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  1. #51
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    All of the top guys were on dope during that time period, who cares.

    The sport is cleaner (and riders are slower) now, good.

    Don't see why we have to re-hash everything.

    Doped or not, this is sick.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    Yes, absolutely, those change your muscles and change your blood so there is a "physical advantage", where I assume that weed and LSD just give you a mental advantage, but not in all cases, it could make you think you are an orange too like happened to Syd barrett!
    1- isn't a mental advantage the biggest one?

    2- I was being kinda facetious saying all those 'aides' because the are naturally occurring or accepting in the human body.

    So you can sit on a couch, do nothing and lower all of those things.
    Conversely, you can increase that with normal exercise, then even more with rigorous exercise..then you plateau - until you eat something extra - protein supplements, carbs in a foil, sweat off a yak's nut, etc... where does it stop?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetboy23 View Post
    You really have problems if you can't move on due to Lance's doping allegations. I think the only sad thing about this whole incident is that, it is very apparent, doping is nearly the only way to compete in professional cycling (roadies).

    That all said, Livestrong has, at the very least, brought a large focus the horrible illness that is cancer and the hopes to find a way to fight it. He has also been a huge influence which boosted the American passion in all forms of cycling. I would bet this also improved the health of many folks who wouldn't have cycled before this passion. More ppl are healthier and happier now from Lance's motivation to get on a bike and just pedal.
    Excellent post

  4. #54
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    you are making a valid point there delll

    consequently, it made me wondering...

    it is a known fact that if you exercise muscles - you can make them bigger... dope certainly helps... but why does it apply to all muscles but one, arguably the most important one... i was hoping you can shed some light on this subject and maybe suggest a workaround...

    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    1- isn't a mental advantage the biggest one?

    2- I was being kinda facetious saying all those 'aides' because the are naturally occurring or accepting in the human body.

    So you can sit on a couch, do nothing and lower all of those things.
    Conversely, you can increase that with normal exercise, then even more with rigorous exercise..then you plateau - until you eat something extra - protein supplements, carbs in a foil, sweat off a yak's nut, etc... where does it stop?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    1- isn't a mental advantage the biggest one?
    You get high on Acid for 6 months and I'll get shot up with EPO for 6 months and we'll see who can turn the cranks harder, deal?

    I knwo what you mean though, the mental game is a big one for sure, but without the "mechanics" (stronger muscles and extra blood) you'll be bringing up the rear no matter what. Maybe we need third party to participate in the test, they'll take EPO and acid for 6 months prior to our race? Who is down? PM me if anyone is interested.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    You get high on Acid for 6 months and I'll get shot up with EPO for 6 months and we'll see who can turn the cranks harder, deal?

    I knwo what you mean though, the mental game is a big one for sure, but without the "mechanics" (stronger muscles and extra blood) you'll be bringing up the rear no matter what. Maybe we need third party to participate in the test, they'll take EPO and acid for 6 months prior to our race? Who is down? PM me if anyone is interested.
    good stuff
    I'll take EPO and some LSD! - a-ha!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppedrayes View Post
    lance will always be the best cyclist doper there ever was!!!
    fify
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  8. #58
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    OPRAH, he's going to do it on OPRAH!

    "On the heels of her much-publicized interview with David Letterman, Oprah just announced her next Big Get: Lance Armstrong, discussing his doping scandal, in the first interview since he was given a lifetime cycling ban by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency last summer and stripped of his seven Tour de France titles.

    Oprah will travel to Armstrong’s home in Texas for the interview. The cyclist will also address “years of accusations of cheating, and charges of lying about the use of performance-enhancing drugs throughout his storied cycling career,” according to an announcement from OWN.

    The 90-minute episode of “Oprah’s Next Chapter,” airing Thursday, Jan. 17 at 9 p.m., will also be live streamed on Oprah.com."


    From a Jan 4th article in the New York Times:

    In Reversal, Armstrong Is Said to Weigh Admitting Drug Use

    "The timeline for Armstrong’s deciding whether to confess is unclear, but it is partly based on whether the United States Justice Department will join the whistle-blower lawsuit, which was filed under the False Claims Act. The sole plaintiff of that lawsuit is Floyd Landis, Armstrong’s former Postal Service teammate, who was stripped of the 2006 Tour de France title for doping.

    If the Justice Department joins the lawsuit as a plaintiff, the case would be more formidable than if Landis pursued it alone. Landis stands to collect up to 30 percent of any money won in the case, which could be in the millions. The team’s contract with the Postal Service from 2000 to 2004 was more than $30 million."
    Last edited by June Bug; 01-09-2013 at 04:54 AM. Reason: Added apostrophe!

  9. #59
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    Oprah will travel to Armstrong’s home in Texas for the interview.
    That's right, bow before the king!

    Or is it too soon to joke about this ish yet?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    That's right, bow before the king! Or is it too soon to joke about this ish yet?
    Too soon? This is so ripe for parody I can hardly wrap my mind around it....I just hope we haven't all been punked by an Onion article.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    To rid the world of dopes?
    Yeah, sure. And why is that is a good thing?

    It is a frigging bicycle race. A game. An entertainment.

    Nobody cares. And Lance should not admit anything. I would hate to see that USADA self-promoting ****** happy. I do not like him much more than Armstrong in this whole sad story. There was no need to go after Lance, he is not racing anymore, and they did not catch him with tests, like other guys, when he was. Nothing good happened out of this, except cheap entertainment for petty people.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollyw00d View Post
    wait, Lance was doping???

    my life = ruined.
    my reality = shattered.

    What next????? NFL players on steroids?? WWF wrestling not real??

    Raise your hand if you've never cheated, or taken a short cut to tilt the odds in your favor?

    I'm not advocating that he get to keep the titles (frankly I don't care), but this is getting as bad as Roger Clemens... A CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION????? Our nation is in shambles (relatively) and we're more concerned with who's Snookie's babies daddy, or which athlete cheated.

    Am I the only one who sees a serious disconnect here?

    While I like what you write, and totally agree with what you say, I cannot agree with the sentiment inferred when you ask who of us has never cheated in some way. Perhaps I am a complete oddball, but I don't think so, deviant sexual fetishes aside, and I have never cheated or tilted the odds in my favor by taking a short cut. I played competitive rugby for many years in the UK when I was young, and saw nothing of any kind of cheating, apart from the usual biting, hacking and gouging that was a part of that game! The only 'doping' was a pint or two after the match. I raced a National MTB series in the UK in the late 80s, and saw no evidence of anything like that myself, although I would not be surprised if people were using some kind of performance-enhancing stuff at the highest levels. Personally, and I am sure this goes for the great majority of people racing there, I would not have dreamed of trying to cheat in any way. What, after all, is the point of competing if you cheat? What satisfaction of a job well done could there be if you cheat? What, apart from the desire for fame and the greed for financial reward, could be the motivation to try one's best?
    The real sadness in all this, to my mind, is that these desires, fame and money, trump all the positive benefits of competitive sport that, to my mind at least, make it all worthwhile.
    It's all Here. Now.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollyw00d View Post
    Raise your hand if you've never cheated, or taken a short cut to tilt the odds in your favor?
    While I like what you write, and totally agree with what you say, I cannot agree with the sentiment inferred when you ask who of us has never cheated in some way. Perhaps I am a complete oddball, but I don't think so, deviant sexual fetishes aside, and I have never cheated or tilted the odds in my favor by taking a short cut. I played competitive rugby for many years in the UK when I was young, and saw nothing of any kind of cheating, apart from the usual biting, hacking and gouging that was a part of that game! The only 'doping' was a pint or two after the match. I raced a National MTB series in the UK in the late 80s, and saw no evidence of anything like that myself, although I would not be surprised if people were using some kind of performance-enhancing stuff at the highest levels. Personally, and I am sure this goes for the great majority of people racing there, I would not have dreamed of trying to cheat in any way. What, after all, is the point of competing if you cheat? What satisfaction of a job well done could there be if you cheat? What, apart from the desire for fame and the greed for financial reward, could be the motivation to try one's best?
    The real sadness in all this, to my mind, is that these desires, fame and money, trump all the positive benefits of competitive sport that, to my mind at least, make it all worthwhile.
    Have you ever used a tire lever? If you used a tire lever you cheated against your tire You got an advantage. A mechanical one anyway. That follows in the original posters context, but I doubt it was his meaning. Many things can give advantage or tilt odds in favor that are not considered bad.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    I blame George Bush. They're both Texans, right?
    Well, W. is maybe, kinda, sorta but not really a Texan; all hat and no cattle, even though he (technically) has a ranch.
    They did both spend "formative" years in Midland, though (Lance all and W. some).

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Have you ever used a tire lever? If you used a tire lever you cheated against your tire You got an advantage. A mechanical one anyway. That follows in the original posters context, but I doubt it was his meaning. Many things can give advantage or tilt odds in favor that are not considered bad.
    I hear you, and this brings up the argument of mechanical advantage, and what constitutes cheating and bending the rules in that. Any fan of motor racing knows all about those shenanigans, and advances in technology with bicycles could also be considered an unfair advantage in many instances. However, the way I see it, these tech advances that are driven by competition are a positive, and can be regulated, and indeed are regulated. This system is not always the most efficient in many people's eyes, but it is a lot easier to regulate than chemicals in the human body, and I simply cannot see any positive benefits that could come from artificial and illicit performance enhancing drug usage.

    Our perceptions of what is at stake in sport have sucked a lot of the fun out of it.
    It's all Here. Now.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    . Many things can give advantage or tilt odds in favor that are not considered bad.


    Just look at the shoe wars between Nike and Reebok... Jump higher, run faster... spend more. The ladies swim suit controversy in the Olympics advantages are all around. Should he have dopped? that is a personal choice he made right or wrong is his problem but it is obvious that all the top guys were doing it. So then do we say that if he had not chances are he would not have won? and to further go down the rabbit hole, if all the top guys were doing it then I guess they were playing on the same level field correct? and lance still kicked thier collective asses.

    JMHO

  17. #67
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    I think the best that could come out of this is for him to admit his involvement, and in the next breath, throw Trek with all it's big $, and high pressure "we need to win so we can sell more units" expectations, under the bus.

    I've no doubt he did it, but am befuddled why it's not even in the discussion that he had help from his sponsors. That he would carry off a program like this and not have their assistance, or at a minimum, tacit approval, is improbable at best. You just don't do something like this under your bosses nose without them signing off (and handing you a few bucks for supplies too).....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I think the best that could come out of this is for him to admit his involvement, and in the next breath, throw Trek with all it's big $, and high pressure "we need to win so we can sell more units" expectations, under the bus.

    I've no doubt he did it, but am befuddled why it's not even in the discussion that he had help from his sponsors. That he would carry off a program like this and not have their assistance, or at a minimum, tacit approval, is improbable at best. You just don't do something like this under your bosses nose without them signing off (and handing you a few bucks for supplies too).....
    So true... it is hard to believe that those involved at every level of this issue did not have at least that tacit approval, whether grudgingly or not. If you are going to attempt to clean this mess up, then go into the dark dirty little corners everywhere with that steam jet!
    It's all Here. Now.

  19. #69
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    It will be interesting to see what he does, at this point an admission would just confirm what everyone already knows. I think he's kinda screwed either way on this one...

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    While I like what you write, and totally agree with what you say, I cannot agree with the sentiment inferred when you ask who of us has never cheated in some way. Perhaps I am a complete oddball, but I don't think so, deviant sexual fetishes aside, and I have never cheated or tilted the odds in my favor by taking a short cut. I played competitive rugby for many years in the UK when I was young, and saw nothing of any kind of cheating, apart from the usual biting, hacking and gouging that was a part of that game! The only 'doping' was a pint or two after the match. I raced a National MTB series in the UK in the late 80s, and saw no evidence of anything like that myself, although I would not be surprised if people were using some kind of performance-enhancing stuff at the highest levels. Personally, and I am sure this goes for the great majority of people racing there, I would not have dreamed of trying to cheat in any way. What, after all, is the point of competing if you cheat? What satisfaction of a job well done could there be if you cheat? What, apart from the desire for fame and the greed for financial reward, could be the motivation to try one's best?
    The real sadness in all this, to my mind, is that these desires, fame and money, trump all the positive benefits of competitive sport that, to my mind at least, make it all worthwhile
    .
    Generational perhaps
    It does seem more acceptable to the younger generation ... The original Napster comes to mind.

    And yea, a broad brush is being used to claim everyone has cheated at something

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jekyllrob View Post
    it will be interesting to see what he does, at this point an admission would just confirm what everyone already knows. i think he's kinda screwed either way on this one...
    +1000

  22. #72
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    I'm much more put off by the way he treated people than the dope itself. Pressuring others to dope, bending over backwards to destroy the careers and lives of those who opposed him or threatened to expose his doping are far more heinous offenses IMO.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmatty View Post
    Jekyll & Hyde for sure!!
    Top end athletes aren't like the rest of us. They can't be. Your ally this week might be your enemy next and a true pro will slaughter them as if they never meet them. So yeah, they will drink a beer with you today and rip your heart out tomo...ya know, like a roadie.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy f View Post
    I'm much more put off by the way he treated people than the dope itself. Pressuring others to dope, bending over backwards to destroy the careers and lives of those who opposed him or threatened to expose his doping are far more heinous offenses IMO.
    this ^ ^ ^

    same feeling here...
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  25. #75
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    Professional sports suck

    If you idolize a sports "hero", you suck

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