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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Here is the deficit as a percent of GDP over time.

    Care to explain how they could not pay it if they confiscated everything from everyone? That was the assertion from our resident expert. Let me see 12% of divide by 1 carry the 2... yep 12% is less than 100% and less than 60% remaining after the current taxes are taken. So that destroys the argument that they could not pay their current account deficit. It might be a bad idea but it is ignorant to claim they could not finance their deficit since they have 5x the necessary productivity in 1 year let alone whatever wealth is accumulated.

    Now onto tax evasion.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/bu...sion.html?_r=0


    Ouch seems like it would be handy for the government if people were paying those taxes after all that 65 percent of the countries economic output would come in pretty handy.

    Tax evasion and corruption in Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    49% of the populace is evading taxes? Hmmm I guess it isn't a problem though all governments should be so lucky.

    How Greek tax evasion helped sink the global economy


    So the Wall Street Journal that liberal rag said half the countries budget shortfall in 2008 was b/c of tax evasion. Nah they must be crazy
    b/c we all know it isn't a problem. Somebody said so.
    The top marginal rate for a Greek is 45 percent. If he's self-employed he has to kick in 28 percent for the Greek equivalent of Social Security. The top rate starts at 100,000 Euros or about $150,000 per year. Capital gains are taxed at the household rate so a typical "wealthy" Greek is looking at close to 80 percent effective tax. This doesn't count the Value Added Tax or property tax. If a wealthy Greek paid all the taxes he owed he'd give it all of his income to the government.

    Property tax itself is a particularly sore spot for many propertied Greeks. My mother's property tax bill is way out of proportion to the current value of her property. In the states at least my property tax went down when the appraised value of the albatross of a house my ex and I own collapsed.

    Does this kind of explain why tax evasion is so popular among wealthy Greek? Would you surrender 80-90 percent of your income in exchange for some crappy benefits that you don't need?

    I believe that Greece has one of the highest Effective Tax Rates in the world. You can't get blood from a stone.

    Let me reiterate that in Greece the so-called "wealthy" if they are squeaky clean and honest you will pay more than 80 percent of their income to taxes. Would you slave away at your business if you were only allowed a pittance for your efforts? That kind of taxation is tyranny. We're not talking about a reasonable tax rate of 15 percent or something that is both bearable and understandable.

    Additionally, the public services in Greece are abysmal (well, non-existant now). The public hospitals, for example, are so bad that the wealthy who cannot quite afford to have their relatives treated at private hospitals hire a private nurse to watch over the patient because neglect is the rule, not the exception in the Greek public health system. This is because the majority of tax revenue in Greece goes to supporting the salaries and benefits of the vast legion of public servants, not to services, and these salaries and benefits are lavish. Greek civil servants...and who isn't in Greece...are paid, for example, for fourteen months of work every year. Talk about math not adding up.

    The purpose of government according to our founding fathers is to secure the inalienable rights of the people to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not to confiscate from some to give to others to buy votes.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 12-14-2012 at 02:33 PM.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post

    Would you surrender 80 percent of your income in exchange for some crappy benefits that you don't need?
    If you add up all the taxes, fees, whatever they want to call it, that we pay. You come to realize that is what is happening right here in the U.S.A.!
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  3. #378
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  4. #379
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    ^ With a Cannonbroke, I mean Cannondale on it? OMG!
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  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    The top marginal rate for a Greek is 45 percent. If he's self-employed he has to kick in 28 percent for the Greek equivalent of Social Security. The top rate starts at 100,000 Euros or about $150,000 per year. Capital gains are taxed at the household rate so a typical "wealthy" Greek is looking at close to 80 percent effective tax. This doesn't count the Value Added Tax or property tax. If a wealthy Greek paid all the taxes he owed he'd give it all of his income to the government.
    The links I posted already said the tax burden for the average Greek is 40%. It would be super if you included some citations for your assertions. I do not doubt you are relating what you happen to have heard or been familiar with, but that doesn't make it accurate for the country as a whole. BTW tax evasion was popular amongst many different classes of Greeks. Check the WaPo link it shows a map of evasion by political unit in the country. It isn't just the rich. The rich can just do a better job in certain ways than the average person. I really don't think you are correct still.

    Greek tax reform bill to tax capital gains on shares | Reuters
    Based on the draft legislation submitted to parliament, Greece will raise the tax rate on corporate profits to 26 percent from 20 percent but lower the tax on distributed dividends to 10 percent from 25 percent currently.

    Capital gains from stock trading on the Athens stock exchange will be subject to a 20 percent tax from April next year, while interest income from bank deposits will be taxed by a higher 15 percent rate versus 10 percent currently.
    It doesn't say they tax it at household rate, and previously capital gains were taxed at a lower rate. I don't know where you are getting all this information, but you can do better.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    The links I posted already said the tax burden for the average Greek is 40%. It would be super if you included some citations for your assertions. I do not doubt you are relating what you happen to have heard or been familiar with, but that doesn't make it accurate for the country as a whole. BTW tax evasion was popular amongst many different classes of Greeks. Check the WaPo link it shows a map of evasion by political unit in the country. It isn't just the rich. The rich can just do a better job in certain ways than the average person. I really don't think you are correct still.

    Greek tax reform bill to tax capital gains on shares | Reuters


    It doesn't say they tax it at household rate, and previously capital gains were taxed at a lower rate. I don't know where you are getting all this information, but you can do better.
    That's the tax burden on the middle class. Greeks who make more than 100,000 Euros are taxed at 45 percent on everything over this and at a progressive rate for everything up to this with only, I believe, the first 12,000 Euros being exempt from taxation. This thread is about the wealthy, not the poor and middle class.

    Greece Income Taxes and Tax Laws 2012 - WorldWide-Tax.com

    Don't forget that on top of income tax you have to pay into their version Social Security. The average middle class Greek household probably pays 30 percent of their income to income taxes plus 16 percent for "Social Security" plus the 28 percent kicked in by their employer for "Social Security" which is money he can't pay them and the same as a tax on their income making the effective tax rate for even the middle class somewhere in the seventy percent range...if they pay it which most don't thanks to the black market and cash economy.

    You'd be stupid to not cheat on taxes in Greece. Literally you will be working for a quarter of what you actually make to pay rent, buy a car, eat, and have some recreation.

    I have some friends over there who owe more in taxes than they actually make due to some strange loopholes in the law. What you have to understand is that at a certain tax rate, if enforced, economic activity comes to a standstill. That rate is debatable of course but if I were taxed at 100 percent of my income I'd quit work and ride mountain bikes all day, maybe bartering my services here or there for food and parts.

    You do not want me doing this. Trust me.

    And naturally there is an optimum tax rate that maximizes revenue to the State that is somewhere between zero and a hundred percent...but probably much closer to the zero side. What Western governments are doing, figuratively, is killing the golden goose...trying to solve a long term problem with the short-term expedience of raising taxes to unsustainable levels. And to do it they play you like a puppet directing your anger at the "rich" instead of the themselves who got you into this mess in the first place. Greece was in much better shape back in the early 1980s before the socialist took over. It hurts me to see how run-down Athens has become.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 12-14-2012 at 04:36 PM.

  7. #382
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    Ok so it says you were wrong about capital gains taxes which are lower far lower than you claimed. When I say average what I mean is average. I don't mean what the highest income earners are paying b/c I don't care. Lots of people are evading taxes from all tax brackets. It is not a valid excuse that you don't like to pay taxes so you should not have to. If people actually paid their taxes they could lower rates. When you have groups who evade their taxes they are effectively stealing from those that do pay the legally required amount. I am not talking about what the best tax rate is, or what the moral tax rate is, or what the progressive/regressive nature should be. I am saying those that are evading taxes are wrong because they are stealing from those that follow the law. They can vote for politicians that deliver lower taxes. It is a pretty easy thing to sell the electorate. "Elect me and I will lower taxes." It goes over well.

    Why would I care if you quit work and rode mountain bikes? I don't see how it would bother me at all. I hope you do so then you won't have to be sad about your 12 hour shifts.

    Anyway I will argue more later right now I am annoyed by that bastard in CT who shot all those kids and don't want to worry about someone being wrong on the internet.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2000Z3M View Post
    union? whats that? I military, I just do the job that needs to get done. Keep in mind, I have also done 16-20 hour shifts every day for 4 months when I have deployed.
    You didn't make the comment about the 12hr shifts, so I'm not sure why you replied to my post that was addressing that.

    I did the military too. In fact, it was amazing how "fairly" I was treated much of the time, compared to my non-union experience. And of course, when I got out of the military, I took my entitlements of college fund, GI bill, and other veterans benefits. For my years in school, I was "48%-ing" it I guess...

    And then later, when I was just starting out at my job that paid quite a ways below what all the certificates and schooling would indicate, I worked my rear end off trying to earn as much as possible, but still less than 30k the first year, and less than 40k the 2nd and 3rd. I guess I was an a$$hole for earning so little money and "dragging the country down". What was I thinking?

    My original post was trying to address how medical personnel (nurses, doctors, etc) are abused in terms of work rules. I don't trust a doctor or nurse that's been working for 20hrs or longer, and that we have those things going on is just sick. Even the 12hr shifts end on end without proper rest cycles for circadian rhythms.

    In any case, the GOP needs to figure out a different way to save the country, rather than blaming it all on the poor...
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  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You didn't make the comment about the 12hr shifts, so I'm not sure why you replied to my post that was addressing that.

    I did the military too. In fact, it was amazing how "fairly" I was treated much of the time, compared to my non-union experience. And of course, when I got out of the military, I took my entitlements of college fund, GI bill, and other veterans benefits. For my years in school, I was "48%-ing" it I guess...

    And then later, when I was just starting out at my job that paid quite a ways below what all the certificates and schooling would indicate, I worked my rear end off trying to earn as much as possible, but still less than 30k the first year, and less than 40k the 2nd and 3rd. I guess I was an a$$hole for earning so little money and "dragging the country down". What was I thinking?

    My original post was trying to address how medical personnel (nurses, doctors, etc) are abused in terms of work rules. I don't trust a doctor or nurse that's been working for 20hrs or longer, and that we have those things going on is just sick. Even the 12hr shifts end on end without proper rest cycles for circadian rhythms.

    In any case, the GOP needs to figure out a different way to save the country, rather than blaming it all on the poor...
    the railroads makes crew STOP right there and then when their hours reach either 12 or 16 in a day. i've seen a train stop right in the middle of a crossing until the crew van got there twenty minutes later...Railroad Crews

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Ok so it says you were wrong about capital gains taxes which are lower far lower than you claimed. When I say average what I mean is average. I don't mean what the highest income earners are paying b/c I don't care. Lots of people are evading taxes from all tax brackets. It is not a valid excuse that you don't like to pay taxes so you should not have to. If people actually paid their taxes they could lower rates. When you have groups who evade their taxes they are effectively stealing from those that do pay the legally required amount. I am not talking about what the best tax rate is, or what the moral tax rate is, or what the progressive/regressive nature should be. I am saying those that are evading taxes are wrong because they are stealing from those that follow the law. They can vote for politicians that deliver lower taxes. It is a pretty easy thing to sell the electorate. "Elect me and I will lower taxes." It goes over well.

    Why would I care if you quit work and rode mountain bikes? I don't see how it would bother me at all. I hope you do so then you won't have to be sad about your 12 hour shifts.

    Anyway I will argue more later right now I am annoyed by that bastard in CT who shot all those kids and don't want to worry about someone being wrong on the internet.
    Annoyed? I'm devastated!

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    the railroads makes crew STOP right there and then when their hours reach either 12 or 16 in a day. i've seen a train stop right in the middle of a crossing until the crew van got there twenty minutes later...Railroad Crews
    Wait, the "railroads" or the "alaska railroads"?, your link is to the railroads in my state, which are effectively cut-off from the rest of the US without the kind of traffic demands and complexity, although I'd imagine they have the system pretty well figured out in the lower 48, just that they don't stop and rest when they reach the end of their day, as it's all though out a bit better.

    The reason we got paid in the military no matter if we worked a lot or a little was that they could push us to perform a mission if necessary. That's the sacrifice you make in that lifestyle, and it's accepted, and your individual life is not as important as accomplishing the mission. In the civilian world, if you die, you don't get to accomplish any of your missions, as well as if you mess up because you are tired on shift, you make other people suffer. We also work hard to get jobs where you don't have to work two jobs at once or 12hr shifts just to break even.
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  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    In any case, the GOP needs to figure out a different way to save the country, rather than blaming it all on the poor...
    Well, technically, the Dems need to figure it out right now, since they control the White House and Senate, so right now, it's their show. That's just the way it works.
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  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Well, technically, the Dems need to figure it out right now, since they control the White House and Senate, so right now, it's their show. That's just the way it works.
    i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work together to solve the nation's problems, regardless of which holds the majority.

    now back to relevant subjects:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work together to solve the nation's problems, regardless of which holds the majority.

    now back to relevant subjects:
    rep
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work together to solve the nation's problems, regardless of which holds the majority.

    now back to relevant subjects:
    Dang... cant rep you again.

    Then again the mission of politician these days is trying to keep their jobs. Have you looked at the job market out there? heh

    -S

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Wait, the "railroads" or the "alaska railroads"?, your link is to the railroads in my state, which are effectively cut-off from the rest of the US without the kind of traffic demands and complexity, although I'd imagine they have the system pretty well figured out in the lower 48, just that they don't stop and rest when they reach the end of their day, as it's all though out a bit better.

    The reason we got paid in the military no matter if we worked a lot or a little was that they could push us to perform a mission if necessary. That's the sacrifice you make in that lifestyle, and it's accepted, and your individual life is not as important as accomplishing the mission. In the civilian world, if you die, you don't get to accomplish any of your missions, as well as if you mess up because you are tired on shift, you make other people suffer. We also work hard to get jobs where you don't have to work two jobs at once or 12hr shifts just to break even.
    oops...sorry...it's an FRA requirement. the industry term is "dead on time". 12 hours on the train.

    looking for a link with specifics, here's what i have for now:

    Tell Me about Life for the Crew of a Modern Freight Train [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

  17. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibiwan View Post
    Dang... cant rep you again.

    Then again the mission of politician these days is trying to keep their jobs. Have you looked at the job market out there? heh

    -S
    why do you think i spend so much time on MTBR? lord only knows i need a job and SOON. at least i'm getting interviews...

    here's another link about 12 hour days on the railroad for those who want it:

    When Does A Train Crew's Time Actually Start?

  18. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    rep
    you negged me by mistake...

    but it won't kill me...

  19. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    why do you think i spend so much time on MTBR? lord only knows i need a job and SOON. at least i'm getting interviews...

    here's another link about 12 hour days on the railroad for those who want it:

    When Does A Train Crew's Time Actually Start?
    The market is picking up slowly though. I'm moving my company into a proper shop starting Jan 1 and we need to hire 3rd shift operators pretty soon.

    Living in the Bay Area adds up quickly (I used to live in Fremont on the north side of the 84)... hang in there - we'll keep our fingers crossed for you. If ever you decide to head out my way, give me a shout.

    -S

  20. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibiwan View Post
    The market is picking up slowly though. I'm moving my company into a proper shop starting Jan 1 and we need to hire 3rd shift operators pretty soon.

    Living in the Bay Area adds up quickly (I used to live in Fremont on the north side of the 84)... hang in there - we'll keep our fingers crossed for you. If ever you decide to head out my way, give me a shout.

    -S
    where in the bay area?

  21. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    you negged me by mistake...

    but it won't kill me...
    are you serious?!
    sorry man
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  22. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Ok so it says you were wrong about capital gains taxes which are lower far lower than you claimed. When I say average what I mean is average. I don't mean what the highest income earners are paying b/c I don't care. Lots of people are evading taxes from all tax brackets. It is not a valid excuse that you don't like to pay taxes so you should not have to. If people actually paid their taxes they could lower rates. When you have groups who evade their taxes they are effectively stealing from those that do pay the legally required amount. I am not talking about what the best tax rate is, or what the moral tax rate is, or what the progressive/regressive nature should be. I am saying those that are evading taxes are wrong because they are stealing from those that follow the law. They can vote for politicians that deliver lower taxes. It is a pretty easy thing to sell the electorate. "Elect me and I will lower taxes." It goes over well.

    Why would I care if you quit work and rode mountain bikes? I don't see how it would bother me at all. I hope you do so then you won't have to be sad about your 12 hour shifts.

    Anyway I will argue more later right now I am annoyed by that bastard in CT who shot all those kids and don't want to worry about someone being wrong on the internet.

    This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor. I showed you how high taxes really are for the wealthy and used Greece as a good example of the effect of out-of-control government spending and a high taxes on a nation. It is easy and convenient to blame the rich for everything but this is just misdirection from your ruling elite to deflect attention from the true catastrophe brewing for the entire Western world. You cannot enrich a nation by impoverishing the productive sector and eating the rich might be emotionally satisfying but what will you do after you confiscate everyones's wealth?

    The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody. Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make to what they perceive as a bunch of lazy freeloaders. Very few people will work from the goodness of their heart. I don't dislike my job, for example, but I wouldn't do it for ten percent of what I currently make. It would just not be worth all the hassles.

    Not paying taxes is illegal but when the tax rates rise to tyrannical levels it is not immoral and it is not stealing. We are supposed to be a people who have a government, not the other way around. The government is immoral and corrupt to the core as is everything and every institution it touches...which is practically everything. If you want to keep shoveling money into its gaping maw....well...what can I say.

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    Politics on a mountain bike forum. I think I'll go ride my bike.

  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work together to solve the nation's problems, regardless of which holds the majority.

    now back to relevant subjects:
    In an ideal world/system they are. And for many years, it did work that way. But the way our system has, er, evolved, the party in control is supposed to show enough leadership to inspire the other party to compromise to get things done.

    Like I said, that's just the way it works, unfortunately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody.
    So let me get this straight. If we tax the wealthy at 40%, they will have no motivation and drive to make any more money, to buy the same things (or more) than they had before...

    Yet...

    You expect that poor or middle class people will be inspired to make more money and increase their standard of living?

    This sounds like a double standard. What is so depressing and unmotivated about being rich? Why would you expect the lower and middle classes to "rise up" and not the rich? Even if the rich guy is taxed at 40%, if he increases his productivity, makes his business more successful, brings in more profit, he still gets to take home more pay.
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