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  1. #51
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Its a perfect example of Charles Darwins natural selection theory, people just arnt used to hearing it in relation to grown humans, its harsh but true.
    Besides the fact that this is simply tasteless to say in this situation, it is also bad example, as he already has 4 kids.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  2. #52
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    It sounds to me like the time to start planning for his rescue was when he first left the house.

    The story is sad, I don't wish that on any family. I do hope it serves as a reminder that you need to take preparation seriously. It is easy to dismiss this one as shear stupidity, because this guy did pretty much EVERYTHING wrong, but I see people cut corners all the time in preparation that could cost them there lives.

    It is an odds game. Chances are very high that all the crap I carry around with me, while saving me from some hurt and suffering on very rare occasion, will NEVER actually save my life. But it is a risk that I see no point in exposing myself or my family to.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  3. #53
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    This thread should be locked... A guy died and all people have to say is what ( they ) would do or how he didn't prepare enough....common guys none of us were there be adults and if you don't have anything positive to say then shut the f up..... Stuff happens you don't know what happened so don't assume the worst....

    My regards to to his family real shame 4 kids lost a dad....

  4. #54
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    Re: mountain biker froze to death, sad story

    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    i've read this thread with great interest since i often do moderately long solo night rides in areas not far from san francisco that aren't used much after dark. you all make good points, especially when it comes to telling someone where you're going and plan to come back. but when it comes to this sad story, two things jump out at me right away:

    "Marin was wearing only a thin shirt that he had recently purchased and cycling shorts. He ignored his wife’s advice to bring food."

    and then this:

    "Sheriff's Lt. Zach Hall said ideally, the department would have sent a helicopter to follow the approximately 53-mile route that Marin, 34, had planned to follow along Skyline Trail, Main Divide Road and Indian Truck Trail."

    you planned on riding a FIFTY THREE MILE LOOP in questionable weather conditions wearing only a jersey and shorts with no food?

    how many of you can ride fifty miles without eating anything?

    i know i can't.

    the SARS team has much more experience at their jobs than i or almost any of us ever will. i think they made the right decision.

    i won't say more.
    QFE


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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    I doubt they will be reading this, i did actually think of that as i wrote it, but i understand what your saying, cheers
    Thanks for that.

    I think you might be surprised where family members end up online, digging for remembrances about a loved one. I've seen it commonly on climbing web sites where a relative joins the conversation about a fallen athlete. Words written on the net are immortal. Four kids will certainly, in time, want to know more about the dad they lost.

    *****

    I wrote this on another web site:

    I'm still baffled that, apparently, so few solo riders have taken advantage of the dedicated NOAA sat frequency for PLBs. You spend < 300 on a beacon, register online and you're set (in two years you'll be asked to confirm/update your reg info). The registration info includes two contact personnel. In emergency, you activate it and it sends your location to whatever emergency services cover that area. The agency can then get in touch with the registered contacts...Three bills is a no-brainer expenditure for what a beacon can do. If you can afford a decent MTB, you can afford a beacon.

    PLBs and Satellite Messengers: How to Choose

    I pack my PLB every solo ride, along with a few emergency items in case of forced bivy. A Bic lighter has turned numerous grim nights on climbing missions into mere annoyances. A spare dry layer and small light are always on board as well.

    Mike

  6. #56
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    Its a bummer that the dude died, however you have to place blame on him. people on this forum will learn from this mistake and hope this will save a life.

    I do not see anyone bashing this guy, sometimes the truth hurts that it was not a smart thing to do.
    2013 Anthem Advanced 29er
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    Raced for Mongoose Bikes from Alum,Carbon to TI.
    1987 Redline Mountain bike

  7. #57
    FriendlyNeighborhoodMTBer
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    This tragic story had me googling SAR.
    I found this on the first page.
    SMSR - Welcome to the Sierra Madre Search and Rescue Website
    "Available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year - anywhere, any time, any weather"

    I found the one related to this sad story with their entry posted on the website:
    Mission 2014-006

    More googling:
    According to these, the route was 18 miles.
    CLEVELAND NATIONAL FOREST: Mountain biker found dead (UPDATED)
    Mountain Biker Who Got Lost in Cleveland National Forest Found Dead - Police & Fire - Lake Elsinore-Wildomar, CA Patch
    If you can't play, display.

  8. #58
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    The volunteers who found him didn't rescue him any better than the SAR team did.
    I have a device that can access the total knowledge of man. I use it to look at pictures of cats and argue with strangers.

  9. #59
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    Anybody who thinks the SAR team didn't do their "job" properly should read this:
    "All of the Team members are unpaid volunteers who make themselves available regardless of the time of the day, job and personal commitments, or the weather. In a typical year the average Team member will contribute almost 1000 hours to the Team. New members typically spend over $3,000 of their own money on personal equipment when they first join the Team, and personal expenses continue as equipment is used and must be replaced."

    They stopped doing their "jobs" to go out and try to rescue this fellow. When was the last time you did that?
    I have a device that can access the total knowledge of man. I use it to look at pictures of cats and argue with strangers.

  10. #60
    the half breed devil
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    why should this thread be locked?

    why should we as the mountain biking community not express our condolences while reaffirming the need to be prepared for anything on every ride, no matter how short...or long.

    sometimes a positive will arise out of something negative. i would assume due to this incident, those responsible for SAR in the area will re evaluate their procedures...even though i think they made the correct decision...and many mountain bikers will take a little time to think about preparedness.

    don't forget, njhardrock that our sport is inherently dangerous.

  11. #61
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    Living in Orange County I know that route very well. In fact many of us snow ride up there. He rode by more than a few bailouts and did not take them. Since it is a ridgeline route the clouds would have seeing very far tough leading to his confusion on where he was. He continued to ride his bike proofing that a quad or moto could also have been used to find him. A moto can cover the whole length of the Main Divide in about 40 minutes. Motos sneak around the gates and ride out there all the time knowing that they won't get busted on the illegal stuff because the Forest Service or Sherriff is not out there in bad weather. I wonder at what point his wife knew that SAR was not going out that night. Believe me I have a handful of friends with motos that would have been to me in a hour if the call went to them. This proofs to me 911 should be the second call. These rescues are time sensitive and delays but people at risk.

    Yes he made mistakes, so do people when they leave food on the stove and go to bed and it catches fire. Point is rescue workers are used to assessing risk and I don't think the risks where that high in this case. SAR week sauce.

    Dean Stepper
    Laguna Beach CA

  12. #62
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    I wonder if the sars are donut eating cops or people in good shape. Prolly some of each.
    I got cold and lost at Oak Mtn one winter night. Freaked me out but made it down. Was trying to get a whole loop starting late. Called a ranger who said" How would I how you get out we have a hundred miles of trails."
    Keep trying to do the awesomest thing you've ever done.

  13. #63
    No Stranger to danger....
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    Quote Originally Posted by She&I View Post
    Thanks for that.

    I think you might be surprised where family members end up online, digging for remembrances about a loved one. I've seen it commonly on climbing web sites where a relative joins the conversation about a fallen athlete. Words written on the net are immortal. Four kids will certainly, in time, want to know more about the dad they lost.

    *****

    I wrote this on another web site:

    I'm still baffled that, apparently, so few solo riders have taken advantage of the dedicated NOAA sat frequency for PLBs. You spend < 300 on a beacon, register online and you're set (in two years you'll be asked to confirm/update your reg info). The registration info includes two contact personnel. In emergency, you activate it and it sends your location to whatever emergency services cover that area. The agency can then get in touch with the registered contacts...Three bills is a no-brainer expenditure for what a beacon can do. If you can afford a decent MTB, you can afford a beacon.

    PLBs and Satellite Messengers: How to Choose

    I pack my PLB every solo ride, along with a few emergency items in case of forced bivy. A Bic lighter has turned numerous grim nights on climbing missions into mere annoyances. A spare dry layer and small light are always on board as well.

    Mike
    You make some good points, i was a bit insensitive, apologies to his kids or family if they ever read this and all the power to them, cheers
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  14. #64
    Over the Hill
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamwa View Post
    I wonder if the sars are donut eating cops or people in good shape.
    In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstepper View Post
    In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.
    For every person they save, they are also part of the solution. It's a double edged sword.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstepper View Post
    In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by terrasmak View Post
    For every person they save, they are also part of the solution. It's a double edged sword.
    They are [civilian] volunteers most places. They also receive training. IME they don't let just anyone sign up and go at it with out making sure they know what they are doing.

    In this case it sounds like it was a SAR team organized by the Sheriff's department, where the team likely got orders from the Sheriff/County Officials.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstepper View Post
    In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.
    Just because someone is a volunteer it means they aren't trained and capable of doing the job. Volunteer = don't get paid. Don't assume any more than that. The VAST majority of wilderness SAR in the western US is done by volunteers. There are VERY few paid personnel. The local county Sheriff has the legal responsibility to respond to wilderness SAR incidents. Official SAR teams have an affiliation with the Sheriff as a result. The Sheriff may also have 4x4 teams, mounted posses, communication units, and other groups that participate as well. Typically the Sheriff will have a sworn deputy (Sgt., Lt. or similar) as the Incident Commander, but most of the key operations, planning and related functions are performed by experienced volunteers who are trained and have the skills to do the job. Remember, a professional is not solely defined as someone who gets paid to do a job.

    It is not unusual for mountain SAR teams to be made up of extremely experienced personnel. This includes all-season mountaineering experience in places like AK, Canada, Asia, etc., long distance hiking (18-20 miles a day with 30+ lb packs), 50+ mile MTB rides, trail running, etc. Operating on a field crew on a SAR operation requires significant fitness levels and team members work hard to maintain that fitness. Remember that once you find someone you have to be prepared to treat and stabilize them and then get them out. This is all while keeping yourself and your teammates safe as well.

    Does this mean that there aren't some people who aren't as fit? Absolutely! I have seen plenty of paid professional first responders that struggle to deal with wilderness SAR situations if the call can't be handled by a helicopter or is more than a couple miles beyond road access.

    I wasn't there and was not privy to the factors the incident commander used to make a decision to wait to deploy field crews so I won't critique the response on a public forum.

    This has been a very sad situation and nothing can make the family whole. What we can do is make sure it doesn't happen again. Your local SAR team is probably looking for the skilled, fit and motivated team member YOU could be. Don't just be a Monday morning QB. Do something to make a difference for ANYONE that may need help in the future or at a minimum, make sure you are prepared and avoid needing SAR help at all. The best incident is the one that never happens.
    Last edited by mtnrsq; 03-10-2014 at 11:46 AM. Reason: fixing some issues due to my computer freezing during my post

  18. #68
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    Definitely a wake up call for me. I've never had any major close calls, but it only takes once. It's also another reason I use strava. I post up when finished so my wife knows I've completed my ride and am headed home. As in most tragic accidents, one bad decision leads to another. This loss for his family will probably lead to others being more prepared.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    you're right...some of them are scout troops.

    Search and Rescue Merit Badge and Worksheet
    I try to learn something new everyday, and you provided. I am an adult leader in all three of our scout units (pack, troop, venture crew), and had no idea that troops can serve in SAR capacity. I suppose it makes sense, they can be tasked to cover safe ground. We once sent our older boys to Tn to help the grandparents of one of the boys who had lost their house in a tornado. Not SAR, but tons of debris to remove with nails, glass, etc.

    My experience with SAR teams has been limited to rescues in terrain that required abseiling, or steep trail terrain. Everyone I've met was a certified abseil instructor, and a few certified SAR instructor. Most have day jobs with a fire or police department, quite a few are military past or present, but some have regular jobs. I suppose this can vary from place to place, but I still consider SAR teams to be comprised of people that are professional in their SAR abilities.

    Same goes for the scouts. As an adult leader that is active in running outings, I receive regular training in basic first aid, wilderness first aid, CPR, abseiling, determining safe conditions and weather, etc. as I must be trusted to make the right call for any event we participate in. The BSA has us leaning well towards the side of safety. If they are using scouts, I would trust that the SAR coordinator has made a good judgement call on the conditions in regards to who he is letting perform a search, and any scout troop will have adult leaders with them while conducting a search that agrees with the SAR coordinator assessment.

    That said, earning the SAR merit badge does not require participation in a SAR event or association with a SAR team. Like many merit badges, it requires the scout to focus on the basic fundamentals of how a SAR team works and to learn basics that help a SAR team member be a safe and efficient component in a rescue.

    Moving on, I remember way back in the day, as a fresh young Marine, going out and doing hundred milers on the hot N.C. coastal tarmac with very little to eat, just a few bananas and maybe two or three dollars for a gas station stop. I would tank up well at the chow hall first, but I have no idea how I did that. I don't think, though, that I could have done that on a mountain bike on a soft trail. Even if the trail was very improved, (smooth, rolling) it would have been a hard push to do that distance with no food, even with 60-70 psi.

    Ah, space blankets! I always have one in my bag, even in the summer. It's amazing how close you can be to civilization, but yet so far. I've stopped to take a break for as as long as an hour on popular trails in one of our metro parks, and didn't have a single soul pass by. Traffic depends on the day. Many parts of the trails you can see housing and roads, but cannot be seen or heard. All it takes is damaging the bike and breaking a leg or ankle and you can't get out. Make that phone call if you can, but it will take about 30 minutes for the EMT's to arrive and organize their gear, and another hour or more to reach you by foot. Late in the afternoon, at the bottom of a run between ridges, temps will start dropping fast once the sun is below the ridge line. You are injured, low on energy, and now shivering. Your immune system is under attack. Even in surviving, your looking at a longer recovery than if you have been able to remain warm. Warm brings not only physical comfort, but also mental, and can help you think more clearly and make better decisions.

    Spare tubes, bike tool kit, phone or radio, energy bars, space blanket and 30ft paracord live in my seat pack.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    ....Spare tubes, bike tool kit, phone or radio, energy bars, space blanket and 30ft paracord live in my seat pack.
    And duct tape. And enough spare clothing to stay survivably warm. Include a fresh base layer to replace the wet one against your skin. If you're riding familiar trails in a group, less to worry about. If alone, be more concerned.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  21. #71
    I <3 NM
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    Tragic & Avoidable.


    Remember this sad story from a few years ago?
    another Mt biker dies on Porcupine Rim
    "Someone must have put alcohol in my beer last night." ~ Mr. Richard Baty, Esq.


  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    And duct tape. And enough spare clothing to stay survivably warm. Include a fresh base layer to replace the wet one against your skin. If you're riding familiar trails in a group, less to worry about. If alone, be more concerned.
    I agree... I should have clarified that the list was my base minimum for dry summer conditions. I have two sizes of seat packs to accomodate varying riding conditions, and also a seatpost rack with pannier bag for the occasional winter ride and every scout ride. In the big bag I can easily store extra thermal layers, rain gear, tent footprint to serve as a tarp, water bladder, etc, all inside a dry bag

    Forgot to mention I also always have my base medical kit: bandaids, mesh bandages, tape, iodine or equivalent, bush and bug allergy relief, finger splints, aspirin, ibuprofen, epi pen, and a few more items not in my brain at the moment. Some will view this as overkill, but having been involved in scouting for ten years so far, I tend to pack as if I'm at a scout event. It's probably a good thing as I often take my boys with me when I hit the trails, and they want to ride further each time we go.

  23. #73
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    If you are not going to be prepared for an emergency situation, at least be prepared for an emergency Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) | ACR ARTEX
    Pisgah Area SORBA

    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    ... your idea of technical may be much different than other peoples idea of technical.

  24. #74
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    Kit for cold weather riding on long, remote rides (not including food, energy stuff and water):

    - Small first aid kit (tape, gauze pads, neosporin, butterfly & assorted bandages, ibuprofen, antacid)
    - iodine tablets
    - Lighter and small chunk of fire starter
    - Emergency blanket
    - Light rain shell
    - Two tire levers (Pedros)
    - Pump and CO2
    - Repair kit with multi tool, extra presta valve core, extra derailleur hanger, chain tool, 2 zip ties, super glue, patches
    - GPS (on iphone, I use Mountain Bike Pro because it has an offline map feature that will show you where you are even without cell signal)
    - Headlamp for emergency light source
    - Extra tube (I run tubeless and only carry the extra tube on long rides)

    All of this weighs a little over 3 lbs, not including pack of course. Not much weight.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry68 View Post
    If you are not going to be prepared for an emergency situation, at least be prepared for an emergency Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) | ACR ARTEX
    A PLB wouldn't have changed anything, rain gear and a granola bar probably would have saved his life.

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