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  1. #151
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    Someone seems a bit butthurt...
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  2. #152
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    I pretty much stayed away from this thread, but since I just shared this thought elsewhere, this is probably a more appropriate spot:

    Every bike forum I've read has way too much complaining from people about 'the industry' using 'marketing' to try and take their money and make them buy something new (29ers, 650b, tapered steerers, the list goes on). But there are a lot of people looking to buy at any given point, and besides I would guess the majority of bike sales are people buying new complete bikes, rather than enthusiasts building up a frame. I don't remember people complaining about having to buy a new car when side curtain airbags or traction control became common, but any advance in the bike industry has people screaming about being gouged rather than thinking "yeah, that might be cool when I get my next bike in a few years."
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I pretty much stayed away from this thread, but since I just shared this thought elsewhere, this is probably a more appropriate spot:

    Every bike forum I've read has way too much complaining from people about 'the industry' using 'marketing' to try and take their money and make them buy something new (29ers, 650b, tapered steerers, the list goes on). But there are a lot of people looking to buy at any given point, and besides I would guess the majority of bike sales are people buying new complete bikes, rather than enthusiasts building up a frame. I don't remember people complaining about having to buy a new car when side curtain airbags or traction control became common, but any advance in the bike industry has people screaming about being gouged rather than thinking "yeah, that might be cool when I get my next bike in a few years."
    I've never had to use the features of a seat belt, and I've never had to use the features of ABS, yet I get to pay for them, because of the masses being idiots that are irresponsible drivers in the driving conditions out there. You can't fix stupid, be it people, or operators, with engineering feats mandated into place making vehicles more and more expensive for the masses.

    I say, let Darwins Law sort it out, and leave all the crap bells and whistles off of our cars, morons shouldn't be driving in the first place, driving is a privelege, not a right. Leave it as an option for those that want it, not mandated by a Nanny State government.

  4. #154
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    Sure, but even the best drivers can and do have collisions beyond their control. Besides, that's irrelevant to the point I was making. Replace safety features with convenience or performance improvements in cars; my point is the same.
    "Back off, man. I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman

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  5. #155
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    Obviously the OP has a hard time understanding that the bike industry is a Business. Yes, to make money. Otherwise, no innovation, no new bikes, no specialties, nothing. Marketing? Yes, some of it BS, some of it actually works. You can also thank the pros that have pushed the sport to the limit.

    I personally thank God for 29ers. I started road bike racing and in 5 years I fell behind in MTB technology. The only thing that saves me are fully rigid 29ers and that is now also tricky with oversized forks and BB30. That I do not like. CArbon wheels on a MTB? Humm Dont know. I still nurse the carbon wheels on my roadbike.

    So Thank you bike industry for:
    Tubless tires
    29ers
    Carbon Forks
    Rear shock platform and brains
    Super light hydro disk breaks
    Carbon Fiber frames
    Carbon Fiber Parts
    Sit and spin my ass...

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta View Post
    So Thank you bike industry for:
    Tubless tires
    29ers
    Carbon Forks
    Rear shock platform and brains
    Super light hydro disk breaks
    Carbon Fiber frames
    Carbon Fiber Parts
    Sounds like a scary ride...a 29" carbon frame 5" travel bike with a rigid carbon fork, ultra light brakes, tubeless tires and carbon bits holding it all together.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  7. #157
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    So OP, with this type of reasoning, you are basically saying that once the bicycle was invented, all evolution or change should have stopped. Or is it that all evolution of the bicycle should have stopped once you bought your, "mountain bike"? For me, I can't wait to see what the next 20 years has in store for the mountain bike, which ever type of mountain bike I decide to buy, or not to buy.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Sounds like a scary ride...a 29" carbon frame 5" travel bike with a rigid carbon fork, ultra light brakes, tubeless tires and carbon bits holding it all together.
    That is funny!
    Sit and spin my ass...

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I don't remember people complaining about having to buy a new car when side curtain airbags or traction control became common
    Actually, I wish you could find cars without airbags and all that fancy crap they force you buy on new cars. Not that I don't like that stuff, but it would be nice if you could get a decent new car for under $10k otd
    I don't mind that is is available to have if you want it, but in many cases we are forced to get it if we want a new car.

    Difference with the bike industry is that you are not forced to buy any of that stuff.
    If you want a basic rigid bike with cantilever bikes and a steel frame you can still buy one and get it cheap. If you don't like the advances, then stick with what you have and let those who do want improvements buy them.

  10. #160
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    Like anything else, cycling is a big business. In order for companies to remain solvent, they need to sell their product. Providing 'new', yet maybe unnecessary products give them the opportunity to bring in their needed capital.

    No one forces us to buy. We're all suckers to some degree!

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCollector View Post
    No one forces us to buy.
    See this is where I disagree.

    It would be nice if the new stuff, was just added to the list of options.
    The problem is that standards are hardly standards anymore, so spares and wear items are pretty specific.
    This is all good and fine, till the standards change, so spares and wear items are becoming obsolete, forcing us to bin a bike that otherwise is still good.

    A good example would be, that finding a high quality 8sp cassette, is close to impossible by now. So a perfectly good XTR 8sp drivetrain is pretty much for the bin.


    Magura

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    See this is where I disagree.

    It would be nice if the new stuff, was just added to the list of options.
    The problem is that standards are hardly standards anymore, so spares and wear items are pretty specific.
    This is all good and fine, till the standards change, so spares and wear items are becoming obsolete, forcing us to bin a bike that otherwise is still good.

    A good example would be, that finding a high quality 8sp cassette, is close to impossible by now. So a perfectly good XTR 8sp drivetrain is pretty much for the bin.


    Magura
    See, this is where I disagree:

    8 speed cassette in Mountain Bike Parts | eBay

  13. #163
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    OP: more people will read your post(s) if you break them up into easy-to-read paragraphs...

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    See, this is where I disagree:

    8 speed cassette in Mountain Bike Parts | eBay
    Which in the cases i have seen so far, has turned out very expensive

    But yes, they naturally can be found, just not at a cost that has anything to do with the reality usually.

    Used ones are plenty, but buying a used cassette, is at best like buying a lottery ticket.

    Besides, having to hunt NOS on Efraud is not my idea of having things available.
    It is a far cry from not getting issues for no good reason, from the industry changing "standards" in a rapid pace to keep peoples bikes becoming obsolete, just for the sake of making them obsolete.

    It would have been easy for the industry to have kept the compatibility all the way from 7sp. They just saw an opportunity to create a latent need.


    Magura

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Dear Redline and Profile,

    Thanks for pushing splined cranksets in the early 80's. Square taper blew then and it still does.

    -The guy who stopped reading the rant and rolled his eyes when he got to "square taper".
    I didn't even start reading, I opened the thread, saw the massive run on sentence and moved to the responses.

    Mountain bikes, and all bikes for that matter have never been standard. To think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of the past.

    If you've been intimately involved with bikes for any length of time, you know this.
    Disclaimer: I no longer fix bikes for a living.
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  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy View Post
    I've never had to use the features of a seat belt
    You've never stopped so suddenly that your seatbelt was keeping you in the seat? What about your passenger? I think you underestimate the restraining of a seatbelt. Never had to quickly stop or slow down for someone in front? You probably weren't concentrating on the seatbelt, because it was holding you in place and keeping you from being pushed towards the wheel. Sure, you haven't used it in a crash while spinning through the air, but I think your life and experience in a car would still be quite different if there weren't any. We'd be constantly trying to brace ourselves against something when we slow down. I know I sure like to test my brakes.
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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    See this is where I disagree.

    It would be nice if the new stuff, was just added to the list of options.
    The problem is that standards are hardly standards anymore, so spares and wear items are pretty specific.
    This is all good and fine, till the standards change, so spares and wear items are becoming obsolete, forcing us to bin a bike that otherwise is still good.

    A good example would be, that finding a high quality 8sp cassette, is close to impossible by now. So a perfectly good XTR 8sp drivetrain is pretty much for the bin.


    Magura
    I don't think that's really practical. Maybe you do have a "perfectly good 8spd drivetrain", but derailer springs wear, the pivots and their bushings wear, pulleys wear, the rings wear, the freewheel carrier gets scored, shifters wear, detents wear down, and so on. Some of these are replaceable, but this far down the line an 8spd cassette is the least of most people's 8spd worries, and if you happen to have all the other parts in pristine condition, well that's just an anomaly.

    Where you should be thanking the manufacturers is that they use the same width hub and BB standards, for the most part.

    You said you have to "bin your bike", what is wrong with it, besides the drivetrain? 1.125" steerer? 73 or 68mm BB? 135mm hub? And so on? That doesn't sound like it's obsolete. It sounds like you are complaining about wear-items, things that are never intended to be "lifetime" components in the first place. If one does sneak through, then it's an anomaly, not the standard.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  18. #168
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    In response to OP. as a consumer, you have a right to feel that way, and the right to express it. However, as someone else here mentioned, the bike industry is out there not just for your enjoyment/convenience, but to make MOOLAH. They need to get paid. And if bikes were made so that they lasted forever without obsoletion, then people would hold onto their rigid steel bikes with center pull cantis.

    Progress is good, most of the time. I like my disk brakes and my thread less headset and dual compound tires. I like having 24 speeds. And this one I don't get: what's your beef with 31.8 bars? You may think they look ugly, but mine look sick! And I drool over technologies like black box motion control and brain. We live in an industrialized world, and you can try and hold onto the past, but someday the industry will leave you hanging. you may kick butt with your bike. But have you tried kicking butt on a more recent bike? It's easier.

    You mentioned the square taper bb. It is widely accepted that sq tp is inferior to other standards. It flexes and is heavy. In response to that, Shimano created its proprietary Octalink. It sucked because the bearings were too small (or something). So they created Octalink V2. Other crank/bb manufacturers were mad that Shimano made a proprietary bb, and they wanted splines too. I.S.I.S. was born. RF, FSA and I believe SRAM all support ISIS. But people wanted to do better. They needed external bearings. And thus was born the 2 piece crank. Press fit was created by trek for even more rigidity and lightness.

    Square taper, octa, octa v2, ISIS, external bearing, and Press fit.
    Seems like a lot of places to screw up, but feel blessed. At least they all use 68mm bb shells with English thread (ISO) (except for pf, which is screwy IMHO). You can get any one of these at any time. The 68 x 30 English thread has survived a long time. You may still want a UN 55 or w/e but let us have our x types and hollow techs please. The bike industry doesn't force kool aid down everyone's throats. it asks the majority if they like it. If they do, then we have called obsoletion of old stuff ourselves.
    Last edited by sauprankul; 11-25-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    ...
    Press fit was created by trek for even more rigidity and lightness.
    The bike industry doesn't force kool aid down everyone's throats. it asks the majority if they like it..
    No. They make changes to cut their production time & costs. Many changes have occurred recently, which I feel is a result of their attempt to mass-market carbon. IME, Press-fit is a PIA, and a deterrent to buying a new bike/frame.
    Anyone who cross-threaded has bigger issues, should rely on their LBS, become a lemming, and increase industry profits.
    No thanks, sheeple.


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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post

    You mentioned the square taper bb. It is widely accepted that sq tp is inferior to other standards. It flexes and is heavy. In response to that, Shimano created its proprietary Octalink. It sucked because the bearings were too small (or something). So they created Octalink V2. Other crank/bb manufacturers were mad that Shimano made a proprietary bb, and they wanted splines too. I.S.I.S. was born. RF, FSA and I believe SRAM all support ISIS. But people wanted to do better. They needed external bearings. And thus was born the 2 piece crank. Press fit was created by trek for even more rigidity and lightness.
    That's close, but not quite right. Shimano with the octalink 1 system had a pretty good system, not as strong as the external BB system, but a good step up. They used two sets of bearings, one set of needle bearing inside, and then some fashion of ball/roller bearings on the outside. They patented it. To compete, the others got together and did ISIS, but there was a fatal flaw. Because shimano had that needle bearing tucked in there, they had a much stronger and more reliable system. The ISIS never lived up to the reliability of the equivalent shimano system because there simply wasn't enough space to cram a regular bearing in there and the needle-setup was patented, until they came out with some of the "gigapipe DH" type ones that had double-bearings stuffed in the ends, and those weighed a ton due to the design compromise. The eventual shimano external BB did two important things for this system (and some other side benefits), it made it even stronger and better able to cope with modern riding, and it got rid of the taper-interface. The taper inteface was still being used on the octalink V1, as well as ISIS. This is where Race Face and Truvativ had really never caught up, because even when they were using external BBs, they were still using a taper inteface that wore every time you took them on and off.

    Other side benefits of the shimano external BBs include being able to pry up the dust seal and regrease the bearings, buying new bearings for extremely cheap ($15 at enduroforkseals.com), and of course working in most every "old" bike out there.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  21. #171
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    Sorry if my info wasn't totally accurate, should have had a disclaimer. The point was to show there was a REASON why all those bottom bracket "standards" exist. They aren't just trying to get more money from you, they are actually making better bikes, believe it or not.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Sorry if my info wasn't totally accurate, should have had a disclaimer. The point was to show there was a REASON why all those bottom bracket "standards" exist. They aren't just trying to get more money from you, they are actually making better bikes, believe it or not.
    Yep, I remember watching videos of people bending and snapping square taper cranksets. They were not up to the task when we started going freeride, downhill and all mountain. What many of us consider normal drops and not freeride or downhill stuff will bend and snap them. That and it's stupid easy and quick to take off the shimano cranks without excessive force or wearing down a taper-interface (which can cause creaking, wobble, play, etc).

    I was just trying to point out that octalink V1 was pretty good. Most people had no problems with it, but it was an intermediary step. Huge difference between V2 and square, but still V1 was a step up for sure. ISIS on the other hand, that was a "me-too!" trainwreck.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53119 View Post
    i confess. i do share some of the op's thoughts but it's towards road bikes. I've learned to live with terms like NOS and NIB and it's been fine as far as purchases go. I don't ride like a total beast anymore so "going" thru parts is not a bit frustrating to me at all. It'll never frustrate me to the point where i'd ever let it kill the enjoyment of a ride, that's for sure.

    seriously, square taper bbs suck. that's the second thing i would destroy after wheels if you grew up on bmx. there's a reason profiles had splines.
    You know that NIB means new in box right? It has nothing to do with old stock. My 2012 XTR brake came NIB.
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    Pretentious much?

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I don't think that's really practical. Maybe you do have a "perfectly good 8spd drivetrain", but derailer springs wear, the pivots and their bushings wear, pulleys wear, the rings wear, the freewheel carrier gets scored, shifters wear, detents wear down, and so on. Some of these are replaceable, but this far down the line an 8spd cassette is the least of most people's 8spd worries, and if you happen to have all the other parts in pristine condition, well that's just an anomaly.

    Yeah, it seems like a lot of folks talk about having "perfectly good" older generation high end derailleurs, and I wonder if they've had any experience on a new one for comparison. I usually end up replacing derailleurs because the pivots and springs develop play, not because I smash them into things. I do ride quite a bit, but I only get ~2 years out of a derailleur before it gets sloppy and loses precision.

    Some folks talk about still using derailleurs that are 8+ years old and I can't help but think that they must be worn out by this point. I'd rather have a brand new Deore derailleur than an 8 year old used XTR model.
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  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley View Post
    I'd rather have a brand new Deore derailleur than an 8 year old used XTR model.
    How about an 8 year old NOS XTR derailer?

    You're missing the point. Its not used and worn out components that the OP likes. He likes old technology. He doesn't necessarily use a 5 year old chain, but he like his cantis, even if he has to change his pads or even rims every now and then. He likes his square tapers, and is OK with getting a new BB every now and then, but doesn't want to have to change his BB if he wants a high end crank (though this makes no sense).

    I can understand the OPs hate for obsoletion. But I don't share it. He just feels left out when he needs to replace an inexpensive part and ends up spending a lot more because of progress.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    How about an 8 year old NOS XTR derailer?

    You're missing the point. Its not used and worn out components that the OP likes. He likes old technology. He doesn't necessarily use a 5 year old chain, but he like his cantis, even if he has to change his pads or even rims every now and then. He likes his square tapers, and is OK with getting a new BB every now and then, but doesn't want to have to change his BB if he wants a high end crank (though this makes no sense).

    I can understand the OPs hate for obsoletion. But I don't share it. He just feels left out when he needs to replace an inexpensive part and ends up spending a lot more because of progress.


    An M592 Deore or M663 SLX is lightyears ahead of that 8 year old XTR. Both of these new derailers are "shadow" derailers with the mechanism tucked way in, so it doesn't hang out looking for rocks. They have stiffer springs, for more positive gear shifts. Wide pivots help with consistent shifting and eliminating flex/misalignment. They have the direct-feed cable mount, so no looping necessary.

    I think a lot of us understand the sentiment, but it's like anything else. Can I just leave a computer dormant for 8-10 years and boot it up and expect it to run everything fine? Nope, the world has moved on, now there's a new OS and new browsers and so on. That's probably one of the most extreme case, but it's the same with many things. It would be one thing if you are actually using it enough to wear out wear-parts and occasionally damage stuff, that's where you upgrade and convert slowly as things change, thereby keeping the price manageable. Not much sympathy because those of us that put miles on bikes realize this stuff is all "disposable" to some extent. The further you move away from the main parts (frame), generally the more "disposable" it is. You might like your solid-rear axle Mustang, but they've squeezed about everything out that is possible and the only way to make it better and to hang with the camaros in the turns is to make the rear suspension independent. Ok, there will be plenty of people offering solid rear axles aftermarket, for a while, but things will eventually move on and stock will get scarce. By that time virtually no one will be using them, and the few holdouts that are will simply realize that their cars are essentially "disposable" at that point. It would be ultra-rare for it to have been owned by the same person the whole time, but if it really did reach that age with one guy, he's probably going to baby it and not use it for anything serious anymore...or realize it's disposable at that point.
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  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley View Post
    Yeah, it seems like a lot of folks talk about having "perfectly good" older generation high end derailleurs, and I wonder if they've had any experience on a new one for comparison. I usually end up replacing derailleurs because the pivots and springs develop play, not because I smash them into things. I do ride quite a bit, but I only get ~2 years out of a derailleur before it gets sloppy and loses precision.

    Some folks talk about still using derailleurs that are 8+ years old and I can't help but think that they must be worn out by this point. I'd rather have a brand new Deore derailleur than an 8 year old used XTR model.
    I was one of those guys. Rode the same xtr rear derailleur for 9 years. Was the first derailleur I wore out. It started throwing chains. At first I thought it was out of adjustment but it eventually occurred to me it might be wearing out. I went to the lbs to check out new derailleurs because I thought mine was damaged in a crash but when I started handling the new ones I realized that mine was worn. Got a NOS XT 9spd as a replacement because there is no good sense in upgrading the whole drivetrain to 10spd because I wore out a derailleur.

    And that last sentence is the crux of the matter, isn't it? You enjoy your old bike the way it is and when something wears out you want to buy a new replacement of equal or better quality yet you don't want to upgrade half the bike (parts that don't need replacement yet) just because you wore something out.

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Which in the cases i have seen so far, has turned out very expensive

    But yes, they naturally can be found, just not at a cost that has anything to do with the reality usually.

    Used ones are plenty, but buying a used cassette, is at best like buying a lottery ticket.

    Besides, having to hunt NOS on Efraud is not my idea of having things available.
    It is a far cry from not getting issues for no good reason, from the industry changing "standards" in a rapid pace to keep peoples bikes becoming obsolete, just for the sake of making them obsolete.

    It would have been easy for the industry to have kept the compatibility all the way from 7sp. They just saw an opportunity to create a latent need.


    Magura
    Hmmm, so it looks like you have something to do with Magura. You do understand that Magura makes disc brakes and suspension forks that would not be around if we were all riding rigid steel frames with rigid steel forks and canti brakes right!? Thankfully technological advances have given us these wonderful parts that allow us to ride more difficult trails with more control.
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  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millfox View Post
    Some things in the letter have a point.

    I also dont understand the reason for 2x10 or (new) 1x11 shifting systems. Sure that front derailleurs can be a pain in the ass but they ad flexibility to the ride. With 1x11 they plan to sell about 5 versions of crank wheels depending on the teeth count. With a classic 3x10 they sell 44-33-22 or 42-32-22... Thats much more of an all rounder IMHO.

    And those bottom brackets... I'm having quite a problem finding an octalink 1 for my bike these days. Cranks are OK but I guess I'll have to swap... THANKS a lot shimano!

    EDIT: I dont really see problem in new standards. Thing that bugs me more is the fact that sooner or later we'll be forced to buy a 2x10 or 1x11 because there will be nothing else that will be decent on the market.
    So what's wrong with 2x10? It's slim & trim and is just what many need.
    "Prollyisnotprobably"

  31. #181
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    I kind of like the progress. As someone who moved away from the sport of "Mountainbiking" over 10 years ago to pursue other things in my life, I am excited and in awe of the new technology, and how much things have changed (for the better). Things that were top of the line when I used to ride are considered entry level now, and as such much cheaper to buy. My current ride (A Giant STP-0) is a dream bike for me when I think back to my old "mountainbike" all purpose bike. The first jump I pulled on the new bike was a revelation. How the hell did I achieve what I did ten years ago on what was considered a very good bike at the time (I had a Diamond Back V-Link with Marzocchi Bomber Z2's). Without progress, no-one moves forward...

  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkley View Post
    Yeah, it seems like a lot of folks talk about having "perfectly good" older generation high end derailleurs, and I wonder if they've had any experience on a new one for comparison. I usually end up replacing derailleurs because the pivots and springs develop play, not because I smash them into things. I do ride quite a bit, but I only get ~2 years out of a derailleur before it gets sloppy and loses precision.

    Some folks talk about still using derailleurs that are 8+ years old and I can't help but think that they must be worn out by this point. I'd rather have a brand new Deore derailleur than an 8 year old used XTR model.
    If maintained well, you can easily have old stuff that works pretty much like new.

    ....and yes, I do have new stuff as well.


    Magura

  33. #183
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    As much as I would like to try and ride one of these, I imagine it wouldn't be too much fun on the trails.


  34. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    As much as I would like to try and ride one of these, I imagine it wouldn't be too much fun on the trails.

    You might want a slacker HT angle. That one looks a bit twitchy. Old school, you might say.

  35. #185
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    That would involve making advancements which forces us to spend more money and that would just be wrong.

  36. #186
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    I didn't read thru all the responses that were posted, so forgive me if it's all ready been suggested...


    The #1 thing that I think that Shimano should do is remake the XT/XTR line of 8-speed from about 96-01. Talk about a money-maker! They would be selling gold from a gold mine, and all the tooling is already made!

    Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away...

  37. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    ... Got a NOS XT 9spd as a replacement because there is no good sense in upgrading the whole drivetrain to 10spd because I wore out a derailleur.

    And that last sentence is the crux of the matter, isn't it? You enjoy your old bike the way it is and when something wears out you want to buy a new replacement of equal or better quality yet you don't want to upgrade half the bike (parts that don't need replacement yet) just because you wore something out.
    That is exactly right. I ride the bike I built in 2003. I used nice XT components throughout back then it was a nice riding bike. 9psd, V-brakes and all. These days is getting harder and harder to find similar quality parts without needing "upgrade" the entire bike. I rode bike in 2003/2004 and then took some time off riding. So the bike just sat in the garage. When I started riding it again last fall I felt no need to "upgrade" since the bike worked. In fact other than new tubes it needed nothing. That is right I still run tubes to. Now wear items like tires are new now, but they don't require me to upgrade the wheels to put them on. I just put on the tires and be done with it.

    I am close to the point where 1 failed part that should cost $20 will force a $500 upgrade. I busted a tooth off my middle chainring and was able to get a XT M751 middle ring. However I wanted to replace my big ring as I had couple teeth ground down going over rocks. It still worked, but while I had it off I figured it would be good change.. Well try to find a XT M751/752 big ring... You can't... The 760 might fit, but who wants to spend $80 on chain ring that "might" work. Then given the BB change I figure if something else breaks on there I will need a new BB/crankset. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", '06 Rocky Mtn Switch 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  38. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    If maintained well, you can easily have old stuff that works pretty much like new.

    ....and yes, I do have new stuff as well.


    Magura
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    As much as I would like to try and ride one of these, I imagine it wouldn't be too much fun on the trails.

    Look the point is mtn bikes from 10-20 years ago are not that different. Not like what you see here. Changes from V-brakes to discs are not earth shattering. 9 or 10 speed drive trains, 29" wheels not to mention 31.8 vs 25.4 bars, taper head tubes. even 1 1/8 vs quill.

    All of these changes are detail changes and refinements. Just because they are out there it does not mean the old stuff is bad. It just means the new stuff is slight improvement. I don't dislike new stuff, but forcing upgrades not my idea of fun. There is that attitude that all the old stuff is bad or going to break. Hell no. A well built 10 year 26" hardtail with v-brakes will ride the trails today just fine. I did race on such bike a few weeks ago. Results were fine and I finished where I did due to me and not my bike. If I were racing for wins then I would probably need to upgraded, but when are just out for fun it is hard drop $$$ for only minor update.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", '06 Rocky Mtn Switch 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Look the point is mtn bikes from 10-20 years ago are not that different. Not like what you see here. Changes from V-brakes to discs are not earth shattering. 9 or 10 speed drive trains, 29" wheels not to mention 31.8 vs 25.4 bars, taper head tubes. even 1 1/8 vs quill.

    All of these changes are detail changes and refinements. Just because they are out there it does not mean the old stuff is bad. It just means the new stuff is slight improvement. I don't dislike new stuff, but forcing upgrades not my idea of fun. There is that attitude that all the old stuff is bad or going to break. Hell no. A well built 10 year 26" hardtail with v-brakes will ride the trails today just fine. I did race on such bike a few weeks ago. Results were fine and I finished where I did due to me and not my bike. If I were racing for wins then I would probably need to upgraded, but when are just out for fun it is hard drop $$$ for only minor update.
    Exactly!


    Magura

  40. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Hmmm, so it looks like you have something to do with Magura. You do understand that Magura makes disc brakes and suspension forks that would not be around if we were all riding rigid steel frames with rigid steel forks and canti brakes right!? Thankfully technological advances have given us these wonderful parts that allow us to ride more difficult trails with more control.
    Hmm, it looks like Magura is my nickname in the real world, and has been for like 20 years

    I have no connection with the company called Magura.


    Magura

  41. #191
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    Magura... where does that come from?
    Anyway, it has been mentioned that the progress in MTB tech has been incremental. Its true, but only to a certain extent. Try free riding on a rigid 5 speeder with cantis. I dare you...
    Tech has allowed athletes to push the sport to its extremes, and new tech is made to accommodate those extremes.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  42. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Magura... where does that come from?
    Anyway, it has been mentioned that the progress in MTB tech has been incremental. Its true, but only to a certain extent. Try free riding on a rigid 5 speeder with cantis. I dare you...
    Tech has allowed athletes to push the sport to its extremes, and new tech is made to accommodate those extremes.
    I got that name back when hydraulic brakes were fairly unknown, and I guess I was much into them back then, so I got the nick.
    Now I just go by that name.

    If you take a look around the MTBR, you'll see that I'm all for development, in fact I have made a few bits here and there myself.
    What I am against, is change for the sake of change, with no benefit besides lining the pockets of the industry.
    Much of the "development" we see, has no real benefit. A great example is the new Sram XX1. That has to be a joke if you ask me. Even 10 speed offers very limited benefit.
    The limited benefit XX1 offers, could be achieved without making another "standard", and at a minimal cost.

    Magura

  43. #193
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    Really? I like the concept of XX1. Not having to worry about shifting in front is already a known + of the 1 x n setup. Being able to achieve most of the ratios of a triple is awesome. Would it be possible to but a 42-10 cassette on a standard hub? Maybe the 11 speeds are unnecessary though.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  44. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Really? I like the concept of XX1. Not having to worry about shifting in front is already a known + of the 1 x n setup. Being able to achieve most of the ratios of a triple is awesome. Would it be possible to but a 42-10 cassette on a standard hub? Maybe the 11 speeds are unnecessary though.
    I'm doing a 40-11, 10 sp. at the moment, which does not seem to leave much to wish for compared to a 42-10, and mine is compatible with all the usual hubs.
    I would much rather have seen the industry do that, but the industry chose to make it a 1000$ upgrade, instead of a 50$ solution

    Besides that, I guess we want the same thing, I just like that my stuff is not at total loss every time something goes south away from home.
    So I develop stuff that can be replaced by just about anything on the market, if need be, but offers the same as the top shelf stuff or better.


    Magura

  45. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Really? I like the concept of XX1. Not having to worry about shifting in front is already a known + of the 1 x n setup. Being able to achieve most of the ratios of a triple is awesome. Would it be possible to but a 42-10 cassette on a standard hub? Maybe the 11 speeds are unnecessary though.

    I personally think a 1x set-up it is big step backward. Ok if only ride a one trail type, but for all around use it is big step down. The triple chainring set-up gives you a wide range of gears and close spacing. Close spacing is important if you want to run a set cadence. For me idea is somewhere between 85 and 95 rpm. With more gears and maximize speed and maitiain optimum cadence. Now a triple does have overlap and so some might prefer a 2x10 to 3x9, but those are detail differences. I have road bike with a triple front and 12-23 9 spd rear. Compared to my mtb with its 11-34 rear I get the same number of grears, but a much tighter spacing. This is handy to allow me to pick just the right gear run at my max pedal force while also optimizing my cadence. These two thing combine to allow max speed for most any road or wind condition.

    Now single speeds are completely different in that those riders WANT the challenge of just one gear. It is badge of honor really as you have learn to ride around the weakness of just one gear.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", '06 Rocky Mtn Switch 26" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  46. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Look the point is mtn bikes from 10-20 years ago are not that different. Not like what you see here. Changes from V-brakes to discs are not earth shattering. 9 or 10 speed drive trains, 29" wheels not to mention 31.8 vs 25.4 bars, taper head tubes. even 1 1/8 vs quill.

    All of these changes are detail changes and refinements. Just because they are out there it does not mean the old stuff is bad. It just means the new stuff is slight improvement. I don't dislike new stuff, but forcing upgrades not my idea of fun. There is that attitude that all the old stuff is bad or going to break. Hell no. A well built 10 year 26" hardtail with v-brakes will ride the trails today just fine. I did race on such bike a few weeks ago. Results were fine and I finished where I did due to me and not my bike. If I were racing for wins then I would probably need to upgraded, but when are just out for fun it is hard drop $$$ for only minor update.
    I have to disagree. The difference between my 1992 Bridgestone MB4 and my 2013 Specialized FSR Stumpjumper Elite are profound. Both cost roughly the same in inflation adjusted dollars (I think I paid $800 bucks for the MB4) but the ride quality, speed, and comfort are not even in the same galaxy.

    I am fortunate to have a pretty good job so I can afford nice bikes. Upgrades are fun which is the whole point of mountain biking. Certainly it's not pulling any chicks or increasing my social standing in the community. New bikes with cool technology are fun for their own sake and require no justification. If I were poor I would be happy (and was happy when I was poor) with a basic, sturdy, inexpensive bike but now, heck, mountain biking beats golf, hunting, or any other hobbies common in my demographic and it's probably cheaper in the long run.

    The OP is a retrogrouch which is fine but five years from now what is now a high end component will be found on low-priced bikes and everybody will benefit. Heck, you can get a very nice "generic" carbon frame for less than $400 today. A few years back they were highly exotic and ran in the thousands. I happen to really like the ride quality and coolness factor of carbon.

    So my letter to the bike industry would urge them to continue developing new, unnecessary technologies. I lead a fairly Spartan life, drive a cheap car, live in a modest house, and generally live well below the level that my income would allow me to if i was that kind of guy. My only real extravagances are bikes. Beats putting the money into our creaky and tottering financial system in the misguided expectation that the political cronies of Wall Street and the government will do anything to prevent our investments from being ass raped. My inlaws bought into the hype and have lost almost three-quarters of the value of their investments.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 11-29-2012 at 02:04 PM.

  47. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I personally think a 1x set-up it is big step backward. Ok if only ride a one trail type, but for all around use it is big step down. The triple chainring set-up gives you a wide range of gears and close spacing. Close spacing is important if you want to run a set cadence. For me idea is somewhere between 85 and 95 rpm. With more gears and maximize speed and maitiain optimum cadence.
    Triples are nice for narrow cassettes. Maintaining an optimum cadence isnt at the top of my list. Definitely not over reliability and simplicity. I ride for fun and fitness. I can go a little slower than my body permits if I want an optimum cadence.

    I think the 11 speed cassette is to be able to keep an optimum cadence even with a 1 x n drive train.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    .

    I think the 11 speed cassette is to be able to keep an optimum cadence even with a 1 x n drive train.
    If you don't have strong legs, it's harder.
    Last edited by Mountain Cycle Shawn; 11-29-2012 at 06:07 PM.

  49. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Triples are nice for narrow cassettes. Maintaining an optimum cadence isnt at the top of my list. Definitely not over reliability and simplicity. I ride for fun and fitness. I can go a little slower than my body permits if I want an optimum cadence.

    I think the 11 speed cassette is to be able to keep an optimum cadence even with a 1 x n drive train.
    I confess to have never used the largest chain ring on a triple setup and for what it's worth would really prefer a 1x10 setup on most of my bikes with a 24 tooth chainring up front.

  50. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I confess to have never used the largest chain ring on a triple setup and for what it's worth would really prefer a 1x10 setup on most of my bikes with a 24 tooth chainring up front.
    Really? Don't you spin out in the middle on flat ground?

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