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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I think Magura is losing, so I'll see if I can't help him.
    Magura makes his own parts because the industry doesn't make better stuff anymore. It just makes different stuff. He feels no reason to "upgrade".
    So, he has shunned the biking industry and all of its hype. He does not give a rat's ass about the industry because, in his opinion, it has come to a standstill.
    However, he would care about the industry if it stopped marketing these relatively insignificant changes as revolutions and put that money into RnD. But they don't, which is what he is saying.
    Am I right, Magura?
    Yes.

    Magura

  2. #302
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    this thread is trending sideways

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    this thread is trending sideways

    No, this thread has trended down hill for a long time.
    There is nothing sideways about it.

  4. #304
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    No, this thread has trended down hill for a long time.
    There is nothing sideways about it.
    ++ =

  5. #305
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    Wow did you actually go through all 13 pages and count?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades.
    If this is true, the amount of bikes sold today is the same amount sold 30 yrs ago, despite the population nearly doubling. I knew it was bad, but not that bad.
    And, it can only get worse from here on in.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.
    Are you sure? What do your figures say?
    Bicycles produced in the world - Worldometers

  8. #308
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.


    Seems impossible.
    1. No way the industry was worth 6 billion in 1980 and 6 billion in 2012.
    2. American industry? What about China's pop growth and their demand for bikes?
    3. Inflation taken into account here?

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.


    Seems impossible.
    1. No way the industry was worth 6 billion in 1980 and 6 billion in 2012.
    2. American industry? What about China's pop growth and their demand for bikes?
    3. Inflation taken into account here?
    Agree with you rydbyk - simply not possible. Think about it...

  10. #310
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    US sales by year from this link.

    Industry Overview 2011 - National Bicycle Dealers Association

    "The size of the industry has remained remarkably stable since 2003, with sales between $5.8 billion and $6.1 billion each year (the exception being 2009). For comparison purposes, we have projected the industry at $5.3 billion in 2002, $5.4 billion in 2003, $5.8 billion in 2004, $6.1 billion in 2005 (an all-time high), $5.8 billion in 2006, $6.0 billion in 2007, $6.0 billion in 2008, $5.6 billion in 2009, $6 billion in 2010, and $6 billion in 2011."

    As you can see the industry has no meaningful growth in dollars. It ebbs and flows but remains fairly constant with no appreciable growth. When you add inflation to the equation the market in dollars is actually shrinking.

  11. #311
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    Just because walmart sells more bikes doesn't mean the industry is growing .
    All one has to do is think abot the number of manufactures that are now reduced to supplying dept store bikes. Unit numbers may have risin but unit price is plummeting. This is to be expected though when the general public demands the cheapest possibble crap.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales
    The U.S. is not the entire industry.

  13. #313
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    of course that is the case for the U.S.. We are lazy and would rather drive.

  14. #314
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    ^+1

  15. #315
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    Dude come on, giving your own thread a +1 is some pretty weak jive. That is like slapping yourself five. You can do better than that.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    Dude come on, giving your own thread a +1 is some pretty weak jive. That is like slapping yourself five. You can do better than that.
    Dude come on, that wasn't my post and this isn't my thread.

  17. #317
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    cracks a beer, sits back, and hits refresh...

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    cracks a beer, sits back, and hits refresh...
    Don't forget the popcorn!

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Dude come on, that wasn't my post and this isn't my thread.
    Am I the only one who sees that post 16 is pointed at post 15 with a +1 and that they both have your name on them? If so then I apologize.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    i am curious as to the source of this figure.

    From my own personal experience, that seems doubtful. Americans hardly ever rode bikes except as kids' toys in 1980, or as beach cruisers maybe. Since then there have been a big road bike wave, Floyd and Lance winning the TDF, mountain bikes being "invented" around the beginning of that era, gas prices going up, a rise in persons emphasizing sustainable culture and bike culture, and so on. And the bike prices go up every year, at least for the higher end bikes. If the market couldn't sustain that, you would see deep discounts everywhere. Further, the mountain bikes have become more specialized and there are more niches. The same can be said for road bikes.

    I guess it is true that the biggest demographic, the baby boomers, are getting older and older and pretty soon are going to stop shopping for bikes and instead shop for tennis balls for their walkers, this seems to be balanced by the fact that there are plenty of 50 and 60+ year old riders on the paths and trails.

    There are also a lot of related industries like magazines, clothing makers etc. In 1982 I read about the first mountain bikes in "Action Now Magazine" which was a sort of all sport magazine that was started when Skateboarding Mag went under (hey, I grew up in Huntington Beach!). Now each month I get 2 or 3 different mountain bike mags, and don't read several others.

    So, I am finding this doubtful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^+1
    This is the way it looks from me. Post 316, mine is pointed to post 315, daves4mtb. Which is the way I intended it to be.

  21. #321
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    my earlier post is # 314

  22. #322
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    Wow grizzlyplumber, I thought I was blind.
    Haha jk. But how ....... I don't have the word for it... would you have to be to +1 yourself?
    Does Shawn seem like that kind of a guy?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  23. #323
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    I have seen the post order get messed up before.

  24. #324
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    Hence the jk. But usually the messed up order is universal, isn't it?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  25. #325
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    I would think.

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    Am I the only one who sees that post 16 is pointed at post 15 with a +1 and that they both have your name on them? If so then I apologize.

    You better take a closer look.

    But to answer your question, yes you are the only one seeing what you think you are seeing.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Wow grizzlyplumber, I thought I was blind.
    Haha jk. But how ....... I don't have the word for it... would you have to be to +1 yourself?
    Does Shawn seem like that kind of a guy?
    I obviously stand corrected, to Shawn my most sincere apologies, as to what kind of guy he is, I think that is self evident and everyone here knows the answer to such a silly question. Please carry on.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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  28. #328
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    Many good valid points from rev106's letter all the way to the last posting.

    Being a bike rider since a kid and self mechanic from not much later on, i believe that some improvements made by the "bike industry" are very good and others fade with the test of time.
    Who doesn't love their "quick release" wheels? Great improvement, but, take notice, "nuts" are still seen on many wheels (pun not intended).
    On the other hand, the famous quill stem and Biopace chainrings. For some reason or another, they're basically out of market.

    And the list of sucesses and failures of the "industry" goes on.

    I believe the mountain biker can be well served by technological improvements. It all depends on the rider's needs, budget and mindset. A racer will never have the same equipment needs as a commuter, bmx'er or downhiller.

    My own case now:

    Testing and deciding for myself, reading, asking and keeping very old mags and catalogues proves to be useful to find what works and what fades.

    Gears? -A common question from my peers- I went from one to 26 too many and stopped there, coming back to one. For a time, i was also a "follower" of the "industry" as well, adding gears as time went by. Why one now? I decided to work uphill and regain the feeling of riding as a kid, a very personal thing. Also, spinning out on flats and walking up an ocassional uphill won't make me feel bad.

    Parts, gadgets, add-ons, systems, came on my bike, some stayed, some fell off. But i tried them, deciding which suited my style and which don't. Yes, i had full suspension bikes too.

    I ended up on a singlespeed bike, on a steel frame, rigid, tubeless tires, 9 mm quick release, single piston hydro brakes, 1 1/8" here and outboard bearings there, clips, etc, etc. The best of old and new technology, as it suits my style and needs.

    Yes, i use a helmet, and have only one bike.

    Take technology improvements and use what's needed, just don't overdo it. A bicycle moves on legs, arms and heart.

    May all be well
    Simple, not easy.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    I obviously stand corrected, to Shawn my most sincere apologies, as to what kind of guy he is, I think that is self evident and everyone here knows the answer to such a silly question. Please carry on.
    That was nice man, thanks! + rep for that!

  30. #330
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    I'm just going to go ahead and disagree with the op's view of the bike industry. If you stick to your disipline (cross country, DH, free-ride, etc) standards don't change too much. I consider standards to be things like BB size, steerer tube diameter, handle bar diameter, and so on. Types of bottom brackets, gear setups, and most other parts are merely options for customization.

    I actually think all the different types of mountain bikes (XC, AM, DH...) is encouraging to see. It's a sign that mountain biking is becoming popular enough and is growing to the point where just a "mountain bike" doesn't cut it for everything we use these machines for. Just like the automotive industry. At first all you could buy was a "car." As the industry grew and people developed their individual needs, categories of cars started branching out into sports cars, SUV, trucks, hybrids, etc. This is an exciting time for mountain bikes and I can't wait to see what kind of technology will trickle down into the bikes that I can afford
    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is.

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by balance_fit View Post
    The best of old and new technology, as it suits my style and needs.
    Nice. That's a good conclusion to make. 300 odd posts later, we have a nice place to stop.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  32. #332
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    What I want to know is why do the most expensive mtn bikes cost around $10,000 and the most expensive road bikes are practically double that price? there seems to be far fewer parts on a road bike.

  33. #333
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    More emphasis on light weight. Less is more.

  34. #334
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    Plus, roadies are dumb and will pay more.

    Disclaimer: The above is for entertainment purposes only. And may not reflect the views of the author and/or MTBR.com.

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    What I want to know is why do the most expensive mtn bikes cost around $10,000 and the most expensive road bikes are practically double that price? there seems to be far fewer parts on a road bike.
    Agreed. It is plain dumb. I ride both. My mtb is far more complex than my road bike, yet costs 20% less.

    A generalization here:
    Avg car value at a road race = $42,000
    Avg car value at a mtb race = $24,000

    Also, in my opinion, the difference is much larger between a $2500 mtb and a $5000 mtb than when you compare a $2500 road bike to a $5000 road bike.

    Don't even get me started on the tri scene here in San Diego...

  36. #336
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    Agreed. I think its because mtbing is more mainstream. It appeals more to the common folk.
    If a person wants to bike around town then they'll just get a cruiser or something.
    But you need an MTB to MTB.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  37. #337
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    Hitler. There, I said it.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Hitler. There, I said it.
    Holly crap! Hitler was your grand papi! That's heavy maaaan!

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Holly crap! Hitler was your grand papi! That's heavy maaaan!
    Godwin's Law.

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

    Citing other sources...

    How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

    "6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

    Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
    thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
    virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
    the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (quirk@swcp.com):

    Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
    "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

    Sorry, folks. Nice try, though."
    Check my Site

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev106 View Post
    An open letter to the bike industry

    Dear Bike Industry,

    I’m beginning to feel that you don’t have myself and my fellow rider’s best interest at heart, all you seem to be interested in is creating new “standards” and try to force people to buy them under the auspice that the new “standard” is better than before. I would like to think that most cyclists are a savvy bunch, but we do glom onto new tech with eagerness, a fault that you (the bicycle industry) seems more than happy to exploit.
    Every year there’s a new bottom bracket “standard”. Something becomes a standard once it is in wide, common, and accepted use like a square taper bb. I have never felt the need to put any of these new, false standards on my bike instead of using a tried and true standard. I think you need to think about how you label all of these pointless bottom bracket options out there. The advantages are nominal to the rider, and only serve to create more niche markets and confuse new riders that get overwhelmed by all the “standards” that have been made. Shame on you. The people that can really gain any benefit if at all from any of these alleged improvements are pro racers, and pro races get their bikes and parts for free, we, the majority of the bike buying public have to pay for our stuff. Did my square tape bb suddenly stop working after years of loyal service and 1000’s of miles? No, it did not. My mountain bike is old for sure and my friends that have newer bikes are still behind me just like they are before they had a new bike with all of the new “improvements” in technology, I expected them to leave me in the dust being that I have only 21 speeds and they 30, but alas it did not happen. I also find it funny that I having 21 speeds never once thought I could make this traverse or climb that section of trail if I only had some more gears, and now you try and sell me less gears in the form of a 2 x10 drive train for more money than my 21 gears, do you take me for a fool? Shame on you bike industry. I can go on, how lame and pointless 31.8 bars are and how ugly they look, or how a 200 dollar seat post that drops can’t beat a 10 buck quick release seat post clamp and to take the 10 seconds to take in the view before you drop in is worth way more than another lever do-hickey on your bike, are you really that lazy? And the 29 wheels, really? Every time I see some poor 5.5” guy on a 29er, I just feel like the bike industry is made up of carneys and we are it’s willing dupes. And these massive head tube bearings they look like the wheel bearings in my van, there’s no way you can convince me I “need” that junk. At some point I just feel like you think I’m an idiot they will buy anything that you put before me, I think you think so little of us as a group that one can keep changing things endlessly chasing one’s tail in the pointless quest of improving something that needs no improvement, even the bike magazines are getting weary of your cavalcade of falsehoods, they are usually your ever loyal heralds but that is even changing.
    I turned away from mountain biking magazines for few years and when I came back, mountain bikes no longer existed. There are xc, all mountain, free ride, downhill, etc. but there are no “mountain bikes” anymore. I still own and use a mountain bike, I understand that by creating labels and slicing the pie in ever-smaller slices you can perhaps sucker someone into buying a bunch of bikes that only get used for one type of trail. I guess that’s clever marketing and sales go up, but I think in doing so you alienate the beginner that will certainly be confused and intimidated by all the jargon and techo-babble when they go to their local shop and want a “mountain bike” Shame on you bike industry, I think you need a time-out to think about what you’ve done.
    For me it is impossible not to agree. Mtb fans are teased over every limit of reasonableness.
    Stupidity and conformity are practically incurable disease in the era of marketing. I remember that marketing is the art of making us buy things we do not need with money we do not have. Of course there are people with low self-esteem that they need to feel integrated and always defend the new features offered by the companies.
    Mtb magazines are a joke all over the world, to make entering one of them in a home is an insult to the intelligence of everyone.

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Godwin's Law.

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

    Citing other sources...

    How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

    "6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

    Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
    thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
    virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
    the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (quirk@swcp.com):

    Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
    "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

    Sorry, folks. Nice try, though."
    This is a bit much. Although highly consistent with Godwin's Law.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Godwin's Law.

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

    Citing other sources...

    How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

    "6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

    Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
    thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
    virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
    the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (quirk@swcp.com):

    Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
    "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

    Sorry, folks. Nice try, though."
    Just to make it clear, I wasn't the one who brought up Hitler.

  43. #343
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    Warp knows what I'm talking about.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by toscano View Post
    For me it is impossible not to agree. Mtb fans are teased over every limit of reasonableness.
    Stupidity and conformity are practically incurable disease in the era of marketing. I remember that marketing is the art of making us buy things we do not need with money we do not have. Of course there are people with low self-esteem that they need to feel integrated and always defend the new features offered by the companies.
    Mtb magazines are a joke all over the world, to make entering one of them in a home is an insult to the intelligence of everyone.
    You're over thinking it. I like to ride. I like to ride well-built, technologically advanced bikes. If I was poor I'd go on Bikes Direct and stretch my dollar as far as I could on an inexpensive but serviceable bike; as I have money I like to spend it on things I like...the Lord knows that between car payments, auto insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, property tax, income tax to support the entitled, the fat, the lazy, and the stupid I certainly spend a lot on things I don't like.

    Mountain biking, by the way, is the opposite of conformity, at least where I live. Nobody understands it, they think spending more than a hundred bucks for a bike is insane, and chicks definitely don't dig it....my girlfriend for her part tolerates it but if I was the assistant manager at Taco Bell she probably wouldn't.

    Additionally, while it's true that progress in technology is incremental, a high-end bike in 2013 is vastly better than one from 1993. By better I mean faster, more rugged, lighter, and just more fun to ride.

    Anti-conformity is itself a kind of conformity, by the way. Avant garde is just as reflexive and provincial as normality. I care what people think about me, I adhere to social norms, I am not a rebel or vastly different in outlook from the majority of people which gives me the freedom to do things that I like without worrying about image.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    You're over thinking it. I like to ride. I like to ride well-built, technologically advanced bikes. If I was poor I'd go on Bikes Direct and stretch my dollar as far as I could on an inexpensive but serviceable bike; as I have money I like to spend it on things I like...the Lord knows that between car payments, auto insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, property tax, income tax to support the entitled, the fat, the lazy, and the stupid I certainly spend a lot on things I don't like.

    Mountain biking, by the way, is the opposite of conformity, at least where I live. Nobody understands it, they think spending more than a hundred bucks for a bike is insane, and chicks definitely don't dig it....my girlfriend for her part tolerates it but if I was the assistant manager at Taco Bell she probably wouldn't.

    Additionally, while it's true that progress in technology is incremental, a high-end bike in 2013 is vastly better than one from 1993. By better I mean faster, more rugged, lighter, and just more fun to ride.

    Anti-conformity is itself a kind of conformity, by the way. Avant garde is just as reflexive and provincial as normality. I care what people think about me, I adhere to social norms, I am not a rebel or vastly different in outlook from the majority of people which gives me the freedom to do things that I like without worrying about image.
    My friend, you hit the nail right on the head and drove it all the way in!

    The OP said something about forcing us to buy stuff. We are not forced to buy anything. It's a choice. I'm glad to have the choice to buy bikes and parts that are better then what I bought last. Even if it's only a little better. It's my choice to buy them or not, and for me to decide if they are enough of an improvement to buy. And if I do my due diligence I will know what to buy and what not to buy.

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by toscano View Post
    For me it is impossible not to agree. Mtb fans are teased over every limit of reasonableness.
    Stupidity and conformity are practically incurable disease in the era of marketing. I remember that marketing is the art of making us buy things we do not need with money we do not have. Of course there are people with low self-esteem that they need to feel integrated and always defend the new features offered by the companies.
    Mtb magazines are a joke all over the world, to make entering one of them in a home is an insult to the intelligence of everyone.
    yes but marketing is just a polite word for propoganda. Companies are not advertising a cool fizzy drink, its a sexy ass on the beach. or something like that.

    Have you seen the latest ads for the shimano Zee line? They don't even care about the product, its all about the image, all propoganda, sorry, polite company here, use the word propoganda your mind instantly goes to Hitler and Goebbels, I mean marketing.

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    yes but marketing is just a polite word for propoganda. Companies are not advertising a cool fizzy drink, its a sexy ass on the beach. or something like that.

    Have you seen the latest ads for the shimano Zee line? They don't even care about the product, its all about the image, all propoganda, sorry, polite company here, use the word propoganda your mind instantly goes to Hitler and Goebbels, I mean marketing.
    You should be smart enough to filter out the crap.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You should be smart enough to filter out the crap.
    It's not the fluffy ads that worry me, most people see through all that, it's the way people blindly believe whatever ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN etc show them.

  49. #349
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    Godwin's law wins again! Marketing, advertising and salesmen do not sell products, they sell emotions. They don't sell you the thing, they sell you what you want the thing to do for you. In most cases, that boils down to getting laid.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    It's not the fluffy ads that worry me, most people see through all that, it's the way people blindly believe whatever ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN etc show them.
    You forgot to mention Fox.

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