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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    ^no chamois

    also note that 1 finger braking didn't begin with hydraulic discs
    Yeah it started back in the 1970's via me at 12 years old on my dirt bike. I invented that sh*t. Funny how things transitioned over into mountain biking.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  2. #102
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    This isn't a question with a simple answer.

    The "cutty" or "flick" is not inherently bad or good. It's a tool in the skills tool box that works in certain situations. For some rider's, like Sam Hill, it's a default turning style. Is it overused? Totally. Is it unnecessarily accentuated with the back brake. Absolutely.

    When is the cutty actually useful? When you're riding turns that are unbermed/tight/steep/soft (i.e. English loam), the cutty is often the fastest way around. Berming such a turn is slow and awkward. The hop/pivot of the cutty allows you to change direction faster and is also self braking. A good analogy is making a tight/steep turn on skis or a snowboard that's uncarvable -- you're going to slide or jump to get that quick angle change. A snow cutty.

    The problem is that the cuttie has become a fad turn. People cutty every damn turn whether it's the right technique or not because it "looks cool". People cutty and use too much rear brake just throw up more dirt. Even worse some people don't know how to cutty and are just locking up their rear brake to tire slide. These people give the cutty a bad name.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    My point is that by creating a trail, you are almost by definition damaging the terrain. The ground is no longer in its natural state and some people could, quite justifiably, argue that mountain bike trails of any kind damage the environment.

    The people who build mountain bike trails see things differently. In their view the trail is a reasonable use of the land and provides people with access and enjoyment. I agree.

    But the land is not theirs. It was there before they were born, it'll still be there when they are buried in it. Who are they to decide that they can now define exactly what the ground should look like and tell people they can only enjoy it in a certain way? The whole point of a mountain bike trail is that people can have fun riding bikes on it. It serves no other purpose. If skidding around is what some riders get a thrill out of what is to say that they are wrong?

    Years ago one of the guys who rode with us suggested forming a club. He wanted to come up with a name, buy shirts etc. I told him that if he wanted to buy a shirt then go for it but count me out. Once you have a name and are a club, then you have meetings, then you get a comity and then you get rules. Some people like being on comities and like rules, often the people you might least want in that position, but I'm not one of them. Rules often make the rule makers happy and a larger number of people unhappy. You need some rules obviously but it's where you draw the line. If riders are posing a hazard to other people or heading out with spades to dig up the ground then ok, that's not good but telling people they can only ride in a certain way? Come on. Isn't that fairly contrary to the whole spirit of mountain biking?
    Really? Going philosophical? So nobody's wrong in anything they do and take zero responsibilty for their own actions "because mountain biking". Except thare are others who use trails besides you and I (some don't even ride bikes, gasp). Oops, forgot about your fellow man and future generations in the argument.

    Count MrPig out of society in general, check!

  4. #104
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    I don't think it's *that* terrible when used sparingly, for a certain specific purpose.

    I'm getting really sick of the shreddits where some jack-hole in a FF helmet and goggles does it 100 times in a 90 second clip.

    Like, really, a$$hole? EVERY corner, huh?

    I saw one a week or so ago, that was the dude's default means of turning. I wanted to punch him in his stupid head.
    Donít modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    My point is that by creating a trail, you are almost by definition damaging the terrain. The ground is no longer in its natural state and some people could, quite justifiably, argue that mountain bike trails of any kind damage the environment.

    The people who build mountain bike trails see things differently. In their view the trail is a reasonable use of the land and provides people with access and enjoyment. I agree.

    But the land is not theirs. It was there before they were born, it'll still be there when they are buried in it. Who are they to decide that they can now define exactly what the ground should look like and tell people they can only enjoy it in a certain way? The whole point of a mountain bike trail is that people can have fun riding bikes on it. It serves no other purpose. If skidding around is what some riders get a thrill out of what is to say that they are wrong?

    Years ago one of the guys who rode with us suggested forming a club. He wanted to come up with a name, buy shirts etc. I told him that if he wanted to buy a shirt then go for it but count me out. Once you have a name and are a club, then you have meetings, then you get a comity and then you get rules. Some people like being on comities and like rules, often the people you might least want in that position, but I'm not one of them. Rules often make the rule makers happy and a larger number of people unhappy. You need some rules obviously but it's where you draw the line. If riders are posing a hazard to other people or heading out with spades to dig up the ground then ok, that's not good but telling people they can only ride in a certain way? Come on. Isn't that fairly contrary to the whole spirit of mountain biking?
    Iím a clubbie and this attitude is common and pisses me off. I see it purely as a rational people use to excuse not lending a hand.
    Our club builds trails for every sort of riding, runs events (up to and including EWS and UCI level), provides kids coaching, operates shuttles three times a week.
    People who slag us off are still happy to use our trails, attend events and use the shuttles....
    The simple fact is things have to reasonably organised - new trails have to be sanctioned and approved otherwise the land owners/local council gets upset and we lose access. Our club works hard to allow people to submit ideas and build their trails but we donít allow open slather - thatís how dumb, unsustainable and dodgy trails happen.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougr View Post
    What I don't like are the chatter marks that show up on descents, just before steep, sharp turns. I think most of these are caused by inexperienced riders who just don't know how to modulate their braking and end up locking up.
    Oh no no no no!!!!! It must be the trail builders fault for routing the trail incorrectly!!!!!! 

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    My point in that post was not about skidding/sliding/drifting, it was about people narrowly defining what mountain biking is based on nothing but their personal preferences, then proclaiming that any riding that happens outside of those preferences isn't even part of the sport.

    See Sidewalk's post for more detail.


    Again I'm just not into machine built "not MTB" flow trails and all that they nurture and represent. They bring a whole lotta ghey to the MTB table IMO. Hahaha.

    i promise to rut and brake jack the F out of any I happen to come across!

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Again I'm just not into machine built "not MTB" flow trails and all that they nurture and represent. They bring a whole lotta ghey to the MTB table IMO. Hahaha.
    Wow. That's a really impressive level of arrogance and ignorance on display right there.
    Congrats on that.

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  9. #109
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    Whatever.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Oh no no no no!!!!! It must be the trail builders fault for routing the trail incorrectly!!!!!! 
    That is actually an example of a maintenance need that can be anticipated and prevented by thoughtful alignment.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    That is actually an example of a maintenance need that can be anticipated and prevented by thoughtful alignment.
    Hahaha here we go again 😀

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Again I'm just not into machine built "not MTB" flow trails and all that they nurture and represent. They bring a whole lotta ghey to the MTB table IMO. Hahaha.
    Booooooo.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    That is actually an example of a maintenance need that can be anticipated and prevented by thoughtful alignment.
    I dunno - braking bumps are just something that happens, even on well built and maintained trails. Has a lot to do with the level of traffic IME.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Whatever.
    Whatever yourself.
    I have lots friends and family that enjoy riding in lots of different ways.
    Who the frig are you to pass judgement?
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Hahaha here we go again 
    Yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel about it, too. [sigh]

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I dunno - braking bumps are just something that happens, even on well built and maintained trails. Has a lot to do with the level of traffic IME.
    To a degree. But where they're really a recurring problem, there are predictable elements that cause people to squeeze the brakes. Brake bumps don't develop on wide open fast stretches, at least in my experience. You don't have to like dirt sidewalks to realize that some 'flow trail' concepts work equally well with narrow singletrack. For example, sight lines and using grade reversals as natural speed checks before turns. Our worst brake bumps are always where people are locking up above a turn or switchback. That's predictable.

  16. #116
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    Well, this has devolved far enough to include...

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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel about it, too. [sigh]



    To a degree. But where they're really a recurring problem, there are predictable elements that cause people to squeeze the brakes. Brake bumps don't develop on wide open fast stretches, at least in my experience. You don't have to like dirt sidewalks to realize that some 'flow trail' concepts work equally well with narrow singletrack. For example, sight lines and using grade reversals as natural speed checks before turns. Our worst brake bumps are always where people are locking up above a turn or switchback. That's predictable.
    Definitely, but depending on style of trail and level of traffic, they're just going to happen in certain places. Just something that has to be dealt with as part of routine maintenance sometimes. I usually only run into them at lift-served places personally.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Definitely, but depending on style of trail and level of traffic, they're just going to happen in certain places. Just something that has to be dealt with as part of routine maintenance sometimes. I usually only run into them at lift-served places personally.
    Trails here are generally longer than a mile, wide open, and not technical. You can ride fast. We have a number of trails with problem spots that develop big bumps within a few days. Theyíre all locations where youíre carrying a lot of speed and have to shut it down for a switchback, or a thereís a turn that scares beginner/intermediate riders into grabbing their brakes.

    These issues will never go away because people are really attached to the current alignments. Going forward, weíll make an effort to reduce them by design by using grade reversals where we can to cut speed prior to turns. Thatís a safety consideration on multi-use trails, too.

  19. #119
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    Going forward, designing trails that won't require much of any skills at all to ride. Nor require a rider to learn any.

  20. #120
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    egos and hidebound thinking are beginning to dominate this thread. it's not everyone, just a few.

    a very few.

    open your eyes, some of you, and try to get it through your skulls one man's reality might not be the same as yours due to geographic location.

  21. #121
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    Common courtesy......it's done with this idiot generation. Night all!

  22. #122
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    Sorry, one more comment.

    I build trails for the biking community. If somebody alters my trail by moving dirt from it and doesn't fix it, I put a shovel in their azz. Night all...again!

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawseman View Post
    Common courtesy......it's done with this idiot generation. Night all!
    Baby boomers?

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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    Baby boomers?

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    Hehe...."idiot generation" is a bad phrase. That can span decades, including mine (not baby boomer). It's the latest american "I don't give a shit about the other guy" mentality. This is cell-phone driver, prescription drug user, millennial.

  25. #125
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    Just another comradery thread in the world of mtbr. And for those that donít agree with my stance on this >
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Just another comradery thread in the world of mtbr. And for those that donít agree with my stance on this >
    one of my more acerbic co-workers in the trade-show rackets always told me to "smile and nod"...

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawseman View Post
    Sorry, one more comment.

    I build trails for the biking community. If somebody alters my trail by moving dirt from it and doesn't fix it, I put a shovel in their azz. Night all...again!
    You would have gone bonkers in the Preserving Moore thread.
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Just another comradery thread in the world of mtbr. And for those that donít agree with my stance on this >
    Agreed....I think. Based on your posts in this thread, I can't tell where you stand.

    Personally, my philosophy, you do whatever you want, just give it back to the next guy. It's not difficult.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    You would have gone bonkers in the Preserving Moore thread.
    Awww...missed it. I'm only in Passion, because I posted a dog pic recently.

    I do like building. Not as much as riding, of course. Riding is still my passion. I don't want to see abuse overtake compassion. Historically, it's got a bad outcome.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggis View Post
    Iím a clubbie and this attitude is common and pisses me off. I see it purely as a rational people use to excuse not lending a hand.
    In the UK there is a saying, maybe you have it in NZ too, 'My bat, my ball'. It stems from childhood days when the kid who owned the bat and ball felt that the dependency on him that others had gave him the right to dictate how they played the game.

    I understand that if you've built the trails you feel a strong connection to them but to stomp you're feet and try dictate how people ride them is being a spoiled child. Did you build the trails for others or because you wanted to ride them? Building for others is a generous thing to do but kindness is undone if you demand something in return, especially something unreasonable. Not allowing motorbikes on mountain bike trails is fair enough but when you start saying that kids can only ride their pedal bikes on the trail in a particular fashion you've crossed the line. Do you agree?

    That's what the thread is about but to answer your point, the 'club' my friend wanted to start was for road riding, very different from your situation, but if we talk about yours. It's always a minority of people who do the work. Why do you do it? Like I said, if you give trails to the community then you have to accept that they can use them as it suits them. If you give something away it's not yours anymore, you've gifted it, and you can't make demands on someone because you've given them something they didn't ask for. They might be happy and grateful to receive it but even that is not an obligation. If it pisses you off that some trail users don't want to come and dig with you then your motives are wrong. What would you say to the walkers and conservationists who are pissed off that you built the trails in the first place?

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    if you rode with us, just think you too would suck by association.
    It would never happen, I ride because it's fun.
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I understand that if you've built the trails you feel a strong connection to them but to stomp you're feet and try dictate how people ride them is being a spoiled child. Did you build the trails for others or because you wanted to ride them? Building for others is a generous thing to do but kindness is undone if you demand something in return, especially something unreasonable. Not allowing motorbikes on mountain bike trails is fair enough but when you start saying that kids can only ride their pedal bikes on the trail in a particular fashion you've crossed the line. Do you agree?

    That's what the thread is about but to answer your point, the 'club' my friend wanted to start was for road riding, very different from your situation, but if we talk about yours. It's always a minority of people who do the work. Why do you do it? Like I said, if you give trails to the community then you have to accept that they can use them as it suits them. If you give something away it's not yours anymore, you've gifted it, and you can't make demands on someone because you've given them something they didn't ask for. They might be happy and grateful to receive it but even that is not an obligation. If it pisses you off that some trail users don't want to come and dig with you then your motives are wrong. What would you say to the walkers and conservationists who are pissed off that you built the trails in the first place?
    To try and bring this thread back on topic, let's use your example/questions.

    If trail builders say skidding is bad for the trails, is that "fair enough"? If the clubs and land owners and others who sponsor the trails say skidding is bad for them, is it "fair enough" to say don't skid because it damages the trails... or is that crossing the line? Do trail builders, sponsors and owners "give a trail away" or do they let others enjoy them while maintaining either ownership or management of those trails? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, so builders do, in deed have a say in how those trails should be ridden. Or not ridden, I guess. No skidding is pretty widely accepted as not acceptable, right? I'd guess that riders didn't make that "rule", but rather trail builders and land managers did.

    So... is a cutty skidding? If not specifically skidding, is it still damaging to trails? And if so, is the "cool" factor of the move overshadowing the damage they cause to trails?

    (For the record, it does look to me to cause as much damage to a turn as skidding into one does simply by moving dirt out of the turn. But maybe, over time, if done enough, it would cause a natural berm and improve the turn/trail? Or changes the drainage of turns that would allow water to damage the trail?)

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Streetdoctor View Post
    It would never happen, I ride because it's fun.
    that should be the 1st priority.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Drifting is a controlled skid. Still effs up the trail, so in this context it's no different.

    Maybe I understand it differently, but skidding is locking the wheel with the brake. Drifting uses no brake.

    When done properly (and yes I realize that's a can o' worms) I don't think drifting hurts anything. I don't even think you can easily tell (by looking at the trail) that it's happened, though i guess that depends on the soil type.

    FWIW, I've drifted maybe 10 times in 35 years of riding, so it's not like it's my go-to or anything. Usually happens on accident, and I'm thrilled if I can ride it out.

    Drifting *on snow* on the other hand, is effing awesome and I've done it half a dozen times already this season. I wasn't much of a fan of grooming snow for bikes until I learned to drift the corners. Holy shiznit is that addictive...

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    Ya agree drifting on snow is a pretty amazing feeling. Skinny tire a bit more thrilling than on fat IMO.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Maybe I understand it differently, but skidding is locking the wheel with the brake. Drifting uses no brake.

    When done properly (and yes I realize that's a can o' worms) I don't think drifting hurts anything. I don't even think you can easily tell (by looking at the trail) that it's happened, though i guess that depends on the soil type.

    FWIW, I've drifted maybe 10 times in 35 years of riding, so it's not like it's my go-to or anything. Usually happens on accident, and I'm thrilled if I can ride it out.

    Drifting *on snow* on the other hand, is effing awesome and I've done it half a dozen times already this season. I wasn't much of a fan of grooming snow for bikes until I learned to drift the corners. Holy shiznit is that addictive...
    My favorite local trail to descend on a fat bike is 7 switchbacks over about 600 feet. It gets a lot of traffic, so it rides like itís groomed. The turns are just open enough to drift, and itís crazy fun.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Maybe I understand it differently, but skidding is locking the wheel with the brake. Drifting uses no brake.

    When done properly (and yes I realize that's a can o' worms) I don't think drifting hurts anything. I don't even think you can easily tell (by looking at the trail) that it's happened, though i guess that depends on the soil type.

    FWIW, I've drifted maybe 10 times in 35 years of riding, so it's not like it's my go-to or anything. Usually happens on accident, and I'm thrilled if I can ride it out.

    Drifting *on snow* on the other hand, is effing awesome and I've done it half a dozen times already this season. I wasn't much of a fan of grooming snow for bikes until I learned to drift the corners. Holy shiznit is that addictive...
    Check out my other post. I have a feeling we basically agree.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    If trail builders say skidding is bad for the trails, is that "fair enough"?
    I fear this is going to be another interminable thread of perpetual repetition and angst.

    No, it's not fair enough. Their unilateral decision that skidding should be outlawed is based on their narrow and jaundiced view of what constitutes reasonable use of the trail. A view heavily coloured by the fact that they are responsible for maintaining the trail and see anything that might increase that workload in a biased fashion. It's one-sided and unreasonable.

    Say you all get together and talk about the impact of skidding. You've got a group of people who are all involved in the building and maintenance and you'll all be of similar opinion on the issue. This peer affirmation will strengthen and exaggerate your opinion and you end up with the blinkered and illogical rhetoric internet forums thrive on!

    Skidding destroys trails. Really? Does that make sense?

    Let's take for example the trail center I've been to the most often, Glentress in the Scottish borders. It's a large trail center with all grades of trail and it's very busy. 300'000 visitors in 2014 and I know for a fact it's busier now. There are no signs telling riders not to skid or limiting the type of bike and riding allowed in any way. They even allow eBikes. Have I seen evidence of skidding destroying the trails? No. Which doesn't surprise me very much as the idea doesn't make that much sense.

    The pastern of substrate dispersal seen in corners is going to happen anyway. Look at a flat bend in the road and you'll see a deposit of stones and dirt around the outside edge. Cars generally don't skid around corners but turning the corner still has the effect of throwing debris outwards.

    Or the more destructive practice of locking up brakes in a straight line, popular with ten-year-old's of all ages. Again, normal braking, say approaching a corner for example, is still going to dig into the dirt and cause wear. Locking a wheel does the same type of damage, just a bit more of it.

    So pulling numbers out of the air, you could maybe say that one rider who skids or slides causes surface displacement that is equivalent to twenty riders who don't. Total guess but it doesn't matter. The point is that the same damage will occur whichever the type of riding, just at different rates.

    Now think about another number. How many of the trail users skid or slide? From what I've seen, not that many. It takes some skill, most riders don't have it, and even those who do don't all choose to drift every corner. I think it's obvious that the vast majority of trail wear comes not from skidding but from the sheer volume of trail users.

    I'm sure the fun part of trail building is designing the trails and riding them. Who wants to keep going out to fix the same trail over and over again, right? So I can see why you'd get grumpy about trail damage and look for someone to blame but let's be serous, you could just as justifiably blame normal trail users and propose a limit to the numbers to reduce trail damage!

    You see the problem? Mountain bike trails exist to provide riding enjoyment for the people riding them. The only way you can reduce wear on the trails is to restrict the freedom riders have to ride them. Whether that is by reducing rider numbers or banning skidding, good luck with enforcing that by the way, you are bringing into question the very reason for the existence of the trail in the first place!

    Maintain the trails or don't maintain the trails but stop whining about it. It's a brilliant thing you guys are doing, taking on the responsibility of building and maintaining trails, but remember what they are for. So maybe it does create a little more work but don't take the fun out of riding. That's the reason we all get on bikes.

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    No amount of DH skidding or cornering technique erodes trails nearly as fast as XC racer geeks feeling like they have to go "train" and ride clearly directional trails in reverse in their granny gear.

    Skidding and drifting on DHs may be a problem in specific soil types, or on very popular shuttled runs in loam or otherwise not compacted dirts. The force vectors on the tread are at a very shallow angle and don't "Dig" at the tread with anywhere near the applied force of the tire of a climber in a very light gear. Direction of force vector and torque make climbers WAY more erosive then dh traffic.
    Stop riding shit backwards ya'idiots.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Direction of force vector and torque make climbers WAY more erosive then dh traffic.
    Stop riding shit backwards ya'idiots.
    Can't say I've ever noticed trail damage from climbing, guess it must be a regional thing.
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    Drifting and skidding are two completely different acts. In a skid the rider is activating the tire's braking knobs and forcing them to dig into the ground. In a proper drift the tire's lateral acceleration threshold has been exceeded and results in the tire losing grip and sliding to the outside of a turn. In this instance the tire is not digging into the ground. It is skimming over the top of the trail. There is a marked difference in damage between the two.

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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Can't say I've ever noticed trail damage from climbing, guess it must be a regional thing.
    You've never seen a root create a step in the trail with the down hill side eroded away several inches? Must not have tree roots on your trails.

    I think the cutty or roost is more damaging in terms of physics than a skid. I love the technique and use it where applicable. I also do a lot of trail work and generally fix my own mess.

    If this "new" style is changing your trails, you have too many users and not enough contributors. Trails can sustain this use if the riders are engaged in all aspects of trail use, including trail work.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    You've never seen a root create a step in the trail with the down hill side eroded away several inches? Must not have tree roots on your trails.
    Trees?

    I'm sure tires may instigate it but water really does a number on the down side of ledges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Trees?

    I'm sure tires may instigate it but water really does a number on the down side of ledges.
    In my studies I find this phenomenon to not be exclusive true. I've watched it happen where water is not an issue. Climbers also seek lines around things a dh rider makes no considerations for. A steeper dh is far more sustainable than a steep climb, skidding, roosting, and all.

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    I think you more have an issue with that style of rider than anything else, based on your wording.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I fear this is going to be another interminable thread of perpetual repetition and angst.

    No, it's not fair enough. Their unilateral decision that skidding should be outlawed is based on their narrow and jaundiced view of what constitutes reasonable use of the trail. A view heavily coloured by the fact that they are responsible for maintaining the trail and see anything that might increase that workload in a biased fashion. It's one-sided and unreasonable.

    Say you all get together and talk about the impact of skidding. You've got a group of people who are all involved in the building and maintenance and you'll all be of similar opinion on the issue. This peer affirmation will strengthen and exaggerate your opinion and you end up with the blinkered and illogical rhetoric internet forums thrive on!

    Skidding destroys trails. Really? Does that make sense?

    Let's take for example the trail center I've been to the most often, Glentress in the Scottish borders. It's a large trail center with all grades of trail and it's very busy. 300'000 visitors in 2014 and I know for a fact it's busier now. There are no signs telling riders not to skid or limiting the type of bike and riding allowed in any way. They even allow eBikes. Have I seen evidence of skidding destroying the trails? No. Which doesn't surprise me very much as the idea doesn't make that much sense.

    The pastern of substrate dispersal seen in corners is going to happen anyway. Look at a flat bend in the road and you'll see a deposit of stones and dirt around the outside edge. Cars generally don't skid around corners but turning the corner still has the effect of throwing debris outwards.

    Or the more destructive practice of locking up brakes in a straight line, popular with ten-year-old's of all ages. Again, normal braking, say approaching a corner for example, is still going to dig into the dirt and cause wear. Locking a wheel does the same type of damage, just a bit more of it.

    So pulling numbers out of the air, you could maybe say that one rider who skids or slides causes surface displacement that is equivalent to twenty riders who don't. Total guess but it doesn't matter. The point is that the same damage will occur whichever the type of riding, just at different rates.

    Now think about another number. How many of the trail users skid or slide? From what I've seen, not that many. It takes some skill, most riders don't have it, and even those who do don't all choose to drift every corner. I think it's obvious that the vast majority of trail wear comes not from skidding but from the sheer volume of trail users.

    I'm sure the fun part of trail building is designing the trails and riding them. Who wants to keep going out to fix the same trail over and over again, right? So I can see why you'd get grumpy about trail damage and look for someone to blame but let's be serous, you could just as justifiably blame normal trail users and propose a limit to the numbers to reduce trail damage!

    You see the problem? Mountain bike trails exist to provide riding enjoyment for the people riding them. The only way you can reduce wear on the trails is to restrict the freedom riders have to ride them. Whether that is by reducing rider numbers or banning skidding, good luck with enforcing that by the way, you are bringing into question the very reason for the existence of the trail in the first place!

    Maintain the trails or don't maintain the trails but stop whining about it. It's a brilliant thing you guys are doing, taking on the responsibility of building and maintaining trails, but remember what they are for. So maybe it does create a little more work but don't take the fun out of riding. That's the reason we all get on bikes.
    Speaking of whining... that was quite the whiiiine. Wahhh.... the trail builders are all lazy and don't know anything about the trails they build. But they don't want to do any extra work, so they all conspire to say skidding is baaaad.

    But, of course, you know better. You're onto the conspiracy and you know they really don't know anything about proper trail building and maintenance. They just don't want to have to go do more work so the smart ones, like you, can use and "abuse" the trails to their heart's content knowing those lazy trailbuilders will come out and fix any damage that may occur, but mainly because of normal riding. Or uphill riding, as DaveVT says.

    Thank you for your wisdom and setting us all straight. Hopefully, those pesky, lazy, inconsiderate volunteer trailbuilders are reading this and have learned some valuable lessons from the wisdom you've so thoughtfully shared.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    Wahhh.... the trail builders are all lazy and don't know anything about the trails they build. But they don't want to do any extra work, so they all conspire to say skidding is baaaad.
    I didn't say that trail builder are lazy, just not right about everything. In fact I'm not talking to all trail builders, just petulant ones like you. Why don't you just chill out and let the kids ride their bikes?

  48. #148
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    The people arguing that no one should ever tear up a trail having fun are like the old people yelling at skateboarders for marginally damaging ledges in the park.

    They don't understand the art of shredding because they can't shred and it makes them bitter.

  49. #149
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    Loam

    Some riding techniques are more fun than other techniques, but may also be more damaging. We kind of hope everyone will choose a technique that prolongs the best condition of the trails. Just remember:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealy View Post
    The people arguing that no one should ever tear up a trail having fun are like the old people yelling at skateboarders for marginally damaging ledges in the park.

    They don't understand the art of shredding because they can't shred and it makes them bitter.
    No, marginally tearing up a ledge that does not belong to you is willful destruction of property and is already illegal. Same goes with a trail, probably not illegal, however if Hacksaw ever gets caught "brake jacking" and rutting up a trail his words here might catch him a vandalism charge, it is still disrespectful. If you built the trail on private land you have access to and it is intended to be for your private use, ie you and friends, do whatever you like. However, you have no right to destroy other's, or public, work and property.

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  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    No amount of DH skidding or cornering technique erodes trails nearly as fast as XC racer geeks feeling like they have to go "train" and ride clearly directional trails in reverse in their granny gear.

    Skidding and drifting on DHs may be a problem in specific soil types, or on very popular shuttled runs in loam or otherwise not compacted dirts. The force vectors on the tread are at a very shallow angle and don't "Dig" at the tread with anywhere near the applied force of the tire of a climber in a very light gear. Direction of force vector and torque make climbers WAY more erosive then dh traffic.
    Stop riding shit backwards ya'idiots.
    "Clearly directional".

    No such thing. Unless it's actually marked as such, it isn't a "directional" trail. Sorry. Your opinion doesn't make a trail something it isn't.

    Also, I'd be willing to bet than an "XC racer geek" does less damage to a trail in a year (or more) than one PinkBike shreddit. I'm pretty quick uphill, and I've never had dirt spray out from under my tires while climbing.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/brendo...ideo-2017.html

    Pretty good example as well. Comparing someone maintaining traction while climbing uphill at 8mph vs. the video below is just absurd. Come on.

    https://nsmb.com/articles/trail-dest...n-matty-miles/
    Last edited by Le Duke; 01-15-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Same goes with a trail, probably not illegal, however if Hacksaw ever gets caught "brake jacking" and rutting up a trail his words here might catch him a vandalism charge..
    Superb! Have you thought of joining the police? In 1930's Germany?

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Superb! Have you thought of joining the police? In 1930's Germany?
    It didn't take Godwin long to show up. No, I was just brought up to have a healthy respect for other people's property and work.

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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Superb! Have you thought of joining the police? In 1930's Germany?
    As to the legality of him being prosecuted. First you're making a strawman. Second, he's made clear that destruction by him on a flow trail is malicious and willful. If a gung-ho DA decided to they would have a case.

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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    As to the legality of him being prosecuted. First you're making a strawman.
    I'm not making anything, I quoted you.

  56. #156
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    Nobody is getting prosecuted for skidding.
    Never going to happen, ever, anywhere.

    Stop the insanity!
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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I'm not making anything, I quoted you.
    And why should I join the police? Because I think he should catch a vandalism charge?

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  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Nobody is getting prosecuted for skidding.
    Never going to happen, ever, anywhere.
    It doesn't matter. This lets you see the mentality you're dealing with. America produced some of the best skateboarders and BMX riders in the world precisely because people like this were not running the country.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    It doesn't matter. This lets you see the mentality you're dealing with. America produced some of the best skateboarders and BMX riders in the world precisely because people like this were not running the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    And why should I join the police? Because I think he should catch a vandalism charge?

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    Answer the question please

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    Hahaha!!! I'm gonna come down to the NWA and knob drag the krap out of your trails!!!!

    Go ahead and call the WHAAAAMBULANCE you sissy!!!😂

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Answer the question please.
    Are you sure you're not in the police?

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Are you sure you're not in the police?
    Quit dodging the question. Why should I join the police?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Hahaha!!! I'm gonna come down to the NWA and knob drag the krap out of your trails!!!!

    Go ahead and call the WHAAAAMBULANCE you sissy!!!😂
    Though nobody is getting prosecuted, I can guarantee I know places where you'd better be ready to dodge a shovel if someone catches you purposefully going out and trashing their hard work out of childish spite. Which is as it should be.
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  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Quit dodging the question. Why should I join the police?
    I think you might be a natural. Not everyone can be Tony Hawk. Although I appreciate that on principal you might not want to be anyway.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Though nobody is getting prosecuted, I can guarantee I know places where you'd better be ready to dodge a shovel if someone catches you purposefully going out and trashing their hard work out of childish spite. Which is as it should be.
    Heh, catching me in the act would be unpossible, unpossible I tellz ya. I am the 👻 Rider.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I think you might be a natural. Not everyone can be Tony Hawk. Although I appreciate that on principal you might not want to be anyway.
    In other words you talked yourself into a hole with your implication before you realized you thought I said something I didn't, classic strawman Got it thanks.

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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Heh, catching me in the act would be unpossible, unpossible I tellz ya. I am the 👻 Rider.
    They've got these things now called 'game cameras'.
    They work.
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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Though nobody is getting prosecuted, I can guarantee I know places where you'd better be ready to dodge a shovel if someone catches you purposefully going out and trashing their hard work out of childish spite. Which is as it should be.
    Out of curiosity:

    How is that any different than the average PinkBike shred/roost video?

    The result is the same, the intent is effectively the same.

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  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Out of curiosity:

    How is that any different than the average PinkBike shred/roost video?

    The result is the same, the intent is effectively the same.

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    The ones like the one you linked usually leave the trail in better condition than they found it when filming is done.

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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    They've got these things now called 'game cameras'.
    They work.
    Hahaha oh no!!!!!😱😂

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The ones like the one you linked usually leave the trail in better condition than they found it when filming is done.

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    What about the non-"pros" that film their own videos, then leave for the day?

    Those guys were actively widening trails; this is how we go from a shoulder wide ribbon of dirt to a 7ft wide "trail".



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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Out of curiosity:

    How is that any different than the average PinkBike shred/roost video?

    The result is the same, the intent is effectively the same.

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    Intent is not the same.
    One is incidental to riding, one is deliberately just being a dick.

    For example:
    I don't get upset if a rock flies off up from someone's tire on the highway and hits my car.

    I do get upset if some asshole purposefully throws a rock at my car.
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  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    What about the non-"pros" that film their own videos, then leave for the day?

    Those guys were actively widening trails; this is how we go from a shoulder wide ribbon of dirt to a 7ft wide "trail".



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    In that case yes, they may be causing damage, but still not as much as a full on skid for the most part. The industry needs to do a better job of making the cleanup part more visible in their films.

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  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Hahaha oh no!!!!!
    Oh yeah!

    So far we've only actually needed them to help keep the teen drinkers from trashing stuff and for a couple ATV riders that needed a visit from the local PD to get them to play nice with the MTB trails. None of the actual mountain bikers I've met in my entire life have been the sort of douchebags to purposefully go out of their way to try to damage trails simply out of juvenile selfishness and spite.

    Well, until now I guess.
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  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    In that case yes, they may be causing damage, but still not as much as a full on skid for the most part. The industry needs to do a better job of making the cleanup part more visible in their films.

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    Agreed.

    But, trail work doesn't sell bikes.

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  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Agreed.

    But, trail work doesn't sell bikes.

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    There have been a couple, usually someone like Semenuk or another slopestyler, where trail work features heavily and is artfully done, but yes I agree. Interestingly enough I've never once watched an industry video and said I have to have that lol.

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  78. #178
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    I freaking love skidding!

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    Wow, the SJW is strong in this thread.

    Now watch me cutty!
    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I freaking love skidding!
    This!!!^^^^^

    I'm gonna skid bulldozah trails so hahd that the game cameraz are gonna get smoke screened out!

  81. #181
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    what is skid
    To me it's a mistake. When I feel my tires slipping because of the brake being over-applied, I try to adjust the pressure I'm using. On the other hand I love feeling all hooligan by speeding loosely through the turns like crazy, and flying off any little feature I can find.
    And D J, your damn squirrel is phunnny I'm printing that to use with a few co-workers.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim c View Post
    what is skid
    Quote Originally Posted by sito40 View Post
    You guys should chill out. Take some weeds!

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfield View Post
    Good perspective!

    Now... where does the cutty fit into this hierarchy?

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    Mr. Pig, this trail centre you speak of? Full time trail crew? Seems like a huge amount of riders for a year?

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    Ya'll got it wrong, skidding means you are using the brakes. Wrong. Those just slow you down. Are you a fast rider or one that goes slow? Flow on the trail. Be the rock. Become the wheel. Roll. Roll on. That is all.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Mr. Pig, this trail centre you speak of? Full time trail crew? Seems like a huge amount of riders for a year?
    I don't know. The site is owned by the Forestry Commission and they are responsible for the trails as far as I am aware, but I could be wrong. You do regularly see guys working out on the trails or trails closed for maintenance.

    To be honest, I really don't see a lot of damage that might be attributed to skidding or sliding. None really. The post common sights are 'bomb craters'. Water collects on low points, the ground gets soft then thrown out when bikes pass through it. The resulting hole is even better at collecting water so the hole gets bigger!

    But heck, who cares? Is this mountain biking or what? Suddenly we can't deal with a small hole in the ground?

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I don't know. The site is owned by the Forestry Commission and they are responsible for the trails as far as I am aware, but I could be wrong. You do regularly see guys working out on the trails or trails closed for maintenance.

    To be honest, I really don't see a lot of damage that might be attributed to skidding or sliding. None really. The post common sights are 'bomb craters'. Water collects on low points, the ground gets soft then thrown out when bikes pass through it. The resulting hole is even better at collecting water so the hole gets bigger!

    But heck, who cares? Is this mountain biking or what? Suddenly we can't deal with a small hole in the ground?
    Well it's kind of the point. 300,000 riders a year I'm sure has a full time trail care crew. That's WHY you don't see the damage. Are they one way trails? Lots of different areas in the US ( And Afar) for terrain, trail style and dirt types. MA rider here, lots of rock, little dirt, almost no wide dirt roads type mt bike trails. Mostly volunteer trail builds on state and local conservation lands. NOT paid trail crews doing weekly upkeep. A little protective of their hard work I'm sure. Loose over hardpack? I keep reading about that, never pedaled on it. The skidding thing I'm sure is very regional, dirt specific type thing. How about this, ride nicely, don't be a d bag?

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Well it's kind of the point. 300,000 riders a year I'm sure has a full time trail care crew. That's WHY you don't see the damage.
    I guess they must like bomb craters then? Are you suggesting they ignore the hundreds of bomb craters I see but sort skid damage instantly? That doesn't make any sense.

    Yes, virtually all of the trail are one-way. Some of the access roads are two-way and bikes share some gravel roads with cars too but the single-track is all one-way.

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The ones like the one you linked usually leave the trail in better condition than they found it when filming is done.

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    Umm no they do not.

    I live in Kamloops BC, one of the most filmed mountain bike areas on the planet. As someone does a lot of trail building and maintance I can tell you first hand the film crews certainly do not clean up after themselves.

    My wife is president of our local cycling association and she gets contacted by land manager all the time asking if we know anything about the latest trail segment built for a film. (I say segment because they carve 100 feet out of grass land in a nature preserve).

    This rather famous shot is on a trail I built. The corner was modified for the shoot. If you can ride like Matt it is a rad corner otherwise it is now a rather awkard one. At first I was rather annoyed about it, but after seeing the video I have spent hours unsuccessfully trying to drag my bars through the turn.
    :I don't get this trend-maxresdefault.jpg
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMN View Post
    Umm no they do not.

    I live in Kamloops BC, one of the most filmed mountain bike areas on the planet. As someone does a lot of trail building and maintance I can tell you first hand the film crews certainly do not clean up after themselves.

    My wife is president of our local cycling association and she gets contacted by land manager all the time asking if we know anything about the latest trail segment built for a film. (I say segment because they carve 100 feet out of grass land in a nature preserve).

    This rather famous shot is on a trail I built. The corner was modified for the shoot. If you can ride like Matt it is a rad corner otherwise it is now a rather awkard one. At first I was rather annoyed about it, but after seeing the video I have spent hours unsuccessfully trying to drag my bars through the turn.
    :Click image for larger version. 

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    That's great that you have your own anecdote and I have mine. My experience is opposite of yours. So maybe it is crew or locale specific?

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  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    That's great that you have your own anecdote and I have mine. My experience is opposite of yours. So maybe it is crew or locale specific?

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    Maybe. But film crews from around the world come to film in Kamloops. And although it made Kamloops a well known place, for years the local riders had to deal with fall out of the damage they did.


    And FYI the trail destruction video was shot in Kamloops.....
    "The best pace is suicide pace, and today is a good day to die." Steve Prefontaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I guess they must like bomb craters then? Are you suggesting they ignore the hundreds of bomb craters I see but sort skid damage instantly? That doesn't make any sense.

    Yes, virtually all of the trail are one-way. Some of the access roads are two-way and bikes share some gravel roads with cars too but the single-track is all one-way.
    So how many days a year do you do trail work? Member of a mt bike group? For formal, org days I get about 8-10. More on my own for my local stuff, say 4-5 half days, depends on storms and wind damage.

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    Owned.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    So how many days a year do you do trail work?
    Is that how you try to obliterate opposing views? If you don't do trail work your opinion means nothing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Is that how you try to obliterate opposing views? If you don't do trail work your opinion means nothing?
    Not at all. Your view is valid as any other. Just getting you to try to see MY view. Not riding at a trail center, sculpted one- way riding experience. Or a lift served place where your money goes to upkeep. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Try on forest trail in a state park, volunteer work on your days off, with plenty of sweat involved. Walk the line with the land manager, flag and evaluate for water, vernal pools or some kind of rare plants. Schedule a build day, org the volunteers, hope for good weather, get the tool trailer there, and plan for some lunch/beverages to feed the hungry masses. Moving rocks, digging dirt, clearing duff, chainsaw work, rock work, hauling lumber, standing in mud to clear that brook or wetlands, repeat as needed. Going on 18 years or so for me. Not boasting, just stating some info about how trails get to be a trail here in MA and lots of places in New England and the US. Is a little skid here or there a huge issue? Nope. It's more of about mindset and attitude. Nemba( my mt bike org) has like 5,000 members and 30 chapters that cover most of New England. ( VT has their own thing) Most folks I ride with do some kind of trail stewardship, leading rides, support of many kinds, digging dirt, hosting events, and such. It's my trail, it's their trail, it's whoever worked on it, it's their trail. No one with ownership is going to trash it. Ever. 18 years out I still get to ride some awesome trails, always evaluating,looking at a grade or turn that needs work. Picking up sticks and kicking( clearing) out some drains spring and fall. 99% of the time I carry a 12" folding saw in my pack to cut up downed branches and limbs. So that's my view and experience. Cheers, enjoy the ride. Really that's what its all about. For me, riding and being a good trail steward is what its all about. Yesterdays ride was 2.5 hrs at my local. Cut up 2 branches and stopped to pick up at least 10 branches to clear the trail.

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    Clearing duff, SHAME ON YOU^^^^^^^^^

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Clearing duff, SHAME ON YOU^^^^^^^^^
    Do you do anything USEFUL or just like to criticize everyone?

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    I don't really give much of a crap about how other people ride.

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Baird View Post
    I don't really give much of a crap about how other people ride.
    Maybe that's the problem, you need to get your panties in a wad about other people like many others on mtbr.
    Niner Jet 9 RDO, Scalpel 29, XTC 650b, 04 Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Trek Rigid SS - No suspension, no gears....no problem

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    The laws of physics apply to mtn. A bike tire attempting to slow or change direction will never exert as much force on the tread as a rider moving up hill. While spinning up a very steep section may not throw dirt in your face, it displaces the dirt knobby by knobby. You can watch countless riders roll down a steep section of compacted trail with almost no trace of traffic. Even a back tire skid is superficial. Then watch a climber in a very low gear climb that section. Now only will most meander a widen the impact area, but every block and lug of tire tread will dig. Just the facts.
    Drifting is more impact than a skid. Drifting on 2 wheels is ****ing awesome. Skidding is the correction needed after a rider error. Fun? Yeah, riding bikes is fun.
    In a trail network, when there is a completely sustainable climb leading to a single track that mostly descends, in some cases over steep ledges that virtually everyone rides in the same direction, it s directional.
    Do we really need to sign everything?

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