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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    If you don't have strong legs, it harder.
    Hmm? I realize not having a granny gear would make it harder to do those grueling climbs but that's what... cross training is for.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    I confess to have never used the largest chain ring on a triple setup and for what it's worth would really prefer a 1x10 setup on most of my bikes with a 24 tooth chainring up front.
    By contrast I have used my 22, 32 and 44 chainrings on the same ride many times. Each chainrings has its purpose.


    Now I am not against new technology, but do find if frustrating to be FORCED into upgrading when all you want to do is maintain a your bike. 10 years old is not old for piece of equipment that is 90% the same.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Really? Don't you spin out in the middle on flat ground?
    Our trails are mostly up and down...very few flat areas. And I'm more of a spinner than a masher.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Our trails are mostly up and down...very few flat areas. And I'm more of a spinner than a masher.
    Let me rephrase that. Don't you spin out in the middle going down?

  5. #205
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    this thread is similar to the vinyl vs CDs vs mp3 debate i suffer through sometimes as a broadcaster...

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    this thread is similar to the vinyl vs CDs vs mp3 debate i suffer through sometimes as a broadcaster...
    It would have been, if the audio industry made it impossible to connect an old record player to a new stereo.

    Fortunately it is not so.


    Magura

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    It would have been, if the audio industry made it impossible to connect an old record player to a new stereo.

    Fortunately it is not so.


    Magura
    huh? my seventies pioneer TT works just fine with my nineties tuner/amp--although it's routed through a early 00's gemini mixer...

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Let me rephrase that. Don't you spin out in the middle going down?
    I have a 22/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. The only place I spin out and care is on pavement (where I guess I really don't care, anyway). I I might spin out on a fire road, but not on singletrack. It's just too rough and/or twisty to be going that fast.

    Been riding over 10 years this way, never saw the need for a big ring on the mtb.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    huh? my seventies pioneer TT works just fine with my nineties tuner/amp--although it's routed through a early 00's gemini mixer...
    Try reading my post once more.



    Magura

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Try reading my post once more.



    Magura
    gotcha...

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I have a 22/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. The only place I spin out and care is on pavement (where I guess I really don't care, anyway). I I might spin out on a fire road, but not on singletrack. It's just too rough and/or twisty to be going that fast.

    Been riding over 10 years this way, never saw the need for a big ring on the mtb.
    to each their own.

    since i don't own a car, lots of my riding involves a fair amount of pavement and fast fire roads. not having a big ring would be a quite a handicap.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Look the point is mtn bikes from 10-20 years ago are not that different. Not like what you see here. Changes from V-brakes to discs are not earth shattering. 9 or 10 speed drive trains, 29" wheels not to mention 31.8 vs 25.4 bars, taper head tubes. even 1 1/8 vs quill.

    All of these changes are detail changes and refinements. Just because they are out there it does not mean the old stuff is bad. It just means the new stuff is slight improvement. I don't dislike new stuff, but forcing upgrades not my idea of fun. There is that attitude that all the old stuff is bad or going to break. Hell no. A well built 10 year 26" hardtail with v-brakes will ride the trails today just fine. I did race on such bike a few weeks ago. Results were fine and I finished where I did due to me and not my bike. If I were racing for wins then I would probably need to upgraded, but when are just out for fun it is hard drop $$$ for only minor update.
    Not significant changes in the last 20 years?

    I disagree

    The crappy Suntour XCR on my bike is a far cry better then the best early suspension forks. Not to mention the advancements in rear suspension.

    Regardless, though, nobody is forced to buy anything.
    If you feel compelled to buy, that is your fault.

    You statement is full of contradictions.

    First you say all the changes are detail changes and refinements.
    Then you say they are improvements.

    Next you say that you race for fun and you did fine on your old bike acting like you could care less about a win. Then saying if you wanted to win you would need to upgrade bikes. Sounds more like you are upset that you can't buy a new bike so you can't win.
    (Of course, that is an assumption that you could be the guys that beat you)

    Let's face it, bike manufacturers could care less about your old bike.
    Your old bike doesn't make them a dime.
    They don't want you to have a 20 year old bike, they want you to buy a new one every year.

  13. #213
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    Edit - just be accountable, bro. Don't blame the bike industry if you decide you need bigger wheels, or smaller wheels ... to clean your line.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    Edit - just be accountable, bro. Don't blame the bike industry if you decide you need bigger wheels, or smaller wheels ... to clean your line.
    Hey, what happened to all that other stuff you wrote, I liked it!

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    to each their own.

    since i don't own a car, lots of my riding involves a fair amount of pavement and fast fire roads. not having a big ring would be a quite a handicap.
    On a bike with less knobby tires that I planned to ride on pavement much, I'd have a bigger ring for sure
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Hey, what happened to all that other stuff you wrote, I liked it!
    I thought it was a little soap boxy.... But here's the full money version

    This is a pretty lame theory, that there is some global industry conspiratorial kool-aid that causes us mindless bikers to irrationally and uncontrollably buy **** we don't need, aren't able to use, and can't afford... and can't live without. That's a bunch of crap.

    Be accountable bro'.

    When I was riding a full rigid ~1993 3x8 speed Prestige steel GT Avalanche (...wish I still had it) I couldn't wait to get into a suspension fork ..... But by the time I wore out the GT, I was glad that I'd ridden through the first generations of front suspension .... And moved up to a full suspension Stumpjumper in 2002. Looking back, that bike was a tank, but at the time it felt like silk. I remember to this day my first ride on suspension around Cathedral Rock in Sedona thinking there was no way a trail bike could ever be any better. I'd seen/heard about hydraulic brakes... But hey probably just a fad. And besides, $1800 was as much as I'd ever dream of paying for a bicycle, even if it had last year's V-brakes.

    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    Now, I'm looking forward to carbon. I think droppers will eventually be perfected, when they work flawlessly and weigh less, and that'll be awesome. And i hear that 2x10 is fantastic... But 39/26 is a little tall for 29ers so I don't mind waiting for more selection of 36/22 cranks. Or maybe 1x11? Actually, I really think 2x11 with electric FRONT derailleur ( and mechanical rear derailleur) will be the sweet spot... But until I pull that trigger, my Titus is rolling just fine.

    Be accountable, bro. Don't blame Shimano if you decide Ice-Tech is going to give you added precision you need to clean your line so you drop a benji and scrap out your perfectly good OEM rotors. Don't blame Jamis for shaming you into 27.5 because you think your big wheels are "holding me back"

    Me, I can't wait to see what's next..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    to each their own.

    since i don't own a car, lots of my riding involves a fair amount of pavement and fast fire roads. not having a big ring would be a quite a handicap.
    I agree. I use my big on every ride. And I have a few cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    I thought it was a little soap boxy.... But here's the full money version

    This is a pretty lame theory, that there is some global industry conspiratorial kool-aid that causes us mindless bikers to irrationally and uncontrollably buy **** we don't need, aren't able to use, and can't afford... and can't live without. That's a bunch of crap.

    Be accountable bro'.

    When I was riding a full rigid ~1993 3x8 speed Prestige steel GT Avalanche (...wish I still had it) I couldn't wait to get into a suspension fork ..... But by the time I wore out the GT, I was glad that I'd ridden through the first generations of front suspension .... And moved up to a full suspension Stumpjumper in 2002. Looking back, that bike was a tank, but at the time it felt like silk. I remember to this day my first ride on suspension around Cathedral Rock in Sedona thinking there was no way a trail bike could ever be any better. I'd seen/heard about hydraulic brakes... But hey probably just a fad. And besides, $1800 was as much as I'd ever dream of paying for a bicycle, even if it had last year's V-brakes.

    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    Now, I'm looking forward to carbon. I think droppers will eventually be perfected, when they work flawlessly and weigh less, and that'll be awesome. And i hear that 2x10 is fantastic... But 39/26 is a little tall for 29ers so I don't mind waiting for more selection of 36/22 cranks. Or maybe 1x11? Actually, I really think 2x11 with electric FRONT derailleur ( and mechanical rear derailleur) will be the sweet spot... But until I pull that trigger, my Titus is rolling just fine.

    Be accountable, bro. Don't blame Shimano if you decide Ice-Tech is going to give you added precision you need to clean your line so you drop a benji and scrap out your perfectly good OEM rotors. Don't blame Jamis for shaming you into 27.5 because you think your big wheels are "holding me back"

    Me, I can't wait to see what's next..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.
    Right on!

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    I thought it was a little soap boxy.... But here's the full money version

    This is a pretty lame theory, that there is some global industry conspiratorial kool-aid that causes us mindless bikers to irrationally and uncontrollably buy **** we don't need, aren't able to use, and can't afford... and can't live without. That's a bunch of crap.

    Be accountable bro'.

    When I was riding a full rigid ~1993 3x8 speed Prestige steel GT Avalanche (...wish I still had it) I couldn't wait to get into a suspension fork ..... But by the time I wore out the GT, I was glad that I'd ridden through the first generations of front suspension .... And moved up to a full suspension Stumpjumper in 2002. Looking back, that bike was a tank, but at the time it felt like silk. I remember to this day my first ride on suspension around Cathedral Rock in Sedona thinking there was no way a trail bike could ever be any better. I'd seen/heard about hydraulic brakes... But hey probably just a fad. And besides, $1800 was as much as I'd ever dream of paying for a bicycle, even if it had last year's V-brakes.

    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    Now, I'm looking forward to carbon. I think droppers will eventually be perfected, when they work flawlessly and weigh less, and that'll be awesome. And i hear that 2x10 is fantastic... But 39/26 is a little tall for 29ers so I don't mind waiting for more selection of 36/22 cranks. Or maybe 1x11? Actually, I really think 2x11 with electric FRONT derailleur ( and mechanical rear derailleur) will be the sweet spot... But until I pull that trigger, my Titus is rolling just fine.

    Be accountable, bro. Don't blame Shimano if you decide Ice-Tech is going to give you added precision you need to clean your line so you drop a benji and scrap out your perfectly good OEM rotors. Don't blame Jamis for shaming you into 27.5 because you think your big wheels are "holding me back"

    Me, I can't wait to see what's next..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.
    Yes on everything especially that lat part.

    Seems people often want to blame the equipment for their problems and not their own inadequacies.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes on everything especially that lat part.

    Seems people often want to blame the equipment for their problems and not their own inadequacies.
    Yet nobody besides you have brought up that topic in this thread.

    So get your female hormones under control, and quit reading stuff that people don't type

    Magura

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I have a 22/32 crank and 11-34 cassette. The only place I spin out and care is on pavement (where I guess I really don't care, anyway). I I might spin out on a fire road, but not on singletrack. It's just too rough and/or twisty to be going that fast.

    Been riding over 10 years this way, never saw the need for a big ring on the mtb.
    I don't use the big ring on trails as much as the smaller ones, but I am happy to have it there. On faster flowing descents I will tend to move to the big ring just to reduce chainslap you get from the middle ring small rear cog combo. Plus in my last (and only) mtb race the last mile or 2 where on pavement and went into roadie mode with big ring and small cog to push 24 mph in order to pass another rider. I am sure glad I had triple on that ride.

    Point is I like versatility of the triple. It give a wide range of gears and allows mix of options on how to ride those gears. Going to a double gives up either range, flexibiity, or spacing and a single front is even worse requiring you to give up a lot of range.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Not significant changes in the last 20 years?

    I disagree

    The crappy Suntour XCR on my bike is a far cry better then the best early suspension forks. Not to mention the advancements in rear suspension.
    Bikes still have 2 wheels, fat tires, gears, seats and handlebars. Overall they are the pretty much the same.

    Frame materials have improved allowing for lighter bikes, but to to some degree they have offset by other things.

    In the end a good rider on old bike and still ride the same trails as before. He or she may not be able to go quite as fast it is can still be done. Look 40 year ago mtn biking did not really exist so change does happen, but right now we are in the refinement phase. The first big revolution was create mtn bike in first place. That means double triangle bike with "fat" tires with gears and an intended purpose of riding in the dirt another rough surfaces.

    The next revolution front suspension. The one following that was rear suspension. Since then there have been refinements to a lot of things. The funny thing about even these "revolutions" is that while most people run front suspension there are some that chose not to. There are even more still that chose to not run rear suspension. So that while the are revolutionary they are not not requirements either.




    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post

    You statement is full of contradictions.

    First you say all the changes are detail changes and refinements.
    Then you say they are improvements.

    Next you say that you race for fun and you did fine on your old bike acting like you could care less about a win. Then saying if you wanted to win you would need to upgrade bikes. Sounds more like you are upset that you can't buy a new bike so you can't win.
    (Of course, that is an assumption that you could be the guys that beat you)
    There improvements are detail changes and refinements. People would like to say a 10 speed drive train is 100% better than a 7 speed, but really it is not. It is a refinement and if used properly and improvement, but a minor one. On a recreational trail ride it not big deal either way. Still given the choice I would rather use my 9 spd vs the 7 spd on my 1998 bike. Even so I can't really say my riding got "better" on the 9 spd.

    As for racing... I did one race for the fun of it. I will do some additional ones. I will not race to win, but I always give 100% because it is what I do. Now if I really wanted to dedicate myself to winning races I would start with a lot of training. Lots more than I do now and I know I don't have time for that. Then I would try to eek out every less ounce of speed from my bike. I have background in club level car racing so I know what it takes to race competitively. A few years ago I placed 4 in my class at the national championship race. I lead half the race and finished 4th 2.5 seconds out of the lead after 40 min. This is in a class where all the cars are "identical". I built and maintained my car myself so I know what it takes to try to get 100% from something. On race bike ounce make a difference and you need the latest whiz bang gizmo because seconds matter. What I am doing now on bike is far cry from that so I see no need to chase the latest "go fast" stuff. I am tired of that. I prefer to have fun of competition without the work it takes to win. I train when I can and race what I have. I give my 100% on course, but realize I will never win and just hope to be in the pack having fun. That goal is achieved even on an old bike because fundamentally the old bike is still competent with a competent rider. There more difference in rider skills and fitness separating overall field of riders in mtn bike race than in the equipment old or new.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Let's face it, bike manufacturers could care less about your old bike.
    Your old bike doesn't make them a dime.
    They don't want you to have a 20 year old bike, they want you to buy a new one every year.
    This is quite true... and it is why they like to change standards and come out with new "must have" "Revolutionary" products each year.
    Last edited by JoePAz; 11-30-2012 at 08:02 AM.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott In MD View Post
    ...
    6 years later, in 2008, I was blown away at how much smoother a Titus full suspension RacerX 29r was. I splurged and set it up with only the best >>> full XT 3x9 ... And finally, hydraulic brakes! And tubeless. But day 1 on hydraulic/tubeless/29 didn't make me love the ride any more or any less.

    ..... But every time I get passed on a long climb by some guy (or gal) riding a v-brake 3X8 speed 26r I'm reminded it is the Indian, not the arrow.

    Same here. I had similar experience "upgrading". In 1998 I bought an entry level mongoose. vbrakes 3x7 Indy "S" fork. Good bike for the day and price. I rode it everywhere and loved. However it was a bit heavy and did not have the best fork. I swapped the fork to Judy in 2002 and it got better. Then in 2003 I "rewarded" myself with new bike. This time I went light and XT. Built up a new bike with the latest 9spd system, hollow cranks, etc. I shaved off a solid 5-6lbs of bike weight even with re-using the Judy I bought year earlier. Funny thing though.. While the bike climbed better and rode better in every way, I was not having "more fun" on the trails. The fun was the same and while I might have saved 30 seconds on a 5 minute climb it did not really change my riding any.

    I am still happy I upgraded when I did, but I realized that the bike was not going to give me super human skills. I sill had ride it. Today I could upgrade to the newest thing, but I ask myself.. "Will it make riding any more fun?" I have yet to find anything that stays "Yes" enough to drop $$$ on it.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  23. #223
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    All I can say is, the MTB has come a hell of a long way since I bought my Diamond Back Arrival in 1988!! I figure, I have another 25 years to ride. I can't wait to see what changes will come in the next 25 years!! I say, eff the past and bring on the future!!

  24. #224
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    Who had to go an resurrect this dead thread? It died because:

    everything's already been said

    it's an endlessly debatable topic

  25. #225
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    I like carbon frames over aluminum. Raced both.

    I like 29er wheels on my hardtail vs 26" on my hardtail. Raced both.

    I like carbon hoops better than aluminum. Raced both.

    I like my modern fork with lock out better than my generation 1 Manitou with elastomer bumpers. Raced both.

    I like disc brakes better than cantis and v brakes. Raced both.

    If I raced DH, I would buy a dropper post in a heartbeat.

    Yadda yadda yadda.

    Shame on the industry? Funny. What you fail to realize is that the bike you currently ride has evolved from the bikes available in the 1800s.

    Go buy a penny farthing and get on with it then..

    Industry...please continue to evolve. I will manage to ignore the 10% of silly "must haves" that are introduced each season...

    **Note: Look at what happened to Chris King when they refused to evolve. Still a great company, but making way way less money than 10 years ago.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by rydbyk; 11-30-2012 at 12:16 PM.

  26. #226
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    Progress, it's never going to slow down!!

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Progress, it's never going to slow down!!
    Progress has slowed down for the MTB scene a long time ago.

    It's mostly the marketing departments that are never going to slow down


    Magura

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Progress has slowed down for the MTB scene a long time ago.

    It's mostly the marketing departments that are never going to slow down


    Magura
    1980 to 1990, the advancements were?

    1990 to 2000, the advancements were?

    2000 to present, to me seems as relevant...maybe even more so. I do agree that marketing has increased, but that just mirrors what exists in nearly any industry today..

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Progress has slowed down for the MTB scene a long time ago.

    It's mostly the marketing departments that are never going to slow down


    Magura
    I do not agree. Bikes and parts are getting better every year. Weather you like what's coming out or not is another thing.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I do not agree. Bikes and parts are getting better every year. Weather you like what's coming out or not is another thing.
    Mostly not better, just different

    Suspension has seen some real improvement within the last 10 years, and that's about it.

    A top of the line gear system, is still working about the same as it was back then, and the same goes for brakes.

    During those years, the marketing departments have done a great job though.

    Magura

  31. #231
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    Iv'e been buying MTB frames and parts since 1988. Everything that I have bought has gotten better, lighter and stronger. Except those Hanabrink forks I bought, what a pile those were! Brakes are much better and lighter then 10 years ago.

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Iv'e been buying MTB frames and parts since 1988. Everything that I have bought has gotten better, lighter and stronger. Except those Hanabrink forks I bought, what a pile those were! Brakes are much better and lighter then 10 years ago.
    One of the top brakes today, is the Hope M4. It's still pretty much the same as it was 10 years ago.

    Need more examples?


    Magura

  33. #233
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    I don't need your examples.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I don't need your examples.
    Naah, true, I forgot that claims against examples of the opposite, is not a nice game to play


    Magura

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Progress has slowed down for the MTB scene a long time ago.

    It's mostly the marketing departments that are never going to slow down


    Magura
    I could not agree more, you noticed it as well.
    It seems that the marketing departments are trying to reinvent the wheel.

  36. #236
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    There are more and more innovations (as well as marketing - granted).
    But these usually have an ever-decreasing impact on the scale of improvement. It's like we're reaching the plateaux - race times falling by lower increments; bike bits weigh less, but only by a few grams.
    Every so often there is a step-change that lifts the game significantly. For me, tubeless is a good example - from 20 flats a year to none - incredible. Or 29" wheels for technical climbing.
    What will the next step change be? Difficult to imagine, but it will come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigwheelsRbest View Post
    What will the next step change be? Difficult to imagine, but it will come.
    That's R&D's job, not ours.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  38. #238
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    I keep trying to ignore this post, but i just cant.

    The splintering of mountain bikes into countless sub sections is the industry recognizing that i ride differently then you, i have different terrain in the place i live then you with different obstacles and features.

    The fact that RnD is being pushed as hard as it is, is the a great sign. It means mountain biking is becoming more mainstream, and is attracting a larger following and more interest. Why is this a good thing?, because we have come a long way form the days of rake and ride. Trails systems are being supported by towns and local communities, they are being supported by the land owners and are becoming draws for tourism and business to small towns everywhere.

    Now do we "need" half the things that are put out ever year?, hell no (buts its still fun to buy, thank you anodized matching parts and spacers). But from time to time something comes along that quickly becomes a must have, like the dropper seat post and like the disc brakes before it. Are there two things needed?, no maybe not. Did they make riding easier for many people?, hell yes. And ya know, thats a good enough reason for me to buy into it.

    Most technology that is quickly embraced are the things that make riding more exciting and safer, and these are two areas that always need to be worked on.

    Shame the bike industries?. shame the auto industries, i mean the speed limit is the speed limit... who needs after market performance parts?. Hell shame the electronics industries, shame the entertainment industries (really do we need remakes of classics?). Shame everyone who ever put out a new product when the old one still worked fine, i mean did we need an iphone 5, the 4s is still pretty freaking amazing.

    You know what happens when companies stop R&D and dont release new products, the go under and lots of people lose their jobs.

    TL;DR
    The op sounds like a kid who's friends have all the new toys and hes stuck using a department store bike, and is generally angry his parents wont buy him a new bike. I know because i used to be one of these people, suspension is stupid, hydros breaks are just going to leave you stranded on the side of the trail and dropper seat posts are just a gimmick. Stopping ever 20min on a trail to adjust my seat height is just as good.

    I most likely should not be wasting my time to feed the trolls but really... i mean really?
    2012 Giant Reign 1

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinGB View Post
    The fact that RnD is being pushed as hard as it is, is the a great sign. It means mountain biking is becoming more mainstream, and is attracting a larger following and more interest. Why is this a good thing?, because we have come a long way form the days of rake and ride. Trails systems are being supported by towns and local communities, they are being supported by the land owners and are becoming draws for tourism and business to small towns everywhere.

    You know what happens when companies stop R&D and dont release new products, the go under and lots of people lose their jobs.
    It's not the R&D departments that are being pushed, but the marketing departments....huge difference.
    If the R&D departments were working that hard, and got that much funding, we would see real development from more than a handful of companies. The rest are just changing things to make them seem different, and leave the "development" to the marketing guys.

    In fact what happens when the R&D departments don't develop new products, is that the development is grinding to something close to a standstill.
    ......and that is exactly what we have pretty much had for the last 10 years.

    Counting out the Shimano Dynasys, carbon MTB rims, some improvement of suspension, and some attempts at making a hydraulic dropper post work, nothing really new has hit the market for the last 10 years, just minor adjustments, and many of those not for the better.

    Loads of BS has hit the market in that period, heavily supported by the respective marketing departments. Mind you, that is what most of the cash goes towards, or we would have some pretty hefty bikes today.

    Magura
    Last edited by Mr.Magura; 12-01-2012 at 12:27 PM.

  40. #240
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    Oh, come on, Magura, don't you think that 10 speeds make me so much faster than 9 or even 8? I own those climbs now, (unless I need to shift the front because I have a 38 t big gear.)

    My 70 mm stem makes me so edgy going down that my crappy climbing position doesn't even matter. Hell, if I drop it in the corners, it's not the bike's fault (maybe the short stem's though), it's mine because I forgot to get my weight forward.

    Those wide bars give me so much more leverage than before (even though I'm riding a bike not a 240 lb motocrosser).

    And I like buying new rings every second season the BCD changes. It's my money after all, and I'm faster damn it.

    My ultra small frame with 18 inches of post isn't fashion either. Don't you know a smaller frame is stiffer and handles better?

    Tongue in cheek aside, we are at the 'motocross stage', where actual improvements are small each season. In moto, after 12 inches front and back in 1979, everything else has been minor by comparison.

    Imho, on bicycles disc brakes and really good suspension are the big breakthroughs. Stuff like carbon fibre, tapered steerers, stiff cranks, and OS bars definitely help incrementally. Pretty much everything else is hyped up stuff that the sheeple "just have to have".

    Drew
    occasional cyclist

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Imho, on bicycles disc brakes and really good suspension are the big breakthroughs. Stuff like carbon fibre, tapered steerers, stiff cranks, and OS bars definitely help incrementally. Pretty much everything else is hyped up stuff that the sheeple "just have to have".

    Drew
    I guess we pretty much agree in the end of the day

    Magura

  42. #242
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    The really nice things that has come lately is actual good working suspension. Stuff with actual working/good seals (such as hubs)

    lock on grips

    good grippy platform pedals

    good working hydro discs

    short stems

    lots of weird handlebars

    very light and durable steel frames

    +3 gear internal gear hubs that actually works

    dual gear cranks

    I think these new cranks/bb's (hollow axle) are a step forward too (ease and speed of assembly) but the drawbacks seems to be durability

    stainless and full length cables and housings

    infinite poe hubs

    centrelock hubs (!)

    1 x whatever
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    The really nice things that has come lately is actual good working suspension. Stuff with actual working/good seals (such as hubs)

    lock on grips

    good grippy platform pedals

    good working hydro discs

    short stems

    lots of weird handlebars

    very light and durable steel frames

    +3 gear internal gear hubs that actually works

    dual gear cranks

    I think these new cranks/bb's (hollow axle) are a step forward too (ease and speed of assembly) but the drawbacks seems to be durability

    stainless and full length cables and housings

    infinite poe hubs

    centrelock hubs (!)

    1 x whatever
    All of the above, is more than 10 years old

    Magura

  44. #244
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    Thats lately too me

    Those are good inventions. (imo)
    The rest I'm not so sure about to be honest.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by car bone View Post
    Thats lately too me

    Those are good inventions. (imo)
    The rest I'm not so sure about to be honest.
    I agree those are nice, but new....not so much

    I'm an old fool like yourself, but really, nothing has happened for quite some time if you think about it.


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  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Mostly not better, just different

    Suspension has seen some real improvement within the last 10 years, and that's about it.

    A top of the line gear system, is still working about the same as it was back then, and the same goes for brakes.

    During those years, the marketing departments have done a great job though.

    Magura
    I am not going to disagree with you that a lot of so called improvement is purely marketing. Actually I agree with most of what you are saying. I don't think things like through axels and taper head tubes make a difference to the majority of the riders out there. I certainly don't find they improve the ride of my bike at all.

    But......right now I have a 5 and 5 26inch dually that comes in at a 23 pounds. The bike is amazing; I can race XC at fairly high level on it and at the same time rip around a lot of the trail super techy trails found on the coast of BC. 10 years ago no such bike existed. I needed two bikes, one for racing and one for techy trails.

    There isn't a single product advancement that makes my bike a lot better then equivalent bike 10 years ago. What makes the bike a lot better is small improvements to each part.

    As you have said the suspension is better, but new modern brakes and changes to drive trains have also improved bikes. In all irony the only part that I didn't like the performance on my new bike was the Hope brakes. After a couple of rides on them I switched them with some XTR brakes and was much happier.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

  47. #247
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    If I went back in time to 1995 and handed myself the bike I am currently riding, I think I'd sh!t myself. Market hype or not, incremental improvements happen and it all adds up to some pretty kick ass stuff.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    If I went back in time to 1995 and handed myself the bike I am currently riding, I think I'd sh!t myself. Market hype or not, incremental improvements happen and it all adds up to some pretty kick ass stuff.
    You are so right. Bikes have come a long way from the bike I bought in 1996. I just finished building a new bike and I ride the same trails I rode with my bike in 1996. The difference is unbelievable!! I can't wait to see what the next 16 years have in store for us.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Suspension has seen some real improvement within the last 10 years, and that's about it.
    Considering the importance of system and the huge difference it can make, that's a pretty huge thing you're just disregarding.

  50. #250
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    Major advancements in mtb's in general was achieved over a decade ago, mechanical disc brakes, hydraulic disc brakes, tubless wheels suspension innovations etc etc. All we've seen since then is minor tweaks and upgrades, nothing revolutionary as was the case a decade ago.

  51. #251
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    "The rain drops make holes in stone not by violence but by oft falling" -some guy I don't remember.
    Point is, little things add up. And you end up with a holey stone. no need of revolutions every time.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    "The rain drops make holes in stone not by violence but by oft falling" -some guy I don't remember.
    Point is, little things add up. And you end up with a holey stone. no need of revolutions every time.
    Which is also fine with me. I really don't need a revolution.

    What ticks me off, is that nothing much is happening lately, besides making things incompatible, disguised as development.


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  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Yet nobody besides you have brought up that topic in this thread.

    So get your female hormones under control, and quit reading stuff that people don't type

    Magura
    What do you think "it is the Indian not the arrow" means?

    Maybe you better check your own female hormones out before you try commenting on others.

    kjlued

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    What do you think "it is the Indian not the arrow" means?

    Maybe you better check your own female hormones out before you try commenting on others.

    kjlued
    It means either that Indians are troublemakers, and can't be trusted, or that he also pointed out that it's the man, not the equipment

    Nobody in this thread till that post, had claimed that equipment was the major factor....later it went downhill though.

    Magura

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Bikes still have 2 wheels, fat tires, gears, seats and handlebars. Overall they are the pretty much the same.

    Frame materials have improved allowing for lighter bikes, but to to some degree they have offset by other things.

    In the end a good rider on old bike and still ride the same trails as before. He or she may not be able to go quite as fast it is can still be done. Look 40 year ago mtn biking did not really exist so change does happen, but right now we are in the refinement phase. The first big revolution was create mtn bike in first place. That means double triangle bike with "fat" tires with gears and an intended purpose of riding in the dirt another rough surfaces.

    The next revolution front suspension. The one following that was rear suspension. Since then there have been refinements to a lot of things. The funny thing about even these "revolutions" is that while most people run front suspension there are some that chose not to. There are even more still that chose to not run rear suspension. So that while the are revolutionary they are not not requirements either.






    There improvements are detail changes and refinements. People would like to say a 10 speed drive train is 100% better than a 7 speed, but really it is not. It is a refinement and if used properly and improvement, but a minor one. On a recreational trail ride it not big deal either way. Still given the choice I would rather use my 9 spd vs the 7 spd on my 1998 bike. Even so I can't really say my riding got "better" on the 9 spd.

    As for racing... I did one race for the fun of it. I will do some additional ones. I will not race to win, but I always give 100% because it is what I do. Now if I really wanted to dedicate myself to winning races I would start with a lot of training. Lots more than I do now and I know I don't have time for that. Then I would try to eek out every less ounce of speed from my bike. I have background in club level car racing so I know what it takes to race competitively. A few years ago I placed 4 in my class at the national championship race. I lead half the race and finished 4th 2.5 seconds out of the lead after 40 min. This is in a class where all the cars are "identical". I built and maintained my car myself so I know what it takes to try to get 100% from something. On race bike ounce make a difference and you need the latest whiz bang gizmo because seconds matter. What I am doing now on bike is far cry from that so I see no need to chase the latest "go fast" stuff. I am tired of that. I prefer to have fun of competition without the work it takes to win. I train when I can and race what I have. I give my 100% on course, but realize I will never win and just hope to be in the pack having fun. That goal is achieved even on an old bike because fundamentally the old bike is still competent with a competent rider. There more difference in rider skills and fitness separating overall field of riders in mtn bike race than in the equipment old or new.



    This is quite true... and it is why they like to change standards and come out with new "must have" "Revolutionary" products each year.

    Cars for that last 20+ years still just have pretty much 4 wheels, seats and motor, otherwise they are pretty much the same. Which is why I don't feel compelled to have a brand new one. However, they still continually come up refinements compelling people to buy them. So what is your point.

    Every industry will come up with newer greater "must have" stuff otherwise they will go out of business. If they kept just producing the same products, people would just be happy with the old and never buy new and replace unless it broke.

    However, you still have a choice to keep what you have and be happy or be a sheep and follow the flock. In all honesty this whole thread comes across as sour grapes.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    It means either that Indians are troublemakers, and can't be trusted, or that he also pointed out that it's the man, not the equipment

    Nobody in this thread till that post, had claimed that equipment was the major factor....later it went downhill though.

    Magura
    Yes, but you said I was commenting on something that somebody didn't right.

    Anyways, most threads go down hill after a the first couple pages.

    Trying to insult people doesn't help.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Cars for that last 20+ years still just have pretty much 4 wheels, seats and motor, otherwise they are pretty much the same. Which is why I don't feel compelled to have a brand new one. However, they still continually come up refinements compelling people to buy them. So what is your point.

    Every industry will come up with newer greater "must have" stuff otherwise they will go out of business. If they kept just producing the same products, people would just be happy with the old and never buy new and replace unless it broke.

    However, you still have a choice to keep what you have and be happy or be a sheep and follow the flock. In all honesty this whole thread comes across as sour grapes.
    The car industry actually makes game changing developments on regular basis.

    For instance ABS, traction control, collision control, parking aid, air bags, active suspension, and so on.

    Those things actually slowly sifts down to even cheap cars today, making them a lot safer.
    The bike industry on the other hand, is comparatively at pretty much a standstill.


    Magura

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes, but you said I was commenting on something that somebody didn't right.

    Anyways, most threads go down hill after a the first couple pages.

    Trying to insult people doesn't help.
    No offense intended.
    Sorry if it looked that way.
    I figured a smiley made it obvious that it was tongue in cheek.


    Magura

  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    The car industry actually makes game changing developments on regular basis.

    For instance ABS, traction control, collision control, parking aid, air bags, active suspension, and so on.

    Those things actually slowly sifts down to even cheap cars today, making them a lot safer.
    The bike industry on the other hand, is comparatively at pretty much a standstill.


    Magura
    Yeah, but a lot of that stuff has been around for 20 years.

    Me, I would rather own a 20 year old car, pay $1000-$1500 for it, drive it for a few years to the wheels are ready to fall off and sell it somebody that whats a mechanic special for $500.

    Why? As much as the newest latest greatest thing would be nice, I can't justify spending that kind of money for something I pretty much only use to only get me to the trail and back and the occasional road trip to see family. (I do have a company truck though).

    Bikes are no different.
    The old stuff will do the job, you pedal they go.
    But without innovations, no matter how small, people would no longer feel compelled to buy and companies would go out of business. The worst part about that is that less competition means less R&D which means the next big thing may never be invented.

    Although the bike companies keep making changes, nobody forces anyone to buy them.

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    No offense intended.
    Sorry if it looked that way.
    I figured a smiley made it obvious that it was tongue in cheek.


    Magura

    I never take offense to anything typed on the internet.

    Just couldn't figure why you thought I was commenting on something that nobody wrote especially after I put it in bold type.

  61. #261
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    FIGHT THE POWER!

    Seriously, I had a square taper BB back in the day and that thing couldnt handle the riding I did, it was loose every night after a day of riding. Octalink worked great but I dropped over a pound when I switched to a two piecer with hollow BB.
    I think the OP probably has the right idea, ride what you have and enjoy it, but don't try to take away everyone else's enjoyment in buying new stuff all the time. Just remember that a portion of what people are spending makes its way into the hands of the people who build and maintain trails.
    And any sport that is not evolving is dying, so there are your two choices. Just relax and go ride.
    Flyin the TallBoy and the Lynskey...Clyde style.


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    I AM AN ORGAN DONOR, ARE YOU?

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlyplumber View Post
    And any sport that is not evolving is dying, so there are your two choices. Just relax and go ride.
    See this is most likely very true.

    I'm all for real development, actually I'd prefer to be able to just go and buy the bits I need off the shelf.
    Fact is that I still make a load of parts myself, cause the development is hardly there in the industry.

    So don't get me wrong, I'd love to see real development, it's the goofy marketing BS, and wannabee development that gives nothing but compatibility issues, that I don't like so much.


    Magura

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    Magura, are you implying that MTBing is dying?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Magura, are you implying that MTBing is dying?
    Not tomorrow, but with time MTBing is getting less, if the industry don't get going.

    This would not be the first time something similar has happened.

    The industry has put emphasis on equipment and technology, but fail to deliver.
    That situation can be saved by the marketing departments for a while, but not in the long run.

    At some point even the most dense customers, are going to figure that "upgrades" are not really anything but change. At that point, selling new high $$ gear is going to be hard.


    Magura

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    Actually, I think the mountain biking industry and the bicycle industry as a whole is exactly where it needs to be in order to grow.

    It is proving it can hold through tough economic times.
    Sure, maybe some of the small time shops and high end frame builders can't compete in these tough economic times and they end up fading away which is a shame but the industry itself will hold strong.

    Also, because of these economic times, people are choosing cheaper affordable forms of transportation such as bicycles.

    We are are finally catching on to environmental awareness.
    More people are using human power to move themselves and although this does not generally affect the mountain biking industry directly, it does affect the biking industry as a whole.

    People are becoming more health conscious. Almost anyone can bicycle and it is a fun affordable way to get exercise (well affordable if you don't have to have the latest greatest innovations lol)

    So to say the industry would die is a little foolish.

    I honestly don't know what kinds of leaps and bounds anyone expects to be delivered in new innovations because when it comes right down to it, it will still always be two wheels, pedals and handlebars.

  66. #266
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    If you take a look at the facts, the use of bicycles as transportation globally is decreasing, and has been since 2001.

    The number of bikes sold is dropping, the use of bicycles (total ridden distance) is dropping,and the number of commuters is dropping.

    Now where do you see the industry doing well?

    The above is from figures obtained about the situation in Denmark, but the rest of the world seems to show a similar tendency.

    None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up ?

    The sports segment of the industry is not doing well in any way. A few big brands are at status quo, the rest are doing whatever they can to stay alive, which in most cases has meant minimal quality, minimal development, and manufacturing in Asia.

    Magura

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    Come to think of it, a good example of how little development there really is in the industry, is the new suspension company called DVO.

    They did a bit of real development work, and put a bit of cash towards development as well.
    I'll bet you they are going to prove poisonous to many of the established manufacturers, as they for the most part, have tried to keep development at a bare minimum, and had the marketing departments take care of the rest.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up ?

    Actually, you brought it up.

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Actually, you brought it up.
    I was talking about the sports segment of the industry, as this entire thread is about that.
    I did not say anything about the bicycle industry as a whole.

    Anyhow, both are not doing too well. I guess for different reasons though


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    Well, regardless, it really doesn't matter as this thread has really gone through 11 pages of nonsense that will never achieve anything. I mean honestly do you think the bicycle industry will cave in to a plea that makes people not want to buy new stuff?

    It really is quite simple.

    They will keep developing changes and if people don't think it is worth it then don't buy it.
    If your old bike is good enough then love it and ride it.
    If it makes you feel like a better rider because you just got the latest piece of carbon fiber bling then get it. Buy or keep whatever makes you smile but don't b!tch and whine because the industry is profit driven.

    (Not directed at you or anyone in particular)

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    (I know this has been beaten to death by now but I want to offer my insight anyway)

    I get frustrated by all the different standards too. Trying to buy a new frame without needing a new seatpost, fork, rear wheel and BB is getting increasingly difficult. I need a new front derailleur and it's almost easier just to buy the whole drivetrain so don't have to worry about 49.5 vs. 51mm spacing, 8 vs. 9 vs. 10 speed, etc.

    However to think that the 'bike industry' is intentionally pulling one over on us, going "heh heh this will get them to buy more stuff" is a conspiracy theory well removed from the real world. There is a huge amount of engineering going into components all the time, by a lot of different companies.

    Let's take the various new rear axle standards for instance. They crop up because related technologies (full suspension bike frames with lots of pivots) make them relevant (rear ends are flexier with all these pivots, and we're riding said frames harder than ever). A large part of why we end up with way too many different 'standards' is because a lot of different companies are working on the new designs simultaneously. Company A has already put hundred of engineering hours into their design by the time Company B releases their design.

    Kudos to companies that are making their product adaptable (such as replaceable ends on Hope hubs) to help alleviate the problem.

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, regardless, it really doesn't matter as this thread has really gone through 11 pages of nonsense that will never achieve anything. I mean honestly do you think the bicycle industry will cave in to a plea that makes people not want to buy new stuff?

    It really is quite simple.

    They will keep developing changes and if people don't think it is worth it then don't buy it.
    If your old bike is good enough then love it and ride it.
    If it makes you feel like a better rider because you just got the latest piece of carbon fiber bling then get it. Buy or keep whatever makes you smile but don't b!tch and whine because the industry is profit driven.

    (Not directed at you or anyone in particular)
    You don't see me whine, I merely stated an observation of that the industry is not making the best of the situation

    If the industry would focus on getting forward, instead of claiming to move forward, and going all kinds of directions, they could put the money in development, sack 80% of the marketing budget, and come out ahead.

    Personally I don't give a rats ass what the industry does, as I make most of my stuff myself these days.


    Magura

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Personally I don't give a rats ass what the industry does
    Then why do you keep endlessly arguing with everyone about what the industry is doing? While you're posting your smileys faces all over the place, like you're trying to make people feel good while you're endlessly tearing them a new ahole, because they have a different opinion.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Then why do you keep endlessly arguing with everyone about what the industry is doing? While you're posting your smileys faces all over the place, like you're trying to make people feel good while you're endlessly tearing them a new ahole, because they have a different opinion.
    That's called having a discussion, and has nothing to do with tearing anybody a new ahole.

    That some are unable to have a discussion, without feeling stepped on by anybody who don't share their point of view, or even worse back up their claims with evidence, is really their own problem.
    This seems to be an issue to some here, so I suggest those don't engage in discussions, if all they want is to state their opinion, and be padded on the back, no matter how far their opinion may be from reality.


    Magura

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    You're having a discussion about something that you, " don't give a rats ass" about. So, it seems like your primary purpose for being at this thread is just to argue with people.

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    I think what Magura sees as "different", others recognize to be better. External bearing, tapered steerers, post mount, 31.8 wide bars, 12 x 142, 15mm, XX1, etc. are not just arbitrary changes. They were created in response to problems with older stuff like 9mm, square taper, 1 x 10, 25.4 bars, 1 1/8 steerers etc. They aren't all bad, and they still exist today. But the new stuff is for those who need more out of their bikes, and who have absolutely no room for compromise.
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    or even worse back up their claims with evidence

    I am pretty sure I can back up my claims

    Industry Overview 2011 - National Bicycle Dealers Association

    Bike Europe - Bicycling is Booming in Britain, Says London School of Economics

    Now, can you?

  78. #278
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    Oh believe me, he'll have some argumentative comeback. Wait, let me get my popcorn!

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    Bike Europe - Market Report

    All but E-bikes are not doing well, and have not for a number of years by now.

    I have been unable to find substantiated numbers for the states.

    The numbers you got, are about all bikes, not even just the sport segment, let alone the MTB sport segment.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You're having a discussion about something that you, " don't give a rats ass" about. So, it seems like your primary purpose for being at this thread is just to argue with people.
    Try looking up the words "discussion" and "argument".

    Quite a difference, until somebody gets his panties in a bunch, and turns the discussion into an argument, due to his hurt ego.


    Magura

  81. #281
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    ^ you might try to read the articles that you just posted. They look pretty positive to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I think what Magura sees as "different", others recognize to be better. External bearing, tapered steerers, post mount, 31.8 wide bars, 12 x 142, 15mm, XX1, etc. are not just arbitrary changes. They were created in response to problems with older stuff like 9mm, square taper, 1 x 10, 25.4 bars, 1 1/8 steerers etc. They aren't all bad, and they still exist today. But the new stuff is for those who need more out of their bikes, and who have absolutely no room for compromise.
    Naah, I agree that 31.8 bars are better, 20mm axles too, also external BB's.
    They solved issues.
    Those inventions are though like 10 years old by now.

    The rest are diminishing improvements at best, if any at all, as I recall them.

    It's the lack of such during the last 10 years I am pointing out.

    Actually the front axle circus is a good example.
    The 20mm 110mm standard was more or less a standard followed by everybody.
    All of a sudden, somebody (Fox as I recall) decided to make a 15mm version. That offered absolutely nothing but change and another goofy "standard".

    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^ you might try to read the articles that you just posted. They look pretty positive to me!
    If you look a bit in depth, you'll find that they're positive due to the hope of the downwards development of the market, is about to change.

    It's been going downwards since like 2002 as I recall, and there is a long way till they're back up where they were in 2000.


    Magura

  84. #284
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    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post


    The numbers you got, are about all bikes, not even just the sport segment, let alone the MTB sport segment.


    Magura
    Read on and you might learn something.

    The firs link goes on to break it down to the percentage of sales vs type of bike.

    Not Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Read on and you might learn something.

    The firs link goes on to break it down to the percentage of sales vs type of bike.

    Not Magura
    Thanks for the hint.

    Now that you point me to it, why didn't you read it?

    MTB marketshare in 2005 = 29%
    MTB marketshare in 2011 = 23%

    That does not look like a market that is doing good.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.
    You also have to factor in that in a lot of countries, populations are no longer increasing. In some European countries the populations are getting smaller. That's one reason why the global economy has been suffering for the last few years. Our whole economic system is based on the need for constant growth in order to do well. Compared to the global economy, the bike industry is holding up pretty well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Thanks for the hint.

    Now that you point me to it, why didn't you read it?

    MTB marketshare in 2005 = 29%
    MTB marketshare in 2011 = 23%

    That does not look like a market that is doing good.


    Magura
    Yes I did and don't consider 6% to be a significant change or the death of mountain biking.
    However since 2006 it has only slightly fluctuated which probably means that in 2005 it simply had a spike. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

    Still not Magura

  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    I posted about this in a thread last year, in short the entire industry is worth 6 billion dollars in sales, the same as it was 30 years ago. It rises and falls a bit year to year, but for all intents and purposes there is no significant growth (in dollars) across more than a few decades. Fighting for the same dollars does not indicate any growth, so the companies are fighting for their share of the same market total. If you add inflation to the figures it bodes even worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You also have to factor in that in a lot of countries, populations are no longer increasing. In some European countries the populations are getting smaller. That's one reason why the global economy has been suffering for the last few years. Our whole economic system is based on the need for constant growth in order to do well. Compared to the global economy, the bike industry is holding up pretty well.


    ^ So, it makes perfect sense that the bike industry is trending sideways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^ So, it makes perfect sense that the bike industry is trending sideways.
    Trending sideways is a good thing in these economic times especially since for many, a bicycle is a luxury item (especially a mountain bike).

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Trending sideways is a good thing in these economic times especially since for many, a bicycle is a luxury item (especially a mountain bike).
    Thank you!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes I did and don't consider 6% to be a significant change or the death of mountain biking.
    However since 2006 it has only slightly fluctuated which probably means that in 2005 it simply had a spike. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

    Still not Magura
    6% of the total market, yes, and 20% of the MTB market.

    The numbers you can see everywhere else, supports that from 2002 till today, the loss of MTB market, is on the other side of 20%, so obviously 2005 is not a spike.

    Magura

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Bike Europe - Market Report

    All but E-bikes are not doing well, and have not for a number of years by now.

    I have been unable to find substantiated numbers for the states.

    The numbers you got, are about all bikes, not even just the sport segment, let alone the MTB sport segment.


    Magura
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Thanks for the hint.

    Now that you point me to it, why didn't you read it?

    MTB marketshare in 2005 = 29%
    MTB marketshare in 2011 = 23%

    That does not look like a market that is doing good.


    Magura
    If you take the relatively new Ebike market out, you will see that it is doing very well.

  94. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    If you take the relatively new Ebike market out, you will see that it is doing very well.
    The E-bike market is doing well yes, but the rest are not.

    So far all the numbers you have supplied, and the numbers I have supplied, establish that the MTB market is not doing well.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    6% of the total market, yes, and 20% of the MTB market.

    The numbers you can see everywhere else, supports that from 2002 till today, the loss of MTB market, is on the other side of 20%, so obviously 2005 is not a spike.

    Magura
    Post these so called numbers

    Again though, a mountain bike is a luxury item.

    Motorcycle sales have been down over the years too.
    Do you think that means the end of motorcycling is down?

    No, it just means people are not spending as much money during these times on things that are necessities.

    Still happy to not be Magura

    (BTW, off topic but in all honesty why the hell do people feel the need to sign their posts with their user name? It isn't like we can't see it on the side. )

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Post these so called numbers
    To be honest, I can't be bothered to spend time searching for it.
    Those numbers are all in bits and pieces, can't seem to find one single sheet that shows all the years globally, but the trend is the same all over.

    2000 to 2002 were the top MTB years, and it has slowly gone downhill from that point, with some ups and downs in the mix.


    Magura

  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    To be honest, I can't be bothered to spend time searching for it.
    Those numbers are all in bits and pieces, can't seem to find one single sheet that shows all the years globally, but the trend is the same all over.

    2000 to 2002 were the top MTB years, and it has slowly gone downhill from that point, with some ups and downs in the mix.


    Magura
    If I said the sky was blue on a clear day, you would argue it.

  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    To be honest, I can't be bothered to spend time searching for it.
    Those numbers are all in bits and pieces, can't seem to find one single sheet that shows all the years globally, but the trend is the same all over.

    2000 to 2002 were the top MTB years, and it has slowly gone downhill from that point, with some ups and downs in the mix.


    Magura
    Can't be bothered to spend the time searching for it but you can spend countless time to make posts in a thread arguing it.

    I suppose we will just have to take your word for it.

  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Can't be bothered to spend the time searching for it but you can spend countless time to make posts in a thread arguing it.

    I suppose we will just have to take your word for it.
    Don't forget, that's for an industry that he doesn't, "give a rats ass" about. He's to busy making his own parts. Unbelievable!

    Oh wait I forgot the

  100. #300
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    I think Magura is losing, so I'll see if I can't help him.
    Magura makes his own parts because the industry doesn't make better stuff anymore. It just makes different stuff. He feels no reason to "upgrade".
    So, he has shunned the biking industry and all of its hype. He does not give a rat's ass about the industry because, in his opinion, it has come to a standstill.
    However, he would care about the industry if it stopped marketing these relatively insignificant changes as revolutions and put that money into RnD. But they don't, which is what he is saying.
    Am I right, Magura?
    It's pronounced "so pro and cool."
    It was an impulse decision.

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