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  1. #151
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    Someone seems a bit butthurt...
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  2. #152
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    I pretty much stayed away from this thread, but since I just shared this thought elsewhere, this is probably a more appropriate spot:

    Every bike forum I've read has way too much complaining from people about 'the industry' using 'marketing' to try and take their money and make them buy something new (29ers, 650b, tapered steerers, the list goes on). But there are a lot of people looking to buy at any given point, and besides I would guess the majority of bike sales are people buying new complete bikes, rather than enthusiasts building up a frame. I don't remember people complaining about having to buy a new car when side curtain airbags or traction control became common, but any advance in the bike industry has people screaming about being gouged rather than thinking "yeah, that might be cool when I get my next bike in a few years."
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I pretty much stayed away from this thread, but since I just shared this thought elsewhere, this is probably a more appropriate spot:

    Every bike forum I've read has way too much complaining from people about 'the industry' using 'marketing' to try and take their money and make them buy something new (29ers, 650b, tapered steerers, the list goes on). But there are a lot of people looking to buy at any given point, and besides I would guess the majority of bike sales are people buying new complete bikes, rather than enthusiasts building up a frame. I don't remember people complaining about having to buy a new car when side curtain airbags or traction control became common, but any advance in the bike industry has people screaming about being gouged rather than thinking "yeah, that might be cool when I get my next bike in a few years."
    I've never had to use the features of a seat belt, and I've never had to use the features of ABS, yet I get to pay for them, because of the masses being idiots that are irresponsible drivers in the driving conditions out there. You can't fix stupid, be it people, or operators, with engineering feats mandated into place making vehicles more and more expensive for the masses.

    I say, let Darwins Law sort it out, and leave all the crap bells and whistles off of our cars, morons shouldn't be driving in the first place, driving is a privelege, not a right. Leave it as an option for those that want it, not mandated by a Nanny State government.
    "i'll brazilian when YOU do boy, right around the ol' rusty star. Actually, whole fruit bowl. Get on it!" NicoleB

  4. #154
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    Sure, but even the best drivers can and do have collisions beyond their control. Besides, that's irrelevant to the point I was making. Replace safety features with convenience or performance improvements in cars; my point is the same.
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

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  5. #155
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    Obviously the OP has a hard time understanding that the bike industry is a Business. Yes, to make money. Otherwise, no innovation, no new bikes, no specialties, nothing. Marketing? Yes, some of it BS, some of it actually works. You can also thank the pros that have pushed the sport to the limit.

    I personally thank God for 29ers. I started road bike racing and in 5 years I fell behind in MTB technology. The only thing that saves me are fully rigid 29ers and that is now also tricky with oversized forks and BB30. That I do not like. CArbon wheels on a MTB? Humm Dont know. I still nurse the carbon wheels on my roadbike.

    So Thank you bike industry for:
    Tubless tires
    29ers
    Carbon Forks
    Rear shock platform and brains
    Super light hydro disk breaks
    Carbon Fiber frames
    Carbon Fiber Parts
    Sit and spin my ass...

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta View Post
    So Thank you bike industry for:
    Tubless tires
    29ers
    Carbon Forks
    Rear shock platform and brains
    Super light hydro disk breaks
    Carbon Fiber frames
    Carbon Fiber Parts
    Sounds like a scary ride...a 29" carbon frame 5" travel bike with a rigid carbon fork, ultra light brakes, tubeless tires and carbon bits holding it all together.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  7. #157
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    So OP, with this type of reasoning, you are basically saying that once the bicycle was invented, all evolution or change should have stopped. Or is it that all evolution of the bicycle should have stopped once you bought your, "mountain bike"? For me, I can't wait to see what the next 20 years has in store for the mountain bike, which ever type of mountain bike I decide to buy, or not to buy.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Sounds like a scary ride...a 29" carbon frame 5" travel bike with a rigid carbon fork, ultra light brakes, tubeless tires and carbon bits holding it all together.
    That is funny!
    Sit and spin my ass...

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I don't remember people complaining about having to buy a new car when side curtain airbags or traction control became common
    Actually, I wish you could find cars without airbags and all that fancy crap they force you buy on new cars. Not that I don't like that stuff, but it would be nice if you could get a decent new car for under $10k otd
    I don't mind that is is available to have if you want it, but in many cases we are forced to get it if we want a new car.

    Difference with the bike industry is that you are not forced to buy any of that stuff.
    If you want a basic rigid bike with cantilever bikes and a steel frame you can still buy one and get it cheap. If you don't like the advances, then stick with what you have and let those who do want improvements buy them.

  10. #160
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    Like anything else, cycling is a big business. In order for companies to remain solvent, they need to sell their product. Providing 'new', yet maybe unnecessary products give them the opportunity to bring in their needed capital.

    No one forces us to buy. We're all suckers to some degree!

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCollector View Post
    No one forces us to buy.
    See this is where I disagree.

    It would be nice if the new stuff, was just added to the list of options.
    The problem is that standards are hardly standards anymore, so spares and wear items are pretty specific.
    This is all good and fine, till the standards change, so spares and wear items are becoming obsolete, forcing us to bin a bike that otherwise is still good.

    A good example would be, that finding a high quality 8sp cassette, is close to impossible by now. So a perfectly good XTR 8sp drivetrain is pretty much for the bin.


    Magura

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    See this is where I disagree.

    It would be nice if the new stuff, was just added to the list of options.
    The problem is that standards are hardly standards anymore, so spares and wear items are pretty specific.
    This is all good and fine, till the standards change, so spares and wear items are becoming obsolete, forcing us to bin a bike that otherwise is still good.

    A good example would be, that finding a high quality 8sp cassette, is close to impossible by now. So a perfectly good XTR 8sp drivetrain is pretty much for the bin.


    Magura
    See, this is where I disagree:

    8 speed cassette in Mountain Bike Parts | eBay
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  13. #163
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    OP: more people will read your post(s) if you break them up into easy-to-read paragraphs...

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    See, this is where I disagree:

    8 speed cassette in Mountain Bike Parts | eBay
    Which in the cases i have seen so far, has turned out very expensive

    But yes, they naturally can be found, just not at a cost that has anything to do with the reality usually.

    Used ones are plenty, but buying a used cassette, is at best like buying a lottery ticket.

    Besides, having to hunt NOS on Efraud is not my idea of having things available.
    It is a far cry from not getting issues for no good reason, from the industry changing "standards" in a rapid pace to keep peoples bikes becoming obsolete, just for the sake of making them obsolete.

    It would have been easy for the industry to have kept the compatibility all the way from 7sp. They just saw an opportunity to create a latent need.


    Magura

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Dear Redline and Profile,

    Thanks for pushing splined cranksets in the early 80's. Square taper blew then and it still does.

    -The guy who stopped reading the rant and rolled his eyes when he got to "square taper".
    I didn't even start reading, I opened the thread, saw the massive run on sentence and moved to the responses.

    Mountain bikes, and all bikes for that matter have never been standard. To think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of the past.

    If you've been intimately involved with bikes for any length of time, you know this.
    Disclaimer: I no longer fix bikes for a living.
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  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy View Post
    I've never had to use the features of a seat belt
    You've never stopped so suddenly that your seatbelt was keeping you in the seat? What about your passenger? I think you underestimate the restraining of a seatbelt. Never had to quickly stop or slow down for someone in front? You probably weren't concentrating on the seatbelt, because it was holding you in place and keeping you from being pushed towards the wheel. Sure, you haven't used it in a crash while spinning through the air, but I think your life and experience in a car would still be quite different if there weren't any. We'd be constantly trying to brace ourselves against something when we slow down. I know I sure like to test my brakes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    See this is where I disagree.

    It would be nice if the new stuff, was just added to the list of options.
    The problem is that standards are hardly standards anymore, so spares and wear items are pretty specific.
    This is all good and fine, till the standards change, so spares and wear items are becoming obsolete, forcing us to bin a bike that otherwise is still good.

    A good example would be, that finding a high quality 8sp cassette, is close to impossible by now. So a perfectly good XTR 8sp drivetrain is pretty much for the bin.


    Magura
    I don't think that's really practical. Maybe you do have a "perfectly good 8spd drivetrain", but derailer springs wear, the pivots and their bushings wear, pulleys wear, the rings wear, the freewheel carrier gets scored, shifters wear, detents wear down, and so on. Some of these are replaceable, but this far down the line an 8spd cassette is the least of most people's 8spd worries, and if you happen to have all the other parts in pristine condition, well that's just an anomaly.

    Where you should be thanking the manufacturers is that they use the same width hub and BB standards, for the most part.

    You said you have to "bin your bike", what is wrong with it, besides the drivetrain? 1.125" steerer? 73 or 68mm BB? 135mm hub? And so on? That doesn't sound like it's obsolete. It sounds like you are complaining about wear-items, things that are never intended to be "lifetime" components in the first place. If one does sneak through, then it's an anomaly, not the standard.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  18. #168
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    In response to OP. as a consumer, you have a right to feel that way, and the right to express it. However, as someone else here mentioned, the bike industry is out there not just for your enjoyment/convenience, but to make MOOLAH. They need to get paid. And if bikes were made so that they lasted forever without obsoletion, then people would hold onto their rigid steel bikes with center pull cantis.

    Progress is good, most of the time. I like my disk brakes and my thread less headset and dual compound tires. I like having 24 speeds. And this one I don't get: what's your beef with 31.8 bars? You may think they look ugly, but mine look sick! And I drool over technologies like black box motion control and brain. We live in an industrialized world, and you can try and hold onto the past, but someday the industry will leave you hanging. you may kick butt with your bike. But have you tried kicking butt on a more recent bike? It's easier.

    You mentioned the square taper bb. It is widely accepted that sq tp is inferior to other standards. It flexes and is heavy. In response to that, Shimano created its proprietary Octalink. It sucked because the bearings were too small (or something). So they created Octalink V2. Other crank/bb manufacturers were mad that Shimano made a proprietary bb, and they wanted splines too. I.S.I.S. was born. RF, FSA and I believe SRAM all support ISIS. But people wanted to do better. They needed external bearings. And thus was born the 2 piece crank. Press fit was created by trek for even more rigidity and lightness.

    Square taper, octa, octa v2, ISIS, external bearing, and Press fit.
    Seems like a lot of places to screw up, but feel blessed. At least they all use 68mm bb shells with English thread (ISO) (except for pf, which is screwy IMHO). You can get any one of these at any time. The 68 x 30 English thread has survived a long time. You may still want a UN 55 or w/e but let us have our x types and hollow techs please. The bike industry doesn't force kool aid down everyone's throats. it asks the majority if they like it. If they do, then we have called obsoletion of old stuff ourselves.
    Last edited by sauprankul; 11-26-2012 at 12:00 AM.
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  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    ...
    Press fit was created by trek for even more rigidity and lightness.
    The bike industry doesn't force kool aid down everyone's throats. it asks the majority if they like it..
    No. They make changes to cut their production time & costs. Many changes have occurred recently, which I feel is a result of their attempt to mass-market carbon. IME, Press-fit is a PIA, and a deterrent to buying a new bike/frame.
    Anyone who cross-threaded has bigger issues, should rely on their LBS, become a lemming, and increase industry profits.
    No thanks, sheeple.


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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post

    You mentioned the square taper bb. It is widely accepted that sq tp is inferior to other standards. It flexes and is heavy. In response to that, Shimano created its proprietary Octalink. It sucked because the bearings were too small (or something). So they created Octalink V2. Other crank/bb manufacturers were mad that Shimano made a proprietary bb, and they wanted splines too. I.S.I.S. was born. RF, FSA and I believe SRAM all support ISIS. But people wanted to do better. They needed external bearings. And thus was born the 2 piece crank. Press fit was created by trek for even more rigidity and lightness.
    That's close, but not quite right. Shimano with the octalink 1 system had a pretty good system, not as strong as the external BB system, but a good step up. They used two sets of bearings, one set of needle bearing inside, and then some fashion of ball/roller bearings on the outside. They patented it. To compete, the others got together and did ISIS, but there was a fatal flaw. Because shimano had that needle bearing tucked in there, they had a much stronger and more reliable system. The ISIS never lived up to the reliability of the equivalent shimano system because there simply wasn't enough space to cram a regular bearing in there and the needle-setup was patented, until they came out with some of the "gigapipe DH" type ones that had double-bearings stuffed in the ends, and those weighed a ton due to the design compromise. The eventual shimano external BB did two important things for this system (and some other side benefits), it made it even stronger and better able to cope with modern riding, and it got rid of the taper-interface. The taper inteface was still being used on the octalink V1, as well as ISIS. This is where Race Face and Truvativ had really never caught up, because even when they were using external BBs, they were still using a taper inteface that wore every time you took them on and off.

    Other side benefits of the shimano external BBs include being able to pry up the dust seal and regrease the bearings, buying new bearings for extremely cheap ($15 at enduroforkseals.com), and of course working in most every "old" bike out there.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  21. #171
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    Sorry if my info wasn't totally accurate, should have had a disclaimer. The point was to show there was a REASON why all those bottom bracket "standards" exist. They aren't just trying to get more money from you, they are actually making better bikes, believe it or not.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Sorry if my info wasn't totally accurate, should have had a disclaimer. The point was to show there was a REASON why all those bottom bracket "standards" exist. They aren't just trying to get more money from you, they are actually making better bikes, believe it or not.
    Yep, I remember watching videos of people bending and snapping square taper cranksets. They were not up to the task when we started going freeride, downhill and all mountain. What many of us consider normal drops and not freeride or downhill stuff will bend and snap them. That and it's stupid easy and quick to take off the shimano cranks without excessive force or wearing down a taper-interface (which can cause creaking, wobble, play, etc).

    I was just trying to point out that octalink V1 was pretty good. Most people had no problems with it, but it was an intermediary step. Huge difference between V2 and square, but still V1 was a step up for sure. ISIS on the other hand, that was a "me-too!" trainwreck.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53119 View Post
    i confess. i do share some of the op's thoughts but it's towards road bikes. I've learned to live with terms like NOS and NIB and it's been fine as far as purchases go. I don't ride like a total beast anymore so "going" thru parts is not a bit frustrating to me at all. It'll never frustrate me to the point where i'd ever let it kill the enjoyment of a ride, that's for sure.

    seriously, square taper bbs suck. that's the second thing i would destroy after wheels if you grew up on bmx. there's a reason profiles had splines.
    You know that NIB means new in box right? It has nothing to do with old stock. My 2012 XTR brake came NIB.
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  24. #174
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    Pretentious much?

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I don't think that's really practical. Maybe you do have a "perfectly good 8spd drivetrain", but derailer springs wear, the pivots and their bushings wear, pulleys wear, the rings wear, the freewheel carrier gets scored, shifters wear, detents wear down, and so on. Some of these are replaceable, but this far down the line an 8spd cassette is the least of most people's 8spd worries, and if you happen to have all the other parts in pristine condition, well that's just an anomaly.

    Yeah, it seems like a lot of folks talk about having "perfectly good" older generation high end derailleurs, and I wonder if they've had any experience on a new one for comparison. I usually end up replacing derailleurs because the pivots and springs develop play, not because I smash them into things. I do ride quite a bit, but I only get ~2 years out of a derailleur before it gets sloppy and loses precision.

    Some folks talk about still using derailleurs that are 8+ years old and I can't help but think that they must be worn out by this point. I'd rather have a brand new Deore derailleur than an 8 year old used XTR model.

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