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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNormsk View Post
    This!

    e-Bikes are a great development for people with mobility challenges. You may not like it but think about the therapeutic benefits you get when you get away from civilization and get out in the back country/trails. It calms you down, improves your wellbeing, makes you feel better.

    Just because an e-bike exists does not mean you are forced to ride it. Just like single-speeds or riders that only ride hard-tails; those that look down on riders of the new 5+ inch travel trail bikes with their rock eating ability to smooth the trail. Is that cheating? Should I still be riding the fully rigid 26er I started on in the early '90s through boulder fields and trails that people today only consider riding on an "endure" rig? Technology evolves.

    Electric assist is going to happen and electric regenerative braking will come and there will be more tech integration into the bike than you would care for... computer control adaptive suspension, perhaps self adjusting tire pressures, things I cant even think about now.

    You can become a retro grouch or embrace the change! For me I am currently undecided what I want.
    Honestly I think it's delusional to think that motorized vehicles of any sort will ever be allowed in the backcountry. Why you think it's inevitable because suddenly there are "ebikes" makes no sense. You really think the existing horse hiker mtb lobby and the NPS will suddenly allow motorbikes on these trails because "ebikes"? Dream on.

  2. #52
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    This debate is not about disabled people. It is a tiny percent of riders and believe me the companies are not basing their sales numbers on disabled people riding bikes. And just because person is disabled he is not exempt form general rules. We do not let disabled people drive at 120Mph on the highway or ride jetskies in the pool. So if there is no mopeds on mountain bike trails - it means no. Black and white.

    The issue is mountain bike trail access for Mopeds - motorized devices. It has nothing to do with technology. 20 years ago we had 2 stroke engines attached to bikes. Moped is a moped. People will modify them to be more powerful and faster immediately. It will only take one accident at 50mph on the trail to ban access for everyone.

    Enjoy the mopeds on the motocross trails. Electric race cars are not allowed on streets. Only race tracks. Just because they are electric does not exclude them from regulations.

  3. #53
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  4. #54
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    Just think of how great you will feel when you pedal past one that is broken down, or one that is puffing up a hill!

  5. #55
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    Hey MtbAZ44, I live and ride in San Diego, mostly PQ but also
    other San Diego city run areas. All of those trail heads have signs
    with no motor vehicles allowed.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I'm partially disabled in my upper body because a deteriorated shoulder joint....
    I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  7. #57
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    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?
    Hey now, someone might feel offended by your lack of sympathy and excessive use of logic. Might want to dial it back a bit
    When the chicks at school see how gay we are, they're gonna be all over us.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    ..
    Fine, e-bikes on singletrack are ok as long as you are disabled. Guess what? Now everyone who wants one just has to say "I'm totally disabled bro!"
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    It's becoming more like Harrison Bergeron's world every day.
    When the chicks at school see how gay we are, they're gonna be all over us.

  10. #60
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    I've been giving this some real thought. I'm not advocating for e-bikes, but I am thinking in practical engineering terms of how I would present an e-bike so that it might be more readily accepted (if it was a project on my desk right now).

    IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
    1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
    2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

    I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  11. #61
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    meh.

  12. #62
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    Ding Ding Ding!!

    No offense to anyone who has responded with their reasoning and philosophy on this thread. But Ilyam here has nailed it right on the head of what i am concern about.

    TRAIL ACCESS!!! No trail access no mountain bikes! Electric or Human powered!

    There are hundreds of mountain bikers out there right now trying to fight for trail access in your neighborhood NEAR YOU! There are dozens of us fighting for trail access in Wilderness Area where mountain bikes are not allowed.
    The e-bikes goes very much against that. Against, the very wording "mechanized transport". These 2 words has a punch in a legal sense that can knock us all out! The ramifications of the e-bike on our trails is huge!





    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyam3 View Post
    Good discussion here
    Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike
    There is a thread in general discussion going on.

    There is no hate - mopeds are fun and soon all motorcycles will be electric. But they should be used on motocross trails
    Concern for mountain bikes is loss of access to trails we worked so hard to get. There is no way to check what moped you are riding. People will modify their mopeds immediately to be more powerful. So it has to be black and white. No motorized devices on mountain bike trails
    D

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
    1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
    2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

    I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

    -F
    And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged

  14. #64
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    In Germany, the 25 km/h version is considered to be a bicycle, while the faster version (which also needs a license plate and proper insurance) is a moped. 250W provide a lot of amplification, so you don't need too much input to climb even steep hills at a reasonable pace.

    My parents recently exchanged their trekking bikes against modern pedelecs. They enjoyed cycling a lot during the last two decades, but now they're approaching their 70th birthdays and health problems kicked in during the last two years. The pedelecs now help them to still ride tours of their usual range. But they don't ride trails, only cycleways. IMHO this is where pedelecs are great and make sense. But in german MTB forums, there's also a great fear that bikes like the Stereo Hybrid will lead to more conflicts on the trails.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyvG View Post
    And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged
    Thank you!

    -F

    edit: After reading the articles, I've changed my mind. Ebikes should only be allowed in areas designated specifically for ebikes. Those designated areas should not be anywhere that mountain bikes are already permitted.
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  16. #66
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    Nothing wrong with Strava but the idiots who abuse it.

    As for electric/motor-bicycles, to each his own I guess, but I would not ride one.
    Check my Site

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...
    I live in the US, 49cc and less is not considered to be licensed motorized transport. Also, there are regulations that define the differences between "gas motor" and "electric motor". No gas powered motors, regardless of piston displacement, can enter State and/or Federally funded trail systems that are not marked specifically for gas powered engines. I have already seen several electric motors climbing hills on trails in my area. The only time an electric motor would be an annoyance, is if the rider was not warning people during rear approach and is not pulling over for people coming uphill.
    Frozen Trails... err

  18. #68
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    MA rider from USA. Most of the areas I ride in say NO motorized vehicles. The ebikes I have seen, in my lbs are VERY heavy, 40-50 pounds. They are also throttle assist, meaning you still have to pedal. How is that heavy a bike going to handle all the tech trails that we have around here. Let alone try to get the front end up over a rock or log. Plus they seem to be $ 4-7 K. I can't see them becoming very popular here. Plus rules already in place not allowing them on trails. I think there will be a very vocal argument against them.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
    I think we mountain bikers should really distance ourselves from these ebikes. Make it clear they another new separate user class on the trails that are totally different from pedal powered bikes. I just see the anti-bike forces trying to lump ebikes in with mountain bikes and try to get us banned from more trails, or at least not open more trails to us. It is not a bicycle, it is a motorized vehicle, totally different and seperate from mountain bikes - has to be emphasized.
    Exactly. I'm not against ebikes. I'm not against ATVs, dirt-bikes, horses, or any other recreational vehicle.

    But ebikes are not bikes. They are "mopeds" and we should start calling them that. If you saw a moped on your mountain bike trail you'd be a little put out. Only difference here is that ebikes have quieter motors and a lot more marketing.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Most disabilities are bogus. Not to mention you can get disability for just about anything nowadays. Generally nowadays if you are stupid, out of shape, and unemployable you can get disability.

    It's like handicap parking. Most of the people who get it could easily walk (and should walk) an extra fifty feet.

    Some people who are really disabled, ironically, cannot get disability.

  21. #71
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    These electric bikes have been around for a few years, and have their place as well. My parents in law (who are in their late 60's/early 70's) both have one as does the wife (!) each with the baby seat on them. These bikes are more town bikes, and we are lucky that we have a lot of cycle tracks here in north Italy: but saying that I have had a few young'uns trying to race me when I am on the road bike, and it makes me laugh then I just drop them!!!

    But another valid point that has been raised is how the various laws and bye-laws regard them!!! Already here on the cycletracks there are people who just dont respect the rules, ie crossing, other track users, and I have seen a few collisions!!! What we have now with these bikes is people able to sustain their speed (max 25kph) uphill as well.

    As for the new breed of mountain bikes with power, I have already been passed going uphill on a piece of doubletrack by such a bike!!!!Not really humiliating as I was on a SS!!!
    N+1 = the correct equation for the number of bikes...............

  22. #72
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    Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Not every experience should be able to had easily though, I'd love to experience a "barrel" surfing, but I can't surf and **** scared of sharks. If it was so easy everyone would do it and wouldn't be so special.....same as experiencing amazing mtb trails. We work and train hard to get to a physical state and skill set so we can ride alot of these trails and if e-bikes are going to be allowed on them then it's like footballers taking steroids......it's unfair on the people that work hard to get where they've got.


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  23. #73
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    Wait, you guys don't think that thing looks fun!? I'd have a blast on that bike! Don't think they should be allowed where dirt bikes are not, though.....

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoNin9r View Post
    Here's hoping we'll be fast enough to run them down and give them a nice, "hey, go f**k yourself."
    If I heard some motor buzzing behind me, I'm not moving over. If he can pass on his own, he can. I will certainly be telling a ranger what and when.

    How long did it take cities to ban Segways from their sidewalks.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  25. #75
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    It should be classified as motorized vehicle, at least if it comes equipped to be legally ridden on roads, via the inclusion of reflectors. Per the definition below, I'd call them motoroized vehicles...

    Allowed on trails that allow motorcycles, not allowed on trails that don't...

    Now if reflectors are excluded from the product sold to customers, I don't know what to think. Other than e-mountain bikes still suck.

    49 U.S. Code § 30102 - Definitions:
    (6) “motor vehicle” means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.
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