Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 172
  1. #1
    Singlespeed Enduro Poser
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,139

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Save us from the enemy....

    ourselves.



    Save us from the enemy....-enduro-mountainbike-magazine-e-mountainbike-magazine-trek-powerfly-fs-exclusive-look_-210-780x58.jpgSave us from the enemy....-strava.jpg

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoNin9r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,693
    I used to skate. I feel the same way about this as I do about razor scooters and snake boards... vomit.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Chad_M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    470
    Might as well pick up an enduro motorcycle and have more fun.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    573
    Friends don't let friends use Strava.

    Just say NO to Strava.


    and the Trek is a abomination

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoNin9r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,693

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Friends don't let friends use Strava.

    Just say NO to Strava.


    and the Trek is a abomination
    Felt is doing it too, iinm

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Zomby Woof (MCM700)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad_M View Post
    Might as well pick up an enduro motorcycle and have more fun.
    It would probably cost less than an e-bike too.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoNin9r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,693
    I've owned cars less expensive than dove of my bikes

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 802spokestoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    254
    I'm going to be really butt-hurt the first time an "on-the-lefter" pinches me off a single-track climb on one. I might take up golf.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: David R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,534
    Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...

  10. #10
    9 lives
    Reputation: cyclelicious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    11,877
    Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.
    F*ck Cancer

    Eat your veggies

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoNin9r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,693

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.
    Yeah but I don't think "we" are buying them, meaning the more purist mountain bikers.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoNin9r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,693

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by 802spokestoke View Post
    I'm going to be really butt-hurt the first time an "on-the-lefter" pinches me off a single-track climb on one. I might take up golf.
    Here's hoping we'll be fast enough to run them down and give them a nice, "hey, go f**k yourself."

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,453
    People are going to buy them.....just like the avid archer sporting a crossbow.

    How about an E-GYM ? that lifts the weights for you or maybe a E-SPINBIKE, very cool concept

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: RajunCajun44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,778
    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...
    very interesting to see what happens with how the 100's of different jurisdictions respond to this one...

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 802spokestoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    254
    Just when things were getting good...honestly though, mtbr thoughts matter even if only by a minimal amount. I really think the forum should nip this thing in the butt before it gets out of control. Right, TREK? Please, please, for the love of God! Do what's right and leave this on a cyclocross only!!!

  16. #16
    Professional Crastinator
    Reputation: Fleas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    4,612
    Maybe I'm sheltered, but these e-bike things seem like one item that will actually be a passing fad.

    People will try them; people without enough skill or fitness to otherwise ride a trail. Then something will happen and they won't be able to ride them out. What will they do with them then? Call a tow truck?
    Or they will find that everyone is passing them on the downhills because their e-bikes are too heavy to turn or brake using regular bicycle components.
    Or their regular bicycle components will simply fail under the strain.

    Lots of things look like a good idea until you give them the real world test. These are not likely to pass the test of real trails and real riding. Their "operational envelope" is small, and their allowed access is small.
    At a long stretch, I could see reserving their use for race marshalls or officials, or maybe even trail maintainers, but not for common use. Ever.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  17. #17
    'Tis but a scratch
    Reputation: huffster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,770
    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.
    I solemnly swear, I will NOT buy one.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    824
    How much does that thing weigh?

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: shining_trapezoid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    222
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    Maybe I'm sheltered, but these e-bike things seem like one item that will actually be a passing fad.

    People will try them; people without enough skill or fitness to otherwise ride a trail. Then something will happen and they won't be able to ride them out. What will they do with them then? Call a tow truck?
    Or they will find that everyone is passing them on the downhills because their e-bikes are too heavy to turn or brake using regular bicycle components.
    Or their regular bicycle components will simply fail under the strain.

    Lots of things look like a good idea until you give them the real world test. These are not likely to pass the test of real trails and real riding. Their "operational envelope" is small, and their allowed access is small.
    At a long stretch, I could see reserving their use for race marshalls or officials, or maybe even trail maintainers, but not for common use. Ever.

    -F
    You bring up a good point. Mountain biking has always had a potentially dangerous side, but the safety of riding something like that on some of the trails I've been on kinda makes me concerned. Get stranded in the mountains with a dead e-bike, then what? Going faster than your skill can handle, crashing and hurting yourself or somebody else is already a possibility obviously; adding an electric motor and more weight to the equation just seems like it would make it worse. I truly, truly hope these aren't allowed on trails that are already restricted to motorized vehicles, but how is anyone gonna enforce that? I'm guessing they're a lot quieter than a dirt bike or any gas powered vehicle.
    No sir, I don't like it.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Kliemann53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    246
    I wonder how the mtn bike components on it will hold up to the higher speeds on rough trails. Seems like it would put downhill bike forces on trail bike components.

  21. #21
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    27,168
    Hybrid bikes that recapture energy during braking are coming. They will allow people to ride much longer rides and ride up stuff that would stop them. They won't be "getting a free ride" really, just recapturing energy that would otherwise be lost to heat. No matter what you think, it's coming and people will be riding them. A 65 year old will think it's the most awesome thing and feel like they are 20 years younger.

    In regards to the bike above, now people that are too disabled to ride a normal bike have something they can ride. Where do you draw the line? Do those people not deserve to ride trails? Change is inevitable.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    309
    defeats the purpose of riding a bike IMO..... I will stick to pedaling... if I cant pedal I would just drive my beater ford ranger
    97 specialized rockhopper.- winter beater
    2013 GT aggressor 3.0- summer commuter

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,397
    I'm so glad those things aren't allowed on the trails I ride.

  24. #24
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Hybrid bikes that recapture energy during braking are coming. They will allow people to ride much longer rides and ride up stuff that would stop them. They won't be "getting a free ride" really, just recapturing energy that would otherwise be lost to heat. No matter what you think, it's coming and people will be riding them. A 65 year old will think it's the most awesome thing and feel like they are 20 years younger.

    In regards to the bike above, now people that are too disabled to ride a normal bike have something they can ride. Where do you draw the line? Do those people not deserve to ride trails? Change is inevitable.
    Pretty sure any disabled person caught riding one of these things would be in trouble for fraud. Real disabled people would not even attempt to ride anything with two wheels on technical single track. They can't even walk halfway across a parking lot for crying out loud.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  26. #26
    RAKC
    Reputation: tigris99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,127
    Too each their own I guess but I ever see one on the trail I won't show the rider any respect. I show all riders the same respect, as well as other trail users but some a** clown comes out on one of those, im just going to point and laugh. I have works my tail off for over 2 yrs to loose 100lbs so far and learn to ride properly, and love the hell outta it. I know half what we are going to see is obese teenage/college age WOW players riding these damn things. Another thing of making tech to make and keep ppl fat and lazy.
    Sent from my Nokia Stupid Phone using Tapatalk

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dopamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    66
    I think we mountain bikers should really distance ourselves from these ebikes. Make it clear they another new separate user class on the trails that are totally different from pedal powered bikes. I just see the anti-bike forces trying to lump ebikes in with mountain bikes and try to get us banned from more trails, or at least not open more trails to us. It is not a bicycle, it is a motorized vehicle, totally different and seperate from mountain bikes - has to be emphasized.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Where I ride, I think it could totally be fun to get some big air on the logs and stuff but since I ride for fitness, it would be counter productive. I saw a guy with his son on a trail and he had one of those razer mini electric dirt bike type things. The kid looked like he was having fun. I didn't kick it over and slash his tires with my Tanto, i just went around them. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I don't think he was doing any trail damage... I could see those adult electric dirt bikes, but that's just a dirt bike with an electric motor. What's the concern with the ebikes really? Trail damage? I don't see how, they don't have the power or weight to make the ruts that the 2 strokers can do. They aren't any larger, they are fast enough to stay in front of you... I don't see the concern. Can someone explain the hate?

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    179
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    Where I ride, I think it could totally be fun to get some big air on the logs and stuff but since I ride for fitness, it would be counter productive. I saw a guy with his son on a trail and he had one of those razer mini electric dirt bike type things. The kid looked like he was having fun. I didn't kick it over and slash his tires with my Tanto, i just went around them. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I don't think he was doing any trail damage... I could see those adult electric dirt bikes, but that's just a dirt bike with an electric motor. What's the concern with the ebikes really? Trail damage? I don't see how, they don't have the power or weight to make the ruts that the 2 strokers can do. They aren't any larger, they are fast enough to stay in front of you... I don't see the concern. Can someone explain the hate?


    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Good discussion here
    Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike
    There is a thread in general discussion going on.

    There is no hate - mopeds are fun and soon all motorcycles will be electric. But they should be used on motocross trails
    Concern for mountain bikes is loss of access to trails we worked so hard to get. There is no way to check what moped you are riding. People will modify their mopeds immediately to be more powerful. So it has to be black and white. No motorized devices on mountain bike trails
    D

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: RajunCajun44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,778
    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    I'm so glad those things aren't allowed on the trails I ride.
    So what trails are you referring to ? What location and jurisdiction ? very curious to know

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dopamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    Where I ride, I think it could totally be fun to get some big air on the logs and stuff but since I ride for fitness, it would be counter productive. I saw a guy with his son on a trail and he had one of those razer mini electric dirt bike type things. The kid looked like he was having fun. I didn't kick it over and slash his tires with my Tanto, i just went around them. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I don't think he was doing any trail damage... I could see those adult electric dirt bikes, but that's just a dirt bike with an electric motor. What's the concern with the ebikes really? Trail damage? I don't see how, they don't have the power or weight to make the ruts that the 2 strokers can do. They aren't any larger, they are fast enough to stay in front of you... I don't see the concern. Can someone explain the hate?

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    No hate, I just don't want to advocate for motorcycle use on existing trails. I also don't think motorcycle riders should be able to piggyback on years of work mountain bikers have done to open trails for mountain bikes. If they want to advocate to ride their motorcycles on trails and try to get access that's fine by me, but it's got nothing to do with mountain biking.

  32. #32
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Joint problems are so ubiquitous it would be an insult to those with actual disabilities to call it a disability. I've ridden and raced with a guy who had only one leg and he could handle his bike on tech trails just fine without electric assistance.

    'E-bikes' are the WMD other user groups have been waiting for to get us banned everywhere.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    I'm partially disabled in my upper body because a deteriorated shoulder joint. Some days my arm feels like it's on fire from nerve damage, other days it's at 50% strength and that's about as good as it gets. Because of the damage, it has also messed up my upper back and my other shoulder too. Just because I still have my arm, that doesn't mean it's any less debilitating. There are also disorders where this happens to all the joints, mine is from trauma but it can be caused by genetics too. It's an insult to people who are disabled in any way to compare their disabilities to other people who are disabled worse, and tell them they're not disabled at all.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dopamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    Joint problems are so ubiquitous it would be an insult to those with actual disabilities to call it a disability. I've ridden and raced with a guy who had only one leg and he could handle his bike on tech trails just fine without electric assistance.

    'E-bikes' are the WMD other user groups have been waiting for to get us banned everywhere.
    Let's call them what they are - motorcycles. Electric motorcycles more specifically. "ebike" is a marketing buzzword created to disguise what these things really are. They've got electric motors in them - they are motorcycles.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    One of my friends got shot 5 times, 2 in the foot 2 in the leg and one in the collar bone.. He's pieced together with metal and other crap, and he goes to the gym everyday. He's built, solid muscle. You'd look at him and never know the amount of pain he's in just walking. These things happen. After they put him back together they made him a detective and he got ran over. Again they put him back together, but more pain. So just because somebody looks healthy, that has nothing to do with what they've been through. It's so close minded to assume that if you've got the limb it's 100% functional and doesn't bring pain with its existence. This dude does bike ride everyday, but in the street. He can't handle the terrain of techy trails.. Electric assist he probably could though.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  36. #36
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    One of my friends got shot 5 times, 2 in the foot 2 in the leg and one in the collar bone.. He's pieced together with metal and other crap, and he goes to the gym everyday. He's built, solid muscle. You'd look at him and never know the amount of pain he's in just walking. These things happen. After they put him back together they made him a detective and he got ran over. Again they put him back together, but more pain. So just because somebody looks healthy, that has nothing to do with what they've been through. It's so close minded to assume that if you've got the limb it's 100% functional and doesn't bring pain with its existence. This dude does bike ride everyday, but in the street. He can't handle the terrain of techy trails.. Electric assist he probably could though.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    So how is electric assist going to help your friend with the technical aspect of mountain biking? Great, now you have the power to climb a hill. That doesn't mean it will be any easier to absorb the shock of riding over boulders and roots, or give you the skill to put the bike back on line when you get knocked off it.

    Fine, e-bikes on singletrack are ok as long as you are disabled. Guess what? Now everyone who wants one just has to say "I'm totally disabled bro!"
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    I'm guessing you've never been disabled lol.. If your problems are in the pressure you have to put on your joints to move the bike, and you relieve that pressure by having electric assist, then you can use what pressure you can use on bike control.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  38. #38
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I'm guessing you've never been disabled lol.. If your problems are in the pressure you have to put on your joints to move the bike, and you relieve that pressure by having electric assist, then you can use what pressure you can use on bike control.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    I'm not one to toss around my problems in an effort to gain support for my argument. So I'll keep them to myself.

    How does electric assist relieve pressure on the downhills? Wrist, elbows, collarbone take a lot of force on the way down.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    But you'll throw around other people's missing legs

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  40. #40
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    But you'll throw around other people's missing legs

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    I did say my problems.

    Moving on, let's say you've won your argument and e-bikes are allowed on trails granted the rider is disabled. How does enforcement work? Our current system relies almost 100% on policing each other. It's easy to enforce no MTB, no hikers, no equestrians. Having to check a condition makes it almost impossible. What is a ranger going to say to someone on an e-bike whom they suspect is not truly disabled? "Excuse me sir, only those with disabilities may ride e-bikes here. I'm going to have to ask you to prove that you are disabled." Behind close doors, this discussion will be had, and the deciders will have to choose between ban them all or allow them all.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    I did say my problems.

    Moving on, let's say you've won your argument and e-bikes are allowed on trails granted the rider is disabled. How does enforcement work? Our current system relies almost 100% on policing each other. It's easy to enforce no MTB, no hikers, no equestrians. Having to check a condition makes it almost impossible. What is a ranger going to say to someone on an e-bike whom they suspect is not truly disabled? "Excuse me sir, only those with disabilities may ride e-bikes here. I'm going to have to ask you to prove that you are disabled." Behind close doors, this discussion will be had, and the deciders will have to choose between ban them all or allow them all.
    Out here we already have exceptions for motorized bikes on some of the trails and to use them you have to get a special permit from the dec, by sending in a letter from your dr.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dopamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    One of my friends got shot 5 times, 2 in the foot 2 in the leg and one in the collar bone.. He's pieced together with metal and other crap, and he goes to the gym everyday. He's built, solid muscle. You'd look at him and never know the amount of pain he's in just walking. These things happen. After they put him back together they made him a detective and he got ran over. Again they put him back together, but more pain. So just because somebody looks healthy, that has nothing to do with what they've been through. It's so close minded to assume that if you've got the limb it's 100% functional and doesn't bring pain with its existence. This dude does bike ride everyday, but in the street. He can't handle the terrain of techy trails.. Electric assist he probably could though.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    If you're friend believes in personal responsibility he shouldn't be getting in over his head in the backcountry. If a motorcycle can take him in further than he can handle, how does he get out in case of mishap? Put search & rescue at risk to bail him out? Your friend should stick to the legal trails he can physically handle. He should also try hiking and horseback riding. Honestly with the disabilities he has neither motorcycling nor mountain biking on extreme terrain sound like safe recreational choices for him.

  43. #43
    All fat, all the time.
    Reputation: Shark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7,252
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    But you'll throw around other people's missing legs

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

    Well no wonder it's missing if people are throwing them around.....

    Not very nice at all.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
    If you're friend believes in personal responsibility he shouldn't be getting in over his head in the backcountry. If a motorcycle can take him in further than he can handle, how does he get out in case of mishap? Put search & rescue at risk to bail him out? Your friend should stick to the legal trails he can physically handle. He should also try hiking and horseback riding. Honestly with the disabilities he has neither motorcycling nor mountain biking on extreme terrain sound like safe recreational choices for him.
    I live in long Island. There is no back country lol

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  45. #45
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I live in long Island. There is no back country lol

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    I see. A different environment entirely.

    Where I live people get rescued all the time after getting in over their heads. Or their bodies are discovered later. The penalty for failure is very high here.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 802spokestoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    254
    As is such with many things, I feel the negatives possibilities, outweight the positive ones. I think it'd be fine for someone who is disabled (in whatever form) to take an e-bike and go ride some local loops. That would be great for the sport. It also makes sense to me that such an indidvidual may have a hard time on more technical trails due to added weight and their disability--this instance wouldn't bother anyone. The idea of these things zooming up and down single track frustrated me, but that wouldn't be the case in the above scenario, necessarily.
    But really, who's going to be able to afford one anyway? Rich kids. Nothing against rich kids, but they don't have the best track record. I can see the pov footage now of them throttling these things downhill, blowing out berms, being reckless, and having an unwarranted and unbridled speed advantage over pedaling riders, who may not want to loose the hardworking payoff of a pedal bike.
    My example of a previous attempt to aide the disabled (really the wrong word here) or a person who has a hard time pedaling (in this instance) is the crossbow as I've seen mentioned before. At first, it was manufactured to help people who could not muster the energy to operate a bow. We saw pictures of people in wheelchairs, with loved ones getting out and enjoying nature, awesome. The fact is that now crossbow hunting is slowly morphing archery season into a conundrum rifle season of sorts. My point is that the reasoning makes sense, but as we all know, actual outcome is not always trully projected by good intention.

    Other concerns:
    -As mentioned, this hybrid pedal/motor bike is still a motor bike. But it has pedals. Other advocacy groups may latch on to this as a means to an end for mountain bikes.
    -Mountain bike advocacy has been long, slow moving, and hard. It is finally getting somewhere. How will these bikes make progress any smoother? It's a serious wrench in the system.
    -If they are banned, people who have spent thousands are going to ride them anyway-no bueno for the sport.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 53119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    3,287
    i wouldn't worry about it. the costs should keep any real rider away on any trail. it's the same person who'll by a $3500 boutique builder commuter with custom racks outfitted in a 5th avenue kitsbow kit. one and done.

  48. #48
    bikeaholic
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    708
    I see these electric mountain bikes as a flash in the pan. They may sell a few, but there's no way there's going to be enough interest to keep producing them for more than a model year or two. I've still yet to see one on any trail and I ride a lot. I'm thinking that the overwhelming majority of seasoned mountain bikers won't even consider one of these things.

    On the other hand, I do see electric bikes becoming more popular with the urban/street/commuter crowd.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    Electric dh bikes would negate lift service..

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  50. #50
    Old, Slow and now FAT! :)
    Reputation: TheNormsk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,482
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    A 65 year old will think it's the most awesome thing and feel like they are 20 years younger.

    In regards to the bike above, now people that are too disabled to ride a normal bike have something they can ride. Where do you draw the line? Do those people not deserve to ride trails? Change is inevitable.
    This!

    e-Bikes are a great development for people with mobility challenges. You may not like it but think about the therapeutic benefits you get when you get away from civilization and get out in the back country/trails. It calms you down, improves your wellbeing, makes you feel better.

    Just because an e-bike exists does not mean you are forced to ride it. Just like single-speeds or riders that only ride hard-tails; those that look down on riders of the new 5+ inch travel trail bikes with their rock eating ability to smooth the trail. Is that cheating? Should I still be riding the fully rigid 26er I started on in the early '90s through boulder fields and trails that people today only consider riding on an "endure" rig? Technology evolves.

    Electric assist is going to happen and electric regenerative braking will come and there will be more tech integration into the bike than you would care for... computer control adaptive suspension, perhaps self adjusting tire pressures, things I cant even think about now.

    You can become a retro grouch or embrace the change! For me I am currently undecided what I want.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dopamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNormsk View Post
    This!

    e-Bikes are a great development for people with mobility challenges. You may not like it but think about the therapeutic benefits you get when you get away from civilization and get out in the back country/trails. It calms you down, improves your wellbeing, makes you feel better.

    Just because an e-bike exists does not mean you are forced to ride it. Just like single-speeds or riders that only ride hard-tails; those that look down on riders of the new 5+ inch travel trail bikes with their rock eating ability to smooth the trail. Is that cheating? Should I still be riding the fully rigid 26er I started on in the early '90s through boulder fields and trails that people today only consider riding on an "endure" rig? Technology evolves.

    Electric assist is going to happen and electric regenerative braking will come and there will be more tech integration into the bike than you would care for... computer control adaptive suspension, perhaps self adjusting tire pressures, things I cant even think about now.

    You can become a retro grouch or embrace the change! For me I am currently undecided what I want.
    Honestly I think it's delusional to think that motorized vehicles of any sort will ever be allowed in the backcountry. Why you think it's inevitable because suddenly there are "ebikes" makes no sense. You really think the existing horse hiker mtb lobby and the NPS will suddenly allow motorbikes on these trails because "ebikes"? Dream on.

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    179
    This debate is not about disabled people. It is a tiny percent of riders and believe me the companies are not basing their sales numbers on disabled people riding bikes. And just because person is disabled he is not exempt form general rules. We do not let disabled people drive at 120Mph on the highway or ride jetskies in the pool. So if there is no mopeds on mountain bike trails - it means no. Black and white.

    The issue is mountain bike trail access for Mopeds - motorized devices. It has nothing to do with technology. 20 years ago we had 2 stroke engines attached to bikes. Moped is a moped. People will modify them to be more powerful and faster immediately. It will only take one accident at 50mph on the trail to ban access for everyone.

    Enjoy the mopeds on the motocross trails. Electric race cars are not allowed on streets. Only race tracks. Just because they are electric does not exclude them from regulations.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dopamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    66

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    47
    Just think of how great you will feel when you pedal past one that is broken down, or one that is puffing up a hill!

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,397
    Hey MtbAZ44, I live and ride in San Diego, mostly PQ but also
    other San Diego city run areas. All of those trail heads have signs
    with no motor vehicles allowed.

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,670
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I'm partially disabled in my upper body because a deteriorated shoulder joint....
    I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  57. #57
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?
    Hey now, someone might feel offended by your lack of sympathy and excessive use of logic. Might want to dial it back a bit
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,670
    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    ..
    Fine, e-bikes on singletrack are ok as long as you are disabled. Guess what? Now everyone who wants one just has to say "I'm totally disabled bro!"
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  59. #59
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    It's becoming more like Harrison Bergeron's world every day.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  60. #60
    Professional Crastinator
    Reputation: Fleas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    4,612
    I've been giving this some real thought. I'm not advocating for e-bikes, but I am thinking in practical engineering terms of how I would present an e-bike so that it might be more readily accepted (if it was a project on my desk right now).

    IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
    1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
    2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

    I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  61. #61
    Dirt Huffer
    Reputation: AC/BC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,643
    meh.

  62. #62
    Singlespeed Enduro Poser
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,139
    Ding Ding Ding!!

    No offense to anyone who has responded with their reasoning and philosophy on this thread. But Ilyam here has nailed it right on the head of what i am concern about.

    TRAIL ACCESS!!! No trail access no mountain bikes! Electric or Human powered!

    There are hundreds of mountain bikers out there right now trying to fight for trail access in your neighborhood NEAR YOU! There are dozens of us fighting for trail access in Wilderness Area where mountain bikes are not allowed.
    The e-bikes goes very much against that. Against, the very wording "mechanized transport". These 2 words has a punch in a legal sense that can knock us all out! The ramifications of the e-bike on our trails is huge!





    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyam3 View Post
    Good discussion here
    Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike
    There is a thread in general discussion going on.

    There is no hate - mopeds are fun and soon all motorcycles will be electric. But they should be used on motocross trails
    Concern for mountain bikes is loss of access to trails we worked so hard to get. There is no way to check what moped you are riding. People will modify their mopeds immediately to be more powerful. So it has to be black and white. No motorized devices on mountain bike trails
    D

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    77
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
    1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
    2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

    I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

    -F
    And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    9
    In Germany, the 25 km/h version is considered to be a bicycle, while the faster version (which also needs a license plate and proper insurance) is a moped. 250W provide a lot of amplification, so you don't need too much input to climb even steep hills at a reasonable pace.

    My parents recently exchanged their trekking bikes against modern pedelecs. They enjoyed cycling a lot during the last two decades, but now they're approaching their 70th birthdays and health problems kicked in during the last two years. The pedelecs now help them to still ride tours of their usual range. But they don't ride trails, only cycleways. IMHO this is where pedelecs are great and make sense. But in german MTB forums, there's also a great fear that bikes like the Stereo Hybrid will lead to more conflicts on the trails.

  65. #65
    Professional Crastinator
    Reputation: Fleas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    4,612
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyvG View Post
    And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged
    Thank you!

    -F

    edit: After reading the articles, I've changed my mind. Ebikes should only be allowed in areas designated specifically for ebikes. Those designated areas should not be anywhere that mountain bikes are already permitted.
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  66. #66
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,844
    Nothing wrong with Strava but the idiots who abuse it.

    As for electric/motor-bicycles, to each his own I guess, but I would not ride one.
    Check my Site

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    815
    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...
    I live in the US, 49cc and less is not considered to be licensed motorized transport. Also, there are regulations that define the differences between "gas motor" and "electric motor". No gas powered motors, regardless of piston displacement, can enter State and/or Federally funded trail systems that are not marked specifically for gas powered engines. I have already seen several electric motors climbing hills on trails in my area. The only time an electric motor would be an annoyance, is if the rider was not warning people during rear approach and is not pulling over for people coming uphill.
    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,946
    MA rider from USA. Most of the areas I ride in say NO motorized vehicles. The ebikes I have seen, in my lbs are VERY heavy, 40-50 pounds. They are also throttle assist, meaning you still have to pedal. How is that heavy a bike going to handle all the tech trails that we have around here. Let alone try to get the front end up over a rock or log. Plus they seem to be $ 4-7 K. I can't see them becoming very popular here. Plus rules already in place not allowing them on trails. I think there will be a very vocal argument against them.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    998
    Quote Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
    I think we mountain bikers should really distance ourselves from these ebikes. Make it clear they another new separate user class on the trails that are totally different from pedal powered bikes. I just see the anti-bike forces trying to lump ebikes in with mountain bikes and try to get us banned from more trails, or at least not open more trails to us. It is not a bicycle, it is a motorized vehicle, totally different and seperate from mountain bikes - has to be emphasized.
    Exactly. I'm not against ebikes. I'm not against ATVs, dirt-bikes, horses, or any other recreational vehicle.

    But ebikes are not bikes. They are "mopeds" and we should start calling them that. If you saw a moped on your mountain bike trail you'd be a little put out. Only difference here is that ebikes have quieter motors and a lot more marketing.

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    998
    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Most disabilities are bogus. Not to mention you can get disability for just about anything nowadays. Generally nowadays if you are stupid, out of shape, and unemployable you can get disability.

    It's like handicap parking. Most of the people who get it could easily walk (and should walk) an extra fifty feet.

    Some people who are really disabled, ironically, cannot get disability.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    34
    These electric bikes have been around for a few years, and have their place as well. My parents in law (who are in their late 60's/early 70's) both have one as does the wife (!) each with the baby seat on them. These bikes are more town bikes, and we are lucky that we have a lot of cycle tracks here in north Italy: but saying that I have had a few young'uns trying to race me when I am on the road bike, and it makes me laugh then I just drop them!!!

    But another valid point that has been raised is how the various laws and bye-laws regard them!!! Already here on the cycletracks there are people who just dont respect the rules, ie crossing, other track users, and I have seen a few collisions!!! What we have now with these bikes is people able to sustain their speed (max 25kph) uphill as well.

    As for the new breed of mountain bikes with power, I have already been passed going uphill on a piece of doubletrack by such a bike!!!!Not really humiliating as I was on a SS!!!
    N+1 = the correct equation for the number of bikes...............

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    106

    Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Not every experience should be able to had easily though, I'd love to experience a "barrel" surfing, but I can't surf and **** scared of sharks. If it was so easy everyone would do it and wouldn't be so special.....same as experiencing amazing mtb trails. We work and train hard to get to a physical state and skill set so we can ride alot of these trails and if e-bikes are going to be allowed on them then it's like footballers taking steroids......it's unfair on the people that work hard to get where they've got.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    266
    Wait, you guys don't think that thing looks fun!? I'd have a blast on that bike! Don't think they should be allowed where dirt bikes are not, though.....

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    5,327
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoNin9r View Post
    Here's hoping we'll be fast enough to run them down and give them a nice, "hey, go f**k yourself."
    If I heard some motor buzzing behind me, I'm not moving over. If he can pass on his own, he can. I will certainly be telling a ranger what and when.

    How long did it take cities to ban Segways from their sidewalks.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,614
    It should be classified as motorized vehicle, at least if it comes equipped to be legally ridden on roads, via the inclusion of reflectors. Per the definition below, I'd call them motoroized vehicles...

    Allowed on trails that allow motorcycles, not allowed on trails that don't...

    Now if reflectors are excluded from the product sold to customers, I don't know what to think. Other than e-mountain bikes still suck.

    49 U.S. Code § 30102 - Definitions:
    (6) “motor vehicle” means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    5
    New member here so thanks in advance for having me.
    What seems to get lost in these debates is exactly what we all (truly) want for our kids/theirs, how to go about creating that legacy and what kind of leadership will get us there..if legacies are even valued anymore in the first place.
    #1 and probably most important...kids and most socially agreeable human beings could care less what their friend (potentially or otherwise) brings to the trailhead for the purposes of having a good time in a group atmosphere. It could be a piece of junk, it could be more advanced..these fun loving individuals don't 'time' who gets to the first rest stop the fastest as long as they all get there together (safely).
    #2 (and just as important)...the trail that they all ride on must be sustainably maintained no matter the cost to the individual or their relative impact to the trail. If it has been determined that in 2014 a professional MTBer actually (normally) 'rode' a reasonably powered ebike on that particular trail and caused 'x' more impact than he did riding in the same manner without one...here's your added fee for using an ebike.
    We will never achieve unity in any off road community without the following:
    1) "paying to play" (everybody, due to our indebtedness forever at every level of funding and future tax burdens)..
    and
    2) making certain that 'money' is taken off of the table (forever) very early in the courtship of two competing ideals.

    This is all about money, folks as many of you already know. The bicycling industry is a fragile one just like the off road industry. Always has been; always will be. Traditionally (see motorcycles, atvs and now side-by-sides) the strategy has always been to 'divide and conquer' any organized individuals to retain not only market share but to SURVIVE.
    When enthusiasts begin to simply work together and figure out strategies to share the same space, guess what?..we need less (cough) 'leadership' not more. Our now collective money goes not to 'conventions' and wrote off lunches with bureaucrats seeking to keep us divided and as many OFF public lands as possible...but to the very legal professionals who can walk and chew gum in the first place (i.e. fight/solve MULTI-USE access issues with both hands tied behind their backs and few 'middlemen' required).
    'Division' in this country is a huge money and 'career' maker. A lot of these "let me make this crystal clear...MTBing is human powered ONLY!" bicycle companies and non-profit leaders are right now shaking in their boots for one simple reason:
    Most of you have never ridden one.
    Sure, they have enough die hards around them right now to keep convincing all of you that "by gosh...and you never should!"..YET YOUR KIDS AND SOMEDAY THEIRS WILL CARE LESS WHAT DAD AND MOM 'WOULDN'T DO' OR WHO THEY 'WOULDN'T TALK TO' AT THE TRAILHEAD!
    It's not that many of these people 'hate' ebikes..it's that ebikes represent 'the future' and 'the past' has been pretty darn good to them in terms of either sales, non-profit leadership salaries/unheard of side benefits/lucrative relationships/travel/swag/notoriety...and understandably...they're not all that really keen on giving any of this 'up' simply for the sake of the 'good of the sport' they all frankly based their reputations around.

    Bottom line...the people presently leading the charge against electric powered two wheel transportation 'anywhere' care absolutely nothing about your namesake's ability to ride tomorrow or for any of us to band together so that dream (legacy) is a reality that we can be proud of (hopefully) long before we leave this earth.

    It's a slap in the face I know..but one doesn't have to look too far in American society to find many others working closely with government agencies and corporate America to achieve the same end (divide/conquer and reap the rewards).

    Wake up, folks. it's your kids were talking about.
    Last edited by OurLegacy; 09-06-2014 at 07:19 AM.

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    22
    Well I don't know about all that ^^ . But I will say this: the ebikes are clearly being designed for the mtb trails we all ride, I mean they are using the same components.. And the idea that new Ebike only trails would start popping up all over the place to accommodate is wishful at best. Having said that, the lazy people that decide to ride them WILL be on your trail eventually. So while we may not agree with it whatsoever, it would be foolish of us to ignore the issue. By being proactive about the problems that can and will arise, I think we can prevent these problems before they start. Just saying we don't agree and hoping it goes away will fail 100% of the time.. Example: instead of posting a NO EBIKE sign at the trailhead, Why not just regulate the days or times they can ride them. Is it completely fair to them, no. But they should have thought about that when they decided to ride those chEat Bikes..

  78. #78
    Dirt Bound
    Reputation: Joe_Re's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    178
    Most disturbing this is.... I have no problem with them existing. They are a motorized vehicle, a cycle with a motor, a motorcycle, all of them. They should not be anywhere that does not allow motorized vehicles, which as far as I'm aware are not all, but the vast majority of trails in MA. Even the rail trails say "no motorized vehicles".

    Also, I'm about to have a kid and he will power his wheeled toys. His hover board though, that's different.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    5
    I picked up my eMTB for 2K.
    Your kids will pick these up 'used' for much less and gladly go ride with their more 'liberal' friends as opposed to their 'old fashioned' Dad or Mom who are militantly against such a thing...no discussion allowed (see above).
    Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get them into MTBing if they look at you now as nothing but another crotchety old man who stubbornly demands that the trails you both 'used to ride' (together) suddenly become the place that you go get await from him or her.
    I'd hate to lose time with my child over 'a bike' or a 'principal' that some leader in the MTBing community demands that you adhere to as the price of admission to 'the club'.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    5
    ...correction...you can bring your kid along to the ride...just make certain that he never utters the word 'electric' in front of the powers that be or anyone else in attendance...or you're BOTH 'gone'...

  81. #81
    Dirt Bound
    Reputation: Joe_Re's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    178
    Troll. If you knew what you were talking about I'd be upset. Also, finger wagging should be reserved for the dance floor.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    5
    I'm just the guy hoping to sell your child a used electric mountain bike (soon) if you have no interesting in riding one yourself or with him/her on your local trail.
    His or her friends will have them and all three of us will be lobbying hard soon (with myself) to access the public lands which we both possess the right to ride.

    If you feel so strongly about the matter that you would rather him or her ride with me instead of you (and enjoy sitting across from the both of us in court)...I can't argue with how your family dynamics work themselves out and don't desire to.

    Just ride one guys and gals. You might not only like it but notice that you actually are tearing up the trails less and seeing more for whatever energy you can muster over a full day's worth of riding.

    Just don't let some of the others up here see you actually giving one a try.

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    5
    ..by the way guys (and gals)...how many young people would you guess that we've made (good) friends with over the years who were saddled with die hard single track motorcyclist fathers that couldn't get over the fact that their children preferred riding atvs?

    We're riding with/learning from/teaching these kids of all ages and having the times of our lives...while their father and his 'buddy' are chasing each other down their 'exclusive' single track after they couldn't understand what had just happened (and obviously didn't care).

    Sad but true.

  84. #84
    MTB B'dos
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    22,184
    The problem with the world today is that everyone thinks that they should be able to do everything or anything anyone else can, physical limitations or restrictions be damned. Wake up people, we are not all equal, some are better at some things than others, we all can't run a 100m in <11 seconds, we all can't drive an F1 car like Hamilton, We can't all design rocket ships.... You do what you can within your limits, don't fvck everyone elses fun or thing up because you want to do it despite not having the natural ability or physical ability to do so.

    E-Bikes should stay where they were designed for, as pedal assist for commuters to help reduce traffic congestion and emissions. The small percentage of people who would use an e-MTB in a respectful fashion would be very limited, these are clearly marketed at the ever growing, lazy, overweight N.American populous.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  85. #85
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    E-mountain bikes are alrady being promoted by mtb magazines.

    MBA published a feature story about Nathan Rennie, the motocross superstar, and how he competes in DH mtb races. He has a 4500W Dh mtb that he uses for practice runs in Southridge, and boasts of being able to practice the DH course 5 times for every one time the other racers who use the shuttle truck do.

    The magazines editor, "Jimmy Mac' , is resigning from his position, and there is some talk about this being related to Hi-Torque publications decision to not only tout e-mtb's, but to publish an entire new, separate magazine for them.

    Dirt Rag magazine also published an article on them recently, and to me they tried to depict the issue as open for debate regarding the potential benefits of e-mtb's. WTF, Dirt Rag?

    So, when you have major publications in effect shilling for the e-mtb market, it IS gonna be a fight.

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,946
    Quote Originally Posted by OurLegacy View Post
    ..by the way guys (and gals)...how many young people would you guess that we've made (good) friends with over the years who were saddled with die hard single track motorcyclist fathers that couldn't get over the fact that their children preferred riding atvs?

    We're riding with/learning from/teaching these kids of all ages and having the times of our lives...while their father and his 'buddy' are chasing each other down their 'exclusive' single track after they couldn't understand what had just happened (and obviously didn't care).

    Sad but true.
    Where do you pedal? Here in MA, there may be 2 legal places where you can ride motorized vehicles on public land, this is not the western part of the country. No motorized vehicles allowed where I ride, period. 5 posts ?, I dare you to name your employer or business related to your electric motorcycle business. All the illegal atv's and motorcycles just rip up all the trails and double track. You will not find any friends here.

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,398
    if it gets people outside and doing something, cool. I am not so stuck up that it has to be my way or no way.

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: carverboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    550
    OurLegacy.
    A bike with a motor is not a MTB plain and simple. Have fun riding them at one of the OHV trails,but don't ever think you will legally ride a MTB trail!
    I'm pretty complacent when it comes to most social/political issues.
    Having said that I will fight tooth and nail to keep you off MTB trails. I have a strong suspicion many others will step forward to do the same.
    UGG boots will germinate Paris Hilton like intellect in your soles!

  89. #89
    I like turtles
    Reputation: TiGeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    6,027
    STRAVA! At least I yell it out before I bunny-hop hikers and shove slower riders off the trail.
    Geologist by trade...bicycle mechanic (former) by the grace of God!

    2012 Specialized Stumpy EVO 29 HT

  90. #90
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816
    Quote Originally Posted by OurLegacy View Post
    I picked up my eMTB for 2K.
    Your kids will pick these up 'used' for much less and gladly go ride with their more 'liberal' friends as opposed to their 'old fashioned' Dad or Mom who are militantly against such a thing...no discussion allowed (see above).
    Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get them into MTBing if they look at you now as nothing but another crotchety old man who stubbornly demands that the trails you both 'used to ride' (together) suddenly become the place that you go get await from him or her.
    I'd hate to lose time with my child over 'a bike' or a 'principal' that some leader in the MTBing community demands that you adhere to as the price of admission to 'the club'.
    If you live in rural Wyoming or Montana or someplace with a low population density, I don't see any reason why you should'nt be able to ride your electric dirt bike on trails that aran't specifically marked as non-motorized access only.

    But here in SoCal, anybody riding an E-bike on a public multi-use trail will be cited if they are caught.

    That's just the way the ball rolls, you don't have to like it, but you do have to respect the laws.

    So, for your sake, and for mine as well, I hope you do live in Wyoming, because in SoCal the number of trails being closed to just bicycles is outnumbering the ones being opened up to regular bicycles, and injecting e-bikes into the mix will for sure provide the bike-haters the added ammo they can use to close even more trails.

    you will not find any friends in the mtb community, unless they are paid shills for e-bikes. We know how tenuous our access to the trails we can legally ride already is, and some of us are a bit too old to play cops and robbers with CDFW officers.

    They ain't just checking fishing and hunting licenses anymore.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    77
    I just got back into riding mountainbikes a half year ago after a 4 year hiatus, before that I mostly did downhill (abroad) and some cross country nearby.
    But now I can only ride nearby and only have the time to go once (maybe twice) a week. But most of the times it is just to exhausting or I am going slower then I would like and it hasnt improved much since I started again. Also when it starts to get colder again outside my asthma doesnt help either.
    For me mountainbiking is about having fun and I have fun when I go fast on certain (technical) sections of trail but most of the time it is just suffering to get to the next fun part.
    So now I am thinking about buying a e-mtb, the type that only gives you assistance up to 15mph and is considered to be a bicycle in the Netherlands. I just hope to have more fun when I do go riding because I can cover the dull parts without suffering and can get up to speed easier before a fun technical sector.
    Why would it be considered cheating because I am not doing any competitions or anything. Also I dont rip up the trails more then another mountainbiker that rides multiple times a week and I still wont be the fastest on the track.

    quote from dirtmag
    So, to ‘the point’ of mountain biking… well, it’s fun isn’t it? I’m not against the clock; I’m alone in the woods with a bike. I’ve been told a few times that the bike is cheating. Who exactly am I cheating? How do you cheat at fun? The speed, grip and stability of this bike make me laugh out loud, alone, in the woods. That’s not cheating, that’s how mountain biking should be.
    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged

  92. #92
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    I just got back into walking about a year ago. I haven't gotten any better at it but I would like to get to the fun parts as soon as possible so I got a car to help with that. Just one of those ones that only assists when you push the gas pedal and tops out at 85mph. It's not cheating because I'm not walking competitively. It's what walking should be!
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,763
    You have to realize that riding a pedal assisted bicycle and riding a bicycle are severely different than walking and driving in so many ways...

    Anyways, i can see this picking up in fat bikes.. Imagine a front wheel assisted fat bike in the snow.. 2wd! I've seen a 2wd bicycle with a cable going to the front hub, but that didn't work too well..

    Anyways, *****ing about it on a forum isn't going to do anything. It's up to the lbs' who will push them out the door.. If they're legitimate mountain bikers they won't carry them. If they're just in it for a quick buck, thats another story.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

  94. #94
    Perpetual n00b
    Reputation: dgw2jr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,762

    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    My point is e-biking is motorized. Just like driving a car that does 85mph or a moped that only does 25mph. Walking and mountain biking are human powered activities. If you don't enjoy the human power part of it then accept it and call it what it is. A dirt bike. A moto. And keep it where motos are allowed and away from where they are not.

    The shops will sell what they are told to sell because it's in the contract. If they can get the price down to typical price of a QBP fat bike, they will sell like crazy. I don't know why but I just have that feeling. The equestrians and HOHA will have a field day and our final nail will be driven in to the coffin. The industry will have made a few bucks to satisfy the shareholders momentarily and the MTB haters will have the trails back to themselves and we will be left to reminisce about the good old days when we were allowed to ride our bikes in the woods.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    77
    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    My point is e-biking is motorized. Just like driving a car that does 85mph or a moped that only does 25mph. Walking and mountain biking are human powered activities. If you don't enjoy the human power part of it then accept it and call it what it is. A dirt bike. A moto. And keep it where motos are allowed and away from where they are not.
    But you still need the human power with the ebike, else the motor wont do anything. So I wouldnt call it a dirt bike. Also the power levels of dirtbikes are in another league. 25kW is easily obtained with a 125cc or bigger motorcycle which is already a 100x more then the 0.25kW that a ebike can deliver.
    What will a ebike do that a regular mtb cant? The only thing is that you can ride longer and a bit faster on slow sections. You cant suddenly go 80mph and rip the track to pieces. Also noise and enviromental issues are not a problem with ebikes.

  96. #96
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    4,816

  97. #97
    mtbr member
    Reputation: J.B. Weld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    8,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post

    Good article. I think it's awesome that the editor of Bicycling Magazine stepped down because they were insistent on promoting e-bikes, hats off to Jimmy Mcllvain for sticking to his principals!


    The A.S.S. is right on target IMO, I've been saying this in one form or another since first hearing about these electric motorcycles with pedals attached to them-

    But to me, trying to blur the lines of categorization, cry out “discrimination” or ask “what will old and disabled people do?” is just a way for e-bike entrepreneurs to get their foot jammed in the door of non-motorized mountain bike trail access so they can rake in maximum profitability.

  98. #98
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    179
    Nice discussion and great article by Single speeder.
    I have an impression that all the supporters of e-bikes are paid by the industry and come here to instigate the discussion. Most of hem make no sense... Like the dude above ( OurLegacy ) saying the kids will ride motorbikes instead of regular bikes... yea right... My kids are begging me to ride mountain bikes with them.. if anything the future is in using your body more and have kids more active and fit vs pushing buttons on mopeds. That's why we do not see runners on segways but more and more people running marafones (even with disabilities)

    Believe me, I like motocross and go cart riding. My kids love it too.. But they are smart enough to separate those activities and figure out what equipment belongs on what track. And at the end of the day they still want to run outside and play soccer, catch or ride a regular bike and come home tired with pink cheeks. No e-bike can replace that.

  99. #99
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    27,168
    Old people will ride E-bikes and they don't give an F, like honeybadgers.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    179
    With all the hype by paid supporters I had to see what it's all about,. so I went and checked out some of those pedal assist bikes at the store and rode in the lot and dirt lot around the store. I was really surprised how lame those things are.

    - First - they are heavy - really heavy. 50-75 LB
    - That makes them clumsy and hard to handle - I will never ride one on a technical trail ( it is that bad) and i tried to like it
    - That makes the battery not last - 20 miles of lame riding without pushing, if pushing hard it will be really low (full throttle, major uphill, tech terrain going all out)
    - That makes pedaling it with dead battery - impossible
    - Second - Expensive - 4-5 K for a mid range one
    - Battery is very expensive and needs to be locked to prevent stealing
    - Tough to secure if using for commuting
    - my $200 hard tail is better for commuting and I can lock it anywhere
    - They are governed to 20MPH - that kills the fun even on the road (where this thing can actually move) - I can go faster on road bike
    - Third - controversy on access - banned everywhere - even some bike paths and cities, so I have to be very limited in use
    - therefore all the salespeople I talked to are not happy to sell them
    - demand is really low according to them and the only people they see buying it in Us are people who do not have a car - but even they are looking at scooters instead.

    So now I want to ride some of the super powerful - throttle equipped electric bikes going 60 mph+ - maybe they are more fun..( if fun is the name of the game) but then again if I can only ride it on the motocross trails why not get a motocross bike.. I suspect it is still more fun...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-09-2014, 07:48 PM
  2. Movie - TIME IS THE ENEMY - BOOTLEG CANYON
    By WingNutt in forum Nevada
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-23-2013, 12:35 PM
  3. drivetrain save money or save weight?
    By SamL3227 in forum All Mountain
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-28-2012, 07:35 PM
  4. Unicyclists - The Enemy Within
    By sagealmighty in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-15-2011, 07:13 AM
  5. Work for the enemy!
    By imtnbke in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-08-2011, 06:25 PM

Members who have read this thread: 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •