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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    If you don't have strong legs, it harder.
    Hmm? I realize not having a granny gear would make it harder to do those grueling climbs but that's what... cross training is for.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I confess to have never used the largest chain ring on a triple setup and for what it's worth would really prefer a 1x10 setup on most of my bikes with a 24 tooth chainring up front.
    By contrast I have used my 22, 32 and 44 chainrings on the same ride many times. Each chainrings has its purpose.


    Now I am not against new technology, but do find if frustrating to be FORCED into upgrading when all you want to do is maintain a your bike. 10 years old is not old for piece of equipment that is 90% the same.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Really? Don't you spin out in the middle on flat ground?
    Our trails are mostly up and down...very few flat areas. And I'm more of a spinner than a masher.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Our trails are mostly up and down...very few flat areas. And I'm more of a spinner than a masher.
    Let me rephrase that. Don't you spin out in the middle going down?
    '96 San Andreas
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  5. #205
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    this thread is similar to the vinyl vs CDs vs mp3 debate i suffer through sometimes as a broadcaster...

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    this thread is similar to the vinyl vs CDs vs mp3 debate i suffer through sometimes as a broadcaster...
    It would have been, if the audio industry made it impossible to connect an old record player to a new stereo.

    Fortunately it is not so.


    Magura

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    It would have been, if the audio industry made it impossible to connect an old record player to a new stereo.

    Fortunately it is not so.


    Magura
    huh? my seventies pioneer TT works just fine with my nineties tuner/amp--although it's routed through a early 00's gemini mixer...

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Let me rephrase that. Don't you spin out in the middle going down?
    I have a 22/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. The only place I spin out and care is on pavement (where I guess I really don't care, anyway). I I might spin out on a fire road, but not on singletrack. It's just too rough and/or twisty to be going that fast.

    Been riding over 10 years this way, never saw the need for a big ring on the mtb.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    huh? my seventies pioneer TT works just fine with my nineties tuner/amp--although it's routed through a early 00's gemini mixer...
    Try reading my post once more.



    Magura

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Try reading my post once more.



    Magura
    gotcha...

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I have a 22/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. The only place I spin out and care is on pavement (where I guess I really don't care, anyway). I I might spin out on a fire road, but not on singletrack. It's just too rough and/or twisty to be going that fast.

    Been riding over 10 years this way, never saw the need for a big ring on the mtb.
    to each their own.

    since i don't own a car, lots of my riding involves a fair amount of pavement and fast fire roads. not having a big ring would be a quite a handicap.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Look the point is mtn bikes from 10-20 years ago are not that different. Not like what you see here. Changes from V-brakes to discs are not earth shattering. 9 or 10 speed drive trains, 29" wheels not to mention 31.8 vs 25.4 bars, taper head tubes. even 1 1/8 vs quill.

    All of these changes are detail changes and refinements. Just because they are out there it does not mean the old stuff is bad. It just means the new stuff is slight improvement. I don't dislike new stuff, but forcing upgrades not my idea of fun. There is that attitude that all the old stuff is bad or going to break. Hell no. A well built 10 year 26" hardtail with v-brakes will ride the trails today just fine. I did race on such bike a few weeks ago. Results were fine and I finished where I did due to me and not my bike. If I were racing for wins then I would probably need to upgraded, but when are just out for fun it is hard drop $$$ for only minor update.
    Not significant changes in the last 20 years?

    I disagree

    The crappy Suntour XCR on my bike is a far cry better then the best early suspension forks. Not to mention the advancements in rear suspension.

    Regardless, though, nobody is forced to buy anything.
    If you feel compelled to buy, that is your fault.

    You statement is full of contradictions.

    First you say all the changes are detail changes and refinements.
    Then you say they are improvements.

    Next you say that you race for fun and you did fine on your old bike acting like you could care less about a win. Then saying if you wanted to win you would need to upgrade bikes. Sounds more like you are upset that you can't buy a new bike so you can't win.
    (Of course, that is an assumption that you could be the guys that beat you)

    Let's face it, bike manufacturers could care less about your old bike.
    Your old bike doesn't make them a dime.
    They don't want you to have a 20 year old bike, they want you to buy a new one every year.

  13. #213
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    Edit - just be accountable, bro. Don't blame the bike industry if you decide you need bigger wheels, or smaller wheels ... to clean your line.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    Edit - just be accountable, bro. Don't blame the bike industry if you decide you need bigger wheels, or smaller wheels ... to clean your line.
    Hey, what happened to all that other stuff you wrote, I liked it!
    '96 San Andreas
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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    to each their own.

    since i don't own a car, lots of my riding involves a fair amount of pavement and fast fire roads. not having a big ring would be a quite a handicap.
    On a bike with less knobby tires that I planned to ride on pavement much, I'd have a bigger ring for sure
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Hey, what happened to all that other stuff you wrote, I liked it!
    I thought it was a little soap boxy.... But here's the full money version

    This is a pretty lame theory, that there is some global industry conspiratorial kool-aid that causes us mindless bikers to irrationally and uncontrollably buy **** we don't need, aren't able to use, and can't afford... and can't live without. That's a bunch of crap.

    Be accountable bro'.

    When I was riding a full rigid ~1993 3x8 speed Prestige steel GT Avalanche (...wish I still had it) I couldn't wait to get into a suspension fork ..... But by the time I wore out the GT, I was glad that I'd ridden through the first generations of front suspension .... And moved up to a full suspension Stumpjumper in 2002. Looking back, that bike was a tank, but at the time it felt like silk. I remember to this day my first ride on suspension around Cathedral Rock in Sedona thinking there was no way a trail bike could ever be any better. I'd seen/heard about hydraulic brakes... But hey probably just a fad. And besides, $1800 was as much as I'd ever dream of paying for a bicycle, even if it had last year's V-brakes.

    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    Now, I'm looking forward to carbon. I think droppers will eventually be perfected, when they work flawlessly and weigh less, and that'll be awesome. And i hear that 2x10 is fantastic... But 39/26 is a little tall for 29ers so I don't mind waiting for more selection of 36/22 cranks. Or maybe 1x11? Actually, I really think 2x11 with electric FRONT derailleur ( and mechanical rear derailleur) will be the sweet spot... But until I pull that trigger, my Titus is rolling just fine.

    Be accountable, bro. Don't blame Shimano if you decide Ice-Tech is going to give you added precision you need to clean your line so you drop a benji and scrap out your perfectly good OEM rotors. Don't blame Jamis for shaming you into 27.5 because you think your big wheels are "holding me back"

    Me, I can't wait to see what's next..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    to each their own.

    since i don't own a car, lots of my riding involves a fair amount of pavement and fast fire roads. not having a big ring would be a quite a handicap.
    I agree. I use my big on every ride. And I have a few cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    I thought it was a little soap boxy.... But here's the full money version

    This is a pretty lame theory, that there is some global industry conspiratorial kool-aid that causes us mindless bikers to irrationally and uncontrollably buy **** we don't need, aren't able to use, and can't afford... and can't live without. That's a bunch of crap.

    Be accountable bro'.

    When I was riding a full rigid ~1993 3x8 speed Prestige steel GT Avalanche (...wish I still had it) I couldn't wait to get into a suspension fork ..... But by the time I wore out the GT, I was glad that I'd ridden through the first generations of front suspension .... And moved up to a full suspension Stumpjumper in 2002. Looking back, that bike was a tank, but at the time it felt like silk. I remember to this day my first ride on suspension around Cathedral Rock in Sedona thinking there was no way a trail bike could ever be any better. I'd seen/heard about hydraulic brakes... But hey probably just a fad. And besides, $1800 was as much as I'd ever dream of paying for a bicycle, even if it had last year's V-brakes.

    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    Now, I'm looking forward to carbon. I think droppers will eventually be perfected, when they work flawlessly and weigh less, and that'll be awesome. And i hear that 2x10 is fantastic... But 39/26 is a little tall for 29ers so I don't mind waiting for more selection of 36/22 cranks. Or maybe 1x11? Actually, I really think 2x11 with electric FRONT derailleur ( and mechanical rear derailleur) will be the sweet spot... But until I pull that trigger, my Titus is rolling just fine.

    Be accountable, bro. Don't blame Shimano if you decide Ice-Tech is going to give you added precision you need to clean your line so you drop a benji and scrap out your perfectly good OEM rotors. Don't blame Jamis for shaming you into 27.5 because you think your big wheels are "holding me back"

    Me, I can't wait to see what's next..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.
    Right on!
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    I thought it was a little soap boxy.... But here's the full money version

    This is a pretty lame theory, that there is some global industry conspiratorial kool-aid that causes us mindless bikers to irrationally and uncontrollably buy **** we don't need, aren't able to use, and can't afford... and can't live without. That's a bunch of crap.

    Be accountable bro'.

    When I was riding a full rigid ~1993 3x8 speed Prestige steel GT Avalanche (...wish I still had it) I couldn't wait to get into a suspension fork ..... But by the time I wore out the GT, I was glad that I'd ridden through the first generations of front suspension .... And moved up to a full suspension Stumpjumper in 2002. Looking back, that bike was a tank, but at the time it felt like silk. I remember to this day my first ride on suspension around Cathedral Rock in Sedona thinking there was no way a trail bike could ever be any better. I'd seen/heard about hydraulic brakes... But hey probably just a fad. And besides, $1800 was as much as I'd ever dream of paying for a bicycle, even if it had last year's V-brakes.

    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    Now, I'm looking forward to carbon. I think droppers will eventually be perfected, when they work flawlessly and weigh less, and that'll be awesome. And i hear that 2x10 is fantastic... But 39/26 is a little tall for 29ers so I don't mind waiting for more selection of 36/22 cranks. Or maybe 1x11? Actually, I really think 2x11 with electric FRONT derailleur ( and mechanical rear derailleur) will be the sweet spot... But until I pull that trigger, my Titus is rolling just fine.

    Be accountable, bro. Don't blame Shimano if you decide Ice-Tech is going to give you added precision you need to clean your line so you drop a benji and scrap out your perfectly good OEM rotors. Don't blame Jamis for shaming you into 27.5 because you think your big wheels are "holding me back"

    Me, I can't wait to see what's next..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.
    Yes on everything especially that lat part.

    Seems people often want to blame the equipment for their problems and not their own inadequacies.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes on everything especially that lat part.

    Seems people often want to blame the equipment for their problems and not their own inadequacies.
    Yet nobody besides you have brought up that topic in this thread.

    So get your female hormones under control, and quit reading stuff that people don't type

    Magura

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I have a 22/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. The only place I spin out and care is on pavement (where I guess I really don't care, anyway). I I might spin out on a fire road, but not on singletrack. It's just too rough and/or twisty to be going that fast.

    Been riding over 10 years this way, never saw the need for a big ring on the mtb.
    I don't use the big ring on trails as much as the smaller ones, but I am happy to have it there. On faster flowing descents I will tend to move to the big ring just to reduce chainslap you get from the middle ring small rear cog combo. Plus in my last (and only) mtb race the last mile or 2 where on pavement and went into roadie mode with big ring and small cog to push 24 mph in order to pass another rider. I am sure glad I had triple on that ride.

    Point is I like versatility of the triple. It give a wide range of gears and allows mix of options on how to ride those gears. Going to a double gives up either range, flexibiity, or spacing and a single front is even worse requiring you to give up a lot of range.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Not significant changes in the last 20 years?

    I disagree

    The crappy Suntour XCR on my bike is a far cry better then the best early suspension forks. Not to mention the advancements in rear suspension.
    Bikes still have 2 wheels, fat tires, gears, seats and handlebars. Overall they are the pretty much the same.

    Frame materials have improved allowing for lighter bikes, but to to some degree they have offset by other things.

    In the end a good rider on old bike and still ride the same trails as before. He or she may not be able to go quite as fast it is can still be done. Look 40 year ago mtn biking did not really exist so change does happen, but right now we are in the refinement phase. The first big revolution was create mtn bike in first place. That means double triangle bike with "fat" tires with gears and an intended purpose of riding in the dirt another rough surfaces.

    The next revolution front suspension. The one following that was rear suspension. Since then there have been refinements to a lot of things. The funny thing about even these "revolutions" is that while most people run front suspension there are some that chose not to. There are even more still that chose to not run rear suspension. So that while the are revolutionary they are not not requirements either.




    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post

    You statement is full of contradictions.

    First you say all the changes are detail changes and refinements.
    Then you say they are improvements.

    Next you say that you race for fun and you did fine on your old bike acting like you could care less about a win. Then saying if you wanted to win you would need to upgrade bikes. Sounds more like you are upset that you can't buy a new bike so you can't win.
    (Of course, that is an assumption that you could be the guys that beat you)
    There improvements are detail changes and refinements. People would like to say a 10 speed drive train is 100% better than a 7 speed, but really it is not. It is a refinement and if used properly and improvement, but a minor one. On a recreational trail ride it not big deal either way. Still given the choice I would rather use my 9 spd vs the 7 spd on my 1998 bike. Even so I can't really say my riding got "better" on the 9 spd.

    As for racing... I did one race for the fun of it. I will do some additional ones. I will not race to win, but I always give 100% because it is what I do. Now if I really wanted to dedicate myself to winning races I would start with a lot of training. Lots more than I do now and I know I don't have time for that. Then I would try to eek out every less ounce of speed from my bike. I have background in club level car racing so I know what it takes to race competitively. A few years ago I placed 4 in my class at the national championship race. I lead half the race and finished 4th 2.5 seconds out of the lead after 40 min. This is in a class where all the cars are "identical". I built and maintained my car myself so I know what it takes to try to get 100% from something. On race bike ounce make a difference and you need the latest whiz bang gizmo because seconds matter. What I am doing now on bike is far cry from that so I see no need to chase the latest "go fast" stuff. I am tired of that. I prefer to have fun of competition without the work it takes to win. I train when I can and race what I have. I give my 100% on course, but realize I will never win and just hope to be in the pack having fun. That goal is achieved even on an old bike because fundamentally the old bike is still competent with a competent rider. There more difference in rider skills and fitness separating overall field of riders in mtn bike race than in the equipment old or new.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Let's face it, bike manufacturers could care less about your old bike.
    Your old bike doesn't make them a dime.
    They don't want you to have a 20 year old bike, they want you to buy a new one every year.
    This is quite true... and it is why they like to change standards and come out with new "must have" "Revolutionary" products each year.
    Last edited by JoePAz; 11-30-2012 at 07:02 AM.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    ...
    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    ..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.

    Same here. I had similar experience "upgrading". In 1998 I bought an entry level mongoose. vbrakes 3x7 Indy "S" fork. Good bike for the day and price. I rode it everywhere and loved. However it was a bit heavy and did not have the best fork. I swapped the fork to Judy in 2002 and it got better. Then in 2003 I "rewarded" myself with new bike. This time I went light and XT. Built up a new bike with the latest 9spd system, hollow cranks, etc. I shaved off a solid 5-6lbs of bike weight even with re-using the Judy I bought year earlier. Funny thing though.. While the bike climbed better and rode better in every way, I was not having "more fun" on the trails. The fun was the same and while I might have saved 30 seconds on a 5 minute climb it did not really change my riding any.

    I am still happy I upgraded when I did, but I realized that the bike was not going to give me super human skills. I sill had ride it. Today I could upgrade to the newest thing, but I ask myself.. "Will it make riding any more fun?" I have yet to find anything that stays "Yes" enough to drop $$$ on it.
    Joe
    2003 KHS Alite 4000 26" Hardtail - XC, All mountain, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  23. #223
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    All I can say is, the MTB has come a hell of a long way since I bought my Diamond Back Arrival in 1988!! I figure, I have another 25 years to ride. I can't wait to see what changes will come in the next 25 years!! I say, eff the past and bring on the future!!
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
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  24. #224
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    Who had to go an resurrect this dead thread? It died because:

    everything's already been said

    it's an endlessly debatable topic

  25. #225
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    I like carbon frames over aluminum. Raced both.

    I like 29er wheels on my hardtail vs 26" on my hardtail. Raced both.

    I like carbon hoops better than aluminum. Raced both.

    I like my modern fork with lock out better than my generation 1 Manitou with elastomer bumpers. Raced both.

    I like disc brakes better than cantis and v brakes. Raced both.

    If I raced DH, I would buy a dropper post in a heartbeat.

    Yadda yadda yadda.

    Shame on the industry? Funny. What you fail to realize is that the bike you currently ride has evolved from the bikes available in the 1800s.

    Go buy a penny farthing and get on with it then..

    Industry...please continue to evolve. I will manage to ignore the 10% of silly "must haves" that are introduced each season...

    **Note: Look at what happened to Chris King when they refused to evolve. Still a great company, but making way way less money than 10 years ago.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by rydbyk; 11-30-2012 at 11:16 AM.

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