeann Tweeden is looking for me.....

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Go Kart Motzart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,239
    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    never ask for permission..beg for forgiveness....build em back up
    Great attitude. Thats why the downhilling bunch is losing trails and getting banned.

  12. #12
    desert dweller
    Reputation: mattbikeboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,641
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    Unless you're the landowner I don't see why you have a right to do anything to the trail. Contact the landowner and see what their perspective is, hopefully they're involved with a local group for maintenance that you can hook up with. My vote is for obstacles on trails as long as there's a choice for others who don't or can't do them.

    Exactly, I feel the same way. Get involved with a local club that does trail work. You may find that you can add technical details to the trails as alternates to the main line. And you may get help and support from the people out there doing the work.
    We're starting to try that in our trail work sessions here as well. We'll clean up the main line and then route over some knarly rocks on the edge.

    mc

  13. #13
    501
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,477
    My opinion is that you shoudnt Add logs to a trail unless you are maybe ramping it up, adding smaller logs in front and back of a large tree that is too big for most people to hop over. There are already enough trees that will fall naturally across a trail.

    I would say the reason you maybe didnt see them anymore is because they have already been ridden/rotted away.Two years seems to be around the amount of time it takes to wear a path straight through a log if it is ridden often.

    I do feel that you can remove a tree from a trail if it is done right away. If two or three weeks pass and riders have already made any groove across the top, then the tree should stay in my opinion.

    I am not saying any of this is law, please dont take any of it too seriously.Its just my opinion. It took a long time for me to formulate an opinion on this issue and i can see my mind changing on it.
    Desperately searching for a klein 120mm O-rise MC1 mission control stem /handlebars or any 1 1/4 quill stem equivalent.
    EDIT- HELLOOOOOOOO......... Desperately means i will pay really,really good money for it.

  14. #14
    Young, Shawn Young
    Reputation: Redmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,069
    What ever happened to leave to obstacle the way it is and ride it if you have the skills or walk it until you do have the skills to ride it? I hate seeing things removed that occur naturally in the trail just to make it easier.

    Shawn
    "Im just going to explore a little bit..."

    Dont make me be the bad guy...

    Do I need a pass to ride this trail?

  15. #15
    501
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,477
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmon
    What ever happened to leave to obstacle the way it is and ride it if you have the skills or walk it until you do have the skills to ride it? I hate seeing things removed that occur naturally in the trail just to make it easier.

    Shawn
    I agree...
    Desperately searching for a klein 120mm O-rise MC1 mission control stem /handlebars or any 1 1/4 quill stem equivalent.
    EDIT- HELLOOOOOOOO......... Desperately means i will pay really,really good money for it.

  16. #16
    old timer retro grouch...
    Reputation: Doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    228
    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    never ask for permission..beg for forgiveness....build em back up
    Speaking for those who have seen trails closed because of unsanctioned building...I sure hope you joking and are not so naive to think that is a good policy.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fatmat71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwa2
    My opinion is that you shoudnt Add logs to a trail unless you are maybe ramping it up, adding smaller logs in front and back of a large tree that is too big for most people to hop over. There are already enough trees that will fall naturally across a trail.

    I would say the reason you maybe didnt see them anymore is because they have already been ridden/rotted away.Two years seems to be around the amount of time it takes to wear a path straight through a log if it is ridden often.

    I do feel that you can remove a tree from a trail if it is done right away. If two or three weeks pass and riders have already made any groove across the top, then the tree should stay in my opinion.

    I am not saying any of this is law, please dont take any of it too seriously.Its just my opinion. It took a long time for me to formulate an opinion on this issue and i can see my mind changing on it.


    Yeah these aren't logs in the middle of the trail, these were logs on the steeps that were essential drops you could jump off or drop in.

    And yep that there is the superfly himself .

  18. #18
    Jm.
    Jm. is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jm.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,137
    Quote Originally Posted by IBBake
    Easy answer...leave the trail as it is. Find the local club doing the work and get involved.
    Sorry, that doesn't work. I've tried it and talk about running into a wall. If the club/land user/forestry guy has already decided that they are going to make a "wheelchair accessible" trail, that's exactly what they are going to do and it's usually written in stone.

    Ok, it "might" work in some places, but one problem we have here is that our "mountain bike club" is all roadies that ride a little cross country, and they want it all to be very tame and easy, so that's the focus of the club and the focus of any new trails that get built. When they have superior numbers on their side, there isn't much you can really do.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FISHLEG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    575
    Quote Originally Posted by fatmat71
    Yeah these aren't logs in the middle of the trail, these were logs on the steeps that were essential drops you could jump off or drop in.

    And yep that there is the superfly himself .
    NICE! Ya gotta love Snuka when he was a bad guy, wore black and sported the fro!
    Leeann Tweeden is looking for me.....

  20. #20
    Klein sits on shelf now..
    Reputation: AdroitBreaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    173
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmon
    What ever happened to leave to obstacle the way it is and ride it if you have the skills or walk it until you do have the skills to ride it? I hate seeing things removed that occur naturally in the trail just to make it easier.

    Shawn
    For the most part I agree with you Redmon. I think logs should be removed if they interrupt the flow of the trail though. There is a section that I can think of locally that is really smooth, and really fast and a new log came down just past a slight corner. If you aren't looking for it, you could slam into it at 20 mph without time to bunny hop it and eat it.

    BUT...if it's not going to hurt anybody, I say leave the big ones there. Something has got to chew up my new big ring.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    983
    find out who did the work,
    ask them if they are working with an organization or the landowner.

    preferably work with them to make the trail something everyone can enjoy.

    if you change this, then they change it back to that, then you come in and change it to this again it will turn into a tailspin of doom and nothing will get done.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fatmat71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Brodiegrrl
    find out who did the work,
    ask them if they are working with an organization or the landowner.

    preferably work with them to make the trail something everyone can enjoy.

    if you change this, then they change it back to that, then you come in and change it to this again it will turn into a tailspin of doom and nothing will get done.
    From what little I know here's the rundown about this section of trail.

    The trails in question are run by "Toronto Conservation Authority" basically a public land group like MNR. I believe the trail in question was made by a group of individuals and no real club in the regular sense. It was created by downhillers I think. I'll prolly just leave em be, and ask some questions if I run into somebody that might know what i should do.

  23. #23
    Bad judgement in motion!
    Reputation: alizhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    149

    Neither does the alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Sorry, that doesn't work. I've tried it and talk about running into a wall. If the club/land user/forestry guy has already decided that they are going to make a "wheelchair accessible" trail, that's exactly what they are going to do and it's usually written in stone.
    That's very possible. It's also possible that the group would be happy to accomodate his request. Either way, the decision-writ-in-stone applies only to that trail. If they don't want him to change that trail, maybe they'd let him build a side trail. Look at Fruita: beginner trails just down the slope from hard-core drops and ratchets. It can be done. It just takes effort and patience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    our "mountain bike club" is all roadies that ride a little cross country, and they want it all to be very tame and easy, so that's the focus of the club and the focus of any new trails that get built. When they have superior numbers on their side, there isn't much you can really do.
    That is very unfortunate. I assume that you've politely asked for help building a more technical trail, and they've either refused or prioritized it into nonexistence? Aren't there any riding buddies you can get to join the club, so your odds would improve?
    I'll take the Pain and Humiliation Combo, super-sized.

  24. #24
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    6,634
    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Sorry, that doesn't work. I've tried it and talk about running into a wall. If the club/land user/forestry guy has already decided that they are going to make a "wheelchair accessible" trail, that's exactly what they are going to do and it's usually written in stone.

    Ok, it "might" work in some places, but one problem we have here is that our "mountain bike club" is all roadies that ride a little cross country, and they want it all to be very tame and easy, so that's the focus of the club and the focus of any new trails that get built. When they have superior numbers on their side, there isn't much you can really do.

    you could do what I did, start a new club. Our community has a lot of riding groups: sub sets of bike shops, sub sets of outdoors clubs, sub sets of road groups. I'd ask about advocacy, trail work etc and get told "we're not going to do that" or "we've already picked {name road event} as our community service option." I ragged about it for a while, and then I put my money where my mouth is, and started up a mountain biking specific club with the emphasis on trail work and land advocacy. It's been pretty cool, slowly but surely trail builders and people with similar interests are coming out of the wordwork to see what we are doing. I posted a bit about it in Gen. Discussion, under "building a club"

    formica

  25. #25
    Linoleum Knife
    Reputation: forkboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    3,287
    Quote Originally Posted by fatmat71
    I haven't ridden my bike off road in a couple years....

    I feel I have every right to do this, what do you think?
    "Morally" speaking (no legality questions involved)

    I think if you haven't ridden the trail in a couple of years, you don't have the right to do anything to it except ride it.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 67
    Last Post: 03-01-2005, 06:03 AM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-27-2004, 02:06 PM
  3. West Mag Trail Conditions
    By mtbmike1 in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 05-19-2004, 01:46 PM
  4. Trail map for N. Umpqua trails - anyone?
    By SLinBend in forum Oregon
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-19-2004, 09:47 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •