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  1. #351
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    Why in the hell should people pay different amounts of tax? Why should it be tied to income? Most everyone on this thread has it all wrong, IMHumbleO.

    I say we take the amount of money the govt needs each year and divide it by the number of people over the age of 18, wham, that's how much each person over the age of 18 owes in taxes.

    Does anyone believe this would lead to properly focusing on spending?
    Nobody cares...........

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas_martel View Post
    Why in the hell should people pay different amounts of tax? Why should it be tied to income? Most everyone on this thread has it all wrong, IMHumbleO.

    I say we take the amount of money the govt needs each year and divide it by the number of people over the age of 18, wham, that's how much each person over the age of 18 owes in taxes.

    Does anyone believe this would lead to properly focusing on spending?
    *sigh*

    Math fail.

    If you only got $100 and the gub'mint takes $70, you have how much left over to live on?

    Another guy has $10,000 and pays the same amount of $70 in taxes. How much would he have left to spend on necessities?

    I sincerely hope you were being sarcastic......

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  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yeah, everything is the fault of the poor. It's because they are lazy that we are in this mess...

    I've worked all my life, and I'm finally getting into a good financial position. Working up through the levels, I've yet to find this huge mass of people who just doesn't want to work. I've found a few that have a difficult time holding 2 or 3 jobs to feed families, so I guess your solution is to just shoot them or something, but I fail to see how everything is the poor's fault. Have you ever actually paid 35% income tax?

    We are in this mess...and this includes Europe...because government policy has created a huge self-perpetuating dependocracy. A gigantic and permanent underclass that depend on the public dole. This is, as demonstrated by Greece, unsustainable because however well-intentioned the policy, the takers soon outnumber the makers and money can neither be printed nor borrowed indefinitely.

    As to taxes, I pay well above 35 percent. There are very few legitimate deductions for income earners these days so if you factor in Federal and state taxes as well as FICA the tax on top income earners is more like 45 percent. This is a lot of money but instead of thinking about it as just money consider that the first five hours of my grueling 12-hour shifts are to support bloated government programs that are massively fraudulent.

    Can you not see how corrupt and inefficient the public sector has become? It's one huge sucking bureaucratic maw into which your money is thrown to buy your vote by giving you freebies.

    And the worst thing about it is that when you kill the productive sector, it becomes increasingly more difficult to give money away. How much more tax exactly do you want me to pay and at what rate will I just quit working and go on welfare myself?

  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    We are in this mess...and this includes Europe...because government policy has created a huge self-perpetuating dependocracy. A gigantic and permanent underclass that depend on the public dole. This is, as demonstrated by Greece, unsustainable because however well-intentioned the policy, the takers soon outnumber the makers and money can neither be printed nor borrowed indefinitely.
    Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    We are in this mess...and this includes Europe...because government policy has created a huge self-perpetuating dependocracy. A gigantic and permanent underclass that depend on the public dole. This is, as demonstrated by Greece, unsustainable because however well-intentioned the policy, the takers soon outnumber the makers and money can neither be printed nor borrowed indefinitely.

    As to taxes, I pay well above 35 percent. There are very few legitimate deductions for income earners these days so if you factor in Federal and state taxes as well as FICA the tax on top income earners is more like 45 percent. This is a lot of money but instead of thinking about it as just money consider that the first five hours of my grueling 12-hour shifts are to support bloated government programs that are massively fraudulent.

    Can you not see how corrupt and inefficient the public sector has become? It's one huge sucking bureaucratic maw into which your money is thrown to buy your vote by giving you freebies.

    And the worst thing about it is that when you kill the productive sector, it becomes increasingly more difficult to give money away. How much more tax exactly do you want me to pay and at what rate will I just quit working and go on welfare myself?
    Simply perfect, but you are really lucky about your 35%, here it is more than 50%...

  6. #356
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    12hr shifts!?, you need a better union!
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    12hr shifts!?, you need a better union!
    union? whats that? I military, I just do the job that needs to get done. Keep in mind, I have also done 16-20 hour shifts every day for 4 months when I have deployed.

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.

    I was raised in Greece and my mother still live there. I follow the troubles there closely because I still own property there. The productive sector in Greece is small compared to the public sector where one out of three Greeks has (or had) a government job. Most of these jobs are of the paper shuffling variety much beloved of the socialist government that ruined Greece when they wre in power.

    Greeks who work in the public sector hardly work at all and most of the agricultural labor is done by Albanian immigrants. As for not paying taxes, if the typical Greek paid all of the taxes he was supposed to he would bankrupt himself. There is not enough wealth or money in Greece to pay their huge debt or finance their yearly deficit, even if you confiscated everything from everybody.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas_martel View Post
    Does anyone believe this would lead to properly focusing on spending?
    Everybody needs to have skin in the game, right? when half of voters don't pay income taxes, they tend to elect people who increase income taxes. i'm not saying your plan is right, but that everyone should pay some.

  10. #360
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    this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?
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  11. #361
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    Much cooler vehicles than an old caddy to transport yourself to the trail head








  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    12hr shifts!?, you need a better union!
    That's a whole other topic we could go to verbal war over. Today's unions have nothing to do with what they should.
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  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    Much cooler vehicles than an old caddy to transport yourself to the trail head







    vintage toyota land cruiser, hands down. but the caddy takes you there in comfort. as a matter of fact, i'll bet your could carry eight bikes on that car--four on the roof and four on a roof rack mounted to the trunk lid...make that ten bikes, 'cause you can probably squeeze two in the trunk...

    tough choice...

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?
    I'd go with the roof rack on the trunk lid. A hitch rack would push you over the overall length limit, and you'd have to get a commercial drivers license.

    HAL9000, out of yours, I like the Bronco best. Land Cruiser a close second. If you threw in an International Scout, I would have a very hard time deciding.

  15. #365
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    Bowler? Now that ought to get you to the trail head in style!


  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyWilliams View Post
    Bowler? Now that ought to get you to the trail head in style!

    Is that Burnt Orange? Nice!!

  17. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.
    And now you go shot down by the guy from Greece. Who needs to do their homework now?

  18. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I was raised in Greece and my mother still live there. I follow the troubles there closely because I still own property there. The productive sector in Greece is small compared to the public sector where one out of three Greeks has (or had) a government job. Most of these jobs are of the paper shuffling variety much beloved of the socialist government that ruined Greece when they wre in power.

    Greeks who work in the public sector hardly work at all and most of the agricultural labor is done by Albanian immigrants. As for not paying taxes, if the typical Greek paid all of the taxes he was supposed to he would bankrupt himself. There is not enough wealth or money in Greece to pay their huge debt or finance their yearly deficit, even if you confiscated everything from everybody.
    Oh wow... I haven't seen someone get owned like that in a long time!
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  19. #369
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    are youguys actually serious? You think that b/c someone is from a country that makes facts incorrect? You realize anecdotal evidence is well anecdotal? You are embarrassing yourselves.

    BBC News - Are Greeks the hardest workers in Europe?
    But the statistics suggest the country has not lost its way due to laziness. If you look at the average annual hours worked by each worker, the Greeks seem very hard-working.

    Figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that the average Greek worker toils away for 2,017 hours per year which is more than any other European country.

    Out of the 34 members of the OECD, that is just two places behind the board leaders, South Korea.

    On the other hand, the average German worker - normally thought of as the very epitome of industriousness - only manages 1,408 hours a year. Germany is 33rd out of 34 on the OECD list (or 24th out of 25 looking at the European countries alone).

    The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German.

    But there is more to these figures than meets the eye. There are two big reasons why these two countries have such different annual working hour totals.
    Greek olive farmers planting tree Greeks take less holiday, sickness leave and maternity leave than Germans

    Pascal Marianna, who is a labour markets statistician at the OECD says: "The Greek labour market is composed of a large number of people who are self-employed, meaning farmers and - on the other hand - shop-keepers who are working long hours."

    Self-employed workers tend to work more than those who have specified hours in an employment contract.
    Owned by facts. Yes those pesky things we all hate.

  20. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?
    Neither. You could throw 2 or 3 DH bikes in the trunk of that old boat and still have plenty of room to spare!

  21. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I was raised in Greece and my mother still live there. I follow the troubles there closely because I still own property there. The productive sector in Greece is small compared to the public sector where one out of three Greeks has (or had) a government job. Most of these jobs are of the paper shuffling variety much beloved of the socialist government that ruined Greece when they were in power.

    ]Greeks who work in the public sector hardly work at all and most of the agricultural labor is done by Albanian immigrants. As for not paying taxes, if the typical Greek paid all of the taxes he was supposed to he would bankrupt himself. There is not enough wealth or money in Greece to pay their huge debt or finance their yearly deficit, even if you confiscated everything from everybody.


    Here is the deficit as a percent of GDP over time.

    Care to explain how they could not pay it if they confiscated everything from everyone? That was the assertion from our resident expert. Let me see 12% of divide by 1 carry the 2... yep 12% is less than 100% and less than 60% remaining after the current taxes are taken. So that destroys the argument that they could not pay their current account deficit. It might be a bad idea but it is ignorant to claim they could not finance their deficit since they have 5x the necessary productivity in 1 year let alone whatever wealth is accumulated.

    Now onto tax evasion.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/bu...sion.html?_r=0
    Friedrich Schneider, an economics professor at Johannes Kepler University in Linz, Austria, estimates that about 120 billion euros in Greek assets lie outside the country, representing an extraordinary 65 percent of the country’s overall economic output. The assets abroad include bank deposits, real estate holdings and untaxed business income.

    A frequent adviser to European governments and international financial institutions, Mr. Schneider says that 70 billion euros is in Switzerland, about 20 billion euros is in Britain, with the rest spread out in other places like the United States, Singapore and offshore tax havens like the Cayman Islands.

    “All the rich people have sent their money out of the country,” said Mr. Schneider, who is perhaps the foremost expert on tax evasion and shadow economies in Europe. “That is why we have such unequal burden-sharing, with the average Greek having lost 40 percent of their income after taxes, while the wealthy have their money outside of Greece.”

    The solution, as Mr. Schneider sees it, is not to heap more taxes on the country’s evaporating tax base or to use legal threats to pursue the offshore cash. Instead, he suggests a tax amnesty in which all outside money would be invited back — with no questions asked — and be subject to a flat tax of 15 to 20 percent.
    Ouch seems like it would be handy for the government if people were paying those taxes after all that 65 percent of the countries economic output would come in pretty handy.

    Tax evasion and corruption in Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The OECD estimated in August 2009 that the size of the Greek black market to be around €65bn (equal to 25% of GDP), resulting each year in €20bn of unpaid taxes.[3] This is a European record in relative terms, and in comparison almost twice as big as the German black market (estimated to 15% of GDP).[4]

    Several successive Greek governments had in the past attempted to improve the situation, but all failed due to tax evasion's place within Greek culture. A rapid increase in government revenues through implementing a more effective tax collecting system has been recommended. Implementing the proper reforms, is however estimated to be a slow process, requiring at least two legislative periods before they start to work.[4]

    In the last quarter of 2005, participation in tax evasion reached an estimated 49% of the population,[2] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[2] A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year.[5]
    49% of the populace is evading taxes? Hmmm I guess it isn't a problem though all governments should be so lucky.

    How Greek tax evasion helped sink the global economy
    But why did Greece have such a massive budget deficit in the first place? One factor (among many) was rampant tax evasion, which had starved the Greek government of funds. As it turns out, this was a very big deal indeed. The Wall Street Journal’s Justin Lahart points to a new paper (pdf) by three economists who estimate that the size of Greek tax evasion accounted for roughly half the country’s budget shortfall in 2008 and one-third in 2009.
    So the Wall Street Journal that liberal rag said half the countries budget shortfall in 2008 was b/c of tax evasion. Nah they must be crazy b/c we all know it isn't a problem. Somebody said so.

  22. #372
    the half breed devil
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Neither. You could throw 2 or 3 DH bikes in the trunk of that old boat and still have plenty of room to spare!
    yeah, but you can easily fit six or maybe even seven guys in the car...

  23. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    you hire somebody to haul them for you...or buy a honda. if you own a bentley, you likely have that kind of money...
    Did you every think that may be his "honda"? Maybe his nice car is a Veyron.
    Just because you can't hear them scream doesn't mean they don't. Save a plant, eat meat.

  24. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefly View Post
    Did you every think that may be his "honda"? Maybe his nice car is a Veyron.
    HA! good point!

  25. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    And now you go shot down by the guy from Greece. Who needs to do their homework now?
    I'm an American. Born in the USA but my parents were Greek and we moved there when I was young, first as my father's last duty station in the Navy and after when he retired. My father immigrated in 1949 after the Greek Civil War, became an engineer and a US Navy officer.

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