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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Again, I don't think so many people think it is OK to cheat just understand why he did.
    It goes back to something I asked earlier.

    If you busted your ass your whole life to get to the top and realized that you kept falling short because the guys on top were doping, what would you do? Would you chose to stay clean knowing you would never beat the dopers and just fade away losing potentially millions of dollars or do you throw your hat in the ring, do what the guys that are beating you are doing and hope to not get caught.

    I believe most people here are good people and would like to believe that under all adversity they would always do the right thing no matter what the consequences are. However, I think that many of us if faced with that adversity would be surprised on what we would do to get on the top.
    Ya mean,
    Turn in the cheater, so an investigation could be conducted

    Someone of strong will,
    Would not become a cheater, just to beat a cheat YMMV.

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Ya mean,
    Turn in the cheater, so an investigation could be conducted

    Someone of strong will,
    Would not become a cheater, just to beat a cheat YMMV.
    In theory turning in the cheaters would be ideal.
    However as we all know they still could not catch them.
    They knew it was happening, but still didn't know how to catch them.
    So the guy behind them turning them in really just comes across as sour grapes.

    Proof is in the pudding.
    How many times was LA investigated and how many times did he get away with it?

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Ok, so what you are saying is that dishonesty is dishonesty and it is all the same no matter which way you rationalize it?
    Murder is murder ... Regardless of who dies.

  4. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    If you did, then I'm not sure why you asked that question in that way. Either you did not comprehend it, or you are ignoring the findings. Since you are asking me to explain it to you for some reason (troll), I will.

    1. You said the Wall Street guys effected the global economy and the TDF is the TDF - suggesting the magnitude wasn't the same. Airely discussed in the very beginning that his research finds that a lot of little cheaters effects the economy negatively at exponentially higher rates than the few big cheaters. Armstrong's cheating resulted in accumulation of wealth for himself and those involved to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. On a global scale, it was small, but in a micro scale, it was massive. Since many of the riders rationalized using PEDs, all those little bits of cheating led to one massive cheat. Add up all the sponsorship dollars, all the advertising, all the bike sales, all the books sold, all the posters hanging on walls, all the dreams crushed as a result of the rationalizing of the cheating and you'll see how big this fraud was.

    2. When you stated you understand the guy getting laid off and stealing and do not understand the lazy guy robbing, what you did was rationalize the same behavior that takes place in two different socio-economic strata. You could see yourself getting laid off and stealing to feed your family, but you couldn't see yourself mugging someone because you can't rationalize that behavior. But the reason your statement is ignorant and elitest is, because, robberies are most often committed by males from the lower socio-economic strata and are "motivated by life’s needs, rather than drugs" (Gill 2001; Matthews 2002; Mouzos & Borzycki 2003).

    Stealing a pencil is the same as taking 10 cents from petty cash to go buy a pencil just as stealing groceries is the same as mugging someone to go buy groceries.

    Cheating to win a race to get more sponsorship money is the same as embezzling hundreds of millions of dollars from several corporations and personal bank accounts of people who belived you were playing by the rules. Using your fraudulent success story as a way to motivate people to do better in their lives is the same as a pastor who preaches against same sex marriage while paying male prostitutes for sex behind closed doors.

    Rationalizing dishonesty at any level is bad for ourselves and each other. The reason Lance Armstrong wants to come clean is explained at the end of the video. He wants to wash himself clean and show that he is remorseful. Well, guess what? So does Bernie Madoff. But, deep down, neither of them think they did anything wrong. They are only sorry they got caught. In Armstrong's case, he's sorry that he is no longer looked at as the greatest cyclist of all time.

    He wants to come back and prove to everyone that he can do it without PEDs. But he doesn't deserve that.

    Lance Armstrong deserves to be in prison, or a mental ward, because, that's where sociopaths belong.
    Amen... very good wmac...
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  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Rationalizing dishonesty at any level is bad for ourselves and each other.

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Murder is murder ... Regardless of who dies.
    Yes, but if you go out, purchase a gun, stalk somebody and kill them does it hold the same criminal weight then if you get in an argument with somebody and in the heat of the fight pick up a knife and stab them once and they die. What if you stab them multiple times?

    Yes, no matter which way you slice it, somebody is dead.
    However, there is still a difference between 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, and manslaughter.

    If an athlete dopes, I don't think he or she means to hurt others in the sport, but instead just to give themselves an edge.

  7. #282
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    To compare this to Madoff shows complete idiotic logic. How many of you are jobless now, lost your money, savings funds since LA is guilty? None.

    Okay so he came clean big deal? What effect does this have to anyone posting in here? What have you gained or lost that you simply can't function ?

    Wall Street is the heart of America, it can crush over 300 million people within seconds..LA =just another user that finally got busted with others, that's all.

  8. #283
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    in case there is argument that my post was blasphemous..
    Lance Armstrong finally to come clean?-oprah-funny.jpg
    i'm on my Last Herb
    RestInPeace Hook

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    So, if I positioned myself where I can't be wrong then I must be right.

    Next time would you prefer if I position myself where I can be totally wrong or only partially wrong?
    I think the only position you've actually proved is that you will go to any lengths not to be wrong. I'm not sure if that makes you totally wrong or only partially wrong.

    Now that he's confessed all that's left is the chirp of the solitary cricket.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  10. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Ya mean,
    Turn in the cheater, so an investigation could be conducted

    Someone of strong will,
    Would not become a cheater, just to beat a cheat YMMV.
    In theory turning in the cheaters would be ideal.
    However as we all know they still could not catch them.
    They knew it was happening, but still didn't know how to catch them.
    So the guy behind them turning them in really just comes across as sour grapes.

    Proof is in the pudding.
    How many times was LA investigated and how many times did he get away with it?
    Big assumptions on your part.

    And based on that assumption, you'd not do a thing, because you don't believe it would do any good ... That's what I'm reading.
    Giving up without trying


  11. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Murder is murder ... Regardless of who dies.
    Yes, but if you go out, purchase a gun, stalk somebody and kill them does it hold the same criminal weight then if you get in an argument with somebody and in the heat of the fight pick up a knife and stab them once and they die. What if you stab them multiple times?

    Yes, no matter which way you slice it, somebody is dead.
    However, there is still a difference between 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, and manslaughter.

    If an athlete dopes, I don't think he or she means to hurt others in the sport, but instead just to give themselves an edge.

  12. #287
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    So, did Trek know?
    I find it hard to believe they were totally in the dark. Unless closing your eyes count...

    michael
    A Dirtbag since 1969.
    A Knomer since 2007.

    Knolly Podium V.2
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    RM Slayer . . .

  13. #288
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    Ok, so we are back to throwing out insults.
    I don't agree with you no matter what you say so I am a fence post.
    I suppose I could say the same about you because no matter what I say you won't agree.

    Did I ever say nothing should be done? No


    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    To compare this to Madoff shows complete idiotic logic. How many of you are jobless now, lost your money, savings funds since LA is guilty? None.

    Okay so he came clean big deal? What effect does this have to anyone posting in here? What have you gained or lost that you simply can't function ?

    Wall Street is the heart of America, it can crush over 300 million people within seconds..LA =just another user that finally got busted with others, that's all.
    Exactly

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53119 View Post
    in case there is argument that my post was blasphemous..
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	oprah-funny.jpg 
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    Hey, it's the rent is too damn high guy! ^^^^^ What did he ever do to Lance?
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  15. #290
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    ....and now for something else......
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Lance Armstrong finally to come clean?-rats.png  


  16. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Ok, so we are back to throwing out insults.
    I don't agree with you no matter what you say so I am a fence post.
    I suppose I could say the same about you because no matter what I say you won't agree.

    Did I ever say nothing should be done? No
    It's not an insult, Kjlued ... It's a follow-up to my statement that you would argue with a fence post, just to argue.
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes, but
    IMO, that's all you are doing in this thread ... Arguing with pretty much everyone, just to argue.

    You agree with someone, then backtrack with verbage.
    Find a fence post

  17. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    ....and now for something else......
    A statement of a difference in character.

  18. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    A statement of a difference in character.
    The difference is character doesn't really exist IMO, but if so it just shows they are less honorable for trying to mitigate their own losses by damaging someone else. Doesn't that sound familiar? Like character assassination that a certain fellow did when accused of cheating? They were all birds of a feather.

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    The difference is character doesn't really exist IMO, but if so it just shows they are less honorable for trying to mitigate their own losses by damaging someone else. Doesn't that sound familiar? Like character assassination that a certain fellow did when accused of cheating? They were all birds of a feather.

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    A statement of a difference in character.
    I was going for levity, because I think this here thread needs some-uh-dat. Next time I'm gonna add one-o-them smiley face thingamabobs, yessir I am. Avoid the confusion don't ya see!

  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    To compare this to Madoff shows complete idiotic logic. How many of you are jobless now, lost your money, savings funds since LA is guilty? None.

    Okay so he came clean big deal? What effect does this have to anyone posting in here? What have you gained or lost that you simply can't function ?

    Wall Street is the heart of America, it can crush over 300 million people within seconds..LA =just another user that finally got busted with others, that's all.
    I would venture there are a few bike riders who did not choose to dope on Postal who lost their bids at a professional cycling career and subsequently a job.

    Johan Bruyneel is jobless also.

  22. #297
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    Everybody Lance beat was also on the juice , and anybody who wasn't didn't have a job in the Pro Peleton. Maybe things will get cleaned up, but I doubt it as detection science always seems to be lagging behind cheating science. Perhaps Lemond was on to something about testing Vo2 as it is supposed to be constant unless your juiced?

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by aedubber View Post
    What effect does this have to anyone posting in here?
    If anything, the main effect on mtbr has been positive since its allowed everyone to get on their moral high horses and feel great about their own erudite ethical standards.
    definite malingerer

  24. #299
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    We the people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by bt2S88 View Post
    So, what did WE learn from all of this?
    Along the lines of what Blueliner said........I learned that if LA had spoken first he could have outed the entire freakin peloton, and kept his Tour victories. So he who rats last is the only true scum? What a load of dung!

    But wait, I was going for levity, so....

  25. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxotty View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    A statement of a difference in character.
    The difference is character doesn't really exist IMO, but if so it just shows they are less honorable for trying to mitigate their own losses by damaging someone else. Doesn't that sound familiar? Like character assassination that a certain fellow did when accused of cheating? They were all birds of a feather.
    I'm not saying one is more right than the other.

    Perhaps,
    Degrees of separation is a better term ?

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