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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I think Magura is losing, so I'll see if I can't help him.
    Magura makes his own parts because the industry doesn't make better stuff anymore. It just makes different stuff. He feels no reason to "upgrade".
    So, he has shunned the biking industry and all of its hype. He does not give a rat's ass about the industry because, in his opinion, it has come to a standstill.
    However, he would care about the industry if it stopped marketing these relatively insignificant changes as revolutions and put that money into RnD. But they don't, which is what he is saying.
    Am I right, Magura?
    Yes.

    Magura

  2. #302
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    this thread is trending sideways

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    this thread is trending sideways

    No, this thread has trended down hill for a long time.
    There is nothing sideways about it.

  4. #304
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    No, this thread has trended down hill for a long time.
    There is nothing sideways about it.
    ++ =

  5. #305
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    Wow did you actually go through all 13 pages and count?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades.
    If this is true, the amount of bikes sold today is the same amount sold 30 yrs ago, despite the population nearly doubling. I knew it was bad, but not that bad.
    And, it can only get worse from here on in.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.
    Are you sure? What do your figures say?
    Bicycles produced in the world - Worldometers

  8. #308
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.


    Seems impossible.
    1. No way the industry was worth 6 billion in 1980 and 6 billion in 2012.
    2. American industry? What about China's pop growth and their demand for bikes?
    3. Inflation taken into account here?

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.


    Seems impossible.
    1. No way the industry was worth 6 billion in 1980 and 6 billion in 2012.
    2. American industry? What about China's pop growth and their demand for bikes?
    3. Inflation taken into account here?
    Agree with you rydbyk - simply not possible. Think about it...

  10. #310
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    US sales by year from this link.

    Industry Overview 2011 - National Bicycle Dealers Association

    "The size of the industry has remained remarkably stable since 2003, with sales between $5.8 billion and $6.1 billion each year (the exception being 2009). For comparison purposes, we have projected the industry at $5.3 billion in 2002, $5.4 billion in 2003, $5.8 billion in 2004, $6.1 billion in 2005 (an all-time high), $5.8 billion in 2006, $6.0 billion in 2007, $6.0 billion in 2008, $5.6 billion in 2009, $6 billion in 2010, and $6 billion in 2011."

    As you can see the industry has no meaningful growth in dollars. It ebbs and flows but remains fairly constant with no appreciable growth. When you add inflation to the equation the market in dollars is actually shrinking.

  11. #311
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    Just because walmart sells more bikes doesn't mean the industry is growing .
    All one has to do is think abot the number of manufactures that are now reduced to supplying dept store bikes. Unit numbers may have risin but unit price is plummeting. This is to be expected though when the general public demands the cheapest possibble crap.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales
    The U.S. is not the entire industry.

  13. #313
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    of course that is the case for the U.S.. We are lazy and would rather drive.

  14. #314
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    ^+1

  15. #315
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    Dude come on, giving your own thread a +1 is some pretty weak jive. That is like slapping yourself five. You can do better than that.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    Dude come on, giving your own thread a +1 is some pretty weak jive. That is like slapping yourself five. You can do better than that.
    Dude come on, that wasn't my post and this isn't my thread.

  17. #317
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    cracks a beer, sits back, and hits refresh...

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    cracks a beer, sits back, and hits refresh...
    Don't forget the popcorn!

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Dude come on, that wasn't my post and this isn't my thread.
    Am I the only one who sees that post 16 is pointed at post 15 with a +1 and that they both have your name on them? If so then I apologize.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    i am curious as to the source of this figure.

    From my own personal experience, that seems doubtful. Americans hardly ever rode bikes except as kids' toys in 1980, or as beach cruisers maybe. Since then there have been a big road bike wave, Floyd and Lance winning the TDF, mountain bikes being "invented" around the beginning of that era, gas prices going up, a rise in persons emphasizing sustainable culture and bike culture, and so on. And the bike prices go up every year, at least for the higher end bikes. If the market couldn't sustain that, you would see deep discounts everywhere. Further, the mountain bikes have become more specialized and there are more niches. The same can be said for road bikes.

    I guess it is true that the biggest demographic, the baby boomers, are getting older and older and pretty soon are going to stop shopping for bikes and instead shop for tennis balls for their walkers, this seems to be balanced by the fact that there are plenty of 50 and 60+ year old riders on the paths and trails.

    There are also a lot of related industries like magazines, clothing makers etc. In 1982 I read about the first mountain bikes in "Action Now Magazine" which was a sort of all sport magazine that was started when Skateboarding Mag went under (hey, I grew up in Huntington Beach!). Now each month I get 2 or 3 different mountain bike mags, and don't read several others.

    So, I am finding this doubtful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^+1
    This is the way it looks from me. Post 316, mine is pointed to post 315, daves4mtb. Which is the way I intended it to be.

  21. #321
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    my earlier post is # 314

  22. #322
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    Wow grizzlyplumber, I thought I was blind.
    Haha jk. But how ....... I don't have the word for it... would you have to be to +1 yourself?
    Does Shawn seem like that kind of a guy?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  23. #323
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    I have seen the post order get messed up before.

  24. #324
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    Hence the jk. But usually the messed up order is universal, isn't it?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  25. #325
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    I would think.

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    Am I the only one who sees that post 16 is pointed at post 15 with a +1 and that they both have your name on them? If so then I apologize.

    You better take a closer look.

    But to answer your question, yes you are the only one seeing what you think you are seeing.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Wow grizzlyplumber, I thought I was blind.
    Haha jk. But how ....... I don't have the word for it... would you have to be to +1 yourself?
    Does Shawn seem like that kind of a guy?
    I obviously stand corrected, to Shawn my most sincere apologies, as to what kind of guy he is, I think that is self evident and everyone here knows the answer to such a silly question. Please carry on.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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  28. #328
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    Many good valid points from rev106's letter all the way to the last posting.

    Being a bike rider since a kid and self mechanic from not much later on, i believe that some improvements made by the "bike industry" are very good and others fade with the test of time.
    Who doesn't love their "quick release" wheels? Great improvement, but, take notice, "nuts" are still seen on many wheels (pun not intended).
    On the other hand, the famous quill stem and Biopace chainrings. For some reason or another, they're basically out of market.

    And the list of sucesses and failures of the "industry" goes on.

    I believe the mountain biker can be well served by technological improvements. It all depends on the rider's needs, budget and mindset. A racer will never have the same equipment needs as a commuter, bmx'er or downhiller.

    My own case now:

    Testing and deciding for myself, reading, asking and keeping very old mags and catalogues proves to be useful to find what works and what fades.

    Gears? -A common question from my peers- I went from one to 26 too many and stopped there, coming back to one. For a time, i was also a "follower" of the "industry" as well, adding gears as time went by. Why one now? I decided to work uphill and regain the feeling of riding as a kid, a very personal thing. Also, spinning out on flats and walking up an ocassional uphill won't make me feel bad.

    Parts, gadgets, add-ons, systems, came on my bike, some stayed, some fell off. But i tried them, deciding which suited my style and which don't. Yes, i had full suspension bikes too.

    I ended up on a singlespeed bike, on a steel frame, rigid, tubeless tires, 9 mm quick release, single piston hydro brakes, 1 1/8" here and outboard bearings there, clips, etc, etc. The best of old and new technology, as it suits my style and needs.

    Yes, i use a helmet, and have only one bike.

    Take technology improvements and use what's needed, just don't overdo it. A bicycle moves on legs, arms and heart.

    May all be well
    Simple, not easy.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    I obviously stand corrected, to Shawn my most sincere apologies, as to what kind of guy he is, I think that is self evident and everyone here knows the answer to such a silly question. Please carry on.
    That was nice man, thanks! + rep for that!

  30. #330
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    I'm just going to go ahead and disagree with the op's view of the bike industry. If you stick to your disipline (cross country, DH, free-ride, etc) standards don't change too much. I consider standards to be things like BB size, steerer tube diameter, handle bar diameter, and so on. Types of bottom brackets, gear setups, and most other parts are merely options for customization.

    I actually think all the different types of mountain bikes (XC, AM, DH...) is encouraging to see. It's a sign that mountain biking is becoming popular enough and is growing to the point where just a "mountain bike" doesn't cut it for everything we use these machines for. Just like the automotive industry. At first all you could buy was a "car." As the industry grew and people developed their individual needs, categories of cars started branching out into sports cars, SUV, trucks, hybrids, etc. This is an exciting time for mountain bikes and I can't wait to see what kind of technology will trickle down into the bikes that I can afford
    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is.

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by balance_fit View Post
    The best of old and new technology, as it suits my style and needs.
    Nice. That's a good conclusion to make. 300 odd posts later, we have a nice place to stop.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  32. #332
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    What I want to know is why do the most expensive mtn bikes cost around $10,000 and the most expensive road bikes are practically double that price? there seems to be far fewer parts on a road bike.

  33. #333
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    More emphasis on light weight. Less is more.

  34. #334
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    Plus, roadies are dumb and will pay more.

    Disclaimer: The above is for entertainment purposes only. And may not reflect the views of the author and/or MTBR.com.

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    What I want to know is why do the most expensive mtn bikes cost around $10,000 and the most expensive road bikes are practically double that price? there seems to be far fewer parts on a road bike.
    Agreed. It is plain dumb. I ride both. My mtb is far more complex than my road bike, yet costs 20% less.

    A generalization here:
    Avg car value at a road race = $42,000
    Avg car value at a mtb race = $24,000

    Also, in my opinion, the difference is much larger between a $2500 mtb and a $5000 mtb than when you compare a $2500 road bike to a $5000 road bike.

    Don't even get me started on the tri scene here in San Diego...

  36. #336
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    Agreed. I think its because mtbing is more mainstream. It appeals more to the common folk.
    If a person wants to bike around town then they'll just get a cruiser or something.
    But you need an MTB to MTB.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  37. #337
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    Hitler. There, I said it.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Hitler. There, I said it.
    Holly crap! Hitler was your grand papi! That's heavy maaaan!

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Holly crap! Hitler was your grand papi! That's heavy maaaan!
    Godwin's Law.

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

    Citing other sources...

    How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

    "6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

    Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
    thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
    virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
    the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (quirk@swcp.com):

    Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
    "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

    Sorry, folks. Nice try, though."
    Check my Site

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev106 View Post
    An open letter to the bike industry

    Dear Bike Industry,

    I’m beginning to feel that you don’t have myself and my fellow rider’s best interest at heart, all you seem to be interested in is creating new “standards” and try to force people to buy them under the auspice that the new “standard” is better than before. I would like to think that most cyclists are a savvy bunch, but we do glom onto new tech with eagerness, a fault that you (the bicycle industry) seems more than happy to exploit.
    Every year there’s a new bottom bracket “standard”. Something becomes a standard once it is in wide, common, and accepted use like a square taper bb. I have never felt the need to put any of these new, false standards on my bike instead of using a tried and true standard. I think you need to think about how you label all of these pointless bottom bracket options out there. The advantages are nominal to the rider, and only serve to create more niche markets and confuse new riders that get overwhelmed by all the “standards” that have been made. Shame on you. The people that can really gain any benefit if at all from any of these alleged improvements are pro racers, and pro races get their bikes and parts for free, we, the majority of the bike buying public have to pay for our stuff. Did my square tape bb suddenly stop working after years of loyal service and 1000’s of miles? No, it did not. My mountain bike is old for sure and my friends that have newer bikes are still behind me just like they are before they had a new bike with all of the new “improvements” in technology, I expected them to leave me in the dust being that I have only 21 speeds and they 30, but alas it did not happen. I also find it funny that I having 21 speeds never once thought I could make this traverse or climb that section of trail if I only had some more gears, and now you try and sell me less gears in the form of a 2 x10 drive train for more money than my 21 gears, do you take me for a fool? Shame on you bike industry. I can go on, how lame and pointless 31.8 bars are and how ugly they look, or how a 200 dollar seat post that drops can’t beat a 10 buck quick release seat post clamp and to take the 10 seconds to take in the view before you drop in is worth way more than another lever do-hickey on your bike, are you really that lazy? And the 29 wheels, really? Every time I see some poor 5.5” guy on a 29er, I just feel like the bike industry is made up of carneys and we are it’s willing dupes. And these massive head tube bearings they look like the wheel bearings in my van, there’s no way you can convince me I “need” that junk. At some point I just feel like you think I’m an idiot they will buy anything that you put before me, I think you think so little of us as a group that one can keep changing things endlessly chasing one’s tail in the pointless quest of improving something that needs no improvement, even the bike magazines are getting weary of your cavalcade of falsehoods, they are usually your ever loyal heralds but that is even changing.
    I turned away from mountain biking magazines for few years and when I came back, mountain bikes no longer existed. There are xc, all mountain, free ride, downhill, etc. but there are no “mountain bikes” anymore. I still own and use a mountain bike, I understand that by creating labels and slicing the pie in ever-smaller slices you can perhaps sucker someone into buying a bunch of bikes that only get used for one type of trail. I guess that’s clever marketing and sales go up, but I think in doing so you alienate the beginner that will certainly be confused and intimidated by all the jargon and techo-babble when they go to their local shop and want a “mountain bike” Shame on you bike industry, I think you need a time-out to think about what you’ve done.
    For me it is impossible not to agree. Mtb fans are teased over every limit of reasonableness.
    Stupidity and conformity are practically incurable disease in the era of marketing. I remember that marketing is the art of making us buy things we do not need with money we do not have. Of course there are people with low self-esteem that they need to feel integrated and always defend the new features offered by the companies.
    Mtb magazines are a joke all over the world, to make entering one of them in a home is an insult to the intelligence of everyone.

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Godwin's Law.

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

    Citing other sources...

    How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

    "6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

    Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
    thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
    virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
    the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (quirk@swcp.com):

    Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
    "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

    Sorry, folks. Nice try, though."
    This is a bit much. Although highly consistent with Godwin's Law.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Godwin's Law.

    Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

    Citing other sources...

    How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ

    "6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

    Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
    thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
    virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
    the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (quirk@swcp.com):

    Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
    "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

    Sorry, folks. Nice try, though."
    Just to make it clear, I wasn't the one who brought up Hitler.

  43. #343
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    Warp knows what I'm talking about.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by toscano View Post
    For me it is impossible not to agree. Mtb fans are teased over every limit of reasonableness.
    Stupidity and conformity are practically incurable disease in the era of marketing. I remember that marketing is the art of making us buy things we do not need with money we do not have. Of course there are people with low self-esteem that they need to feel integrated and always defend the new features offered by the companies.
    Mtb magazines are a joke all over the world, to make entering one of them in a home is an insult to the intelligence of everyone.
    You're over thinking it. I like to ride. I like to ride well-built, technologically advanced bikes. If I was poor I'd go on Bikes Direct and stretch my dollar as far as I could on an inexpensive but serviceable bike; as I have money I like to spend it on things I like...the Lord knows that between car payments, auto insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, property tax, income tax to support the entitled, the fat, the lazy, and the stupid I certainly spend a lot on things I don't like.

    Mountain biking, by the way, is the opposite of conformity, at least where I live. Nobody understands it, they think spending more than a hundred bucks for a bike is insane, and chicks definitely don't dig it....my girlfriend for her part tolerates it but if I was the assistant manager at Taco Bell she probably wouldn't.

    Additionally, while it's true that progress in technology is incremental, a high-end bike in 2013 is vastly better than one from 1993. By better I mean faster, more rugged, lighter, and just more fun to ride.

    Anti-conformity is itself a kind of conformity, by the way. Avant garde is just as reflexive and provincial as normality. I care what people think about me, I adhere to social norms, I am not a rebel or vastly different in outlook from the majority of people which gives me the freedom to do things that I like without worrying about image.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    You're over thinking it. I like to ride. I like to ride well-built, technologically advanced bikes. If I was poor I'd go on Bikes Direct and stretch my dollar as far as I could on an inexpensive but serviceable bike; as I have money I like to spend it on things I like...the Lord knows that between car payments, auto insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, property tax, income tax to support the entitled, the fat, the lazy, and the stupid I certainly spend a lot on things I don't like.

    Mountain biking, by the way, is the opposite of conformity, at least where I live. Nobody understands it, they think spending more than a hundred bucks for a bike is insane, and chicks definitely don't dig it....my girlfriend for her part tolerates it but if I was the assistant manager at Taco Bell she probably wouldn't.

    Additionally, while it's true that progress in technology is incremental, a high-end bike in 2013 is vastly better than one from 1993. By better I mean faster, more rugged, lighter, and just more fun to ride.

    Anti-conformity is itself a kind of conformity, by the way. Avant garde is just as reflexive and provincial as normality. I care what people think about me, I adhere to social norms, I am not a rebel or vastly different in outlook from the majority of people which gives me the freedom to do things that I like without worrying about image.
    My friend, you hit the nail right on the head and drove it all the way in!

    The OP said something about forcing us to buy stuff. We are not forced to buy anything. It's a choice. I'm glad to have the choice to buy bikes and parts that are better then what I bought last. Even if it's only a little better. It's my choice to buy them or not, and for me to decide if they are enough of an improvement to buy. And if I do my due diligence I will know what to buy and what not to buy.

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by toscano View Post
    For me it is impossible not to agree. Mtb fans are teased over every limit of reasonableness.
    Stupidity and conformity are practically incurable disease in the era of marketing. I remember that marketing is the art of making us buy things we do not need with money we do not have. Of course there are people with low self-esteem that they need to feel integrated and always defend the new features offered by the companies.
    Mtb magazines are a joke all over the world, to make entering one of them in a home is an insult to the intelligence of everyone.
    yes but marketing is just a polite word for propoganda. Companies are not advertising a cool fizzy drink, its a sexy ass on the beach. or something like that.

    Have you seen the latest ads for the shimano Zee line? They don't even care about the product, its all about the image, all propoganda, sorry, polite company here, use the word propoganda your mind instantly goes to Hitler and Goebbels, I mean marketing.

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    yes but marketing is just a polite word for propoganda. Companies are not advertising a cool fizzy drink, its a sexy ass on the beach. or something like that.

    Have you seen the latest ads for the shimano Zee line? They don't even care about the product, its all about the image, all propoganda, sorry, polite company here, use the word propoganda your mind instantly goes to Hitler and Goebbels, I mean marketing.
    You should be smart enough to filter out the crap.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You should be smart enough to filter out the crap.
    It's not the fluffy ads that worry me, most people see through all that, it's the way people blindly believe whatever ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN etc show them.

  49. #349
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    Godwin's law wins again! Marketing, advertising and salesmen do not sell products, they sell emotions. They don't sell you the thing, they sell you what you want the thing to do for you. In most cases, that boils down to getting laid.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    It's not the fluffy ads that worry me, most people see through all that, it's the way people blindly believe whatever ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN etc show them.
    You forgot to mention Fox.

  51. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Godwin's law wins again! Marketing, advertising and salesmen do not sell products, they sell emotions. They don't sell you the thing, they sell you what you want the thing to do for you. In most cases, that boils down to getting laid.
    In general, yes. MTB parts, not so much. I am looking at all the many ads on this very web page, and none of them look like a Gillette razor ad. Ads for geeks is all I see. Maybe the marketing managers for bike component companies are poorly paid, or maybe they think we are too brainy to fall for ads with buxom lasses in them.

  52. #352
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    Agreed. I like choices. The more I use trigger shifters, the less I like them. They put my hands in an uncomfortable position. I like the concept of twisters better. Alas! Shimano makes no respectable ones.
    So if I want twisters I'm gonna have to switch out my entire drive train (fd and crank excluded)!
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Agreed. I like choices. The more I use trigger shifters, the less I like them. They put my hands in an uncomfortable position. I like the concept of twisters better. Alas! Shimano makes no respectable ones.
    So if I want twisters I'm gonna have to switch out my entire drive train (fd and crank excluded)!
    I used to be one of those twister guys, for years. Then I tried a set of SRAM triggers with Shimano derailers. I'll never go back to twisting.

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    What combo did you use?
    Don't Shimano and SRAM have different pull ratios?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  55. #355
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    holy groanin' god, this thread is still going?

    i hated grip shift. sachs made grip shifters that felt really nice but worked like (expletive) with shimano derailleurs.

    i'm pretty happy with the SRAM/SRAM i'm using now. it's not by choice, they're just what my new bikes were spec'd with. as a matter of fact, i like the SRAM triggers better than the nineties-era shimano rapid fire on my alibi which i thought were a vast improvement over the thumbshifters and twisters i'd used previously..

  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    What combo did you use?
    Don't Shimano and SRAM have different pull ratios?
    SRAM Rocket and Attack trigger shifters are made for Shimano derailers. I have three sets of them and they all work very well.

  57. #357
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    Holy shiz. Unsubscribed.
    Last edited by wmac; 12-06-2012 at 11:04 PM.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

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    I don't think I'll be getting attacks anytime soon. The 1 to 1 thing gives easier shifting, compared to shimano.
    The main reason I don't like shimano shifters is because of the index finger thing. I can dump a cassette shifting up, but using my index finger on the trails freaks me out. I realize that some higher end ones are convertible, but not the ones in my price range.
    Sram thumb only shifters are nice, but I can't dump a cassette. I don't think that's worth it though. I may give them a try for right hand, but probably not.
    Twisters allow for much easier and much safer shifting, IMHO, because its just a flick of the wrist vs having to let one of your fingers off the bars.
    Def my next shifters will be twisters, provided that the industry doesn't declare them obsolete like friction shifters.
    Hopefully there will be plentiful options forever. Not everybody is alike.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavyRay View Post
    You forgot to mention Fox.
    just scared that a fan of Fox would come after me with a gun..........

  60. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    You're over thinking it. I like to ride. I like to ride well-built, technologically advanced bikes. If I was poor I'd go on Bikes Direct and stretch my dollar as far as I could on an inexpensive but serviceable bike; as I have money I like to spend it on things I like...the Lord knows that between car payments, auto insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, property tax, income tax to support the entitled, the fat, the lazy, and the stupid I certainly spend a lot on things I don't like.

    Mountain biking, by the way, is the opposite of conformity, at least where I live. Nobody understands it, they think spending more than a hundred bucks for a bike is insane, and chicks definitely don't dig it....my girlfriend for her part tolerates it but if I was the assistant manager at Taco Bell she probably wouldn't.

    Additionally, while it's true that progress in technology is incremental, a high-end bike in 2013 is vastly better than one from 1993. By better I mean faster, more rugged, lighter, and just more fun to ride.

    Anti-conformity is itself a kind of conformity, by the way. Avant garde is just as reflexive and provincial as normality. I care what people think about me, I adhere to social norms, I am not a rebel or vastly different in outlook from the majority of people which gives me the freedom to do things that I like without worrying about image.

    The real question is if technological progress offers us real benefits or not.
    Certainly bike maintenance and reliability are a big problem. And when you spend a lot of money you do not want problems, right?
    In ten years many things have changed, it is true, but the feeling of being mocked, for me has increased.
    Conformity and nonconformity are concepts near and far at the same time.
    Here in Europe I guess that as you spend more money than you are intelligent and integrated into the system, not only about bikes.
    I am an expert about useless things: I have a store where I sell gold and watches ...
    A few minutes ago I sold a gold ring to a woman who would have something else to think about, the ring does not change her life but so goes the world ...
    To spend money for someone can be a justification for a lifestyle and an hard job.
    I remember a boy with an old bmx, rode with me and my friends, we were younger, we used to have long and challenging rides. he did not need full frame or carbon ...
    Last edited by toscano; 12-07-2012 at 04:55 AM.

  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I don't think I'll be getting attacks anytime soon. The 1 to 1 thing gives easier shifting, compared to shimano.
    The main reason I don't like shimano shifters is because of the index finger thing. I can dump a cassette shifting up, but using my index finger on the trails freaks me out. I realize that some higher end ones are convertible, but not the ones in my price range.
    Sram thumb only shifters are nice, but I can't dump a cassette. I don't think that's worth it though. I may give them a try for right hand, but probably not.
    Twisters allow for much easier and much safer shifting, IMHO, because its just a flick of the wrist vs having to let one of your fingers off the bars.
    Def my next shifters will be twisters, provided that the industry doesn't declare them obsolete like friction shifters.
    Hopefully there will be plentiful options forever. Not everybody is alike.
    I have always felt the twister to be in the way. And I have had some accidental shifts. I also don't like having like half a good grip and the rest whatever sram wants me to have.
    I aint never going back to twisters. I shift up with the thumb and down with the thumb, I love it.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  62. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Hopefully there will be plentiful options forever. Not everybody is alike.
    I rest my case....


    EDIT: I quoted myself to emphasize my point, that some obviously overlooked.
    Last edited by sauprankul; 12-07-2012 at 03:09 PM.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I rest my case....
    Quoting yourself? That's like masterbating.

  64. #364
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    Quoting me without my consent? That's like raping.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  65. #365
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    The problem with all this (un)liked technological 'progress' is more of an issue for store bought bikes. If you are building your own you can pick and choose.

    For instance, my Salsa had state of the art XTR 975 brakes in '09 because I chose them. The same bike also had a set of square taper Middleburn cranks, and 5 bolt 94 bcd rings.

    I use what I like and disregard the rest, otherwise the 'marketing machine' would bother me a lot more than it does.

    I can pick and choose; the other bike just got 9 speed two months back.

    10 speed, I could care less.

    Drew
    occasional cyclist

  66. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Quoting me without my consent? That's like raping.
    You enjoyed it so it doesn't count.

  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I don't think I'll be getting attacks anytime soon. The 1 to 1 thing gives easier shifting, compared to shimano.
    The main reason I don't like shimano shifters is because of the index finger thing. I can dump a cassette shifting up, but using my index finger on the trails freaks me out. I realize that some higher end ones are convertible, but not the ones in my price range.
    Sram thumb only shifters are nice, but I can't dump a cassette. I don't think that's worth it though. I may give them a try for right hand, but probably not.
    Twisters allow for much easier and much safer shifting, IMHO, because its just a flick of the wrist vs having to let one of your fingers off the bars.
    Def my next shifters will be twisters, provided that the industry doesn't declare them obsolete like friction shifters.
    Hopefully there will be plentiful options forever. Not everybody is alike.
    I absolutely hate SRAM shifters with a passion. They are designed for dyslexic people, using the thumb to upshift and downshift is not right, you can't execute fast shitfts either. I have both (shimano and sram shifters), and the sram totally blows. I've tried to live with it for 2 yrs, but I just can't, to me it's not natural. You can't position a sram shifter in the optimal position so your thumb can fall on both paddles. Having your thumb fall on the upshift paddle is great, then you have to reroute your thumb to get to the downshift paddle, not cool. It's not an optimal system if you need to take your thumb/finger off one paddle to get to the other paddle. I'll go with ergonomics this time.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-07-2012 at 08:25 PM.

  68. #368
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    Do you really ride with your fingers ready to shift every moment? I don't.

    I have Saint on one bike and X9 on the other. I prefer the X9. Thumbs for shifting, index finger for braking.

    In the end, I'd say it's personal preference. I don't think one is inherently superior.

  69. #369
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    Yeah I do, constantly. Well, my fingers/thumb fall to the paddles naturally (with shimano).
    What seperates them is the ergo's.

  70. #370
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    Back to the point. The industry is doing the right thing by giving people several choices.
    Whether you conceive them to be "must haves" or not is up to you.
    @sv11 I think you mean thumb-thumb shifters, not SRAM shifters.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  71. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Yeah I do, constantly. Well, my fingers/thumb fall to the paddles naturally (with shimano).
    Lets see. 1 finger on up lever, 1 finger on down lever, 1-2 fingers on brake lever.
    That's leaves your pinky to hold on to the bars.

    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Lets see. 1 finger on up lever, 1 finger on down lever, 1-2 fingers on brake lever.
    That's leaves your pinky to hold on to the bars.

    erm no. I use my index finger to brake, reason being is that i dont normally upshift while braking, but I do downshift when braking. I never put my finger on the brake lever unless im about to use it.
    I don't know whats holding back sram/shimano from making a 1 paddle shifter, it's not like they don't have the technology, resources or knowledge.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-07-2012 at 09:18 PM.

  73. #373
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    Twas a joke, mate.
    How would one use a one paddle shifter?

    EDIT: Oh kinda like an indexed thumbie?

    And did somebody hit wmac for his Hitler comment?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  74. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Twas a joke, mate.
    How would one use a one paddle shifter?

    EDIT: Oh kinda like an indexed thumbie?
    Yeah just having 1 paddle, push/pull indexed (or friction) method, below the bar.

  75. #375
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    I guess.
    But there probably a reason neither has made one yet.
    And there also a reason why SRAM still makes twisters.
    And both SRAM and shimano make thumb thumb shutters.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  76. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I absolutely hate SRAM shifters with a passion. They are designed for dyslexic people, using the thumb to upshift and downshift is not right, you can't execute fast shitfts either. I have both (shimano and sram shifters), and the sram totally blows. I've tried to live with it for 2 yrs, but I just can't, to me it's not natural. You can't position a sram shifter in the optimal position so your thumb can fall on both paddles. Having your thumb fall on the upshift paddle is great, then you have to reroute your thumb to get to the downshift paddle, not cool. It's not an optimal system if you need to take your thumb/finger off one paddle to get to the other paddle. I'll go with ergonomics this time.
    FYI I friend of mine bought a scott scale and wanted me to have a look at it. I adjusted the whole bike and made sure everything was safe (such as the headset with 5mm play!!!).

    And then we came to the shifters, shimano xt or similar, the ones thet you can operate both with your thumbs and the index finger. He really liked the index finger shifting, but I somehow convinced him thumb/thumb is much better since you only use your thumb. I adjusted the angle of the shifter to make this easier and I heard no complaints about it since.

    I'd go so far as to say thumb/thumb shifting is one of the most revolutionary things that has ever happend to mtbs. I hate twisters with a passion, but index/thumb is like one ppm away in the retarded category if you ask me. And this also happens to be the only thing of any kind of value/improvement to the riders that sram actually contributed to mountainbiking.

    But its big if you ask me. Its about the same level of importance as hydro disc brakes. IMO.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  77. #377
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    For the same reasons that upside down forks, disc brakes, liquid cooling, progressive suspension linkages etc. are standard in the motocross industry and fuel injection, disc brakes, variable valve timing, power steering, ABS, stability/traction control etc. are standard in the auto industry, Tapered headtubes, hydro brakes, disc brakes in general, air spring forks, thru axles, etc. are becoming a new standard in the bike industry. Imagine driving a carburated car, with drums on all fours, with a powerband to try to match with every shift from an unsynced transmission with a goofy clutch, that handles like a boat. Progress sounds like a good idea now eh?

  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by caid View Post
    For the same reasons that upside down forks, disc brakes, liquid cooling, progressive suspension linkages etc. are standard in the motocross industry and fuel injection, disc brakes, variable valve timing, power steering, ABS, stability/traction control etc. are standard in the auto industry, Tapered headtubes, hydro brakes, disc brakes in general, air spring forks, thru axles, etc. are becoming a new standard in the bike industry. Imagine driving a carburated car, with drums on all fours, with a powerband to try to match with every shift from an unsynced transmission with a goofy clutch, that handles like a boat. Progress sounds like a good idea now eh?
    I drove a 69 bug as my daily driver for ten years until 07, worked just fine, was simple, cheap and very durable, I also put over 200k on a 68 powerwagon only replacing Ujoints, Alternators, fuel pumps, tires and of course belts, to date the bug is the one car I absolutely miss and probably will get another for a main driver.
    Now I have a nice newer Tundra that I cannot do anything to and any repairs run into the 1000s, no argument it is much more comfortable and quiet, but really I got along just fine previously and had I never upgraded to a truck I am afraid to use as a truck, my pocket book would have been quit a bit happier.

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    The 2x10 or 1x11 systems really do not suit me. I will take a 3x10, but would rather have a 3x7 or 3x8 set with 28/38/48 or 26/36/46 x 11-24 or 11-28 and cranks in 185

    29" wheels are nice, each wheel size has its advantages. Unfortunately, I do not see that many 26ers out there, sure a few specialty brands but it seems many of the main line companies have all but abandoned them.

    The new tapered head tube is great and should have been done along time ago.

  80. #380
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    I like the versatility of my 3x9. I just wish someone made a decent 9 speed 11-36 cassette, instead of 11-34.

  81. #381
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    I agree with the tenor of the OP's letter, but I do like my 29 inch wheels and mech disc brakes. 700c is really nothing new, and IMO disc brakes are safer than v-brakes, etc for MTBing.

    Suspension, carbon bits, dropper seatposts, $1,000 wheelsets, 10 speed group, and all the other stuff I can do without....it is not necessary to have a good time on the trail.

  82. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by webb-o View Post
    Suspension, carbon bits, dropper seatposts, $1,000 wheelsets, 10 speed group, and all the other stuff I can do without....it is not necessary to have a good time on the trail.
    Ha! Go say that in the AM, XC and WW sections and see what you get!
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  83. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I like the versatility of my 3x9. I just wish someone made a decent 9 speed 11-36 cassette, instead of 11-34.
    try lucky nino..i had an 11-36 ti cassette from him. worked well imo.. i did have to have him send a better 11t because the initial one was milled wrong.
    Last edited by rydbyk; 12-13-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by webb-o View Post

    Suspension, carbon bits, dropper seatposts, $1,000 wheelsets, 10 speed group, and all the other stuff I can do without....it is not necessary to have a good time on the trail.
    Yep, not necessary to have a good time. But it all makes my time much gooder. Lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    try lucky nino..i had an 11-36 ti cassette from him. worked well imo.. i did have to have him send a better 11t because the initial one was milled wrong.
    Sounds expensive!

  85. #385
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    I think there also one Shimano 12 - 36 cassette. HG 61, SLX level, I believe.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  86. #386
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    ^ Iv'e seen that. It's pretty heavy. I would like XT level or better, but 12-36 would be fine.

  87. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Yep, not necessary to have a good time. But it all makes my time much gooder. Lol!



    Sounds expensive!
    yep. $210. XTR price. i raced it for a season and sold it for about $150. not bad.

  88. #388
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    Ah, Rev, you're missing a little sunshine in your life, I think...

    I have an idea. Go look at your bike in the garage, on it's hook or where ever you keep it. Now go watch some of the television coverage of the RedBull Rampage that just happened.

    If you can't find it on television (which you probably can't because I'm guessing you've got a 15" black and white Zenith from 1981, right? And, of course, it isn't compatible with HDMI and HD or whatever other artificial "standard" those blood-suckers in the cable tv/electronics industry have cooked up to rook you and me out of our hard earned dollars! ) just head to your local grocery store's magazine aisle. Any one of the shiny, ad-stuffed MTB magazines on sale there will feature multiple full-bleed images of guys hurling themselves off absolutely massive cliffs on... wait for it... mountain bikes.

    Now picture one of those guys doing that stuff on your trusty Bridgestone MB-1 from 1990, or whatever it is that you ride. Doesn't really work, does it?

    People push boundaries. It's just what we do. Especially young, foolish people with no sense of self preservation who want to get laid by pretty girls they'll invariably meet at the "after party" of the Rampage. Even in Utah. The kids want to go bigger and go faster. Heck, I want to go bigger and faster and I'm 42!

    People are doing things today on mountain bikes that were simply unimaginable ten or twenty years ago. The marketplace responds.

    Smart engineers and marketing people tasked with selling the products produced by their respective bicycle companies look out at this glorious circus of bike riding that we've all created and work furiously to come up with ideas and products to help us do those crazy things better, easier or faster. If their products are worthy, either by being well engineered, lighter, novel or sometimes just really shiny and cool looking, they find their place in the market and people purchase them.

    This is progress in our little corner of the world. You are not required to participate. There is no one checking your bike before you go out for a ride to make sure that you have the latest in mountain bike technology.

    But begrudging others their luscious suspension, carbon fiber and dropper posts is just bad form, Rev. We are having a ton of fun riding our amazing bikes up and down terrain that I don't think you are going to be able to enjoy on your older bike. You get to vote with your wallet, same as the rest of us, but when you attempt to call the "bike industry" to the carpet for trying to make a decent living, you just make yourself look like a spiteful grouch.

    Enjoy the ride, Rev! And maybe borrow a buddy's over-engineered miracle bike and see what all the fuss is about.

    Yours,

    Pete

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