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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNormsk View Post
    This!

    e-Bikes are a great development for people with mobility challenges. You may not like it but think about the therapeutic benefits you get when you get away from civilization and get out in the back country/trails. It calms you down, improves your wellbeing, makes you feel better.

    Just because an e-bike exists does not mean you are forced to ride it. Just like single-speeds or riders that only ride hard-tails; those that look down on riders of the new 5+ inch travel trail bikes with their rock eating ability to smooth the trail. Is that cheating? Should I still be riding the fully rigid 26er I started on in the early '90s through boulder fields and trails that people today only consider riding on an "endure" rig? Technology evolves.

    Electric assist is going to happen and electric regenerative braking will come and there will be more tech integration into the bike than you would care for... computer control adaptive suspension, perhaps self adjusting tire pressures, things I cant even think about now.

    You can become a retro grouch or embrace the change! For me I am currently undecided what I want.
    Honestly I think it's delusional to think that motorized vehicles of any sort will ever be allowed in the backcountry. Why you think it's inevitable because suddenly there are "ebikes" makes no sense. You really think the existing horse hiker mtb lobby and the NPS will suddenly allow motorbikes on these trails because "ebikes"? Dream on.

  2. #52
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    This debate is not about disabled people. It is a tiny percent of riders and believe me the companies are not basing their sales numbers on disabled people riding bikes. And just because person is disabled he is not exempt form general rules. We do not let disabled people drive at 120Mph on the highway or ride jetskies in the pool. So if there is no mopeds on mountain bike trails - it means no. Black and white.

    The issue is mountain bike trail access for Mopeds - motorized devices. It has nothing to do with technology. 20 years ago we had 2 stroke engines attached to bikes. Moped is a moped. People will modify them to be more powerful and faster immediately. It will only take one accident at 50mph on the trail to ban access for everyone.

    Enjoy the mopeds on the motocross trails. Electric race cars are not allowed on streets. Only race tracks. Just because they are electric does not exclude them from regulations.

  3. #53
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  4. #54
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    Just think of how great you will feel when you pedal past one that is broken down, or one that is puffing up a hill!

  5. #55
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    Hey MtbAZ44, I live and ride in San Diego, mostly PQ but also
    other San Diego city run areas. All of those trail heads have signs
    with no motor vehicles allowed.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I'm partially disabled in my upper body because a deteriorated shoulder joint....
    I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?
    Joe
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  7. #57
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    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?
    Hey now, someone might feel offended by your lack of sympathy and excessive use of logic. Might want to dial it back a bit
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    ..
    Fine, e-bikes on singletrack are ok as long as you are disabled. Guess what? Now everyone who wants one just has to say "I'm totally disabled bro!"
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", Fetish Fixation SS 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
    It's becoming more like Harrison Bergeron's world every day.
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  10. #60
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    I've been giving this some real thought. I'm not advocating for e-bikes, but I am thinking in practical engineering terms of how I would present an e-bike so that it might be more readily accepted (if it was a project on my desk right now).

    IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
    1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
    2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

    I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  11. #61
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    meh.

  12. #62
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    Ding Ding Ding!!

    No offense to anyone who has responded with their reasoning and philosophy on this thread. But Ilyam here has nailed it right on the head of what i am concern about.

    TRAIL ACCESS!!! No trail access no mountain bikes! Electric or Human powered!

    There are hundreds of mountain bikers out there right now trying to fight for trail access in your neighborhood NEAR YOU! There are dozens of us fighting for trail access in Wilderness Area where mountain bikes are not allowed.
    The e-bikes goes very much against that. Against, the very wording "mechanized transport". These 2 words has a punch in a legal sense that can knock us all out! The ramifications of the e-bike on our trails is huge!





    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyam3 View Post
    Good discussion here
    Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike
    There is a thread in general discussion going on.

    There is no hate - mopeds are fun and soon all motorcycles will be electric. But they should be used on motocross trails
    Concern for mountain bikes is loss of access to trails we worked so hard to get. There is no way to check what moped you are riding. People will modify their mopeds immediately to be more powerful. So it has to be black and white. No motorized devices on mountain bike trails
    D

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
    1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
    2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

    I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

    -F
    And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged

  14. #64
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    In Germany, the 25 km/h version is considered to be a bicycle, while the faster version (which also needs a license plate and proper insurance) is a moped. 250W provide a lot of amplification, so you don't need too much input to climb even steep hills at a reasonable pace.

    My parents recently exchanged their trekking bikes against modern pedelecs. They enjoyed cycling a lot during the last two decades, but now they're approaching their 70th birthdays and health problems kicked in during the last two years. The pedelecs now help them to still ride tours of their usual range. But they don't ride trails, only cycleways. IMHO this is where pedelecs are great and make sense. But in german MTB forums, there's also a great fear that bikes like the Stereo Hybrid will lead to more conflicts on the trails.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyvG View Post
    And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

    Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged
    Thank you!

    -F

    edit: After reading the articles, I've changed my mind. Ebikes should only be allowed in areas designated specifically for ebikes. Those designated areas should not be anywhere that mountain bikes are already permitted.
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  16. #66
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    Nothing wrong with Strava but the idiots who abuse it.

    As for electric/motor-bicycles, to each his own I guess, but I would not ride one.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...
    I live in the US, 49cc and less is not considered to be licensed motorized transport. Also, there are regulations that define the differences between "gas motor" and "electric motor". No gas powered motors, regardless of piston displacement, can enter State and/or Federally funded trail systems that are not marked specifically for gas powered engines. I have already seen several electric motors climbing hills on trails in my area. The only time an electric motor would be an annoyance, is if the rider was not warning people during rear approach and is not pulling over for people coming uphill.
    I drive more when the streets need repairs! -'95 ZJ

  18. #68
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    MA rider from USA. Most of the areas I ride in say NO motorized vehicles. The ebikes I have seen, in my lbs are VERY heavy, 40-50 pounds. They are also throttle assist, meaning you still have to pedal. How is that heavy a bike going to handle all the tech trails that we have around here. Let alone try to get the front end up over a rock or log. Plus they seem to be $ 4-7 K. I can't see them becoming very popular here. Plus rules already in place not allowing them on trails. I think there will be a very vocal argument against them.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dopamine View Post
    I think we mountain bikers should really distance ourselves from these ebikes. Make it clear they another new separate user class on the trails that are totally different from pedal powered bikes. I just see the anti-bike forces trying to lump ebikes in with mountain bikes and try to get us banned from more trails, or at least not open more trails to us. It is not a bicycle, it is a motorized vehicle, totally different and seperate from mountain bikes - has to be emphasized.
    Exactly. I'm not against ebikes. I'm not against ATVs, dirt-bikes, horses, or any other recreational vehicle.

    But ebikes are not bikes. They are "mopeds" and we should start calling them that. If you saw a moped on your mountain bike trail you'd be a little put out. Only difference here is that ebikes have quieter motors and a lot more marketing.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Most disabilities are bogus. Not to mention you can get disability for just about anything nowadays. Generally nowadays if you are stupid, out of shape, and unemployable you can get disability.

    It's like handicap parking. Most of the people who get it could easily walk (and should walk) an extra fifty feet.

    Some people who are really disabled, ironically, cannot get disability.

  21. #71
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    These electric bikes have been around for a few years, and have their place as well. My parents in law (who are in their late 60's/early 70's) both have one as does the wife (!) each with the baby seat on them. These bikes are more town bikes, and we are lucky that we have a lot of cycle tracks here in north Italy: but saying that I have had a few young'uns trying to race me when I am on the road bike, and it makes me laugh then I just drop them!!!

    But another valid point that has been raised is how the various laws and bye-laws regard them!!! Already here on the cycletracks there are people who just dont respect the rules, ie crossing, other track users, and I have seen a few collisions!!! What we have now with these bikes is people able to sustain their speed (max 25kph) uphill as well.

    As for the new breed of mountain bikes with power, I have already been passed going uphill on a piece of doubletrack by such a bike!!!!Not really humiliating as I was on a SS!!!
    N+1 = the correct equation for the number of bikes...............

  22. #72
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    Save us from the enemy....

    Quote Originally Posted by ou2mame View Post
    I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

    And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.

    Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk
    Not every experience should be able to had easily though, I'd love to experience a "barrel" surfing, but I can't surf and **** scared of sharks. If it was so easy everyone would do it and wouldn't be so special.....same as experiencing amazing mtb trails. We work and train hard to get to a physical state and skill set so we can ride alot of these trails and if e-bikes are going to be allowed on them then it's like footballers taking steroids......it's unfair on the people that work hard to get where they've got.


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  23. #73
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    Wait, you guys don't think that thing looks fun!? I'd have a blast on that bike! Don't think they should be allowed where dirt bikes are not, though.....

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoNin9r View Post
    Here's hoping we'll be fast enough to run them down and give them a nice, "hey, go f**k yourself."
    If I heard some motor buzzing behind me, I'm not moving over. If he can pass on his own, he can. I will certainly be telling a ranger what and when.

    How long did it take cities to ban Segways from their sidewalks.
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  25. #75
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    It should be classified as motorized vehicle, at least if it comes equipped to be legally ridden on roads, via the inclusion of reflectors. Per the definition below, I'd call them motoroized vehicles...

    Allowed on trails that allow motorcycles, not allowed on trails that don't...

    Now if reflectors are excluded from the product sold to customers, I don't know what to think. Other than e-mountain bikes still suck.

    49 U.S. Code § 30102 - Definitions:
    (6) “motor vehicle” means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

  26. #76
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    New member here so thanks in advance for having me.
    What seems to get lost in these debates is exactly what we all (truly) want for our kids/theirs, how to go about creating that legacy and what kind of leadership will get us there..if legacies are even valued anymore in the first place.
    #1 and probably most important...kids and most socially agreeable human beings could care less what their friend (potentially or otherwise) brings to the trailhead for the purposes of having a good time in a group atmosphere. It could be a piece of junk, it could be more advanced..these fun loving individuals don't 'time' who gets to the first rest stop the fastest as long as they all get there together (safely).
    #2 (and just as important)...the trail that they all ride on must be sustainably maintained no matter the cost to the individual or their relative impact to the trail. If it has been determined that in 2014 a professional MTBer actually (normally) 'rode' a reasonably powered ebike on that particular trail and caused 'x' more impact than he did riding in the same manner without one...here's your added fee for using an ebike.
    We will never achieve unity in any off road community without the following:
    1) "paying to play" (everybody, due to our indebtedness forever at every level of funding and future tax burdens)..
    and
    2) making certain that 'money' is taken off of the table (forever) very early in the courtship of two competing ideals.

    This is all about money, folks as many of you already know. The bicycling industry is a fragile one just like the off road industry. Always has been; always will be. Traditionally (see motorcycles, atvs and now side-by-sides) the strategy has always been to 'divide and conquer' any organized individuals to retain not only market share but to SURVIVE.
    When enthusiasts begin to simply work together and figure out strategies to share the same space, guess what?..we need less (cough) 'leadership' not more. Our now collective money goes not to 'conventions' and wrote off lunches with bureaucrats seeking to keep us divided and as many OFF public lands as possible...but to the very legal professionals who can walk and chew gum in the first place (i.e. fight/solve MULTI-USE access issues with both hands tied behind their backs and few 'middlemen' required).
    'Division' in this country is a huge money and 'career' maker. A lot of these "let me make this crystal clear...MTBing is human powered ONLY!" bicycle companies and non-profit leaders are right now shaking in their boots for one simple reason:
    Most of you have never ridden one.
    Sure, they have enough die hards around them right now to keep convincing all of you that "by gosh...and you never should!"..YET YOUR KIDS AND SOMEDAY THEIRS WILL CARE LESS WHAT DAD AND MOM 'WOULDN'T DO' OR WHO THEY 'WOULDN'T TALK TO' AT THE TRAILHEAD!
    It's not that many of these people 'hate' ebikes..it's that ebikes represent 'the future' and 'the past' has been pretty darn good to them in terms of either sales, non-profit leadership salaries/unheard of side benefits/lucrative relationships/travel/swag/notoriety...and understandably...they're not all that really keen on giving any of this 'up' simply for the sake of the 'good of the sport' they all frankly based their reputations around.

    Bottom line...the people presently leading the charge against electric powered two wheel transportation 'anywhere' care absolutely nothing about your namesake's ability to ride tomorrow or for any of us to band together so that dream (legacy) is a reality that we can be proud of (hopefully) long before we leave this earth.

    It's a slap in the face I know..but one doesn't have to look too far in American society to find many others working closely with government agencies and corporate America to achieve the same end (divide/conquer and reap the rewards).

    Wake up, folks. it's your kids were talking about.
    Last edited by OurLegacy; 09-06-2014 at 08:19 AM.

  27. #77
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    Well I don't know about all that ^^ . But I will say this: the ebikes are clearly being designed for the mtb trails we all ride, I mean they are using the same components.. And the idea that new Ebike only trails would start popping up all over the place to accommodate is wishful at best. Having said that, the lazy people that decide to ride them WILL be on your trail eventually. So while we may not agree with it whatsoever, it would be foolish of us to ignore the issue. By being proactive about the problems that can and will arise, I think we can prevent these problems before they start. Just saying we don't agree and hoping it goes away will fail 100% of the time.. Example: instead of posting a NO EBIKE sign at the trailhead, Why not just regulate the days or times they can ride them. Is it completely fair to them, no. But they should have thought about that when they decided to ride those chEat Bikes..

  28. #78
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    Most disturbing this is.... I have no problem with them existing. They are a motorized vehicle, a cycle with a motor, a motorcycle, all of them. They should not be anywhere that does not allow motorized vehicles, which as far as I'm aware are not all, but the vast majority of trails in MA. Even the rail trails say "no motorized vehicles".

    Also, I'm about to have a kid and he will power his wheeled toys. His hover board though, that's different.

  29. #79
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    I picked up my eMTB for 2K.
    Your kids will pick these up 'used' for much less and gladly go ride with their more 'liberal' friends as opposed to their 'old fashioned' Dad or Mom who are militantly against such a thing...no discussion allowed (see above).
    Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get them into MTBing if they look at you now as nothing but another crotchety old man who stubbornly demands that the trails you both 'used to ride' (together) suddenly become the place that you go get await from him or her.
    I'd hate to lose time with my child over 'a bike' or a 'principal' that some leader in the MTBing community demands that you adhere to as the price of admission to 'the club'.

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    ...correction...you can bring your kid along to the ride...just make certain that he never utters the word 'electric' in front of the powers that be or anyone else in attendance...or you're BOTH 'gone'...

  31. #81
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    Troll. If you knew what you were talking about I'd be upset. Also, finger wagging should be reserved for the dance floor.

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    I'm just the guy hoping to sell your child a used electric mountain bike (soon) if you have no interesting in riding one yourself or with him/her on your local trail.
    His or her friends will have them and all three of us will be lobbying hard soon (with myself) to access the public lands which we both possess the right to ride.

    If you feel so strongly about the matter that you would rather him or her ride with me instead of you (and enjoy sitting across from the both of us in court)...I can't argue with how your family dynamics work themselves out and don't desire to.

    Just ride one guys and gals. You might not only like it but notice that you actually are tearing up the trails less and seeing more for whatever energy you can muster over a full day's worth of riding.

    Just don't let some of the others up here see you actually giving one a try.

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    ..by the way guys (and gals)...how many young people would you guess that we've made (good) friends with over the years who were saddled with die hard single track motorcyclist fathers that couldn't get over the fact that their children preferred riding atvs?

    We're riding with/learning from/teaching these kids of all ages and having the times of our lives...while their father and his 'buddy' are chasing each other down their 'exclusive' single track after they couldn't understand what had just happened (and obviously didn't care).

    Sad but true.

  34. #84
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    The problem with the world today is that everyone thinks that they should be able to do everything or anything anyone else can, physical limitations or restrictions be damned. Wake up people, we are not all equal, some are better at some things than others, we all can't run a 100m in <11 seconds, we all can't drive an F1 car like Hamilton, We can't all design rocket ships.... You do what you can within your limits, don't fvck everyone elses fun or thing up because you want to do it despite not having the natural ability or physical ability to do so.

    E-Bikes should stay where they were designed for, as pedal assist for commuters to help reduce traffic congestion and emissions. The small percentage of people who would use an e-MTB in a respectful fashion would be very limited, these are clearly marketed at the ever growing, lazy, overweight N.American populous.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

    Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.
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  35. #85
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    E-mountain bikes are alrady being promoted by mtb magazines.

    MBA published a feature story about Nathan Rennie, the motocross superstar, and how he competes in DH mtb races. He has a 4500W Dh mtb that he uses for practice runs in Southridge, and boasts of being able to practice the DH course 5 times for every one time the other racers who use the shuttle truck do.

    The magazines editor, "Jimmy Mac' , is resigning from his position, and there is some talk about this being related to Hi-Torque publications decision to not only tout e-mtb's, but to publish an entire new, separate magazine for them.

    Dirt Rag magazine also published an article on them recently, and to me they tried to depict the issue as open for debate regarding the potential benefits of e-mtb's. WTF, Dirt Rag?

    So, when you have major publications in effect shilling for the e-mtb market, it IS gonna be a fight.

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by OurLegacy View Post
    ..by the way guys (and gals)...how many young people would you guess that we've made (good) friends with over the years who were saddled with die hard single track motorcyclist fathers that couldn't get over the fact that their children preferred riding atvs?

    We're riding with/learning from/teaching these kids of all ages and having the times of our lives...while their father and his 'buddy' are chasing each other down their 'exclusive' single track after they couldn't understand what had just happened (and obviously didn't care).

    Sad but true.
    Where do you pedal? Here in MA, there may be 2 legal places where you can ride motorized vehicles on public land, this is not the western part of the country. No motorized vehicles allowed where I ride, period. 5 posts ?, I dare you to name your employer or business related to your electric motorcycle business. All the illegal atv's and motorcycles just rip up all the trails and double track. You will not find any friends here.

  37. #87
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    if it gets people outside and doing something, cool. I am not so stuck up that it has to be my way or no way.

  38. #88
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    OurLegacy.
    A bike with a motor is not a MTB plain and simple. Have fun riding them at one of the OHV trails,but don't ever think you will legally ride a MTB trail!
    I'm pretty complacent when it comes to most social/political issues.
    Having said that I will fight tooth and nail to keep you off MTB trails. I have a strong suspicion many others will step forward to do the same.
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  39. #89
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    STRAVA! At least I yell it out before I bunny-hop hikers and shove slower riders off the trail.
    Geologist by trade...bicycle mechanic (former) by the grace of God!

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  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by OurLegacy View Post
    I picked up my eMTB for 2K.
    Your kids will pick these up 'used' for much less and gladly go ride with their more 'liberal' friends as opposed to their 'old fashioned' Dad or Mom who are militantly against such a thing...no discussion allowed (see above).
    Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get them into MTBing if they look at you now as nothing but another crotchety old man who stubbornly demands that the trails you both 'used to ride' (together) suddenly become the place that you go get await from him or her.
    I'd hate to lose time with my child over 'a bike' or a 'principal' that some leader in the MTBing community demands that you adhere to as the price of admission to 'the club'.
    If you live in rural Wyoming or Montana or someplace with a low population density, I don't see any reason why you should'nt be able to ride your electric dirt bike on trails that aran't specifically marked as non-motorized access only.

    But here in SoCal, anybody riding an E-bike on a public multi-use trail will be cited if they are caught.

    That's just the way the ball rolls, you don't have to like it, but you do have to respect the laws.

    So, for your sake, and for mine as well, I hope you do live in Wyoming, because in SoCal the number of trails being closed to just bicycles is outnumbering the ones being opened up to regular bicycles, and injecting e-bikes into the mix will for sure provide the bike-haters the added ammo they can use to close even more trails.

    you will not find any friends in the mtb community, unless they are paid shills for e-bikes. We know how tenuous our access to the trails we can legally ride already is, and some of us are a bit too old to play cops and robbers with CDFW officers.

    They ain't just checking fishing and hunting licenses anymore.

  41. #91
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    I just got back into riding mountainbikes a half year ago after a 4 year hiatus, before that I mostly did downhill (abroad) and some cross country nearby.
    But now I can only ride nearby and only have the time to go once (maybe twice) a week. But most of the times it is just to exhausting or I am going slower then I would like and it hasnt improved much since I started again. Also when it starts to get colder again outside my asthma doesnt help either.
    For me mountainbiking is about having fun and I have fun when I go fast on certain (technical) sections of trail but most of the time it is just suffering to get to the next fun part.
    So now I am thinking about buying a e-mtb, the type that only gives you assistance up to 15mph and is considered to be a bicycle in the Netherlands. I just hope to have more fun when I do go riding because I can cover the dull parts without suffering and can get up to speed easier before a fun technical sector.
    Why would it be considered cheating because I am not doing any competitions or anything. Also I dont rip up the trails more then another mountainbiker that rides multiple times a week and I still wont be the fastest on the track.

    quote from dirtmag
    So, to ‘the point’ of mountain biking… well, it’s fun isn’t it? I’m not against the clock; I’m alone in the woods with a bike. I’ve been told a few times that the bike is cheating. Who exactly am I cheating? How do you cheat at fun? The speed, grip and stability of this bike make me laugh out loud, alone, in the woods. That’s not cheating, that’s how mountain biking should be.
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  42. #92
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    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    I just got back into walking about a year ago. I haven't gotten any better at it but I would like to get to the fun parts as soon as possible so I got a car to help with that. Just one of those ones that only assists when you push the gas pedal and tops out at 85mph. It's not cheating because I'm not walking competitively. It's what walking should be!
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  43. #93
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    You have to realize that riding a pedal assisted bicycle and riding a bicycle are severely different than walking and driving in so many ways...

    Anyways, i can see this picking up in fat bikes.. Imagine a front wheel assisted fat bike in the snow.. 2wd! I've seen a 2wd bicycle with a cable going to the front hub, but that didn't work too well..

    Anyways, *****ing about it on a forum isn't going to do anything. It's up to the lbs' who will push them out the door.. If they're legitimate mountain bikers they won't carry them. If they're just in it for a quick buck, thats another story.

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  44. #94
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    Re: Save us from the enemy....

    My point is e-biking is motorized. Just like driving a car that does 85mph or a moped that only does 25mph. Walking and mountain biking are human powered activities. If you don't enjoy the human power part of it then accept it and call it what it is. A dirt bike. A moto. And keep it where motos are allowed and away from where they are not.

    The shops will sell what they are told to sell because it's in the contract. If they can get the price down to typical price of a QBP fat bike, they will sell like crazy. I don't know why but I just have that feeling. The equestrians and HOHA will have a field day and our final nail will be driven in to the coffin. The industry will have made a few bucks to satisfy the shareholders momentarily and the MTB haters will have the trails back to themselves and we will be left to reminisce about the good old days when we were allowed to ride our bikes in the woods.
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    My point is e-biking is motorized. Just like driving a car that does 85mph or a moped that only does 25mph. Walking and mountain biking are human powered activities. If you don't enjoy the human power part of it then accept it and call it what it is. A dirt bike. A moto. And keep it where motos are allowed and away from where they are not.
    But you still need the human power with the ebike, else the motor wont do anything. So I wouldnt call it a dirt bike. Also the power levels of dirtbikes are in another league. 25kW is easily obtained with a 125cc or bigger motorcycle which is already a 100x more then the 0.25kW that a ebike can deliver.
    What will a ebike do that a regular mtb cant? The only thing is that you can ride longer and a bit faster on slow sections. You cant suddenly go 80mph and rip the track to pieces. Also noise and enviromental issues are not a problem with ebikes.

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  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post

    Good article. I think it's awesome that the editor of Bicycling Magazine stepped down because they were insistent on promoting e-bikes, hats off to Jimmy Mcllvain for sticking to his principals!


    The A.S.S. is right on target IMO, I've been saying this in one form or another since first hearing about these electric motorcycles with pedals attached to them-

    But to me, trying to blur the lines of categorization, cry out “discrimination” or ask “what will old and disabled people do?” is just a way for e-bike entrepreneurs to get their foot jammed in the door of non-motorized mountain bike trail access so they can rake in maximum profitability.

  48. #98
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    Nice discussion and great article by Single speeder.
    I have an impression that all the supporters of e-bikes are paid by the industry and come here to instigate the discussion. Most of hem make no sense... Like the dude above ( OurLegacy ) saying the kids will ride motorbikes instead of regular bikes... yea right... My kids are begging me to ride mountain bikes with them.. if anything the future is in using your body more and have kids more active and fit vs pushing buttons on mopeds. That's why we do not see runners on segways but more and more people running marafones (even with disabilities)

    Believe me, I like motocross and go cart riding. My kids love it too.. But they are smart enough to separate those activities and figure out what equipment belongs on what track. And at the end of the day they still want to run outside and play soccer, catch or ride a regular bike and come home tired with pink cheeks. No e-bike can replace that.

  49. #99
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    Old people will ride E-bikes and they don't give an F, like honeybadgers.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  50. #100
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    With all the hype by paid supporters I had to see what it's all about,. so I went and checked out some of those pedal assist bikes at the store and rode in the lot and dirt lot around the store. I was really surprised how lame those things are.

    - First - they are heavy - really heavy. 50-75 LB
    - That makes them clumsy and hard to handle - I will never ride one on a technical trail ( it is that bad) and i tried to like it
    - That makes the battery not last - 20 miles of lame riding without pushing, if pushing hard it will be really low (full throttle, major uphill, tech terrain going all out)
    - That makes pedaling it with dead battery - impossible
    - Second - Expensive - 4-5 K for a mid range one
    - Battery is very expensive and needs to be locked to prevent stealing
    - Tough to secure if using for commuting
    - my $200 hard tail is better for commuting and I can lock it anywhere
    - They are governed to 20MPH - that kills the fun even on the road (where this thing can actually move) - I can go faster on road bike
    - Third - controversy on access - banned everywhere - even some bike paths and cities, so I have to be very limited in use
    - therefore all the salespeople I talked to are not happy to sell them
    - demand is really low according to them and the only people they see buying it in Us are people who do not have a car - but even they are looking at scooters instead.

    So now I want to ride some of the super powerful - throttle equipped electric bikes going 60 mph+ - maybe they are more fun..( if fun is the name of the game) but then again if I can only ride it on the motocross trails why not get a motocross bike.. I suspect it is still more fun...

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