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  1. #1
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    I don't get this trend

    Seems lots of the "cool" riders these days are flicking the rear tire in turns to dig up and throw dirt off the trail. Does it look cool? Maybe a bit, but it also digs up the trails a lot.

    Here in the PNW, it's probably not a problem, but as this cool trick spreads to all the kids who wanna be as cool as the video rider stars, it'll spread to places where digging up the trails is as bad as skidding... or at least as bad as skidding used to be. Yet while we still shame those who skid ("skidiots") for tearing up the trails, we applaud the digging in and flicking dirt off the trails in turns and don't think it's bad form for tearing up the trails.

    Is there a difference between the two? Is the digging and flicking less damaging to the trails than skidding?

  2. #2
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    As far as I can tell this "flick" is basically a skid with a little wiggle thrown in. Yes, it'll mess up the trails. Yes, it's bad form because of this.

    Trends don't always make sense and they're not always a positive thing.

  3. #3
    No good in rock gardens..
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    Action camera / pose driven I suspect.
    Less isn't MOAR

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Seems lots of the "cool" riders these days are flicking the rear tire in turns to dig up and throw dirt off the trail. Does it look cool? Maybe a bit, but it also digs up the trails a lot.

    Here in the PNW, it's probably not a problem, but as this cool trick spreads to all the kids who wanna be as cool as the video rider stars, it'll spread to places where digging up the trails is as bad as skidding... or at least as bad as skidding used to be. Yet while we still shame those who skid ("skidiots") for tearing up the trails, we applaud the digging in and flicking dirt off the trails in turns and don't think it's bad form for tearing up the trails.

    Is there a difference between the two? Is the digging and flicking less damaging to the trails than skidding?
    I've noticed it too. Looks cool in the vids but doubt it's less damaging...Maybe it creates fewer brake bumps but more displaced dirt equals a low-spot to hold moisture.
    Looks a little harder on your rear wheel too.
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  5. #5
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    When done by a skilled rider, I think it's similar to how BMX riders without brakes check their speed, or possibly the effect of a pronounced counter-steer. Then lesser skilled people try to recreate the effect by mid-using brakes to break the wheel loose. People don't seem to get the difference between a drift and a skid I guess.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    When done by a skilled rider, I think it's similar to how BMX riders without brakes check their speed, or possibly the effect of a pronounced counter-steer. Then lesser skilled people try to recreate the effect by mid-using brakes to break the wheel loose. People don't seem to get the difference between a drift and a skid I guess.
    You bring up another question... isn't a drift nothing more than a fancy skid?

    And if so, isn't drifting no better for the trails than skidding, since it's basically the same thing: a tire dragging across the dirt, rather than rolling. OK, in a drift, the tire is rolling, but not in a 1:1 ratio to the ground the tire is covering, so still tearing up the trail to some degree.

  7. #7
    No good in rock gardens..
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    I think you also have to be dressed like an enduro-bro, to really pull it off.
    Less isn't MOAR

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    People don't seem to get the difference between a drift and a skid I guess.
    Drifting is a controlled skid. Still effs up the trail, so in this context it's no different.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    I think you also have to be dressed like an enduro-bro, to really pull it off.
    I think that's most things now.

  10. #10
    No good in rock gardens..
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonlarry View Post
    I think that's most things now.
    Damn.
    Less isn't MOAR

  11. #11
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    It is a problem in the PNW at least as much as anywhere else.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  12. #12
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    All the bros there have to do it to be cool. These are the same people who remove obstacles from the trail because it ruins their strava time.


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  13. #13
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    This so called trend has been going on for 7everal years. It's all hyped up for video and advertisement reasons. Those that do it on a regular basis in real life riding are twats, twats? Did he just call them twats? Yes he did. Don't worry it's not something that happens in most riders everyday riding. It's just for pushing products to make our sport cooler to the outsiders and the clueless in out sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  14. #14
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    So over done. Prolly why I can barely make it through any mtn bike vids anymore.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    So over done. Prolly why I can barely make it through any mtn bike vids anymore.
    Yep, and I can only handle so much of a ride video with music as the background [and I Love music] and over editing. What ever happened to raw footage with natural sounds of the trail? To me it gives a more realistic feel to actually going on the ride as you view it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    I think you also have to be dressed like an enduro-bro, to really pull it off.
    Enduro-bro with go-bro helmet cam. Tele tubbies unite!!!

  17. #17
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    Playing in the dirt, even going all the way back to my childhood, has always been something that was done with reckless abandon. To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes. I generally don't do those things but I do skid once in awhile, more out of necessity or wanting to get my bike into a position that I couldn't attain otherwise but at the end of the day anyone that tells me the right or wrong way to play in the dirt will likely be told to STFU and turn in their man card at the door. It's dirt for shit sake. You're not going to break it.

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  18. #18
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    On machine built "flow" trails I drag knob as much as possible because F machine built "flow" trails hahaha.
    Last edited by HacksawReynolds; 01-10-2018 at 07:53 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    Playing in the dirt, even going all the way back to my childhood, has always been something that was done with reckless abandon. To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes. I generally don't do those things but I do skid once in awhile, more out of necessity or wanting to get my bike into a position that I couldn't attain otherwise but at the end of the day anyone that tells me the right or wrong way to play in the dirt will likely be told to STFU and turn in their man card at the door. It's dirt for shit sake. You're not going to break it.
    Do a day's work on a trail and come back when you've actually earned a man card.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Do a day's work on a trail and come back when you've actually earned a man card.
    A day's work on the trail is earning your man card? You've led sheltered life.

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  21. #21
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    Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about?
    I think it's the latter. Apparently when you burn around in the dirt on a machine with knobby tires you must be careful to not leave marks or grooves in the dirt. Dirt has feelings too. Leaving tire tracks in it is no different then failing to rake a sand trap on a golf course and we all know the results of that... Some old guy with a bad comb-over will chase us down and give us the finger wave

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    A day's work on the trail is earning your man card? You've led sheltered life.

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    #de-weaponized.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes.
    Yeah bro, I do that after I fall off my MTB.

    Sit there, cry, and play with the dirt.
    Less isn't MOAR

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    I think it's the latter. Apparently when you burn around in the dirt on a machine with knobby tires you must be careful to not leave marks or grooves in the dirt. Dirt has feelings too. Leaving tire tracks in it is no different then failing to rake a sand trap on a golf course and we all know the results of that... Some old guy with a bad comb-over will chase us down and give us the finger wave
    Dumbass attitudes like this is exactly why we get shut out of certain areas. Go back and finish high school and then read up on what actually goes into building and maintaining a trail. Until then, please refrain from making idiotic statements in an attempt to sound cool. #endurobro

  26. #26
    No good in rock gardens..
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    Less isn't MOAR

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.
    I've been mountain biking for over 30 years and only seen it once. I saw John Tomac do it at Snow Summit in 1994 at the Big Bear Norba National.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I've been mountain biking for over 30 years and only seen it once. I saw John Tomac do it at Snow Summit in 1994 at the Big Bear Norba National.
    I was at that race. Couldn't tell you one way or another if he did that. Getting old sucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    You bring up another question... isn't a drift nothing more than a fancy skid?

    And if so, isn't drifting no better for the trails than skidding, since it's basically the same thing: a tire dragging across the dirt, rather than rolling. OK, in a drift, the tire is rolling, but not in a 1:1 ratio to the ground the tire is covering, so still tearing up the trail to some degree.
    Not saying anything about trail wear, just remarking on the move itself. It's a totally different thing than a skid, actually takes quite a bit of skill to pull off, as you don't use any brake. From what I've seen from some guys I ride with, most often on trails they / I have helped build and maintain, it can be a really fast way to get around certain corners.

    I think you're just a bunch of old style-less bastards like myself.
    If your trails are built well, they should likely handle a a little sliding around here and there. Not that I think it's something that everybody should try to do at every turn or anything, but seriously, you gotta break 'em loose here and there.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    Playing in the dirt, even going all the way back to my childhood, has always been something that was done with reckless abandon. To this day I still like to just sit in the dirt and play with it sometimes. I generally don't do those things but I do skid once in awhile, more out of necessity or wanting to get my bike into a position that I couldn't attain otherwise but at the end of the day anyone that tells me the right or wrong way to play in the dirt will likely be told to STFU and turn in their man card at the door. It's dirt for shit sake. You're not going to break it.

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    Usually the first one that tells everyone else to either get or to turn in a man card is the one pining for one.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.
    Yes, I had the opportunity to do lots of youth rides last summer and all the teens were trying to get the move down in pretty much every turn they could. And I've seen adults doing it to on some of our trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I think you're just a bunch of old style-less bastards like myself.
    I'm absolutely an old style-less bastard with only a modicum of ability. Doesn't mean I still can't look at it and wonder why tearing up the trail one way is frowned upon and another, celebrated.

  31. #31
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    I thought skidding always involves locking up a wheel whereas drifting is sliding a bit through a corner with no breaking. The only way to avoid drifting through corners around here is to go slow so I'll be continuing to drift through some of them. I see no measurable trail damage.

    Flicking the rear tire in a corner is neither a drift or a skid IMO.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Dumbass attitudes like this is exactly why we get shut out of certain areas. Go back and finish high school and then read up on what actually goes into building and maintaining a trail. Until then, please refrain from making idiotic statements in an attempt to sound cool. #endurobro
    You're a brainless little sissy. show me one trail that got shut down because somebody made a skid marks on it you freaking dumbass. You act like we're talking about tearing them up with a damn bobcat. Go bow up against someone else Tinkerbell.

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Usually the first one that tells everyone else to either get or to turn in a man card is the one pining for one.



    Yes, I had the opportunity to do lots of youth rides last summer and all the teens were trying to get the move down in pretty much every turn they could. And I've seen adults doing it to on some of our trails.



    I'm absolutely an old style-less bastard with only a modicum of ability. Doesn't mean I still can't look at it and wonder why tearing up the trail one way is frowned upon and another, celebrated.
    I'm not the one crying like a little girl because somebody got dirt on my dirt

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    I'm not the one crying like a little girl because somebody got dirt on my dirt

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    Then what are you crying about?

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    You guys must really freak out when it rains. I'll bet some of you actually stand out there and yell at the clouds for eroding the dirt

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    You bring up another question... isn't a drift nothing more than a fancy skid?

    And if so, isn't drifting no better for the trails than skidding, since it's basically the same thing: a tire dragging across the dirt, rather than rolling. OK, in a drift, the tire is rolling, but not in a 1:1 ratio to the ground the tire is covering, so still tearing up the trail to some degree.
    Nah, they're different. A skid will be gouging the trail, but a drift is just skittering sideways over the loose surface, wheels still rolling 1:1 to the ground. You'd have to really pu55yfoot* round a loose corner to avoid drifting.

    That rear wheel snatch-and-flick move is a technique to get around a tight corner; acceptable in some races maybe, but rightly frowned upon when performed on groomed trails. I don't ride groomed trails but I still don't use this move; bit too hooligan. I prefer the Scandanavian flick, endo turn, or (more usually) biasing my weight for oversteer.

    There is one circumstance where I'll employ the rear wheel snatch-and-flick, and that's to ward off aggressive dogs. I'll have hounds chase me on the trail all the time: most are friendly and just want to play so with these I'll stop, circle round and bring them back to their owners, but every now and then I'll get a dog that's snapping at my bike and getting a bit close. These dogs get a puff of dust to the face - does no harm and works a treat. If you think I'm being harsh, it's for the benefit of the dog, not me, as I'm not so much worried about being bitten as I am concerned that the dog will stick its snout through my spokes. This happened to a friend of mine once - he was cycling down a country lane when a farm dog came running after him and lunged at his front wheel, sticking its snout through the spokes. The rotation brought the dog's snout to the fork leg, whereupon "the black bit of the dog's nose flew off" and the front end of the bike crumpled, sending its rider OTB and into a very nasty faceplant. I would not like to be the mechanism whereby a dog loses its nose.

    * Stupid auto-censor! This word refers to the delicate and deliberate nature of a cat's walk.
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  37. #37
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    I have to skid/drift, otherwise the sheer force of my cornering prowess will set the Earth off its rotational axis. Just doing my part to mitigate global warming. You're welcome.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    Nah, they're different. A skid will be gouging the trail, but a drift is just skittering sideways over the loose surface, wheels still rolling 1:1 to the ground.
    I like how that doesn't even agree with itself...
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    As far as I can tell this "flick" is basically a skid with a little wiggle thrown in. Yes, it'll mess up the trails. Yes, it's bad form because of this.

    Trends don't always make sense and they're not always a positive thing.
    This, think of all the people who have their keys on lanyards.....WTF is that about. Looks dumb having 2 feet of lanyard hanging from your pocket it also dangles I would think when your keys are in the car....

  40. #40
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    skid-

    I don't get this trend-dscn0036.jpg

    drift-

    Attached Images Attached Images
    I brake for stinkbugs

  41. #41
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    Never really paid attention to this issue till I watched some Youtube videos last night and noticed that, yes indeed, they do it every turn. Why? It may look cool once in a blue moon, but every corner is a bit absurd and just damages the trail.

    On the other side of the video watching, and no these guys weren't flicking every turn, I watched a video on the trails around Rotorua in New Zealand. OMG did I miss out! I was there last year twice and rode Woodhill Park and hiked, but never hit the trails in the area. BIG mistake from the looks of it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    that was hilarious
    1st few minutes I was noticing his weak skills (because they look so familiar) then started wondering if it was a send-up and not another escaped wild ego.
    Some people are so creative, new spin on what's become mundane.
    Back to the thread, Mr. wepon has a point about dirt, but he is failing to communicate how much it sucks to tear up trail. Yes we ride it (use it) but we all need to care for it as well.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    You guys must really freak out when it rains. I'll bet some of you actually stand out there and yell at the clouds for eroding the dirt

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    Simpsons' episode.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I've been mountain biking for over 30 years and only seen it once. I saw John Tomac do it at Snow Summit in 1994 at the Big Bear Norba National.
    Ah...the heyday of pro xc racing!
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    I think you all are referring to what they call a “cutty”

    They had a “how to” video on on it on pinkbike back in mid December:



    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to...airclough.html
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    My father told me until I started paying for the tires that I was never to skid, ever.

    Now I skid every time, everywhere, whenever I want and no one can stop me!
    Bicycles don't have motors.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    Blah blah blah - insult insult. Blah blah idiotic statement. Blah blah.
    I don't have time for you troll boy. #endurobrotroll

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    That’s about 8 Bitcoin worth of speeding violations right there

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    Where I live, there are a lot of very good riders and the dirt is also very slippery. Mid-summer if you are riding with any kind of pace you are sideways a lot.

    Now I look after the trail maintenance for one of the main riding areas and honestly IMHO people drifting through turns does zero damage to the trail. Actually quite the opposite, over time flat turns that people drift through develop a natural berm to them.

    I think the whole "Ride don't slide" was a statement that was used to appease hikers and environmentalist in the early days of mountain biking. Those of us who live in communities where trails made, maintained and primarily used by mountain bikers don't have to worry about appeasing hikers.

    And in all fairness even if it does wear trails that is why we have work parties. And at least in my neck of the woods you can always count on the guys/girls who ride the most and the hardest to be their for work parties.
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Drifting creates berms on trails that are on flat open land. But it also erodes trails that are cliff side. On trails with plenty of flat space along side of the trail drifting builds berms which enhances the trail in some cases but not always. Which brings to mind a slippery slope this discussion is.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    I don't have time for you troll boy. #endurobrotroll
    Actually he's not even an edurobro. He's a beginner who doesn't understand the larger picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Drifting creates berms on trails that are on flat open land. But it also erodes trails that are cliff side.

    I don't think too many people are drifting next to cliffs, that population keeps itself small by nature.
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    Like so many things mtb, it depends on your trails. Drifting across a loose over hard surface is to be expected. Purposely digging into the trail surface and throwing dirt off creating a rut because "it's cool" is purposely damaging the trail; not cool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't think too many people are drifting next to cliffs, that population keeps itself small by nature.
    LOL
    As you know the more skilled you get the temptation is there. I've done it before, more so in downhill skiing, I always enjoyed it.
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    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?

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    Drifting is when you are sliding from losing traction, but without the use of excessive (usually no) brakes. Think of it like if you are in a car going around a corner too fast and the rear end starts to slide. You aren't slamming on the brakes to make it slide, you are drifting. You control the drift with lean over and brake pressure. In a car you control it with the throttle (though you may initiate it with the brake)

    Skidding is slamming on the brakes to lock up the wheel. You might do it to initiate a drift, but not typically.

    I will skid into corners, or drift through them, depending on the terrain and speed. If I am going down a fast, loose trail, getting the rear end stepped out into a corner and squaring it off might be the faster way through then trying to control the roll through. Usually if there is a berm, it becomes a drift as I release the rear brake and the rear tire starts to spin while the bike is leaned over and sideways.

    I don't use just one technique to corner. There are multiple ways through, I try to use the one I feel will be best suited for the corner I'm in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?
    Nothing. You're riding actual trails, not highways through the woods.

    Some of the "flow trails" I've seen are wide enough to drive a car down. They look suspiciously like old Forest Service roads, but were apparently specifically built to ride bikes on. Crazy, eh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?
    Believe it or not, I saw a guy bang out a 360 drift on a rigid fatbike 2 years ago at the Wicked Ride, on some good chunk in front of a ton of people conga-lining at a choke point, then go straight into some fairly obscene dance moves. It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen someone pull off on an XC ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weaponized View Post
    I'm not the one crying like a little girl because somebody got dirt on my dirt
    In fact, you're the only one in this thread crying. Perhaps it's because the rest of us simply don't take you as seriously as you take yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grassington View Post
    Nah, they're different. A skid will be gouging the trail, but a drift is just skittering sideways over the loose surface, wheels still rolling 1:1 to the ground. You'd have to really pu55yfoot* round a loose corner to avoid drifting.
    OK, but if the wheel is skittering along sideways, isn't it still putting a gouge in the trail? And since it's going sideways, a bigger gouge, at that? The wheel isn't rolling 1:1 to the ground in a drift. At least not one inch of revolution to one inch of forward travel. It is sliding, so can't be 1:1.

    Sure, I agree that on loose corners, there will be inevitable - if not intentional - drift. But on trails with good traction? And that Cutty move, whether drifting or something else entirely is the topic, not specifically drifting, or are we putting that move in with drifting?

    Quote Originally Posted by cookieMonster View Post
    I have to skid/drift, otherwise the sheer force of my cornering prowess will set the Earth off its rotational axis. Just doing my part to mitigate global warming. You're welcome.
    First definitive answer of the thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    skid-

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    drift-
    OK, if we're going to put into picture perspective...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails I don't get this trend-drift-v-skid.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Nothing. You're riding actual trails, not highways through the woods.

    Some of the "flow trails" I've seen are wide enough to drive a car down. They look suspiciously like old Forest Service roads, but were apparently specifically built to ride bikes on. Crazy, eh?
    So crazy. And the time, money, and impact going into building these flow roads is even more crazy. Not MTB trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    skid-

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    Where did you find a picture of weapon boy?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    drift-

    That's a road or maybe a DH park? Drift/skid all you want there. Just take note of all the dirt it's throwing up. Some trails can handle it. Where I live we have places that water will pool if the level of the trail is lower than the ground and it doesn't take much. Typically, people end up having to bring in dirt to level it back out. This "flick"/drift/mini-skid would only exacerbate the problem.

    As DJ mentioned, some trails can handle it better than others but in most instances eventually it's going to require work to get it back in shape.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Where I live, there are a lot of very good riders and the dirt is also very slippery. Mid-summer if you are riding with any kind of pace you are sideways a lot.

    Now I look after the trail maintenance for one of the main riding areas and honestly IMHO people drifting through turns does zero damage to the trail. Actually quite the opposite, over time flat turns that people drift through develop a natural berm to them.

    I think the whole "Ride don't slide" was a statement that was used to appease hikers and environmentalist in the early days of mountain biking. Those of us who live in communities where trails made, maintained and primarily used by mountain bikers don't have to worry about appeasing hikers.

    And in all fairness even if it does wear trails that is why we have work parties. And at least in my neck of the woods you can always count on the guys/girls who ride the most and the hardest to be their for work parties.
    I don't see this as a problem on our corners either, and we have a lot. People who can't control the brakes, while they pee in their chamois on the steep sections do real damage though.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    That's a road or maybe a DH park?

    It's a road, I just posted it because the football helmet cracked me up.

    I don't go gonzo but on the loose stuff we have around here you're either drifting a little or throttling back. I love the feeling of pulling off a nice controlled (brakeless) drift at speed, all part of the fun and I don't notice any trail damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    So crazy. And the time, money, and impact going into building these flow roads is even more crazy. Not MTB trails.
    You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
    Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    It's a road, I just posted it because the football helmet cracked me up.

    I don't go gonzo but on the loose stuff we have around here you're either drifting a little or throttling back. I love the feeling of pulling off a nice controlled (brakeless) drift at speed, all part of the fun and I don't notice any trail damage.
    I believe you and I understand the difference in what causes real measurable damage and what's no biggie, but the inexperienced and undereducated might not. I've managed a 2 wheel drift in loose over hard stuff a few times (without dying) and the trail was no worse for wear. And it was really fun to boot!

    I really think we're on the same page with this, but here's an example to illustrate my perspective. There's actually this one video that comes to mind where one rider was doing the "skid" manoever around turn after turn and throwing loose soil and rocks each time. So much so that when they stopped, his rear tire/wheel was covered in the stuff. If a teenager just starting out saw that and thought it was cool (never happens, I know) and proceeded to pass it on to his fellow teen riders...well, you see where I'm going. That's the real concern and that's the thread title. If it continues to be popularized or portrayed as acceptable, real damage could be done. Then there are the hikers and horse riders - this is just more ammo for their trail access arsenal.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?
    Go faster and send it harder. GoPro on, of course.

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    ^^^^^ Hmmm, faster is always better. I also have some giant house sized granite and slab. How's the drifting on that? Consistent tire release? But faster, got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ^^^^^ Hmmm, faster is always better. I also have some giant house sized granite and slab. How's the drifting on that? Consistent tire release? But faster, got it.
    I'd suggest dropping tire pressure to about 2 psi. It'll give you better tip-in performance.

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    Riding bikes, period, is gona cut up the ground. Without the bikes riding the same lines over and over, most trails would not be trails so who decides what level of erosion is correct and acceptable? It is totally subjective.

    Even with maintenance, both trail-center trails and natural trails change constantly. I've seen trails go from ok to impassable within a few years either from vegetation growth or natural erosion. You might not like it but welcome to the real world.

    Is a trail damaged by skidding? I think it depends on how you define damage. Personally I wouldn't say the trail is damaged, it's just different.

    There is a short free-ride decent we ride that is not really maintained at all any more and is pretty rough in bits. I like it as it's more challenging and fun. It only take a few minutes to do it but it's hard work and tricky. So is that trail damaged or better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I keep trying to drift in chunky baby head corners, doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?
    Are you dressing like an enduro-bro?

    If not, that could be the problem.
    Less isn't MOAR

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post

    That's a road or maybe a DH park?
    It looks an awful lot like a vintage Marin Repack Downhill image (dirt road).

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
    Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.

    Hey, that comment should have been directed at my post on this thread. I'm behind the times again. Dang.

  73. #73
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    for me, drifting was always a result of taking a poor line, or mis judging the line and having to bail the turn...so I tried to get drift out of my riding style...I never really thought of the "trail damage" side of it because it happened so rarely around my circle of friends...and we ride on non-groomed single track through terrain that is already mostly rocks, roots and chatter...< -and because of this, skidding is sometimes just part of the ride. you hit a patch of gravel hidden by a pile of leaves, or bounce off of a bunch of half buried baby-heads, and you are skidding no matter what
    "It's about having pointless fun in the woods...." - Walt
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
    Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.

    Pffft! He doesn't limit himself to anything and does it all better than anyone including you... on a rigid hardtail... like real men do it. At least that's how he tells it in just about every post.

  75. #75
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    I hear there's a lot of drifting, in Tokyo.

    IIRC Toto had a song about it, in the 80's.

    "I bless the drifts down in Tokyo...." etc.
    Less isn't MOAR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Riding bikes, period, is gona cut up the ground. Without the bikes riding the same lines over and over, most trails would not be trails so who decides what level of erosion is correct and acceptable? It is totally subjective.

    Even with maintenance, both trail-center trails and natural trails change constantly. I've seen trails go from ok to impassable within a few years either from vegetation growth or natural erosion. You might not like it but welcome to the real world.

    Is a trail damaged by skidding? I think it depends on how you define damage. Personally I wouldn't say the trail is damaged, it's just different.

    There is a short free-ride decent we ride that is not really maintained at all any more and is pretty rough in bits. I like it as it's more challenging and fun. It only take a few minutes to do it but it's hard work and tricky. So is that trail damaged or better?
    Definitely a valid argument. I'd say damage is when the trail is "changed" beyond its intended use requiring intervention. Of course that'll vary location to location.

    In your example of the rough, challenging section if the deterioration was brought on by erosion or other natural processes then it would have happened anyway. Proper trail building practices isn't really the topic here, no? The OP was pretty specific. I'd still say that specific trail is better in that case, too (at least for now). Then again I think we had a thread about sanitizing trails already...

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
    Hey, that comment should have been directed at my post on this thread. I'm behind the times again. Dang.
    There's nothing wrong with having a favorite style of riding and there's no 'requirement' to ever do anything different. But everyone should appreciate that there are a lot of different aspects to the sport. I'd also recommend dabbling in at least a few, or preferably, a bunch.

    Though the vast majority of my riding has always been XC/trail, and I've got a soft spot for narrow, tight and twisty N.E. singletrack, I've mess with BMX bikes pretty regularly now and even built a pumptrack for my town, and from 2000-2008 or so, managed to put in over 200 lift served days. Late 90s were a combination of taking my car off the road for a few years and just pedaling everywhere, endless miles of XC exploration, bikepacking trip and breaking bikes like it was going out of style. Now I've got a 13 y/o kid who kills it on anything with wheels, but really loves the DH flow trails. Lots of guys I ride trails with these days also are regular DHers; one of the best and strongest XC riders not only has commuted over 100,000 miles, but is also the regional Masters enduro champ. There's nothing wrong with different styles of riding at all. Though sometimes it's hard not to make fun of fatbikers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You need to expend the old horizons a little bit man.
    Or at least come to terms with the fact that just because you limit yourself to one tiny little niche style of riding, that doesn't mean your take on biking defines it. Get a little variety in your life; trust me, there's a lot of ways to have fun on an MTB.

    Ha you know very little of how I've spent time on a MTB over the last 30 years there sparky.

    I do not care for machine built brown sidewalk dirt roads. That's all I was saying here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Ha you know very little of how I've spent time on a MTB over the last 30 years there sparky.

    I do not care for machine built brown sidewalk dirt roads. That's all I was saying here.
    Actually, you said they were "not MTB trails".
    Though they may not be to your taste, I'd argue that they are, in fact, undeniably MTB trails.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Have any of you ever actually seen someone do this in real life or are you bored and just need something to get your panties in a bunch about? The obsession with other people who don't ride the right bikes the right way or wear the right clothes is pathetic.
    I have never seen this in real life. Other riders are always behind me. How am I supposed to know what they're doing?

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Yep, and I can only handle so much of a ride video with music as the background [and I Love music] and over editing. What ever happened to raw footage with natural sounds of the trail? To me it gives a more realistic feel to actually going on the ride as you view it.
    dirtjunkie, you get nothing but enthusiastic agreement from me on the music thing.

    remember what i my sig used to be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Actually, you said they were "not MTB trails".
    Though they may not be to your taste, I'd argue that they are, in fact, undeniably MTB trails.
    Well if they are undeniably MTB trails then so is the mountain road that I was riding laps up Monday and today. only difference is one is dirt and one is paved, but the dirt may as well be paved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Actually, you said they were "not MTB trails".
    Though they may not be to your taste, I'd argue that they are, in fact, undeniably MTB trails.
    Out of curiosity:

    At what point is a fire road a trail?

    And at what point is a trail a road?

    I mean, people like to lampoon double track. What about a smooth path 10ft wide? If I can drive a car down it, is it a trail or a road?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    dirtjunkie, you get nothing but enthusiastic agreement from me on the music thing.

    remember what i my sig used to be?
    Hmmm. . I can't say I recall what your sig line was. But it is good to hear someone agrees with my video music statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Definitely a valid argument. I'd say damage is when the trail is "changed" beyond its intended use requiring intervention.

    In your example of the rough, challenging section if the deterioration was brought on by erosion or other natural processes then it would have happened anyway.
    My point is that by creating a trail, you are almost by definition damaging the terrain. The ground is no longer in its natural state and some people could, quite justifiably, argue that mountain bike trails of any kind damage the environment.

    The people who build mountain bike trails see things differently. In their view the trail is a reasonable use of the land and provides people with access and enjoyment. I agree.

    But the land is not theirs. It was there before they were born, it'll still be there when they are buried in it. Who are they to decide that they can now define exactly what the ground should look like and tell people they can only enjoy it in a certain way? The whole point of a mountain bike trail is that people can have fun riding bikes on it. It serves no other purpose. If skidding around is what some riders get a thrill out of what is to say that they are wrong?

    Years ago one of the guys who rode with us suggested forming a club. He wanted to come up with a name, buy shirts etc. I told him that if he wanted to buy a shirt then go for it but count me out. Once you have a name and are a club, then you have meetings, then you get a comity and then you get rules. Some people like being on comities and like rules, often the people you might least want in that position, but I'm not one of them. Rules often make the rule makers happy and a larger number of people unhappy. You need some rules obviously but it's where you draw the line. If riders are posing a hazard to other people or heading out with spades to dig up the ground then ok, that's not good but telling people they can only ride in a certain way? Come on. Isn't that fairly contrary to the whole spirit of mountain biking?

  86. #86
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    Skilless here, yea i can skid but prefer not to if at all possible, drift has only occurred a few times when i've overcooked a corner with a moment of "oh shit" damn that hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Hmmm. . I can't say I recall what your sig line was. But it is good to hear someone agrees with my video music statement.
    I agree too. Hearing the tires scratching dirt is way better than hearing someone else’s choice of musical score. For example, Semenuk’s videos usually have “natural” sounds:

    https://youtu.be/p7o77ZMinRY

    https://youtu.be/1BP2RC9zCxo


    I’ll make an exception for unReal though. That one is totally badass, music and all:

    https://youtu.be/5ud5T5I4XcA

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    damn mountain bikers complain a lot. You guys must suck to ride with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    damn mountain bikers complain a lot. You guys must suck to ride with.
    Maybe. I definitely suck to watch tv with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    Are you dressing like an enduro-bro?

    If not, that could be the problem.
    Everything except the man bro bra, dang.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    damn mountain bikers complain a lot. You guys must suck to ride with.
    if you rode with us, just think you too would suck by association.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Maybe. I definitely suck to watch tv with.
    i don't do much tv so i'm safe in this arena, however behind the wheel of a vehicle i would suck to ride with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Well if they are undeniably MTB trails then so is the mountain road that I was riding laps up Monday and today. only difference is one is dirt and one is paved, but the dirt may as well be paved.
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    For some folks, that's their thing.
    Seems pretty similar to where it all started to me.

    Mountain biking or not mountain biking?
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    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    ^no chamois

    also note that 1 finger braking didn't begin with hydraulic discs
    I brake for stinkbugs

  94. #94
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    Love those pics.

    But it's worth pointing out that those are dirt roads, not trails. Do whatever the hell you want on dirt roads, please don't tear up trails just cuz you saw ____ _____ do it on some closed track that was built just for the video.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  95. #95
    the half breed devil
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Hmmm. . I can't say I recall what your sig line was. But it is good to hear someone agrees with my video music statement.
    my sig used to be a link to my podcast. i was a DJ at KUSF 90.3 FM in san francisco beginning in 1993 and became music director of san francisco community radio (the phoenix from the ashes of KUSF) in mid 2011.

    i gave up all this at the beginning of 2017 due to burnout.

    i can provide you all with lots of violent music to dig up trails by if you're into that kind of thing...

  96. #96
    Rides all the bikes!
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    Anyone who sits there and judges others on what is or is not "real" mountain biking has a worthless opinion.

    If you call your bike a mountain bike and you ride it, it's mountain biking. The details are irrelevant, ride your own ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    my sig used to be a link to my podcast. i was a DJ at KUSF 90.3 FM in san francisco beginning in 1993 and became music director of san francisco community radio (the phoenix from the ashes of KUSF) in mid 2011.
    I'm trying to remember what I listened to before I started listening to when I was up there, besides CD's. I was stationed in Alameda 2000-2006.

  97. #97
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    What I don't like are the chatter marks that show up on descents, just before steep, sharp turns. I think most of these are caused by inexperienced riders who just don't know how to modulate their braking and end up locking up.

  98. #98
    Self Appointed Judge&Jury
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    my sig used to be a link to my podcast. i was a DJ at KUSF 90.3 FM in san francisco beginning in 1993 and became music director of san francisco community radio (the phoenix from the ashes of KUSF) in mid 2011.

    i gave up all this at the beginning of 2017 due to burnout.

    i can provide you all with lots of violent music to dig up trails by if you're into that kind of thing...
    I guess I never clicked on your link. I do remember clicking on a photography blog of yours in your sig line, I see it's still there. Some good photography in there.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Love those pics.

    But it's worth pointing out that those are dirt roads, not trails. Do whatever the hell you want on dirt roads, please don't tear up trails just cuz you saw ____ _____ do it on some closed track that was built just for the video.
    My point in that post was not about skidding/sliding/drifting, it was about people narrowly defining what mountain biking is based on nothing but their personal preferences, then proclaiming that any riding that happens outside of those preferences isn't even part of the sport.

    See Sidewalk's post for more detail.

    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My point in that post was not about skidding/sliding/drifting, it was about people narrowly defining what mountain biking is based on nothing but their personal preferences, then proclaiming that any riding that happens outside of those preferences isn't even part of the sport.

    See Sidewalk's post for more detail.

    Gotcha. And agreed.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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