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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Lance was never proven clean, he rorted the system and plenty knew about it.
    There was a mountain of talk about him being a drug cheat, and this is during his career,
    and now its been proven....
    Well, nothing has really been proven.

    However, I have a feeling that will change after the Opera interview.

  2. #52
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    [QUOTEBTW, just out of curiosity who here could name the 2nd place winner of every year from 1999 to 2005?][/QUOTE]

    This is such a red herring. Who cares ? Lance cheated and ****ed people over. The guy does meet the criteria for sociopath.
    He seemed like such a great gift for cycling. Miracle one ball cancer man! However once you unwrap that wrapping paper and delve a bit furthur you realize how bad he is.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, nothing has really been proven.
    yeah, you pretty much got us there....

    after all, LA's dirty drugs tests have proven nothing.

    his documented perjury have proven nothing.

    his documented blackmailing, extortion, retaliation, and pay-offs has proven nothing.

    his documented association with a known drug doctor and the money trail of over $1,000,000 leading from LA to ferarri.

    the sworn testimony of 30+ people proves nothing either.

    the fact that he willing accepted having his wins stripped and banned for life rather than face the evidence/testimony in an open hearing proves nothing.

    the fact that he's considering coming clean now that he sees that in his benefit proves nothing.

    my guess is that for LA's minions in his peanut gallery it will prove nothing even if he admits everything.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by petersbike View Post
    [QUOTEBTW, just out of curiosity who here could name the 2nd place winner of every year from 1999 to 2005?]
    This is such a red herring. Who cares ? Lance cheated and ****ed people over. The guy does meet the criteria for sociopath.
    He seemed like such a great gift for cycling. Miracle one ball cancer man! However once you unwrap that wrapping paper and delve a bit furthur you realize how bad he is.[/QUOTE]

    I like this whole "red herring" claim people are taking.

    I have no answer, so I will claim red herring.

    BTW, your second part of your response is what you would call a red herring. Just saying.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    yeah, you pretty much got us there....

    after all, LA's dirty drugs tests have proven nothing.

    his documented perjury have proven nothing.

    his documented blackmailing, extortion, retaliation, and pay-offs has proven nothing.

    his documented association with a known drug doctor and the money trail of over $1,000,000 leading from LA to ferarri.

    the sworn testimony of 30+ people proves nothing either.

    the fact that he willing accepted having his wins stripped and banned for life rather than face the evidence/testimony in an open hearing proves nothing.

    the fact that he's considering coming clean now that he sees that in his benefit proves nothing.

    my guess is that for LA's minions in his peanut gallery it will prove nothing even if he admits everything.
    You are mistaking "PROOF" for what we know to be probably true.
    What we see as probably true though is nothing more than a matter of opinion.

    Would hate to see you on a jury.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I would bet money that lance not doping would have beaten every non doper.
    Lance not doping probably would have also beaten several of the dopers.
    yeah, as a clean rider he really handed everyone their ass by being nothing more than a pack filler who couldn't finish a tour.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjuled
    However, I would bet the majority of us that say we would never do what Lance did would do exactly what Lance did if presented the opportunity.
    speak for yourself. i'd rather never be a contender than win like LA did. it's called personal integrity. read up on it some time, your pro-cheating position suggests you have little if any first hand knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjuled
    If Lance would not have doped up, nobody would know his name at all.
    'nuff said.
    Last edited by monogod; 01-11-2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    yup.
    Double yup. Doping is the least of Lance's problems.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    You are mistaking "PROOF" for what we know to be probably true.
    What we see as probably true though is nothing more than a matter of opinion.

    Would hate to see you on a jury.
    aw geez... you just pwned us again.

    and here all this time we mistakenly believed documented perjury, documented failed drug tests, and documented money trails of cover-ups, bribes, and money funneled to a known drug doctor he swore to have no contact consisted of proof when the whole time they were nothing but a matter of opinion.

    good thing you set us straight.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    speak for yourself. i'd rather never be a contender than win like LA did. it's called personal integrity. read up on it some time, your pro-cheating position suggests you have little if any first hand knowledge.
    So easily said when you are not even a contender.
    I also love how you assume what my position is just because I have an understanding of the other guys reasons and don't turn my back on him.

    Walk a mile in a mans shoes before you judge him.
    If you busted your ass all your life to do things the right way only to fall short because the guys ahead of you were breaking the rules, I would bet money your "integrity" would fall short. Now, we could go round and round and you could claim whatever you want and I could claim whatever I want but when it comes right down to it, we will never know because neither of us are even contenders.

    Desperation will make most men do what they otherwise would claim they never would do.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    aw geez... you just pwned us again.

    and here all this time we mistakenly believed documented perjury, documented failed drug tests, and documented money trails of cover-ups, bribes, and money funneled to a known drug doctor he swore to have no contact consisted of proof when the whole time they were nothing but a matter of opinion.

    good thing you set us straight.
    Awe geez, I am sawy, I feel so pwned now.

    Lets throw out a whole thread of sarcasm and insults since we can't prove our point.

    FYI, I believe he did dope.
    However unless you were there to see it first hand, it is opinion.

    The difference is, I can separate factual proof from my opinion or belief.
    Not that I care, I believe he did do it.
    However, there still is no concrete proof that he did.

    I believe he will eventually fess up and then we have that proof, but guess what, I still won't care.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    So easily said when you are not even a contender.
    I also love how you assume what my position is
    you post what your position is. i have assumed nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjuled
    If you busted your ass all your life to do things the right way only to fall short because the guys ahead of you were breaking the rules, I would bet money your "integrity" would fall short.
    my guess is you are not a professional gambler. you like to throw "i would bet" around but the last few times you've done it here you've been on the losing end.

    i could give you several very specific instances that would prove your last wager to be a losing one, but this isn't about me. nor will any amount of your floundering around wildly throwing red herring make it be.

    btw... quite the contradiction you've introduced by admonishing me to "never judge a man..." but then turning around and doing that very thing by saying "i would bet your "integrity" would fall short".

    which is it? don't judge a man or judge him? you can't have it both ways.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, nothing has really been proven.

    However, I have a feeling that will change after the Opera interview.
    Yes it has, have you been living under a rock the past year?
    Seriously, you want proof?
    There is a mountain of evidence, why are you so arrogant?

  13. #63
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    I suppose we could just keep going round and round but I need to get up early to go biking. Now that they are busting all the dopers, I think I could be a contender.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Awe geez, I am sawy, I feel so pwned now.

    Lets throw out a whole thread of sarcasm and insults since we can't prove our point.

    FYI, I believe he did dope.
    However unless you were there to see it first hand, it is opinion.

    The difference is, I can separate factual proof from my opinion or belief.
    Not that I care, I believe he did do it.
    However, there still is no concrete proof that he did.

    I believe he will eventually fess up and then we have that proof, but guess what, I still won't care.
    The USADA has a mountain of proof, some of it like phone records, doctors and first hand witnesses, paper trails, this is concrete proof, so much so that Lance would not face the proof on the big day...
    Lance is 100% guilty as charged, 100% there is no doubt in any rational persons mind..
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    However unless you were there to see it first hand, it is opinion.
    those who disbelieve and/or disregard anything of which they lack first hand knowledge live in very tiny worlds.

    using this logic history books are filled with mere opinion. the holocost? meh... mere opinion. space flight? unsubstantiated personal belief by kooks. some moron was on the news yesterday with an opinion there was a shooting in a california school. i guess we shouldn't believe it since we weren't there to see it first hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjuled
    The difference is, I can separate factual proof from my opinion or belief.
    actually you cannot. when provided with factual proof you dismissed it as unsubstantiated opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjuled
    However, there still is no concrete proof that he did.
    your refusal to acknowledge concrete proof does not negate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjuled
    I believe he will eventually fess up and then we have that proof
    hmmmm. by your own logic it would stand to reason that since we weren't there to see it first hand we'll be bound to dismiss any confession from LA as nothing more than mere opinion.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, I lied and will post one more time before I go to bed. lol

    I can separate proof from reality just fine.
    If the proof is presented in front of me, I will accept it.
    Yes, I still believe he did it, but yet have not seen the proof.
    You don't see any proof either as the proof has not been made 100% public and you just take the claims of others that they have proof.
    However even if the proof becomes public it still will not change the fact that I understand why he did it, and could really care less that he did.

    If 100 people on these forums claim that you have a small penis, I wouldn't take it as factual even though I believe it to be true. Even if they all proved it, it still would not change the fact that could really care less that your penis is small.

    You see what I sis there?

    BTW, me changing the topic to me about your small penis is a red herring.

    Are you high?
    Let me see if i got this right. Just because you peronsally have not seen the mountain of evidence against him, you are trying to argue the fact that there is no proof?
    Really, grow up.

  17. #67
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    No, are you?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, I lied and will post one more time before I go to bed. lol

    I can separate proof from reality just fine.
    If the proof is presented in front of me, I will accept it.
    Yes, I still believe he did it, but yet have not seen the proof.
    You don't see any proof either as the proof has not been made 100% public and you just take the claims of others that they have proof.
    However even if the proof becomes public it still will not change the fact that I understand why he did it, and could really care less that he did.

    If 100 people on these forums claim that you have a small penis, I wouldn't take it as factual even though I believe it to be true. Even if they all proved it, it still would not change the fact that could really care less that your penis is small.

    You see what I sis there?

    BTW, me changing the topic to me about your small penis is a red herring.

    LOL, If 100 people on this forum have seen your penis and say that it is very small, then it is a fact, unless it is one big conspiracy to make it look like you have a small penis.

    Many people that have nothing to gain or lose say they saw lance dope, eye witnesses, not second hand accounts.
    Theres no way in hell its a conspiracy against him, its as good as a fact...
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  19. #69
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    Damn this insomnia

    Yes, many people have very little to nothing to gain or lose.

    I have nothing to gain or lose to inform everyone of monogods small penis.

    However, now that the cat is out of the bag, lets discuss that because it has more relevance to then LA's doping.


  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Damn this insomnia

    Yes, many people have very little to nothing to gain or lose.

    I have nothing to gain or lose to inform everyone of monogods small penis.

    However, now that the cat is out of the bag, lets discuss that because it has more relevance to then LA's doping.
    TRANSLATION: "my mom's letting stay up especially late cuz it's the weekend so i'm going to sit in her basement on the interwebs and talk about my most favoritest thing in the whole wide world... penises."
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I suppose we could just keep going round and round but I need to get up early to go biking. Now that they are busting all the dopers, I think I could be a contender.
    Hold on I cannot defend my opinions anymore, I have got to go biking.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    TRANSLATION: "my mom's letting stay up especially late cuz it's the weekend so i'm going to sit in her basement on the interwebs and talk about my most favoritest thing in the whole wide world... penises."
    Close, but it wouldn't be plural as my most favorite thing in the world is not penises, just my penis.

    Funny, that is also your moms most favorite thing in the world....my penis.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by petersbike View Post
    Hold on I cannot defend my opinions anymore, I have got to go biking.
    That ploy would have worked if I didn't post several times due to not actually going to sleep after I made that statement.

    Sorry, but try again later.

  24. #74
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    Really ? You have just been posting about Penises since then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Funny, that is also your moms most favorite thing in the world....my penis.
    You kind of farked up majorly here.
    Do not, I repeat, Do not sit behind your keyboard saying stuff you normally won't say to someones face in real life, there is one simple reason why...you know why and if you don't theres no point me telling you why.
    Maybe you should lay off the computer for today.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    my mom's letting stay up especially late cuz it's the weekend so i'm going to sit in her basement on the interwebs and talk about my most favoritest thing in the whole wide world... penises."
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued
    Close, but it wouldn't be plural as my most favorite thing in the world is not penises, just my penis.
    hmmmm... so by your own admission you live in your mom's basement, she lets you stay up late on the weekend, and you're fascinated by your own own penis.


    i am jack's complete lack of surprise.


    the two options:

    1. you're a prepubescent boy who has not yet discovered how awesome girls are; or

    2. you're a grown man living in your mom's basement who either still has no idea how awesome girls are or is shunned by them.

    which is it?
    Last edited by monogod; 01-12-2013 at 12:58 AM.
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  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    You kind of farked up majorly here.
    Do not, I repeat, Do not sit behind your keyboard saying stuff you normally won't say to someones face in real life, there is one simple reason why...you know why and if you don't theres no point me telling you why.
    Maybe you should lay off the computer for today.
    LOL, C'mon , it was pretty funny, even mono probably thought it was funny haha
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  28. #78
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    Tones, it's funny up to a point. I'm ok with mum jokes and whatnot in a comical environment, but when it comes up out of the blue in debate/arguement, then generally it's used to antagonise, and that I'm not ok with.

  29. #79
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    in regards to the tone and direction of this thread, which i have been reading with amusement:

    in organized team sports, a good team will often play down to the level of a bad opponent, which at times will allow said bad opponent to beat the superior team.

    my two cents...

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    yeah, you pretty much got us there....

    after all, LA's dirty drugs tests have proven nothing.

    his documented perjury have proven nothing.

    his documented blackmailing, extortion, retaliation, and pay-offs has proven nothing.

    his documented association with a known drug doctor and the money trail of over $1,000,000 leading from LA to ferarri.

    the sworn testimony of 30+ people proves nothing either.

    the fact that he willing accepted having his wins stripped and banned for life rather than face the evidence/testimony in an open hearing proves nothing.

    the fact that he's considering coming clean now that he sees that in his benefit proves nothing.

    my guess is that for LA's minions in his peanut gallery it will prove nothing even if he admits everything.
    Well said. Lance is the ultimate scumbag, its funny that he wanted to come clean now only to get something in return. Unbelievable. Its not even that he cheated, a lot of them did, it was the way he bullied, lied and cheated the entire way through. Now he's a national disgrace. He earned that last distinction. The media is not giving this man a pass for admitting anything at this,point. It's not that he cheated, its how he did it and the way he went about it. He deserves nothing in return for admitting to be a lying cheating dirtbag. Sorry guys, i know some of you like him, but I have no respect for this man.
    Last edited by mazspeed; 01-12-2013 at 01:08 AM.

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  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Lance tried to destroy people. That is a few notches above doping, so anyone who suggests that "its okay because everyone was doing it" really needs to have a long look at themselves.
    How exactly did Lance destroy people? Did he plant false evidence on someone, then call the cops? Did he verbally abuse people, grinding them into misery? Or is the "destroying" you speak of just the commentators saying stuff like "Lance absolutely destroys Vinokourov!!" when in fact all he was doing was to ride his bike slightly faster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    And that's a shame. I'd rather see what men can do than what drugs can do. Even if that is a lot slower.
    Watch some amateur bike racing, it's mostly clean as there is no real money in that.

    The trouble is, if they started televising amateur races it would attract advertising, big money and suddenly it's no longer just about the glory, riders will make it a living and need to win more often rather than just once in a while, some will start cheating and we're back at the "cheat or be poor and forgotten"-dilemma.

    If you want to watch clean sport, no matter what kind, you have to get out there and watch the grassroots live. As soon as a sport gets televised, the big money enters and people start cheating to stay ahead and get the wins.

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    Emma O'Reilly. Greg LeMond. Betsy and Frankie Andrue. David Walsh. Five names of people that were highly affected by LA's attempt to destroy them. Many more are out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MNRon View Post
    Emma O'Reilly. Greg LeMond. Betsy and Frankie Andrue. David Walsh. Five names of people that were highly affected by LA's attempt to destroy them. Many more are out there.
    Again, how did he try to destroy them?

    Just picking one, Emma O'Reilly was signed to the team as a handyman, doing laundry, preparing meals, massaging sore legs, stuff like that. I haven't seen her contract, but I think it's safe to bet that there was some sort of clause about discretion in there. Despite that she chooses to spill her guts in a book. She gets sued by the team for doing so and the team tried to discredit her statements by telling nasty stories about her. How is that destroying someone? Is she now destroyed?

    If I speak ill of my employer I'll probably end up being fired. If there was a discretion clause in my contract I might end up being sued. Does that mean that my employer is evil and trying to destroy me? Or are they merely doing what every corporation would do to protect their name and setting an example to other employees about honoring the discretion clause?

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    You kind of farked up majorly here.
    Do not, I repeat, Do not sit behind your keyboard saying stuff you normally won't say to someones face in real life, there is one simple reason why...you know why and if you don't theres no point me telling you why.
    Maybe you should lay off the computer for today.
    Actually, there is a lot of things I would say in person that would surprise you.
    But if a joke gets to you that bad there the must be some truth to it.

    It obviously did't bother mono as much because either I am prepubescent or an adult living in my moms basement and he doesn't take me seriously. Also he knows it to not be true. However, it seems to bother you, I wonder why?

    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    hmmmm... so by your own admission you live in your mom's basement, she lets you stay up late on the weekend, and you're fascinated by your own own penis.


    i am jack's complete lack of surprise.


    the two options:

    1. you're a prepubescent boy who has not yet discovered how awesome girls are; or

    2. you're a grown man living in your mom's basement who either still has no idea how awesome girls are or is shunned by them.

    which is it?
    Yup, that is what it is... you chose, I will go with either one.


    Quote Originally Posted by mazspeed View Post
    Well said. Lance is the ultimate scumbag,

    Oh, c'mon.
    Ultimate scumbag? Really?

    So you think he is low than murderers, rapists and pedophiles?
    Or is he just equally as low?

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Watch some amateur bike racing, it's mostly clean as there is no real money in that.

    The trouble is, if they started televising amateur races it would attract advertising, big money and suddenly it's no longer just about the glory, riders will make it a living and need to win more often rather than just once in a while, some will start cheating and we're back at the "cheat or be poor and forgotten"-dilemma.

    If you want to watch clean sport, no matter what kind, you have to get out there and watch the grassroots live. As soon as a sport gets televised, the big money enters and people start cheating to stay ahead and get the wins.

    Well said.

    I don't think anyone is saying it is ok because everyone is doing it.
    We are just saying we understand the nature of the beast.

    It is real easy to point fingers and call somebody a scumbag and say you would never do something but when millions of dollars are waved in your face, I am sure a lot of those attitudes will change.

    Say you won't and believe you won't if it makes you feel better but in reality everyone has a price they would be willing to pay to be on top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    It obviously did't bother mono as much because either I am prepubescent or an adult living in my moms basement and he doesn't take me seriously. Also he knows it to not be true. However, it seems to bother you, I wonder why?
    I haven't read anything by mono saying he didn't mind that statement, and I challenge you to find me where he did say he didn't mind. Dont tell me how you think mono feels.
    Even if he didn't mind, that does not make it ok.
    Bringing a mom into a debate/arguement to me indicates a complete lack of respect and intelligence, why the fark would you even go there?
    Thats all I have to say on the subject.

  39. #89
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    It's starting to look like he is gonna admit doping. Now, will he ever give Landis a nickle?

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I haven't read anything by mono saying he didn't mind that statement, and I challenge you to find me where he did say he didn't mind. Dont tell me how you think mono feels.
    Even if he didn't mind, that does not make it ok.
    Bringing a mom into a debate/arguement to me indicates a complete lack of respect and intelligence, why the fark would you even go there?
    Thats all I have to say on the subject.
    I challenge you to find where I said he didn't mind.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNRon View Post
    Emma O'Reilly. Greg LeMond. Betsy and Frankie Andrue. David Walsh. Five names of people that were highly affected by LA's attempt to destroy them. Many more are out there.
    No doubt about it, Lance is a low life of the highest order.

    Even people like, David Berkowitz (son of sam), Richard Remirez, Ted Bundy have been honest after they where caught.

    But Lance remains in the class of the John Wayne Gacy's of this world and has never had the balls to come clean, and has continued to throw others under the bus to cover his own ass.......
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I challenge you to find where I said he didn't mind.
    Post #87
    I even quoted you....are you blind?

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Post #87
    I even quoted you....are you blind?
    No, but I know basic reading comprehension.

    I said it didn't bother him AS MUCH.

    No where did I say he didn't mind or that it didn't bother him at all.
    There is a difference.

    You would think that since you even quoted it, you would be able to at least comprehend it.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    and has continued to throw others under the bus to cover his own ass.......
    Maybe he'll throw Oprah under the bus.

    Hank

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Again, how did he try to destroy them?

    Just picking one, Emma O'Reilly was signed to the team as a handyman, doing laundry, preparing meals, massaging sore legs, stuff like that. I haven't seen her contract, but I think it's safe to bet that there was some sort of clause about discretion in there. Despite that she chooses to spill her guts in a book. She gets sued by the team for doing so and the team tried to discredit her statements by telling nasty stories about her. How is that destroying someone? Is she now destroyed?

    If I speak ill of my employer I'll probably end up being fired. If there was a discretion clause in my contract I might end up being sued. Does that mean that my employer is evil and trying to destroy me? Or are they merely doing what every corporation would do to protect their name and setting an example to other employees about honoring the discretion clause?
    How about LeMond and Trek? Documented that LA used his influence to get Trek to drop The LeMond line.

    As far as an employer handling itself after firing someone, they don't libel someone in the press while in a lawsuit with them.

  46. #96
    bhc
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    So will Lemond be in the audience on the Oprah show?

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHank View Post
    Maybe he'll throw Oprah under the bus.
    That's no way to treat a bus.

  48. #98
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    Not only did he cheat, but he crucified all those who dare challenged him. He does not deserve a pass.

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    No, but I know basic reading comprehension.

    I said it didn't bother him AS MUCH.

    No where did I say he didn't mind or that it didn't bother him at all.
    There is a difference.

    You would think that since you even quoted it, you would be able to at least comprehend it.
    Are you thick?
    How the hell do you know that "it didn't bother him AS MUCH"?
    It means the same thing, you are assuming on how he feels.
    Quit whle you're behind.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    No, but I know basic reading comprehension.

    I said it didn't bother him AS MUCH.

    No where did I say he didn't mind or that it didn't bother him at all.
    There is a difference.

    I'll jump into this....

    The affect you were looking for was to belittle his mother and make the argument personal... Most likely because you were not being heard or agreed with. ( 'llI go with the latter)

    It's a deflection tactic to amp up the other person, and then when they blow-up, you use that as a chance to chop them down. to make proof, they are the irrational one.


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