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Thread: Thanks Fruita!!

  1. #1
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    Thanks Fruita!!

    just for being there really! had a great weekend over there, 3 days of riding, beautiful weather, great friends and plenty of beer....

    Friday nice ride at 18 road, zippity, prime cut, and joes before setting up camp....enjoyed a fire while our crew rolled in, 14 in all...stayed up too late..

    Saturday...moore fun, marys, horsethief and part of steves, will never get over the views. dinner at the Brew co, not bad, not great but got there for happy hour, $2 pints, glad there is a local place to hang out....back to camp for another late, fun night, but not as late as friday...

    Sunday....Ribbon shuttle....Ribbon, hike out, up eagles nest (?) to eagles wing down to holy cross, back up eagles tail backwards to some other downhill to the car...got a little hot, but bearable, we all ran out of water but around the last uphill so we were ok...

    all in all, about 12 hours on the bike, tons of fun...amazingly no pics, we had too much fun to pull the camera out, just wanted to keep riding.

    Thanks to all the Frutians and Junctioners who make those trails happen and keep them in such good shape....
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    enjoyed a fire while our crew rolled in
    I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes.
    And in that last sentence, he didn't put enough emphasis in thanking the trail builders. There should have been 5 more lines complementing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes.
    the best part about this is while writing this i was wondering what kind of criticism you would have...never ends with you does it?....(i can answer that myself)
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    the best part about this is while writing this i was wondering what kind of criticism you would have...never ends with you does it?....(i can answer that myself)
    I'll take that as a "no" answer then, since you dodged the subject. Should we assume that you chopped down a juniper to stoke that fire as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    the best part about this is while writing this i was wondering what kind of criticism you would have...never ends with you does it?....(i can answer that myself)
    Can't you tell from his avatar, he's trolling?

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    nah

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    And in that last sentence, he didn't put enough emphasis in thanking the trail builders. There should have been 5 more lines complementing them.
    I should have added a question as to whether or not they had a groover, or just dumped in our desert up there.

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    I remember once going down the Colorado River Daily (near Moab) with a lady who had some new Grand Canyon guiding cred. She spent the entire time -- on an easy stretch of river with very low flow -- critiquing all the other rafters, inner-tubers, tourists, etc. on their naivete and poor technique. Point is, she seemed miserable and made everyone around her miserable, while the "naive" people she intended to police were having abundant fun, and thus were far more in tune with river than she was.

    "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." -- Suzuki

    God bless the tourists, the naive and those seeing a place for the first time.
    Woe to local expertise.

    hfly

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    things are not always as they seem

    Quote Originally Posted by hfly
    I remember once going down the Colorado River Daily (near Moab) with a lady who had some new Grand Canyon guiding cred. She spent the entire time -- on an easy stretch of river with very low flow -- critiquing all the other rafters, inner-tubers, tourists, etc. on their naivete and poor technique. Point is, she seemed miserable and made everyone around her miserable, while the "naive" people she intended to police were having abundant fun, and thus were far more in tune with river than she was.

    "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." -- Suzuki

    God bless the tourists, the naive and those seeing a place for the first time.
    Woe to local expertise.

    hfly
    Doncha mean "whoah"?

    Whoah to camping on 18 Rd. Look at what happened to Sand Flats and the Riverway on Hwy 128. There are many who want an all-out ban to camping on 18 Rd to prevent the same thing from happening in the Bookcliffs. Whoah to the poached side trails that lead from campsites to established trails on 18 Rd. Whoah to people dumping rats in our desert and burning our 300 year old juniper trees.

    God bless the tourists who stay in town at established/improved campgrounds and hotels/motels and also use proper etiquette while in our deserts. All others can go create woe somehwere else.

  10. #10
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    just in case you got lost with this thread....I REALLY HAD FUN IN FRUITA!!!
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    just in case you got lost with this thread....I REALLY HAD FUN IN FRUITA!!!
    Does having fun include you or your friends pooping in our desert or burning our trees for your oh so precious campfire?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    Does having fun include you or your friends pooping in our desert or burning our trees for your oh so precious campfire?
    Whose are they exactly? Is this privately held land?
    FS: Everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    Does having fun include you or your friends pooping in our desert or burning our trees for your oh so precious campfire?
    Chill the **** out J.D. I could care less if you ****ing invented mt biking, you''ve got to be the biggest knob on here.

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    seeing as i am a coloradan, and the blm land is public land i guess that makes me part owner too...i feel richer today!!
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    seeing as i am a coloradan, and the blm land is public land i guess that makes me part owner too...i feel richer today!!
    It is an awseome place to be part owner of and a big responsibility.
    I wish more people took that view.
    Sounds like a great trip,I was up there Sunday evening the trails are in great shape,makes you feel good to be alive,singletrack as far as you can see. It's fun to see people having fun and a little dissapointing seeing a few people f^ck things up but there are so few of them and so many more of us.
    Cheers!
    I've been inside too long.

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    oh i forgot, the breakfast at poncha villas (breakfast burrito) was outstanding, just don't plan on eating in the place, very smokey, but the park is a nice place to eat...
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  17. #17
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    Interesting, we had decent food there twice and it wasn't smokey. (Breakfast & Dinner)

    Apparantely some of the locals are scared of the place though, it may have some history.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...00528#poststop

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    duh

    Quote Originally Posted by ncj01
    Whose are they exactly? Is this privately held land?
    THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND
    words and music by Woody Guthrie

    Chorus:
    This land is your land, this land is my land
    From California, to the New York Island
    From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
    This land was made for you and me

    As I was walking a ribbon of highway
    I saw above me an endless skyway
    I saw below me a golden valley
    This land was made for you and me

    Chorus

    I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
    To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
    And all around me a voice was sounding
    This land was made for you and me

    Chorus

    The sun comes shining as I was strolling
    The wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
    The fog was lifting a voice come chanting
    This land was made for you and me

    Chorus

    As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
    And that sign said - no tress passin'
    But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
    Now that side was made for you and me!

    Chorus

    In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
    Near the relief office - I see my people
    And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
    If this land's still made for you and me.

    Chorus (2x)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by KgB
    It is an awseome place to be part owner of and a big responsibility.
    I wish more people took that view.
    Sounds like a great trip,I was up there Sunday evening the trails are in great shape,makes you feel good to be alive,singletrack as far as you can see. It's fun to see people having fun and a little dissapointing seeing a few people f^ck things up but there are so few of them and so many more of us.
    Cheers!
    I doubt my point is lost on anyone who really does give a hoot. Then again there are those who don't but think they do, which are the worst of the sad lot of the few losers who tend to destroy what others see as paradise.

  20. #20
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    Alright, it's wonderful that you had a good time, but damn it man, don't you have any pictures? Fruita/GJ is one of the least photographed places off all the MTB "meccas" and I require more for my trail lust. Please post a few if n' ya's gots 'em.

    Let me start you off:


    And yes, thanks to all the Fruitians, GJers, and freak aliens who have helped make riding in Mesa County so much blipping fun.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibmkidIII
    Please post a few if n' ya's gots 'em.
    1. Summer
    2. Winter
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes.
    Pffttt... Californians

    Taking Ben Affleck's breakup hard aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by s1ngletrack
    Taking Ben Affleck's breakup hard aren't you?
    They broke up? Crap I need a beer.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1ngletrack
    Pffttt... Californians

    Taking Ben Affleck's breakup hard aren't you?
    You're doing it again....
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    You're doing it again....
    Like a dog returning to his vomit.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes.
    Holy crap J.D!!

    As a Front Ranging, Goon Squad member, who happens to be in SoCal (only for the moment, thank God) buzzed on Stout, Pale Ale, and Pure Hoppiness, (Sorry, O'Brien's wasn't pouring barley wine) would you please provide me a Western Slope checklist so I know that I'm doing things right when I ride trails in the Grand Valley.

    BTW, my 93-year-old Granny lived in Grand Junction back in the day (you know, when bikes only had one speed and you were just a twinkle in your daddy's eye) , so I expect you to cut me some slack. I expect that said checklist will be checked for accuracy by the every single person who has ever done trail work in Fruita or on the Umcompahgre Plateau. I need to know how to ride the trails on a SS, and on a FR rig (if that is OK), and also how to ride herd on my kids to ensure that the rest of the trail users (those who follow your rules) have an enjoyable experience. I might have a dog with me.

    TIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudpawlz
    Holy crap J.D!!

    As a Front Ranging, Goon Squad member, who happens to be in SoCal (only for the moment, thank God) buzzed on Stout, Pale Ale, and Pure Hoppiness, (Sorry, O'Brien's wasn't pouring barley wine) would you please provide me a Western Slope checklist so I know that I'm doing things right when I ride trails in the Grand Valley.


    TIA
    It is all in the Fruita Fat Tire Guidebook, or on the noticeboards at the parking lots. Though there always seem to be people who have missed it, so it doesn't do any harm to keep reinforcing the message here.
    Wibble

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorcher seb
    It is all in the Fruita Fat Tire Guidebook, or on the noticeboards at the parking lots. Though there always seem to be people who have missed it, so it doesn't do any harm to keep reinforcing the message here.
    its not the message, its the "presentation" of the message that probably irks people...a simple, hey, do you know that you are supposed to blah, blah, blah, instead of the way it was presented probably would have had a bigger impact...
    BBZ

    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Benjamin Franklin

  29. #29
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    A more civil locals reply...

    You're very welcome. I'm glad you were able to hit the good weather and enjoy our trails. Since you had such a great time I hope that you will do your best to preserve the area for future use. I'm sure you are well versed in the "Fruita Yield" of stopping at the side of the trail and leaning the bike to allow others to pass (and staying on the trail if you are the person passing), but did you know that there are special considerations when camping in the desert? First of all, since there are no official fire rings and the desert is so dry, it is recomended that you use a firepan (and bring your own firewood). Be sure that there are no fire bans in place, not such an issue in the spring, but summer and fall are common times to have fire bans enforced.

    Also, as there are no facilities in the 18 Rd camping area the BLM, local trailbuilders, and other users would greatly appreciate it if you brought a portable tiolet, or in river terms, a groover. This greatly dimishes the impact in the area and may help keep it open to camping.

    Again, I'm glad you had fun on the trails. Riding too much to take pictures is a good thing, maybe not good for those of us who would like to see them, but good for you!

    (BBZ and JD, is this more pallatable?)

  30. #30
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    Way sweet...sometimes all it takes is presentation to provide lasting education...ride on SP

  31. #31
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    I too would like to say thanks for a great weekend of riding in Fruita. It was a good thing to escape the snow and cold of home for some hot desert sunshine (although the snow in the front yard did come in handy for the beer cooler). I camped at 18 road, but I made no fire, and the kids waited paitiently to be dropped off at the trailhead facilities after the coffee kicked in . Anyway, I think it would be a tragedy if 18rd became closed to camping. The similarities between the development of Moab and Fruita are striking and a bit sad to me. When I first rode Moab in '94 we camped, for free, in the sand flats area. As the years went by, free camping became harder and harder to come by, first at the bottom of Porcupine rim, later by Wall street, and most recently way south of town. The difficulty of camping in Moab is one of the reasons I don't really go there anymore. Sure, you can pay $10-15 to camp, but I just can't seem to justify paying to camp, it's not in my nature. Back to Fruita, the same things are already happening- I used to camp in the Kokopelli area, now closed, and 18 rd is probably next. After that, I'll probably go to Rabbit Valley, and that will eventually close too. I wish there was a better way, I wish that a little education would go a long way, but Fruita will soon get loved to death just like Moab.

  32. #32
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    I don't see why everyone is worried about the impact! it should be less than ever.

    -Mountain biking is dead--due to the new road riding craze.
    -A lot of the camping at 18 road is closed off so the impact is lessened.
    -All the real riding is in GJ now anyway.
    -There are more hotels now in fruita-- and they have softer beds.
    -The new brewpub keeps people drinking and off the trails anyhow.


  33. #33
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    locals who care

    Quote Originally Posted by cbmtbr
    Fruita will soon get loved to death just like Moab.
    There's a huge difference between Moab and Fruita and that's because there are a lot more locals in Fruita who care about what's happening in our desert. Moab's population of "locals" is somewhat transient because of the seasonal nature of much of the employment there and the "why should I care" attitude seems very prevalent there.

    Thaks for not having to have a fire on 18 Rd. I can't count how many illegal firerings I have had to dismantle up there over the years. The worst thing I have seen is people having left fires unattended in that area. If some fool burns down the pinyon/juniper forest up there, much of the magic will be lost forever, at least for our generations. All it takes is one selfish idiot to ruin things for everyone.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by billybobzia
    its not the message, its the "presentation" of the message that probably irks people...a simple, hey, do you know that you are supposed to blah, blah, blah..
    You're right, dammit!

    The presentation should always take into account the fact that there are people predisposed to take umbrage at the simplest of requests or comments. Some might even be deliberately obtuse, just to have a bit of an argument.
    Wibble

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    Agreed...

    Quote Originally Posted by scorcher seb
    You're right, dammit!

    The presentation should always take into account the fact that there are people predisposed to take umbrage at the simplest of requests or comments. Some might even be deliberately obtuse, just to have a bit of an argument.

    "I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes."

    For whatever reason this doesn't come off as being insulting or degrading to me? He didn't say "Idiot, you are ruining our desert because you had a fire without a firepan and crapped all over our desert!" Yes the message is blunt and to the point, but it is an honest question that would simply just take a 'yes' response to confirm. It certainly didn't need 5-10 responses from others that felt the need to be insulted or feel accused on the original posters behalf. Bottom line is that the subject matter is a HUGE issue that a good chunk of Fruita visitors have no clue is even a problem or it wouldn't be happening. I don't think the town of Fruita will ever morph into a Moab but the camping areas are quickly shifting that way. One small group of campers can do large scale damage to those areas that won't recover for decades, if ever. I know it has become tradition on here to take offence to anything JD says but most of it is right on track and are based on his obvoius, deep concerns about the areas he loves. I think it would do alot of people here good to simply take a message to heart and consider it rather than blow it off or get upset because it isn't polite and sugar coated enough.

    Either way, keep it up JD, I'm sure you can deal with being E-hated if it helps save those areas so many of us care about. More bumps equals more reads and anyone who comes across this thread will likely think twice about how they camp in Fruita. It might not have quite the effect if you had just told them that the nice people of Fruita would appreciate it if you can try not to burn down too much of the desert and carry out your poo poo if it doesn't lessen your experience and isn't too much trouble.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22
    "I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes."

    For whatever reason this doesn't come off as being insulting or degrading to me? He didn't say "Idiot, you are ruining our desert because you had a fire without a firepan and crapped all over our desert!" Yes the message is blunt and to the point, but it is an honest question that would simply just take a 'yes' response to confirm. It certainly didn't need 5-10 responses from others that felt the need to be insulted or feel accused on the original posters behalf. Bottom line is that the subject matter is a HUGE issue that a good chunk of Fruita visitors have no clue is even a problem or it wouldn't be happening. I don't think the town of Fruita will ever morph into a Moab but the camping areas are quickly shifting that way. One small group of campers can do large scale damage to those areas that won't recover for decades, if ever. I know it has become tradition on here to take offence to anything JD says but most of it is right on track and are based on his obvoius, deep concerns about the areas he loves. I think it would do alot of people here good to simply take a message to heart and consider it rather than blow it off or get upset because it isn't polite and sugar coated enough.

    Either way, keep it up JD, I'm sure you can deal with being E-hated if it helps save those areas so many of us care about. More bumps equals more reads and anyone who comes across this thread will likely think twice about how they camp in Fruita. It might not have quite the effect if you had just told them that the nice people of Fruita would appreciate it if you can try not to burn down too much of the desert and carry out your poo poo if it doesn't lessen your experience and isn't too much trouble.
    What kind of gas milage does your car get?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes.
    Running the risk of adding fuel to the fire (no pun intended....well, maybe a little), what's the reasoning behind the firepan/pack out the ashes deal? It might be helpful to offer the explanation along with the etiquette. I understand not collecting wood, as it provides nutrients as it decomposes.

    BTW, all of our midwestern campsites have firepits and chemical toilets.

    -dave in KC

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    This thread is so entertaining and frustrating at the same time...

    I agree that as visitors to an area, we should try to educate ourselves on the proper trail and camping etiquettes. But, geezus, why do locals always have to pull the "houlier than thou, I am a local" attitude about everything. Yes, it's awesome that you built the trails and everybody is grateful but they are still on public land and that without visitors to your area, there would be no "Fruita" to speak of. If you want to keep your trails secret and local and not have to deal with the unfortunate price of notoriety and "fame", which is trail overcrowding, widening of the "singletrack", occasional newbie or touron mistakes, and some other "evils" that somebody will no less point out, then STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR TRAILS ON MTBR! Otherwise, do your best to educate people, hope they follow your guidelines, and learn to co-exist.

    Okay... rant over....

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyonekc
    Running the risk of adding fuel to the fire (no pun intended....well, maybe a little), what's the reasoning behind the firepan/pack out the ashes deal? It might be helpful to offer the explanation along with the etiquette. I understand not collecting wood, as it provides nutrients as it decomposes.

    BTW, all of our midwestern campsites have firepits and chemical toilets.

    -dave in KC
    Basically, using a fire pan as well as allowing everything to burn fully to white ash and scattering or packing out is done keep everything as undisturbed as possible and to avoid the eyesores of dozens of makeshift firepits in areas without estblished campsites and firepits. I know for many campers a campfire is more of a bonfire and a lot of times the remains just get left behind assuming the next group will just use it and clean up what's left. Sometimes this works out but often it doesn't and half chared logs are left behind. Generally fire remains should be looked at as any other campsite litter and should be taken out when the campers leave.

    I know what you mean about those midwestern sites, I'm orginally from Iowa. To me it seems like to camping there was always more family and comfort focused. It's amazing how much more fragile and susceptable to damage the desert ecosystems are in comparison.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

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    My cat's breath smells like cat food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    What kind of gas milage does your car get?
    25-30
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.
    There's a huge difference between Moab and Fruita and that's because there are a lot more locals in Fruita who care about what's happening in our desert. Moab's population of "locals" is somewhat transient because of the seasonal nature of much of the employment there and the "why should I care" attitude seems very prevalent there.
    I understand what you are saying, and your personal observations may back up this statement, however, I seem to recall the Sand Flats Recreation Area came about in part because of locals' concerns. I have met many Moab locals over the years who are dedicated to the maintenance of their patch of land and educating visitors.

    Do concerned Fruita locals think the current efforts are enough to stop or slow down the impact of visitors? Does the area need a more visible and official means of education and enforcement?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    You're very welcome. I'm glad you were able to hit the good weather and enjoy our trails. Since you had such a great time I hope that you will do your best to preserve the area for future use. I'm sure you are well versed in the "Fruita Yield" of stopping at the side of the trail and leaning the bike to allow others to pass (and staying on the trail if you are the person passing), but did you know that there are special considerations when camping in the desert? First of all, since there are no official fire rings and the desert is so dry, it is recomended that you use a firepan (and bring your own firewood). Be sure that there are no fire bans in place, not such an issue in the spring, but summer and fall are common times to have fire bans enforced.

    Also, as there are no facilities in the 18 Rd camping area the BLM, local trailbuilders, and other users would greatly appreciate it if you brought a portable tiolet, or in river terms, a groover. This greatly dimishes the impact in the area and may help keep it open to camping.

    Again, I'm glad you had fun on the trails. Riding too much to take pictures is a good thing, maybe not good for those of us who would like to see them, but good for you!

    (BBZ and JD, is this more pallatable?)
    yeah we know about the special arrangements for camping in the desert and the rules of the singletrack. i believe the BLM just wants you to use established fire rings in the area (we did bring the firepan and always pack our own firewood)....its nice to see the locals making sure the area is preserved as i watched the sandflats area in moab pretty much destroyed in the early 90's...as for the groover, we just take the quick spin to the parking lot at 18 road or wait til we hit town....we like to support the local economy by eating out a bunch....

    the most amazing thing i forgot to add in my original post was the color of the desert this time of year....i don't know if it was a spectacular year or not, but the desert was in full bloom and mind boggling to me. i have visited for about 12 years and have never seen so many colors, breathtaking...

    one question...we talk about preserving the desert and keeping the singletrack single, but then why do they graze cattle out there? the bovines certainly aren't recognizing crypto and yielding to others cows in a way that keeps the singletrack skinny...i have noticed 2 trails this year that were in pretty bad shape because of the cows...any thoughts??
    BBZ

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  44. #44
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    I don't think we'll ever get the cows off open rangelands, too much of the "American" heritage is tied up in it. Not only that, but the ranchers depend on it for livelihood, do you really want to make them buy their own land?

    In reality the land is much better managed than it was decades ago when serious overgrazing occured. The affects can still be seen in the unnaturally huge ravines (caused by erosion due to loss of vegetation).

    And should we mention that a few trails were built by cows? Where do you think the name Prime Cut came from?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by screampint
    And should we mention that a few trails were built by cows? Where do you think the name Prime Cut came from?

    Is Steve's one of these? Last time I was there it was in REALLY rough shape but I was thinking it was horses being used when it was wet and I saw a few people out there on horses. I didn't recall if it had been like that on my previous trip or not but I didn't think so. Maybe it is the cows. Not sure if cows in the western states are anything like midwestern cows but I know that for the most part they love singletrack. The fields of the midwest have little singletrack paths(ususally only about a foot wide), all over the place hence the term 'cowpath'. For whatever reason they always walk on the paths except to graze, then they'll wander off into the grass or, unfortunately in your case, the crypto.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

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    [QUOTE=billybobzia]yeah we know about the special arrangements for camping in the desert and the rules of the singletrack. i believe the BLM just wants you to use established fire rings in the area (we did bring the firepan and always pack our own firewood)....its nice to see the locals making sure the area is preserved as i watched the sandflats area in moab pretty much destroyed in the early 90's...as for the groover, we just take the quick spin to the parking lot at 18 road or wait til we hit town....we like to support the local economy by eating out a bunch....QUOTE]

    Glad to hear you had a great trip and it's cool you're doing what you can to maintain the area. Hopefully I didn't come off really harsh yesterday but it just got me upset that people blow off an important message because of who the messenger was and exactly how things were worded. If you ride Fruita regularly I know you realize how special that place is and I hate to see people taking minimizing the impacts we have lightly. Most of us know this stuff pretty well but I'm sure plenty don't, especially first time visitors to the Fruita/Moab desert regions. I know the first time we were there I was clueless, I'm just glad we were staying in a hotel at the time.

    If anyone is interested, here's the scoop from leave no trace, they go into pretty good detail on the subject of campfires: http://www.lnt.org/programs/lnt7/campfires.html
    Last edited by catch22; 05-19-2005 at 08:57 AM.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

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    Chautes and ladders was really cowed out last weekend, sections of the koko loops were also a bit trampled. The dirt there really sets up like concrete when it dries out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfmtber
    do your best to educate people
    nuff said and done

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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22
    "I certainly hope you had a firepan and packed out your ashes."

    For whatever reason this doesn't come off as being insulting or degrading to me
    That's because you're obviously not a pc e-thug and get it, unlike all of my "pals". Being e-hated (excellent term, btw) means nothing to me, especially since most of those who do e-hate me would never have the stones to even introduce themselves to me if our paths crossed in (gasp) the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudpawlz
    I understand what you are saying, and your personal observations may back up this statement, however, I seem to recall the Sand Flats Recreation Area came about in part because of locals' concerns. I have met many Moab locals over the years who are dedicated to the maintenance of their patch of land and educating visitors.

    Do concerned Fruita locals think the current efforts are enough to stop or slow down the impact of visitors? Does the area need a more visible and official means of education and enforcement?
    Sure, SFRA is better than it was five years ago, but it was much better off fifteen years ago. I'm not sure which locals in Moab you have met, but they are obviously not the same ones I have seen the last ten years. Are the ones you met still living there, or were they just transient seasonal workers?

    Until camping is taken out of the pinyon/juniper forest in the Bookcliffs, the negative impact in that area will only increase. There can't be any more visible means or enforcement than there already is, other than closing the pinyon/juniper forest area to camping, period.

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