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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Really? I find them quite classy.
    I think they looked good back in the day. I guess they look about as good as one of those pimped out Chrysler 300s with giant useless wheels.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    I'd have to disagree with this one. In fact, Porsche (not sure if you consider them beautiful cars or not) has a campaign called "Porsche Everyday" and emphasize their cars aren't supposed to be put in the garage and just brought on sunny Sundays. They're for everyday, all weather use.
    That's fine but most Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other exotics are track cars. You may be able to throw all season tires on and run on the snow but they were designed for racing and you will simply not be able to do what they were designed for outside of the closed course track. I do think that much (not all) of what Porsche does is beautiful.
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr View Post
    That's fine but most Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other exotics are track cars. You may be able to throw all season tires on and run on the snow but they were designed for racing and you will simply not be able to do what they were designed for outside of the closed course track. I do think that much (not all) of what Porsche does is beautiful.
    Very few people who own exotics use them as track cars.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Very few people who own exotics use them as track cars.
    Hey, in Silicon Valley about half have automatics!

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Hey, in Silicon Valley about half have automatics!
    I'm sorry to hear that!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Very few people who own exotics use them as track cars.
    I agree with you 100% but it does not change what the car was designed to do. I have been in living in Houston for six months now and have seen more exotics than ever before. Last place that had so many was when I was in Tokyo and Yokohama. A couple of weeks ago I was down town heading to work and I heard the high revving scream of a white Lexus LFA's V10. He pulled into the building across the street from where I work.

    It's interesting though because I think that there were many more exotic bikes (mountain bikes that is) when I was at school up in Utah...
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Hey, in Silicon Valley about half have automatics!
    That's because most no longer come in a traditional manual.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Oh no you can't! Do you know how many pairs of panties you can collect driving a Bentley around?
    You got me there man.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    That's because most no longer come in a traditional manual.
    That's sad. Can't say I'd even want one then.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Oh no you can't! Do you know how many pairs of panties you can collect driving a Bentley around?
    Especially with a bike rack!
    buzzes like a fridge

  11. #211
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    my "if i were ultra rich" fantasy involves mega-sized mopar luxury from the late sixties/early seventies...god, oh god, oh god, these cars would FLY! (and i'd strap a bike rack to it in a heartbeat)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rich people passion-1971lebaron.jpeg  


  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    People that can afford very high end cars buy them b/c they want them. Not because they need transportation. You can get the same transportation way cheaper. They are partially toys and there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with that. If a person wants to put snow tires and jack up a lambo or some other toy that is perfectly fine. However it doesn't suddenly make the vehicle practical. BTW I saw a guy in a porsche cayenne spinning out all over in the snow while we drove easily thru it in my subaru. So apparently it wasn't that good after all (I have to assume he either had silly tires or did not know how to drive very well, but it was still a bit humorous).
    Hey, I never said anything about practicality!! Though there are some aspects that can make some of these expensive cars as practical as a less expensive option. Notice I didn't say anything about value, either. We bought a nicer car for my wife who does use it as a daily driver. With the car seat and all that goes with a youngster in the backseat, too... crumbs, spilled juice etc. Still, we like the car can afford it and it should have great longevity with the diesel engine. I actually sometimes feel uncomfortable driving it, like I don't make enough to be driving a car like that. Image marketing works! I haven't put a bike rack on it, though... YET!

    As for the Cayenne, you can't blame the car. I see more people who get in trouble in the SUVs or AWD vehicles than many in FWD or RWD cars. People understand 4WD and AWD go much better in the snow and generally handle better (assuming you don't do stupid stuff) but utterly fail to recognize they won't stop better than any other car with 4 wheel brakes and, in most cases, worse because of the extra weight of the second axle drive components.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr View Post
    That's fine but most Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other exotics are track cars. You may be able to throw all season tires on and run on the snow but they were designed for racing and you will simply not be able to do what they were designed for outside of the closed course track. I do think that much (not all) of what Porsche does is beautiful.
    Again, I have to disagree. They are not track cars. If they were, they wouldn't have the creature comforts and many of the safety items that are required for cars designed for the road. They are designed with racing inspired features and do well and are a boatload of fun on the track, but they are designed as road cars.

    I will agree, however, that you will not be able to make full use of their capabilities on the roads in this country, though in Montana you might be able to have some fun for about a hundred bucks. If you get caught!

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbat View Post
    Looks like something out of a lame 1970s clint eastwood movie..right turn clyde

    Can imagine the roll going round a corner on a car like that and the mpg...scrap it rofl

    Edit...multiply the roll by a factor of 20 after 150 mg of alchohol
    the chrysler imperial was not meant to corner; rather, it was meant to gracefully cruise down arrow-straight interstate 70 between columbus and indianapolis at 80mph...

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Again, I have to disagree. They are not track cars. If they were, they wouldn't have the creature comforts and many of the safety items that are required for cars designed for the road. They are designed with racing inspired features and do well and are a boatload of fun on the track, but they are designed as road cars.

    I will agree, however, that you will not be able to make full use of their capabilities on the roads in this country, though in Montana you might be able to have some fun for about a hundred bucks. If you get caught!
    Well in Montana if you are driving down the freeway you won't have all that much fun or make use of most of their capabilities since it is just a straight line anyway You can have more fun and obey the posted speed limit in many many places if you get on twisty roads. Of course one could still be charged with reckless driving.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbat View Post
    Looks like something out of a lame 1970s clint eastwood movie..right turn clyde

    Can imagine the roll going round a corner on a car like that and the mpg...scrap it rofl

    Edit...multiply the roll by a factor of 20 after 150 mg of alchohol
    I'm pretty sure the original designers were drunk as well as most of the buyers!

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I'm pretty sure the original designers were drunk as well as most of the buyers!
    Elwood Engel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    That's sad. Can't say I'd even want one then.
    The new flappy-flap tiptronics are actually quite nice. And quicker than a stick-style shifter.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by stencil View Post
    The new flappy-flap tiptronics are actually quite nice. And quicker than a stick-style shifter.
    Call me old school, but I just like a clutch.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Call me old school, but I just like a clutch.
    I used to say that....

    ...but since I got my M3 clutchless flappy paddle gearbox track car. Yes it sees the track pretty often. Without a clutch, the left foot can take over braking - and that opens up a whole new world of control.

    -S

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibiwan View Post
    I used to say that....

    ...but since I got my M3 clutchless flappy paddle gearbox track car. Yes it sees the track pretty often. Without a clutch, the left foot can take over braking - and that opens up a whole new world of control.

    -S
    What he said.

    Remember when you said you'd never give up your XT thumbshifters (maybe I'm aging myself here, but some might get this reference)?

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by stencil View Post
    What he said.

    Remember when you said you'd never give up your XT thumbshifters (maybe I'm aging myself here, but some might get this reference)?
    I haven't had a shifter on a bike in 20 years, but I get your drift. I do sometimes "speed shift" my Subaru without a clutch - so I can tell it would be very fast. I can go through the gears pretty fast that way.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    That's sad. Can't say I'd even want one then.
    They're doing away with manuals because the clutch-less transmissions result in faster cars.

    I believe Ferrari has done away with clutches as of this year. I believe Lambo is to follow.

    I myself prefer shifting BUT recognize the clutch-less cars are indeed faster.

    What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Nobody cares...........

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    2 years ago I was loading up after a ride in the fabulous Frederick MD watershed. A giant custom touring van , like the kind that National Car Renal uses to shuttle people to and from the airport to the rental lot, pulls up to the Yellow Trail trail head on Gambrill Park road. Inside was all custom decked out with flat screen high def, window tint, microbrew mini-keg tap, leather and stainless, the whole enchilada. On back was a trailer, inside trailer over a half dozen premium trail bikes, several brands. All carbon. Four Asian dudes maybe 25 y/o in the van, one guy says , "Our buddy is rich and so we just drive around the USA from Cali to Maine riding all the great stuff we can. We move east and north through the Summer after riding all Winter and Spring and in Arizona, Utah, and Colorado. "

    Serious. They were pretty good riders, too.
    Instead of male friends, I would hire a female "assistant".

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas_martel View Post
    What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Traction control makes worse drivers able to drive more quickly or more safely. So it is sort of a wash. The first car I ever drove with flappy shifters and traction control I pushed extremely hard and man it really worked well. Whether it is a good idea (safety? speed? whatever the goal) or not just depends on a whole lot of other factors.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas_martel View Post
    What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Does he grasp the concept of spinning tires not actually moving the car while those that aren't spinning are actually getting down to the business of moving the car across the ground?

    You may actually have to consider yourself a failure as a parent if your kid thinks tires going round and round without actually going anywhere is faster than tires going round and round and moving the car!

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas_martel View Post
    What does everyone think about traction control?
    They are great for bad weather conditions. Of it's dry, it just depends on the system and the available settings.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Does he grasp the concept of spinning tires not actually moving the car while those that aren't spinning are actually getting down to the business of moving the car across the ground?

    You may actually have to consider yourself a failure as a parent if your kid thinks tires going round and round without actually going anywhere is faster than tires going round and round and moving the car!
    A performance car is ruined by traction control. It's often overly intrusive and sometimes dangerous, reducing wheelspin abruptly by basically taking over the throttle, closing it almost completely and then feeding it back slowly. There is no doubt this can be dangerous to spring on a driver who is expecting full power. I've seen it done well, but as soon as you start modifying a car for more power, the traction/stability program doesn't usually keep up. The programs are also often confused by bumpy roads, where there is a brief loss of traction but only due to an uneven road surface. 'Excuse me driver, I'll take over now'. No thanks.

    A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas_martel View Post
    ...

    What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    If I had a kid that dumb, I wouldn't let him pilot a 2-ton cage

    Driving a vehicle is SERIOUS bizzness, and no one (hardly) takes it as such.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousgibbon View Post
    A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.
    It isn't quite that simple since traction control allows individual wheels to have the brakes applied and a driver cannot do that. A driver can bias the weight of the vehicle to give more traction to a given wheel, but that is not the same thing.

  30. #230
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    Such an expensive car, and such a cheap bike rack. What's wrong with this picture.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Traction control makes worse drivers able to drive more quickly or more safely. So it is sort of a wash. The first car I ever drove with flappy shifters and traction control I pushed extremely hard and man it really worked well. Whether it is a good idea (safety? speed? whatever the goal) or not just depends on a whole lot of other factors.
    On modern cars, it works pretty well. On some of my previous cars, it was kind of poor, especially when you'd reach the limits. Now, the darn thing is pretty good at keeping me going in a straight line. I can disable it, push some buttons, there's the TC, then there's the SC, and some other features too, but while engaged, you are able to go quite fast and maintain control. Some of these cars will "bite you" real fast with it off. Despite what Pete says in this thread, not everyone has had the race-car training in tail-happy cars that he has, it's a good idea in most modern cars to keep it on, and only a few seem to suffer greatly these days under any realistic condition. Keep in mind that most systems won't let you "burn em up" from a standstill unless you attempt to overpower it with high RPM and dropping the clutch. These can be real bad when done by the inexperienced drivers. Even with done without the TC it can still be bad. At the least, it really depends on the car. With many modern cars, turning it off doesn't get you much more performance or handling ability. With some people, it's more about the excitement and mastery that comes with it, rather than it being any faster, in fact for some drivers and situations it will be slower to have it off. It all depends on the car and system, but they are better these days.

    They are doing some amazing things with Ferraris and others with the electronic systems at the limit these days. It's not the same system it was 15 years ago.

    It gets tiring listening to people ask me to "light them up". You are right that people equate "going fast" with "spinning the wheels". When those people spring for the $1500 to buy new tires, I'll let em up all day long.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  32. #232
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    Turn the traction control off on a ZO6 with street tires and see how long you stay on track.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousgibbon View Post
    A performance car is ruined by traction control. It's often overly intrusive and sometimes dangerous, reducing wheelspin abruptly by basically taking over the throttle, closing it almost completely and then feeding it back slowly. There is no doubt this can be dangerous to spring on a driver who is expecting full power. I've seen it done well, but as soon as you start modifying a car for more power, the traction/stability program doesn't usually keep up. The programs are also often confused by bumpy roads, where there is a brief loss of traction but only due to an uneven road surface. 'Excuse me driver, I'll take over now'. No thanks.

    A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.
    That may all be true, but it's still a basic principle that if the tire is spinning, it's lost friction which means its lost its ability to propel the car, stop the car or steer the car as effectively as a non-spinning, rolling tire.

    Whether you do it manually or computer assisted, spinning tires do not equal speed.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowardly incoherent nobody
    enough of your slavish worship of the wealthy dude. it's pathetic.
    Perhaps you should refrain from posting or repping when you're drunk. That way, at least your pathetic attempt to insult might make even the slightest sense and have a passing relevancy to the post you decided to negative rep.

    I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on being drunk... if you're sober, well, that would just be sad.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    That may all be true, but it's still a basic principle that if the tire is spinning, it's lost friction which means its lost its ability to propel the car, stop the car or steer the car as effectively as a non-spinning, rolling tire.

    Whether you do it manually or computer assisted, spinning tires do not equal speed.
    However they also equal a stable coefficient of friction. I know people that purposefully make their tires slide in curves that way they don't break lose unexpectedly and lose traction. So they are giving up some traction for consistency.

  36. #236
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    Rich people don't talk about this shiz.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    However they also equal a stable coefficient of friction. I know people that purposefully make their tires slide in curves that way they don't break lose unexpectedly and lose traction. So they are giving up some traction for consistency.
    True... but you still have to admit that that's a "controlled uncontrolled" maneuver. Because again, tires that are slipping or spinning are not gripping the road. The sliding curve is using momentum with whatever friction may be left to guide the vehicle through the corner, but the driver must be able to stop the sliding at will or risk going off the course, wouldn't you agree?

    And I think chas's son is talking about off the line tire squealing (vs not advanced handling techniques) equating to speed where spinning the tires means the car is, well... spinning its wheels but not going anywhere! Much like a recent negative repper!

  38. #238
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    A Ferrari California at the trailhead






  39. #239
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    ^^^I wonder what the friction coefficient of the tires is.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Turn the traction control off on a ZO6 with street tires and see how long you stay on track.
    A C6 Z06 is not a super high power car. It is geared well, 60mph in 1st. It runs 325s it isn't hard to lay down power in it. If you can't stay on track get a slower car.

    It's all about the driver. Most guys think they are awesome drivers. No track experience. They think a few back road runs makes them Zanardi. It's in our nature.

    Traction control works IMO well for regular driving conditions and most non driving folks.

    Racing or high HP cars is a different conversation.

    I peddle a 700whp car on measly 295's all the time. It's fun to spin around in 2nd, or 3rd when its cold out.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    ^^^I wonder what the friction coefficient of the tires is.
    μ=μk

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    1971 Dino * sweet ride

    Especially if you consider the ugliness of the 75 Dino.
    Is the Dino a show car or do you get to drive it?

    Seems there's is a lot of envy out there. Although the fact that you will be judged by your ride will never change. I saw an old guy with his trophy wife and Lambo convertible at the gas station one day. He was about 75 and had a terrible time squeezing into the passenger seat. She was a 40ish busty blonde and stalled the Lambo when she left the pump. Everyone had a good laugh at their expense but still wished that they could afford the Lambo!

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Miller View Post
    Especially if you consider the ugliness of the 75 Dino.
    Is the Dino a show car or do you get to drive it?

    Seems there's is a lot of envy out there. Although the fact that you will be judged by your ride will never change. I saw an old guy with his trophy wife and Lambo convertible at the gas station one day. He was about 75 and had a terrible time squeezing into the passenger seat. She was a 40ish busty blonde and stalled the Lambo when she left the pump. Everyone had a good laugh at their expense but still wished that they could afford the Lambo!
    i would imagine the dino is a show car unless you can get it to run long enough to drive it...

    and if we're going to talk bad assed cars and drivers, i'm throwing this in just for fun!

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7zhDKFhfEgg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousgibbon View Post
    A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.
    I've never owned a good car that didn't allow you to turn off traction control.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    True... but you still have to admit that that's a "controlled uncontrolled" maneuver. Because again, tires that are slipping or spinning are not gripping the road. The sliding curve is using momentum with whatever friction may be left to guide the vehicle through the corner, but the driver must be able to stop the sliding at will or risk going off the course, wouldn't you agree?

    And I think chas's son is talking about off the line tire squealing (vs not advanced handling techniques) equating to speed where spinning the tires means the car is, well... spinning its wheels but not going anywhere! Much like a recent negative repper!
    Yeah I was not suggesting spinning improves performance even in that case. Just that some people who actually don't want to crash their vehicle by driving right on the bitter edge of breaking loose purposefully try to break loose ahead of time and drift through the corner so that their control is consistent. I have certainly slid through my share of corners on gravel and it is quite predicable if you are sliding to begin with (especially in an AWD vehicle where you can power through).

  46. #246
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    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibiwan View Post

    Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.

    So much for vaporware. At least make it credible.....
    They're called inverted forks, and they've been made for decades.

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  48. #248
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    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.
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  49. #249
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  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made

    I know a person who you would call "rich" If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man
    Um, ok.
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  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.

    You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?

    Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made

  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?

    Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
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  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.
    That's total BS. All the 'rich' persons I know work their tails off, take risks, and EMPLOY other people. Geezus, this macro-jealousy of success needs to stop.

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  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
    That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse
    Saying "you didnt build that" is so much easier than actually going out and building it.
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  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?

    Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made
    You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

    Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.

    National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

    At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints.

    Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.

    Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.
    Here is a website discussing mobility.
    Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
    If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

    Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.



    Here is a website discussing mobility.
    Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
    If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.
    Changing the subject also doesnt prove your point. Your earlier post tried to argue that MOST rich people didnt earn it - and are therefore worthy of derision.

    Now you're arguing income mobility - not just over all, but from the very bottom. Sorry, different subject.
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  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Changing the subject also doesnt prove your point. Your earlier post tried to argue that MOST rich people didnt earn it - and are therefore worthy of derision.

    Now you're arguing income mobility - not just over all, but from the very bottom. Sorry, different subject.
    Where did I ever argue that rich people did not earn it? Could you please point that out for me? While you search fruitlessly consider this.

    41% of people now in the top quintile had parents in the top quintile. You can't have 84% of them self made when those are the actual statistics. You can pretend. They can pretend. They can tout how incredibly "self made" they are. But at a max 59% of them could have been partially self made and that is still being generous since some might have barely moved. This does not imply they are lazy, foolish, smart, hard working. They may be any of these things, but 41% of the wealthy had parents who were also wealthy.

  60. #260
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    I don't see how it makes any difference how people make it. If they have more then me, I say, good for them. It's not my business or anyone's business how someone has the amount of money that they have.

  61. #261
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    No matter how they got it, money doesn't buy happiness. Lots of unhappy rich people and many poor people are very happy.

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
    Don't you live in the bay area? This sounds like talking points from a flyover state politician. I live in one of the richest counties in the state (Marin) and often liberals are the rich.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

    Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.



    Here is a website discussing mobility.
    Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
    If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.
    None of that refutes what I posted, if we define successful as being a millionaire, but feel free to carry on. Stanley and Danko showed similar results.
    Last edited by BumpityBump; 12-09-2012 at 07:42 PM.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.
    Absolutely incorrect. Most millionares are self-made. Read "The Millionare Next Door." You just see the few who are high profile and "out there." Sure, the Kennedy's and their ilk get all the press but most rich people earned their money.

    I do very well and I earn mine every ****ing day.

    I also resent the notion that I had things handed to me. Where was President Obama when I was working 120 hours a week as the Senior Resident running the Intensive Care Unit of a major urban hospital for $2.15 an hour? Sitting on his rear in the Illinois State House doing nothing and living off the public which is the goal of the dependocracy.

    It's typical of the lazy and poor to envy others because it's easier then doing something to better themselves. Not everybody can be a millionare but almost anybody can improve their condition in life substantially with some self-discipline and hard work.

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Absolutely incorrect. Most millionares are self-made. Read "The Millionare Next Door." You just see the few who are high profile and "out there." Sure, the Kennedy's and their ilk get all the press but most rich people earned their money.

    I do very well and I earn mine every ****ing day.

    I also resent the notion that I had things handed to me. Where was President Obama when I was working 120 hours a week as the Senior Resident running the Intensive Care Unit of a major urban hospital for $2.15 an hour? Sitting on his rear in the Illinois State House doing nothing and living off the public which is the goal of the dependocracy.

    It's typical of the lazy and poor to envy others because it's easier then doing something to better themselves. Not everybody can be a millionare but almost anybody can improve their condition in life substantially with some self-discipline and hard work.
    Yes, Obama is lazy.

    This is all getting ridiculous. I remember now why I don't post here much anymore.

    Back to passion about cheap racks on expensive cars!

    Thank god ski season is here. Cut a nice load of wood today, and a Christmas tree, that's my kind of passion. Carry on folks, carry on....

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.

    So because your friend...gotcha

    You sound like a bitter hater.

  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumpityBump View Post
    Yes, Obama is lazy.
    Obama seems quite industrious to me, he's got a funny name, he's half black, a Muslim, and not even born in America and he still kicked the **** out of the best that rich white men could offer. Not too shabby. He's even rich for you rich envy folks out there.

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse
    Better than having a president that doesn't grant basic social liberties, but I digress - this is a no-politics forum.

    I neither hate on the rich as a group, nor offer any additional respect to them as a group. Those who didn't earn it deserve the same respect as those who don't have it. Judge people by their actions, not their bank accounts.

  69. #269
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    I'm a rich, self-made liberal who voted for Obama and supports Universal healthcare and higher taxes for my income group.

    Whatchoo gonna do now?

  70. #270
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    I live in Jackson Hole.


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  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

    It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.
    "And here's why liberals hate the rich."

    /facepalm....when i s the last time you have been in northern california? odds are that the owner of the bentley in my original post is probably as liberal as the day is long...

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by stencil View Post
    I'm a rich, self-made liberal who voted for Obama and supports Universal healthcare and higher taxes for my income group.

    Whatchoo gonna do now?
    Our government can't even do something as simple as get our mail from point A to point B without losing billions. What makes you think they can do something much more difficult as healthcare and not royally screw it up?

    Higher taxes? Our government wants higher taxes because of their waste and corruption. So, you want them to take more of our money out of the economy so they can also flush it down the toilet? When are you people going to learn, that with our government, it's never enough. How much of your money are you going to let them waste before you say: enough is enough?

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    "And here's why liberals hate the rich."

    /facepalm....when i s the last time you have been in northern california? odds are that the owner of the bentley in my original post is probably as liberal as the day is long...
    Yeah, sounds like someone's demonizing the liberals much more than the liberals allegedly demonize the rich. Hypocrisy at its best.

    Since it's not going away, here's the thing. Government's primary role is to protect the rights of its citizens. Involvement in the economy is always secondary to this. This is why Republican options as of late are not even options at all - I, along with anyone who believes in equal rights, was HUGELY relieved that Romney didn't take office and couldn't believe that so many supported him. I can't say I'm impressed either with how people's income tax is spent all of the time, but I think there are more fundamental issues with government structure, and the fact that most people in government are grossly overpaid.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Our government can't even do something as simple as get our mail from point A to point B without losing billions. What makes you think they can do something much more difficult as healthcare and not royally screw it up?

    Higher taxes? Our government wants higher taxes because of their waste and corruption. So, you want them to take more of our money out of the economy so they can also flush it down the toilet? When are you people going to learn, that with our government, it's never enough. How much of your money are you going to let them waste before you say: enough is enough?

    The us post office is a privately run arm of the government that is actually profitable. It starts making a loss when the lawmakers demand that it pays billions ($5.5 bil) to the federal government. Yes, those losses were created by the leeches in both houses.

    At least get your facts right before you spout this crap.

    http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/201...vice-woes?lite

    I'm not going to address the tax stuff you talk about.... that's complete BS especially with all the loopholes in the tax laws.....and I'm not going to help you understand how $100 matters much much more to a poor person than $5000 to a millionaire.

    -S

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  75. #275
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    Thou shalt not judge


    This passion thread has degraded into a rich versus poor.


    My passion is riding my Mongoose Blackcomb All Mountain dual suspension. I ride. And that's all I care for. Take after my example, for I exhibit great character and ethics.

  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by legking View Post
    This passion thread has degraded into a rich versus poor.
    Naw, not at all. It degraded into informed vs. mis-informed!

    Aaaaaand that's why MTBR doesn't want politics on its boards. I've lost a bunch of respect for users I otherwise would have never known differed fundamentally so much, nor cared. On the other hand, if we could get just a little bit of understanding of each side across...

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by legking View Post
    Thou shalt not judge

    Take after my example, for I exhibit great character and ethics.
    You're judging.

  78. #278
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    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    Yep. Should have painted the trailer to match the car.

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    The sacrilege is the $200 Walmart bike ...
    Pisgah Area SORBA

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostBoyScout View Post
    Since it's not going away, here's the thing. Government's primary role is to protect the rights of its citizens. Involvement in the economy is always secondary to this. This is why Republican options as of late are not even options at all - I, along with anyone who believes in equal rights, was HUGELY relieved that Romney didn't take office and couldn't believe that so many supported him. I can't say I'm impressed either with how people's income tax is spent all of the time, but I think there are more fundamental issues with government structure, and the fact that most people in government are grossly overpaid.
    Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.
    This is fairly true. You want to see grossly overpaid and often unqualified, just look to local and state government. I know worthless secretaries making well over a 100k in one bay area city, yet they laid off cops instead to cut the budget.

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.
    Thanks for the optimism, lol.

    I was thinking more on the municipal level. I'm actually Canadian (explains a lot!) but if it's anything like here, government workers are paid three times the minimum wage to cut grass and the like. Also with the benefits packages, landing a city gig is like winning the lotto. It should be comparable to other jobs IMO. Again I am assuming based on Canadian tendencies. This as mentioned doesn't fall under the President's umbrella but is tax dollar funded

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    No matter how they got it, money doesn't buy happiness.
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    Safe' perhaps... but there's not much about that car that would fall anywhere near the definition of "stealth"!

    Enjoy and happy birthday!

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    You're gonna put a muddy mountain bike INSIDE your car? Get yourself a rack for riding days, sir. Trust me on this.

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    This is fairly true. You want to see grossly overpaid and often unqualified, just look to local and state government. I know worthless secretaries making well over a 100k in one bay area city, yet they laid off cops instead to cut the budget.
    Yes this is generally true, and I find it annoying when such employees are also lazy and do a bad job, but I don't mind paying people a livable wage for a job well done even if the job isn't super difficult to qualify for. The problem is that certain areas such as the bay area require ridiculous amounts of money to find a place to live and therefore a livable wage is far higher than elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostBoyScout View Post
    Thanks for the optimism, lol.

    I was thinking more on the municipal level. I'm actually Canadian (explains a lot!) but if it's anything like here, government workers are paid three times the minimum wage to cut grass and the like. Also with the benefits packages, landing a city gig is like winning the lotto. It should be comparable to other jobs IMO. Again I am assuming based on Canadian tendencies. This as mentioned doesn't fall under the President's umbrella but is tax dollar funded
    Even at the federal level as the education level of the employee declines they do better than their private sector counterparts, but as the education level increases they do worse. Basically wages are more even across the range which pulls the top down and the bottom up. I am not endorsing this or complaining, just commenting on it.


    @Hal that is a nice car and will be fun. However if I were to buy a toy someday I think I would tend toward something like the lotus elise. I have always been partial to them.

  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    You've got modest dreams and no doubt earned it. Enjoy!

  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



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    mmmm a GT3. I rather see it pulling a trailer (I see the track tires on the trailer and hopefully the rest of the owner's track kit is inside the box) than being a "trailer-queen" GT3 that is carried to and from the track with a trailer.

    I've always said "Daily driver is a state of mind.".....and all my track cars thus far have fit that description.

    WTF bike is that on it anyhoo? Looks like a cheapie.

  90. #290
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    Well this thread has gotten tremendously more interesting . . .
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    You've got modest dreams and no doubt earned it. Enjoy!
    Which pretty much is the trick if you ask me.
    Being content.

    At a relatively modest point, money does not really bring much to the table.
    Below that point, money makes a lot of difference.

    I saw an article not long ago, where the point was to see where more money does no longer increase the level of happiness.
    The exact number was differing a bit, depending where people are situated, but for most of the industrialized countries, it was around an annual income of 150,000$.
    I would have expected that number to be a bit higher, maybe like 200,000$.

    Personally though I would estimate the number to be much lower, like 50,000$.
    Nothing much changed in my life after I crossed that number.
    Having said that, part of the reason could be my lack of interest in cars, which seems to push the number upwards quite a bit.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post

    Personally though I would estimate the number to be much lower, like 50,000$.
    Nothing much changed in my life after I crossed that number.
    Having said that, part of the reason could be my lack of interest in cars, which seems to push the number upwards quite a bit.


    Magura
    I don't know. Sometime after I passed that number, I was able to pay off my debt and live debt free thereafter, including buying the car(s) I wanted, when I wanted. That was a pretty big change, and a very happy one, too.

    Well, OK, maybe not any car I wanted, but for the most part, anyway.

    At that $150K number, I might be able to consider buying my last, ultimate toy... an airplane.

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    Magura what study was that? I agee with your premise, but as I am curious about such things I would like to read up on it. Anyway I would think 80k myself as a cross over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stencil View Post
    You're gonna put a muddy mountain bike INSIDE your car? Get yourself a rack for riding days, sir. Trust me on this.
    I've got a friend that has a nice car Challenger SRT8 that fold down the back seats and remove the wheels place the bike on an old queen size comforter fold half over and place the wheels on top.

    no muss no fuss

    We also have my wife's Honda element that is our main bike transport vehicle therefore I highly doubt I'll be taking a GT500 on too many bike related adventures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I've got a friend that has a nice car Challenger SRT8 that fold down the back seats and remove the wheels place the bike on an old queen size comforter fold half over and place the wheels on top.

    no muss no fuss

    We also have my wife's Honda element that is our main bike transport vehicle therefore I highly doubt I'll be taking a GT500 on too many bike related adventures.
    Fairnuff. You must be a lot neater than I am, though. No matter what I do mud gets everywhere.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Magura what study was that? I agee with your premise, but as I am curious about such things I would like to read up on it. Anyway I would think 80k myself as a cross over.
    Here you go:

    The Perfect Income for Happiness? It's $161,000


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    I'll politely disagree...

    This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.

    Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.
    "Do not touch the trim"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.
    At least Ford was able to "invent" overhead cam engines ... some American companies are still working on that. Even 1975 VW rabbits had overhead cams and a cool skateboard like truck rear end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Thanks man. Unfortunately from what I can tell they basically asked a bunch of people "How much money do you need to be happy" and that was the answer they got.

    I would prefer if they attempted to see "how happy are you" and "oh by the way how much do you make?"

    Given the median income is lower basically most people were saying "I need more money than I have to be happy." At least it could be construed that way. And yes I realize measuring happiness is fraught with difficulty anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.
    That's like saying a hot chicks elbows are pointy...
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