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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So let me get this straight. If we tax the wealthy at 40%, they will have no motivation and drive to make any more money, to buy the same things (or more) than they had before...

    Yet...

    You expect that poor or middle class people will be inspired to make more money and increase their standard of living?

    This sounds like a double standard. What is so depressing and unmotivated about being rich? Why would you expect the lower and middle classes to "rise up" and not the rich? Even if the rich guy is taxed at 40%, if he increases his productivity, makes his business more successful, brings in more profit, he still gets to take home more pay.
    Tax rates were higher in the "go-go nineties" and the economy boomed like crazy and lifted all boats. Tax rates were much higher than even the 1990s during the 1950s and that era is generally regarded as the biggest and most widespread boom in American history.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Tax rates were higher in the "go-go nineties" and the economy boomed like crazy and lifted all boats. Tax rates were much higher than even the 1990s during the 1950s and that era is generally regarded as the biggest and most widespread boom in American history.

    The economy boomed in the mid 1980s when Reagan drastically lowered the marginal tax rates that had slowly increased to something like 70 percent in the top bracket. Before that was the golden age of loopholes and deductions and the so-called "three martini lunch" where everything was written off to try to reduce net income. Tax rates have been lower since then.

    As a point of historical interest, the concept of "benefits" with a job originated when marginal rates where so high that giving raises that put people into higher brackets was no longer an incentive and things like medical and dental, company cars, and other things that were deductible were.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So let me get this straight. If we tax the wealthy at 40%, they will have no motivation and drive to make any more money, to buy the same things (or more) than they had before...

    Yet...

    You expect that poor or middle class people will be inspired to make more money and increase their standard of living?

    This sounds like a double standard. What is so depressing and unmotivated about being rich? Why would you expect the lower and middle classes to "rise up" and not the rich? Even if the rich guy is taxed at 40%, if he increases his productivity, makes his business more successful, brings in more profit, he still gets to take home more pay.
    Whoa. Forty percent is high but not high enough to stop, for example, me from working. But let's suppose the marginal rates increase where, for example, everything over $250,000 is taxed at seventy or eighty percent. I'd think long and hard about working past $250,000. At some point free time and leisure are worth more than money. If I lived in Greece where my effective rate approached eighty percent I'd naturally decrease my own economic productivity (and this happens on a macroscopic level as well) to some point well below my capability to produce goods and services.

    In my case, this would mean you'd have to find somebody else to fill ER shifts from a shrinking pool of people willing to work for essentially nothing. In the case of a small business it would mean not expanding or hiring the extra employees. Naturally it is more complex than that but generally higher marginal rates lead to decreased productivity...and extreme maneuvers on the part of taxpayers to protect themselves from what becomes government predation.

    Keep in mind that the higher your income the less benefit you actually receive from Federal taxation. Schools, roads, fire, and police are mostly paid for by local and state taxes. Federal taxes currently are largely eaten by direct transfers of money, often time to malingerers and freeloaders. Medicaid, the federally subsidized welfare system, and disability programs are largely fraudulent. SSI disability is almost entirely a huge scam. I cannot tell you the number of young, fit, and otherwise healthy men drawing full disability fir "Bipolar, a fraudulent bad back, or drug addiction.

  4. #404
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    How or why this thread is still alive - and in the "Passion" forum is beyond me . . .
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    How or why this thread is still alive - and in the "Passion" forum is beyond me . . .
    Umm, because people like you and me keep posting? Just a thought!
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  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Umm, because people like you and me keep posting? Just a thought!
    back to the root...here's the second shot of the bentley i took that day:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rich people passion-dscn1299.jpg  


  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor. I showed you how high taxes really are for the wealthy and used Greece as a good example of the effect of out-of-control government spending and a high taxes on a nation. It is easy and convenient to blame the rich for everything but this is just misdirection from your ruling elite to deflect attention from the true catastrophe brewing for the entire Western world. You cannot enrich a nation by impoverishing the productive sector and eating the rich might be emotionally satisfying but what will you do after you confiscate everyones's wealth?

    The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody. Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make to what they perceive as a bunch of lazy freeloaders. Very few people will work from the goodness of their heart. I don't dislike my job, for example, but I wouldn't do it for ten percent of what I currently make. It would just not be worth all the hassles.

    Not paying taxes is illegal but when the tax rates rise to tyrannical levels it is not immoral and it is not stealing. We are supposed to be a people who have a government, not the other way around. The government is immoral and corrupt to the core as is everything and every institution it touches...which is practically everything. If you want to keep shoveling money into its gaping maw....well...what can I say.
    Well said! Then the government blames the people and take the people's rights away.
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  8. #408
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    "This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor."

    no. as the OP, i say that this thread is about rich people having enough passion for cycling that they strap cheap bike racks to their very expensive automobiles...and how i found it kind of amusing.

    nothing more, nothing less.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    "This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor."

    no. as the OP, i say that this thread is about rich people having enough passion for cycling that they strap cheap bike racks to their very expensive automobiles...and how i found it kind of amusing.

    nothing more, nothing less.
    Are you sure. For some odd reason that simple (and funny) picture has touched people deep down in their souls, and they must express their frustrations in this thread. Politics in a mountain bike forum. Never a good thing.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z4good View Post
    Are you sure. For some odd reason that simple (and funny) picture has touched people deep down in their souls, and they must express their frustrations in this thread. Politics in a mountain bike forum. Never a good thing.
    HA!!! well said!

    but the original intent was not political.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor. I showed you how high taxes really are for the wealthy and used Greece as a good example of the effect of out-of-control government spending and a high taxes on a nation. It is easy and convenient to blame the rich for everything but this is just misdirection from your ruling elite to deflect attention from the true catastrophe brewing for the entire Western world. You cannot enrich a nation by impoverishing the productive sector and eating the rich might be emotionally satisfying but what will you do after you confiscate everyones's wealth?

    The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody. Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make to what they perceive as a bunch of lazy freeloaders. Very few people will work from the goodness of their heart. I don't dislike my job, for example, but I wouldn't do it for ten percent of what I currently make. It would just not be worth all the hassles.

    Not paying taxes is illegal but when the tax rates rise to tyrannical levels it is not immoral and it is not stealing. We are supposed to be a people who have a government, not the other way around. The government is immoral and corrupt to the core as is everything and every institution it touches...which is practically everything. If you want to keep shoveling money into its gaping maw....well...what can I say.


    I follow with great interest this topic. I work a lot and I pay a lot of taxes and I am interested in understanding what happens in other countries. I live in Italy and France, they are very similar countries about benefits and disadvantages.
    You have written many important things, but I add something.
    When you write "Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make ..." you have to remember that a job is necessary, it is not a hobby ... And most people can not live without. Me too.
    I believe that in every state the public sector, of course is important, but there are high risks of corruption and inefficiency.
    You use Greece as an example. I can say something about France and Italy, than I will say something about your country of origin.
    The current crisis is unprecedented in Italy but luxury is performed as it had never happened. Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche etc are becoming increasingly common. In Switzerland they do not know where to put the money of the Italians ...
    The very rich French people escape in Belgium but in Florence the Jaguar and Bentley cars are more numerous than in Paris, but Florence is a small city!
    What has happened? It happened that something is broken in the mechanism that regulates the life and relations between state and citizens. A certain type of people get rich easily, another type of people are afraid of the future... You know what I mean.
    The institutions do not function properly, they always want more money to offer less and less services.
    Companies do not grow, do not work properly.
    The money or disappear into the pockets of the state or in other countries. So everyone is next to the risk of becoming poor. Very poor.
    Lastly a small personal memoir about Greece, twenty years ago I think about.
    I remember that I was astonished by the amount of Mercedes I saw in the streets. I never understood where the trick was.

    * I apologize for my basic English
    Last edited by toscano; 12-16-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by toscano View Post
    When you write "Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make ..." you have to remember that a job is necessary, it is not a hobby ... And most people can not live without.
    Not in America. Here, if you are a lazy ass you can do nothing and suck off the people who do work hard and make money. If it wasn't for runaway welfare, we would be in pretty good shape.

    Welfare State Grows by Nearly 19% Under Obama
    Last edited by Mountain Cycle Shawn; 12-15-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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  13. #413
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  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?
    I would love to beat run this car. Anybody else think that sounds like a good idea? On the plus side, I think I could toss my 29er in the trunk and not even remove the front wheel!

  15. #415
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    Life is too short to talk about politics
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  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerfectZero View Post
    Life is too short to talk about politics
    Life is to short not to talk about it!
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  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Life is to short not to talk about it!
    You have hijacked the thread long enough now.
    The OP even requested the thread get back on topic, but no one seems to respect his wishes.
    Put simply... CAR & BIKE PICS or GTFO!

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    You have hijacked the thread long enough now.
    The OP even requested the thread get back on topic, but no one seems to respect his wishes.
    Put simply... CAR & BIKE PICS or GTFO!
    Someone got their panties in a bind! Lol!
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  19. #419
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    Last edited by SV11; 12-15-2012 at 10:29 PM.

  20. #420
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    I still find it a bit interesting that you would ever want to strap a bike to a supercar. It makes more sense to me that if you have that kind of money you would be able to use a vehicle fit for the job better. That said, I think that those suction cup racks are probably the way to go if you're driving a lamborghini...
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  21. #421
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    I think the suction cups are a great idea if you want a portable minimalist look, for any car.

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Someone got their panties in a bind! Lol!
    ....
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  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I think the suction cups are a great idea if you want a portable minimalist look, for any car.
    The Seasuckers are great. A little expensive though. They might have to impose a fee on us so the poor can afford them. The Seasucker Welfare Program.
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  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by toscano View Post
    I follow with great interest this topic. I work a lot and I pay a lot of taxes and I am interested in understanding what happens in other countries. I live in Italy and France, they are very similar countries about benefits and disadvantages.
    You have written many important things, but I add something.
    When you write "Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make ..." you have to remember that a job is necessary, it is not a hobby ... And most people can not live without. Me too.
    I believe that in every state the public sector, of course is important, but there are high risks of corruption and inefficiency.
    You use Greece as an example. I can say something about France and Italy, than I will say something about your country of origin.
    The current crisis is unprecedented in Italy but luxury is performed as it had never happened. Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche etc are becoming increasingly common. In Switzerland they do not know where to put the money of the Italians ...
    The very rich French people escape in Belgium but in Florence the Jaguar and Bentley cars are more numerous than in Paris, but Florence is a small city!
    What has happened? It happened that something is broken in the mechanism that regulates the life and relations between state and citizens. A certain type of people get rich easily, another type of people are afraid of the future... You know what I mean.
    The institutions do not function properly, they always want more money to offer less and less services.
    Companies do not grow, do not work properly.
    The money or disappear into the pockets of the state or in other countries. So everyone is next to the risk of becoming poor. Very poor.
    Lastly a small personal memoir about Greece, twenty years ago I think about.
    I remember that I was astonished by the amount of Mercedes I saw in the streets. I never understood where the trick was.

    * I apologize for my basic English
    The Greeks know, or used to know, how to live despite the government and have always been able to prosper even in the face of ruinous taxation. Generally, Greece used to be a largely cash economy where a lot of the economic activity could be easily hidden. Unfortunately after 20 years of unrelenting socialism they have become no different than the majority of Europeans, completely helpless and trapped in no-productivity activities. my cousin has been in university for years pursuing a graduate degree at taxpayers expense that will gain her nothing and the pursuit of which is a means to stay out of the job market.

    She took part in the anti-austerity protests (which are pro-goverment, not anti-goverment as they are mistakingly labeled) vigorously, is a committed communist, and is suited for exactly nothing except a make-believe job.

    This is typical and for the first time since the Germans invaded seventy years ago, there are Greeks standing in soup lines. It is not the fault of the rich.

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    The Greeks know, or used to know, how to live despite the government and have always been able to prosper even in the face of ruinous taxation. Generally, Greece used to be a largely cash economy where a lot of the economic activity could be easily hidden. Unfortunately after 20 years of unrelenting socialism they have become no different than the majority of Europeans, completely helpless and trapped in no-productivity activities. my cousin has been in university for years pursuing a graduate degree at taxpayers expense that will gain her nothing and the pursuit of which is a means to stay out of the job market.

    She took part in the anti-austerity protests (which are pro-goverment, not anti-goverment as they are mistakingly labeled) vigorously, is a committed communist, and is suited for exactly nothing except a make-believe job.

    This is typical and for the first time since the Germans invaded seventy years ago, there are Greeks standing in soup lines. It is not the fault of the rich.
    And the USA is about 5 years behind.
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