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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.

    You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?

    Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?

    Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
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  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.
    That's total BS. All the 'rich' persons I know work their tails off, take risks, and EMPLOY other people. Geezus, this macro-jealousy of success needs to stop.

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  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
    That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse
    Saying "you didnt build that" is so much easier than actually going out and building it.
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  6. #256
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    Them city slicker cars are cool but out in the sticks we jack **** up.



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  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?

    Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made
    You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

    Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.

    National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

    At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints.

    Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.

    Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.
    Here is a website discussing mobility.
    Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
    If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

    Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.



    Here is a website discussing mobility.
    Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
    If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.
    Changing the subject also doesnt prove your point. Your earlier post tried to argue that MOST rich people didnt earn it - and are therefore worthy of derision.

    Now you're arguing income mobility - not just over all, but from the very bottom. Sorry, different subject.
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  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Changing the subject also doesnt prove your point. Your earlier post tried to argue that MOST rich people didnt earn it - and are therefore worthy of derision.

    Now you're arguing income mobility - not just over all, but from the very bottom. Sorry, different subject.
    Where did I ever argue that rich people did not earn it? Could you please point that out for me? While you search fruitlessly consider this.

    41% of people now in the top quintile had parents in the top quintile. You can't have 84% of them self made when those are the actual statistics. You can pretend. They can pretend. They can tout how incredibly "self made" they are. But at a max 59% of them could have been partially self made and that is still being generous since some might have barely moved. This does not imply they are lazy, foolish, smart, hard working. They may be any of these things, but 41% of the wealthy had parents who were also wealthy.

  10. #260
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    I don't see how it makes any difference how people make it. If they have more then me, I say, good for them. It's not my business or anyone's business how someone has the amount of money that they have.

  11. #261
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    No matter how they got it, money doesn't buy happiness. Lots of unhappy rich people and many poor people are very happy.

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
    Don't you live in the bay area? This sounds like talking points from a flyover state politician. I live in one of the richest counties in the state (Marin) and often liberals are the rich.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

    Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.



    Here is a website discussing mobility.
    Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
    If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.
    None of that refutes what I posted, if we define successful as being a millionaire, but feel free to carry on. Stanley and Danko showed similar results.
    Last edited by BumpityBump; 12-09-2012 at 07:42 PM.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.
    Absolutely incorrect. Most millionares are self-made. Read "The Millionare Next Door." You just see the few who are high profile and "out there." Sure, the Kennedy's and their ilk get all the press but most rich people earned their money.

    I do very well and I earn mine every ****ing day.

    I also resent the notion that I had things handed to me. Where was President Obama when I was working 120 hours a week as the Senior Resident running the Intensive Care Unit of a major urban hospital for $2.15 an hour? Sitting on his rear in the Illinois State House doing nothing and living off the public which is the goal of the dependocracy.

    It's typical of the lazy and poor to envy others because it's easier then doing something to better themselves. Not everybody can be a millionare but almost anybody can improve their condition in life substantially with some self-discipline and hard work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Absolutely incorrect. Most millionares are self-made. Read "The Millionare Next Door." You just see the few who are high profile and "out there." Sure, the Kennedy's and their ilk get all the press but most rich people earned their money.

    I do very well and I earn mine every ****ing day.

    I also resent the notion that I had things handed to me. Where was President Obama when I was working 120 hours a week as the Senior Resident running the Intensive Care Unit of a major urban hospital for $2.15 an hour? Sitting on his rear in the Illinois State House doing nothing and living off the public which is the goal of the dependocracy.

    It's typical of the lazy and poor to envy others because it's easier then doing something to better themselves. Not everybody can be a millionare but almost anybody can improve their condition in life substantially with some self-discipline and hard work.
    Yes, Obama is lazy.

    This is all getting ridiculous. I remember now why I don't post here much anymore.

    Back to passion about cheap racks on expensive cars!

    Thank god ski season is here. Cut a nice load of wood today, and a Christmas tree, that's my kind of passion. Carry on folks, carry on....

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.

    So because your friend...gotcha

    You sound like a bitter hater.

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    Yes, Obama is lazy.
    Obama seems quite industrious to me, he's got a funny name, he's half black, a Muslim, and not even born in America and he still kicked the **** out of the best that rich white men could offer. Not too shabby. He's even rich for you rich envy folks out there.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse
    Better than having a president that doesn't grant basic social liberties, but I digress - this is a no-politics forum.

    I neither hate on the rich as a group, nor offer any additional respect to them as a group. Those who didn't earn it deserve the same respect as those who don't have it. Judge people by their actions, not their bank accounts.

  19. #269
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    I'm a rich, self-made liberal who voted for Obama and supports Universal healthcare and higher taxes for my income group.

    Whatchoo gonna do now?

  20. #270
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    I live in Jackson Hole.


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  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
    "And here's why liberals hate the rich."

    /facepalm....when i s the last time you have been in northern california? odds are that the owner of the bentley in my original post is probably as liberal as the day is long...

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by stencil View Post
    I'm a rich, self-made liberal who voted for Obama and supports Universal healthcare and higher taxes for my income group.

    Whatchoo gonna do now?
    Our government can't even do something as simple as get our mail from point A to point B without losing billions. What makes you think they can do something much more difficult as healthcare and not royally screw it up?

    Higher taxes? Our government wants higher taxes because of their waste and corruption. So, you want them to take more of our money out of the economy so they can also flush it down the toilet? When are you people going to learn, that with our government, it's never enough. How much of your money are you going to let them waste before you say: enough is enough?

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    "And here's why liberals hate the rich."

    /facepalm....when i s the last time you have been in northern california? odds are that the owner of the bentley in my original post is probably as liberal as the day is long...
    Yeah, sounds like someone's demonizing the liberals much more than the liberals allegedly demonize the rich. Hypocrisy at its best.

    Since it's not going away, here's the thing. Government's primary role is to protect the rights of its citizens. Involvement in the economy is always secondary to this. This is why Republican options as of late are not even options at all - I, along with anyone who believes in equal rights, was HUGELY relieved that Romney didn't take office and couldn't believe that so many supported him. I can't say I'm impressed either with how people's income tax is spent all of the time, but I think there are more fundamental issues with government structure, and the fact that most people in government are grossly overpaid.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Our government can't even do something as simple as get our mail from point A to point B without losing billions. What makes you think they can do something much more difficult as healthcare and not royally screw it up?

    Higher taxes? Our government wants higher taxes because of their waste and corruption. So, you want them to take more of our money out of the economy so they can also flush it down the toilet? When are you people going to learn, that with our government, it's never enough. How much of your money are you going to let them waste before you say: enough is enough?

    The us post office is a privately run arm of the government that is actually profitable. It starts making a loss when the lawmakers demand that it pays billions ($5.5 bil) to the federal government. Yes, those losses were created by the leeches in both houses.

    At least get your facts right before you spout this crap.

    http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/201...vice-woes?lite

    I'm not going to address the tax stuff you talk about.... that's complete BS especially with all the loopholes in the tax laws.....and I'm not going to help you understand how $100 matters much much more to a poor person than $5000 to a millionaire.

    -S

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  25. #275
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    Thou shalt not judge


    This passion thread has degraded into a rich versus poor.


    My passion is riding my Mongoose Blackcomb All Mountain dual suspension. I ride. And that's all I care for. Take after my example, for I exhibit great character and ethics.

  26. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by legking View Post
    This passion thread has degraded into a rich versus poor.
    Naw, not at all. It degraded into informed vs. mis-informed!

    Aaaaaand that's why MTBR doesn't want politics on its boards. I've lost a bunch of respect for users I otherwise would have never known differed fundamentally so much, nor cared. On the other hand, if we could get just a little bit of understanding of each side across...

  27. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by legking View Post
    Thou shalt not judge

    Take after my example, for I exhibit great character and ethics.
    You're judging.

  28. #278
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    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    Yep. Should have painted the trailer to match the car.

  30. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    The sacrilege is the $200 Walmart bike ...
    Pisgah Area SORBA

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

  31. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostBoyScout View Post
    Since it's not going away, here's the thing. Government's primary role is to protect the rights of its citizens. Involvement in the economy is always secondary to this. This is why Republican options as of late are not even options at all - I, along with anyone who believes in equal rights, was HUGELY relieved that Romney didn't take office and couldn't believe that so many supported him. I can't say I'm impressed either with how people's income tax is spent all of the time, but I think there are more fundamental issues with government structure, and the fact that most people in government are grossly overpaid.
    Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.

  32. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.
    This is fairly true. You want to see grossly overpaid and often unqualified, just look to local and state government. I know worthless secretaries making well over a 100k in one bay area city, yet they laid off cops instead to cut the budget.

  33. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.
    Thanks for the optimism, lol.

    I was thinking more on the municipal level. I'm actually Canadian (explains a lot!) but if it's anything like here, government workers are paid three times the minimum wage to cut grass and the like. Also with the benefits packages, landing a city gig is like winning the lotto. It should be comparable to other jobs IMO. Again I am assuming based on Canadian tendencies. This as mentioned doesn't fall under the President's umbrella but is tax dollar funded

  34. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    No matter how they got it, money doesn't buy happiness.
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


  35. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    Safe' perhaps... but there's not much about that car that would fall anywhere near the definition of "stealth"!

    Enjoy and happy birthday!

  36. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    You're gonna put a muddy mountain bike INSIDE your car? Get yourself a rack for riding days, sir. Trust me on this.

  37. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    This is fairly true. You want to see grossly overpaid and often unqualified, just look to local and state government. I know worthless secretaries making well over a 100k in one bay area city, yet they laid off cops instead to cut the budget.
    Yes this is generally true, and I find it annoying when such employees are also lazy and do a bad job, but I don't mind paying people a livable wage for a job well done even if the job isn't super difficult to qualify for. The problem is that certain areas such as the bay area require ridiculous amounts of money to find a place to live and therefore a livable wage is far higher than elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostBoyScout View Post
    Thanks for the optimism, lol.

    I was thinking more on the municipal level. I'm actually Canadian (explains a lot!) but if it's anything like here, government workers are paid three times the minimum wage to cut grass and the like. Also with the benefits packages, landing a city gig is like winning the lotto. It should be comparable to other jobs IMO. Again I am assuming based on Canadian tendencies. This as mentioned doesn't fall under the President's umbrella but is tax dollar funded
    Even at the federal level as the education level of the employee declines they do better than their private sector counterparts, but as the education level increases they do worse. Basically wages are more even across the range which pulls the top down and the bottom up. I am not endorsing this or complaining, just commenting on it.


    @Hal that is a nice car and will be fun. However if I were to buy a toy someday I think I would tend toward something like the lotus elise. I have always been partial to them.

  38. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    You've got modest dreams and no doubt earned it. Enjoy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    mmmm a GT3. I rather see it pulling a trailer (I see the track tires on the trailer and hopefully the rest of the owner's track kit is inside the box) than being a "trailer-queen" GT3 that is carried to and from the track with a trailer.

    I've always said "Daily driver is a state of mind.".....and all my track cars thus far have fit that description.

    WTF bike is that on it anyhoo? Looks like a cheapie.

  40. #290
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    Well this thread has gotten tremendously more interesting . . .
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  41. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    You've got modest dreams and no doubt earned it. Enjoy!
    Which pretty much is the trick if you ask me.
    Being content.

    At a relatively modest point, money does not really bring much to the table.
    Below that point, money makes a lot of difference.

    I saw an article not long ago, where the point was to see where more money does no longer increase the level of happiness.
    The exact number was differing a bit, depending where people are situated, but for most of the industrialized countries, it was around an annual income of 150,000$.
    I would have expected that number to be a bit higher, maybe like 200,000$.

    Personally though I would estimate the number to be much lower, like 50,000$.
    Nothing much changed in my life after I crossed that number.
    Having said that, part of the reason could be my lack of interest in cars, which seems to push the number upwards quite a bit.


    Magura

  42. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post

    Personally though I would estimate the number to be much lower, like 50,000$.
    Nothing much changed in my life after I crossed that number.
    Having said that, part of the reason could be my lack of interest in cars, which seems to push the number upwards quite a bit.


    Magura
    I don't know. Sometime after I passed that number, I was able to pay off my debt and live debt free thereafter, including buying the car(s) I wanted, when I wanted. That was a pretty big change, and a very happy one, too.

    Well, OK, maybe not any car I wanted, but for the most part, anyway.

    At that $150K number, I might be able to consider buying my last, ultimate toy... an airplane.

  43. #293
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    Magura what study was that? I agee with your premise, but as I am curious about such things I would like to read up on it. Anyway I would think 80k myself as a cross over.

  44. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by stencil View Post
    You're gonna put a muddy mountain bike INSIDE your car? Get yourself a rack for riding days, sir. Trust me on this.
    I've got a friend that has a nice car Challenger SRT8 that fold down the back seats and remove the wheels place the bike on an old queen size comforter fold half over and place the wheels on top.

    no muss no fuss

    We also have my wife's Honda element that is our main bike transport vehicle therefore I highly doubt I'll be taking a GT500 on too many bike related adventures.

  45. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I've got a friend that has a nice car Challenger SRT8 that fold down the back seats and remove the wheels place the bike on an old queen size comforter fold half over and place the wheels on top.

    no muss no fuss

    We also have my wife's Honda element that is our main bike transport vehicle therefore I highly doubt I'll be taking a GT500 on too many bike related adventures.
    Fairnuff. You must be a lot neater than I am, though. No matter what I do mud gets everywhere.

  46. #296
    DIY all the way
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Magura what study was that? I agee with your premise, but as I am curious about such things I would like to read up on it. Anyway I would think 80k myself as a cross over.
    Here you go:

    The Perfect Income for Happiness? It's $161,000


    Magura

  47. #297
    Don't be a sheep
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  48. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.
    At least Ford was able to "invent" overhead cam engines ... some American companies are still working on that. Even 1975 VW rabbits had overhead cams and a cool skateboard like truck rear end.

  49. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Thanks man. Unfortunately from what I can tell they basically asked a bunch of people "How much money do you need to be happy" and that was the answer they got.

    I would prefer if they attempted to see "how happy are you" and "oh by the way how much do you make?"

    Given the median income is lower basically most people were saying "I need more money than I have to be happy." At least it could be construed that way. And yes I realize measuring happiness is fraught with difficulty anyway.

  50. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.
    That's like saying a hot chicks elbows are pointy...
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