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  1. #1
    Its only 1" on the map!
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    "Hanging Over" in Sedona ~VIDEO~

    I put together a video of the Hangover Trail in Sedona from a few weeks ago. I had my very own Over the Edge moment there that could have ended badly but thankfully didn't. One thing is for sure I cashed all of my Karma Points with that one. It was pretty interesting to look at the video footage afterwards. Man, things I remembered happening so slowly "in the moment" went by in the blink of an eye. As with all videos, things are steeper than look, but I did not realize just how exposed some of the sections were until reviewing the footage.

    Ahh, enough yapping.

    <strong> </strong><a href="http://ww.mountainbikebill.com/videos/AZ09-Hangover.wmv"><strong>Right Click Here </strong></a><strong>to download the 128MB WMV format file that runs 9 minutes and 10 seconds.</strong>

    While you are waiting for the file to download you can check out some of my other pages and posts on Sedona

    <a href="http://www.mountainbikebill.com/blog/?s=Sedona">Blog Posts</a> <a href="http://www.mountainbikebill.com/AZ06Summer.htm">Arizona Summer 2006</a> <a href="http://www.mountainbikebill.com/AZ07Winter.htm">Arizona Winter 2007 </a> <a href="http://www.mountainbikebill.com/AZ08SoMo-Day1.htm">Arizona Spring 2008</a>

    <img class="alignnone" style="border: black 3px solid;" src="http://www.mountainbikebill.com/blog/wp-content/imagescaler/3098474eb6d2144cb76f829b83c2e526.jpg" alt="" width="599" height="899" />

  2. #2
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    damn bill that looked like a wet your pants oh s&*t kkinda moment. I had one off Aeia Loop on Oahu myself but not as scary as yours.

    that hidef cam of yours really captures some vibrant, popping colors. very, very nice video.

  3. #3
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    Yikes!

    Yikes! That was difficult to watch without bobbing and weaving my head on some of those narrow off camber sections against those rock walls. Good thing that helicopter came along in time to rescue you. Spectacular quality

  4. #4
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    Nice Bill.

    I'm sorry that Troy was such a pu$$y and walked the ice covered slickrock section but I am thankful that Jason was there, and is as tall as he is so he could reach you, when you went over the edge (pun intended).

    I really like the juxtaposition of desert and/snow. And the old school musak.

    Signed,

    Last time we rode together was too long ago above Palm Desert (with credit to Art Smith).

  5. #5
    I like Squishy Bikes
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    Wow!
    *Marks Hangover Trail off his "Must Do" list*
    A dirty book is rarely dusty

  6. #6
    Purveyor of Trail Tales!
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    Amazzzzzzing!!!!!!!!

    Hey Mr. Bill,

    Holy Poopers Batman that was too close for comfort! Who says trail riding isnt scary?!? I think Ill stick to hucks, drops and kickers for safeties sake. Im glad that turned out so well as it was a frightening piece of footage to watch much less to experience. Thanks for sharing and Im glad Im just an armchair warrior on that ride.

    Take care and be safe!!!

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  7. #7
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    Holy Freakin' Crap!

    That was scary.

    That was also the coolest trail I've ever seen.

    That was also the best quality helmet cam vid I've ever seen.

    That was very much worth the 45 mins it took me to download.

    That made my day complete. Thank you.
    "My Fat Hurts." - Me

  8. #8
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    Very cool trail and great vid Bill. It was well worth the 12 minute wait to download. Large format... great quality. Glad your "Miles moment" didn't end up any worse (Didn't you film that famous segment as well?). That entire trail looks like it's literally hung on the edge of a cliff. Looks like I need to get back to Sedona and get off the beaten track.

    BTW where is "Hang Over"? It looks like it's in the same general area or part of Damifino.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
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  9. #9
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    Wow! Glad your ok.

    I always enjoy your videos. Great quality and cool trails.

    I see you were following Tiggerider for the second half of the vid. Toeclips rule!

  10. #10
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    All I can say is wow! Oh, and we will probably never meet each other on that trail. Looks a little over my head. Glad your ok. Thanks for sharing. Wow!!

  11. #11
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    Great Vid...glad your ok, that was a close one!

    I really enjoy riding in Sedona....and to think its only about 4.5 hrs away.

  12. #12
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    One of my favorites and I am spoiled as it is just under an hour from me! Best vid I have seen of it - you really did it justice. Is it in HD? Excellent vid quality, and super smooth.

  13. #13
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    That entire trail looks like it's literally hung on the edge of a cliff.
    It is.
    BTW where is "Hang Over"? It looks like it's in the same general area or part of Damifino.
    Same area, opposite of Damifino.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  14. #14
    2006 Yeti AS-X
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    D/L the video! Awesome quality! I got the ebbie jeebies just watching it. You all have definetly bigger cohoonas than I do, I admit that right here in public.

    Glad you were OK, that fall off the bike looked very nasty.

  15. #15
    avg. joe
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    You know that it isn't the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop. Glad you're ok. Truly an awesome video, thanks for doing the work.

    STinGa
    The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas.

  16. #16
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    That will be a trail I'll only see from your video. FWIW it was a 5 minute download for me. I don't think I've ever been as involved watching the riding as in this video! Do you have pictures from another angle of the spot where you went off?
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  17. #17
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    Mtbbill Wow that Video made my hands sweat and heart pound. I'm amazed you had no trouble getting back on and riding more of the same exposure after your tumble.
    I rode a similar unofficial trail in Sedona a few years ago and swore I would never ride a trail with that much exposure mixed with no room for error. Then last summer up in Flag at the start of Sunrise trail I tumbled off the section know as Organ Donor. Like you I was lucky and only a bush stopped me after 15-20 ft of tumbling. No video or pictures but it has permanently changed my riding. I admit it I'm now a major puss when it comes to exposure.
    Props to you for being able to complete the ride.
    HoJo

  18. #18
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    Nice riding guys. You know how to maintain "can do" focus while on the bike.

    The scenery is spectacular - like all of Sedona.

  19. #19
    Yes, that's fonetic
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    Very nice vid. Do you have info on the camera/mount you're using? From the shadows and quality it doesn't look like your average lipstick camera.

  20. #20
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    Great video!

    The trail really looks exposed, love all the red dirt though

    I once had a similar moment in the Italian Alps at Lago di Garda.

    We did two really high mountains in one day and right before we hit the second summit, there was only a bar-wide trail, which on one side had those small crumply high altitude trees and on the other side there is nothing, except a absolutely vertical rock, beneath you, if you look down there it goes about 600feet straight downward.
    We were friggin scared to get near the edge, but too tired to turn back. So we just rolled along the singletrack, after a couple of minutes it wasnt so bad, actually a nice smooth trail.
    But I only started to enjoy it until a branch/twig of a tree to my right got caught between my back and my backpack. I came to a sudden halt with my feet dangling maybe 5 inches above the ground, my bike only held trough my hands at the bars with the rearwheel over the edge.

    It felt like somebody threw me in cold water or something.
    I tried to push my bike and walk, but the damn trail was too narrow in some spots, so I got on the bike again, my heart pounding like a helicopter and rolled on.

    Made it finally, without another incident. But my riding in exposed conditions surely changed quite a bit.

    Id never ever ride that trail again, even though the following trails are fantastic.


    Greetings Znarf

  21. #21
    Ride and Smile suckas
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    Nice kung fu grip. good thing that root system was developed nicely. Thanks for sharing the video.
    "DO OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY" -Yoda
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  22. #22
    Rock Star!!!
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    excellent video, good action shots and A+ on the music .... the terrain looks very technical but fun..... thanks for shearing
    Collaborate,Ride

  23. #23
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    That was an excellent vid...well worth the download time!!

    Are those chalk bags on your buddies sides?

  24. #24
    Its only 1" on the map!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBghandi
    Nice Bill.

    I'm sorry that Troy was such a pu$$y and walked the ice covered slickrock section but I am thankful that Jason was there, and is as tall as he is so he could reach you, when you went over the edge (pun intended).

    I really like the juxtaposition of desert and/snow. And the old school musak.

    Signed,

    Last time we rode together was too long ago above Palm Desert (with credit to Art Smith).

    Oh Hey!, I did not recognize you with the glasses and skinhead haircut.

    That last ride was way to long ago.

  25. #25
    "Ride Lots" - Eddie Mercx
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    Lame.

    I mean, was the average speed on that trail 5 mph? come on now.

    And was the fall that big of a deal? Really? You wasted over a minute of video time and all you did was tip over. It's not worthy of immortal status until you carwheel down a cactus covered hill and still have the presence of mind to scream "Ohhhhhhh fooooooooccccccckkkkkkkk mmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" on your way!

    Serously, there are sure footed hoofed mammals that wouldn't walk that trail!

    Nicely done.

    YR

  26. #26
    Really I am that slow
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    Good Video

    It was awesome to ride with yah!

    I'm even more glad that things went ok after you went over the edge....
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

  27. #27
    Its only 1" on the map!
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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck
    Very nice vid. Do you have info on the camera/mount you're using? From the shadows and quality it doesn't look like your average lipstick camera.
    Here is my basic setup. Old at top of page, newer at bottom.

    <img src="http://www.mtbbill.com/cpg/albums/SkylineDH-23NOV08/normal_SkylineDH-23NOV08-13.jpg" border=3">

    Recently have been tinkering with a new helmet camera mounting setup that would allow to get away from having a dedicated helmet for the camera system. Wearing the helmet camera on long climbs when you are not filming is a bummer. I would often carry two helmets. I wanted to be able to quickly remove the camera gear so that I could only carry a single helmet on a ride. The new setup basically uses the quick-release mounts designed for professional/prosumer grade camera tripods.

    The full-face helmet adds alot of extra cushion on the inside that I think helps smooth things out a little in addition to the camera image stablization. (I also switched to a plush coil shock that may help as well) I have not completed the XC helmet setup yet so the full-face was used on this ride. That full-face really kicked my arse on that ride as most of the riding was slow moving and I could not get enough air moving through the helmet. I often felt was often rebreathing a portion of my CO2 rich exhales. I'm making completing the XC rig more of a priority.

  28. #28
    Powered by ice cream.
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    Hey Bill, "Don't bust the crust."

    Very nice video. I rode it a week or two ago, and it did not seem so bad. If anything, your video makes it look way sketchier than I remember. I suspect I was just very focused.

  29. #29
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    [QUOTE=mtbbill]I put together a video of the Hangover Trail in Sedona from a few weeks ago. I had my very own Over the Edge moment there that could have ended badly but thankfully didn't. One thing is for sure I cashed all of my Karma Points with that one. It was pretty interesting to look at the video footage afterwards. Man, things I remembered happening so slowly "in the moment" went by in the blink of an eye. As with all videos, things are steeper than look, but I did not realize just how exposed some of the sections were until reviewing the footage.

    Ahh, enough yapping.

    <strong> </strong><a href="http://ww.mountainbikebill.com/videos/AZ09-Hangover.wmv"><strong>Right Click Here </strong></a><strong>to download the 128MB WMV format file that runs 9 minutes and 10 seconds.</strong>

    QUOTE]

    Bill:

    Nice picture, you are riding the advanced route over that rock. The expert route is through the gap in the two rocks to your right (looking at you), never made it clean myself.

    Did you make the world class uphill clean that came shortly after the picture? The video shows someone making the last white band transition to the lower slickrock shelf, but not the whole climb. It would have been cool to get a video of the whole climb.

    Saw you out with the Nod the next day. You probably were smiling a lot on that ride.

    Doc

  30. #30
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    Awsome vid Bill. Major De ja vue moment for me. I got a jolt of adrenalin still cursing through me.

    I had the pleasure of riding that trail on my Az trip last Oct. The guy who took our group through it swore us to secrecy. I didn't even know the trail name.

    the heavy breathing came frome being scared not tired. I don't know that I would of done it with the patch snow sections myself. Glad you didn,t get hurt.




    sorry for the thread jacking

  31. #31
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    All right; lets have the truth here...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill
    I own Over the Edge ,Ahh, enough yapping.
    What really happened there was... we spent 6 hours setting up the "fake fall" and the harness system to get the look of hanging OVER THE EDGE (thanks for the plug). With 17 grips on location and an actual helicopter to shuttle equipment and provide rescue support if needed. We only rode in that few hundred yards to the spot where we set up the "fake fall". I think everyone should know; Jason is really an actor whom we hired to act all dramatic and pretend he is rescuing you (all that was really shot in studio). Kudos to Jason for doing such a pro job in pretending to be all concerned when he was really reaching for nothing more than a tuna sandwich. I know that by the time we were done I felt like we had wasted a whole day, nice to see you actually made a pretty believable piece out of that. Somewhat redeeming I suppose. Oh and for all who don't know; the camera really makes the cliff look WAY STEEPER than it really is and the height looks much worse, it was really only a few feet and resembled a skate park half pipe in dramatics.

    OK; Not really, he really did fall off a cliff. THe truth that I probably should be revealing was... I pushed him. Sorry Bill. Notice how I was right in front and then suddenly gone? I was behind him because as P... I mean Ghandi, pointed out so clearly, I walked the Ice and BIll rode it and thus I was behind and pissed and humiliated. I not only pushed Bill but didn't even slow down when he went OVER THE EDGE, I just kept riding. A pretty nice trail when you have it all to yourself. I liked the rest of the ride and was surprised to see you survived. Well done. I suppose nw your mad at me, whatever, I don't suppose you'll be too pissed now that you've received all this attention. Your welcome

    OK; Im silly

    Glad you were there and glad this all worked out so cool

    Ghandi likes goats!

    Lets ride again soon... Fruita? With the freak? and a bald headed kind man?

    Word, cheers and Ciao
    Troy

    [I]Over the Edge Sports - Fruita - Sedona - Hurricane - Melrose
    www.otesports.com

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chet
    I walked the Ice and BIll rode it and thus I was behind and pissed and humiliated. I not only pushed Bill but didn't even slow down when he went OVER THE EDGE, I just kept riding. A pretty nice trail when you have it all to yourself. I
    Went up today and rode the trail with no ice or snow being present conditions were perfect. Kept looking for the fall spot but never saw it. You don't ever want to step off to your right on that trail.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  33. #33
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    Sure looks like a good time

  34. #34
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    I hate you all for having access to those trails.

    So jealous right now...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgreen9761
    I hate you all for having access to those trails.

    So jealous right now...
    Perhaps, but maybe for not much longer. Nice Vid of an illegal trail. Cool yes, but the more exposure so to speak via the internet will help ensure it's closure/destruction. Sad but true.

  36. #36
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    THAT WAS SWEET!!!! If I ever get out that way I want to do that trail! Thanks for the vid!

  37. #37
    Towlie for prez
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    Nice work,can you video some more illegal trails so the forest service shuts them down too!
    If I had been the one to show you the goods,and you videotaped it and posted it on this forum...........dude,seriously wtf were you thinking?

  38. #38
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    Nice work,can you video some more illegal trails so the forest service shuts them down too!
    If I had been the one to show you the goods,and you videotaped it and posted it on this forum...........dude,seriously wtf were you thinking?
    Well WTF were you thinking by showing someone else the trail?

    Everyone always gets all high and mighty, but if you're showing the trail to anyone, it's simply what is going to happen. If anyone but the original builder rides it, it's going to happen.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  39. #39
    Its only 1" on the map!
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    Funny how some people act like this trail is a secret. There is at least six other videos of Hangover on the net. Pictures and talk have been all over the net. There are 2 pages of links mentioning it in the AZ forum here alone. The forums, competitive cyclist, dirtrag, etc… Anyone with 3 minutes to kill online and Cosmic Ray’s book can easily figure it out. The Forest Service knows about this trail as well. I have had numerous people who have visited Sedona email/tell me about Hangover and they found out about Hangover in the bike shops. Not as a insider hookup, but as some joe-blow tourist off the street. If Sedona wanted it to keep Hangover on the down low then the shops should not have been showing out-of-town strangers around.

    Believe me if Hangover was anywhere near being below the radar it would not be posted by me.

  40. #40
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    You're right, Hangover is no secret. Irregardless, it doesn't help the on-going USFS/MTB conflict in Sedona by posting VIDs of non-system trails, especially containing melodramatic footage of riders falling off the edge.

    On the other hand, you have created a great video. It will be nice to view and remember it's awesomeness after the trail is obliterated.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman

    On the other hand, you have created a great video.
    I find myself watching it over and over Too bad we can't 'share' in a community based on sharing.

  42. #42
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    Thanks for sharing yet another great video Bill! Your footage was aweome! Glad you were ok after that fall. It looked quite nasty.
    2006 Specialized Enduro Elite
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  43. #43
    Towlie for prez
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    Well obviously someone of your high moral and ethical standards will post up a video/report.I have shown/been shown "secret trails" that are still around years later w/o any reports/vids on mtbr,etc...
    I was under the false impression that you keep that to yourself if you are lucky enough to be invited to ride them.Just because others do it(and jump off bridges) doesnt make it right.We as a collective group should do all we can to keep secret trails secret for the greater good.....dont you agree?
    I am glad bill didnt get hurt,but some stupid tourista w/more balls than skills might not be so lucky.And if search and rescue has to be called in to haul his broken ass out people are gonna start getting arrested for riding these trails(has already happened in the past)
    The forest service is currently on a rampage down there anyway,and has destroyed a few other gems

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    I was under the false impression that you keep that to yourself if you are lucky enough to be invited to ride them.
    Lets just be realistic here. If the original builders invite 5 friends to ride it and say "don't tell anyone", those 5 riders will ride it and do their own rides and invite a few friends to ride it. Pretty soon it gets widely known. Assuming that this will not happen is a false assumption. No matter what any one of us personally thinks or does, this is what will happen.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Lets just be realistic here. If the original builders invite 5 friends to ride it and say "don't tell anyone", those 5 riders will ride it and do their own rides and invite a few friends to ride it. Pretty soon it gets widely known. Assuming that this will not happen is a false assumption. No matter what any one of us personally thinks or does, this is what will happen.
    True enough, but posting vids or pics, whether here to spread the stoke or in the AZ forum, is basically throwing it in the land manager's face.

  46. #46
    Towlie for prez
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    Yes we should share!!!!
    But,we should keep the stoke to legal trails...imho
    A great vid for sure,but we can post great LEGAL trail video,too &
    god knows sedona has lots of legal stoke!

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    Damn...I agree with Jayem! As a builder of some bootleg stuff, it hurts more when you don't have the support of those that you are building them for than to have forest service shutting them down. The more support we give for these types of trails, legal or not, the more likely we will be riding them in the future. Besides, just like riding, building is all about comradery and learning.

    Really no one has the right to complain but the builders...and they are at fault for showing someone outside the group.

  48. #48
    Gabe.....
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    Now that is paradise! Thanks for the fix..........
    "Roll your own..........." http://smokebikes.com/

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Lets just be realistic here. If the original builders invite 5 friends to ride it and say "don't tell anyone", those 5 riders will ride it and do their own rides and invite a few friends to ride it. Pretty soon it gets widely known. Assuming that this will not happen is a false assumption. No matter what any one of us personally thinks or does, this is what will happen.
    Jayem:

    I couldn't agree with you more. I am curious if we could ask Mountain Bike Bill to never do a video of a social/non-system trail in the future, if he would agree to that request. What say you Bill?

    The reason why this trail is talked about so much is because it is one of the best trails to have ever been found. Tourism in Sedona is up about 2% due to its existence.

    We know that the Forest Service could care less about Sedona's tourism since their efforts aren't judged by how the whole trail system is helping the health of the residents and increases in tourism. They aren't paid to think outside of the box, they are paid to decommission really well thought out and well built trails plus trying to maintain the local system trails.

    Take Whistler for example: they have the best cross-country, all mountain, freeride and downhill trail system in the whole world. They have a local bike club (WORCA http://www.worca.com/itoolkit.asp?pg=2007loonies ) that has over 600 members and the community totally supports mountain biking because it is good for the health of the residents and brings in millions of dollars of tourism dollars.

    Many of the WORCA bike club members are also city employees. The mayor is a bike club member. The head of Parks and Recreation is a bike club member and I am sure several of the City Council members are bike club members.

    Whistler even hired the main social trail builders to help maintain, improve and build new trails in their community. The trail builder, Chris Markel, who built a 19 kilometer social trail, Comfortably Numb aka: Foreplay, did such a good job that he is currently a Whistler employee.

    The oldest member of WORCA is 71 years young and he totally kicks butt on the cross-country race nights once a week during the summer. Attached is a picture of a normal 5 P.M. race turnout for a two hour race. The fire department sponsored the race and led the start of the race with an old fire engine. After the race they sponsored a hamburger barbecue for all the contestants.

    Why Sedona couldn't follow in their footsteps is a mystery to me.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by traildoc; 02-03-2009 at 10:19 PM.

  50. #50
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    Amen to that

  51. #51
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    Yep, it has some of the best landscape/scenery in the world... imo.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill
    Funny how some people act like this trail is a secret. There is at least six other videos of Hangover on the net. Pictures and talk have been all over the net. There are 2 pages of links mentioning it in the AZ forum here alone. The forums, competitive cyclist, dirtrag, etc Anyone with 3 minutes to kill online and Cosmic Rays book can easily figure it out. The Forest Service knows about this trail as well. I have had numerous people who have visited Sedona email/tell me about Hangover and they found out about Hangover in the bike shops. Not as a insider hookup, but as some joe-blow tourist off the street. If Sedona wanted it to keep Hangover on the down low then the shops should not have been showing out-of-town strangers around.

    Believe me if Hangover was anywhere near being below the radar it would not be posted by me.
    I had the pleasure of riding Hangover for the first time in Oct. I did my on-line homework, mapped out my best guess of the route, and then took my group on what was arguably one of my best rides in 2008. Part of the joy of that particular day was the sense of discovery and the other part was the absolutely kick-ass nature of this treasure of a trail. The only thing it lacks is a little more length.

    I have returned several times and the thrill is always there. That first time I walked quite a bit but I've since returned several times my game on (and flat pedals!) and was able to rock all the tricky spots. But I will never forget that first ride.... we were deep into a Sedona weekend with camping at Chavez Crossing and a few XC rides already under our belts, it was a perfectly beautiful Sedona day, the group of friends were the best around, and that trail called Hangover made it a lifetime memory to be cherished.

    <object width="400" height="302"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2263123&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=ff9933&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2263123&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=ff9933&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="302"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://vimeo.com/2263123">Sedona Riding</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/durtgurl">DurtGurl</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Jayem:

    I couldn't agree with you more. I am curious if we could ask Mountain Bike Bill to never do a video of a social/non-system trail in the future, if he would agree to that request. What say you Bill?

    The reason why this trail is talked about so much is because it is one of the best trails to have ever been found. Tourism in Sedona is up about 2% due to its existence.

    We know that the Forest Service could care less about Sedona's tourism since their efforts aren't judged by how the whole trail system is helping the health of the residents and increases in tourism. They aren't paid to think outside of the box, they are paid to decommission really well thought out and well built trails plus trying to maintain the local system trails.

    Take Whistler for example: they have the best cross-country, all mountain, freeride and downhill trail system in the whole world. They have a local bike club (WORCA http://www.worca.com/itoolkit.asp?pg=2007loonies ) that has over 600 members and the community totally supports mountain biking because it is good for the health of the residents and brings in millions of dollars of tourism dollars.

    Many of the WORCA bike club members are also city employees. The mayor is a bike club member. The head of Parks and Recreation is a bike club member and I am sure several of the City Council members are bike club members.

    Whistler even hired the main social trail builders to help maintain, improve and build new trails in their community. The trail builder, Chris Markel, who built a 19 kilometer social trail, Comfortably Numb aka: Foreplay, did such a good job that he is currently a Whistler employee.

    The oldest member of WORCA is 71 years young and he totally kicks butt on the cross-country race nights once a week during the summer. Attached is a picture of a normal 5 P.M. race turnout for a two hour race. The fire department sponsored the race and led the start of the race with an old fire engine. After the race they sponsored a hamburger barbecue for all the contestants.

    Why Sedona couldn't follow in their footsteps is a mystery to me.
    Doc, is your vision for MTB Sedona Utopia best served by making videos and building/riding wherever you want best and jamming it down the land manager's throat? I can't say I disagree with your vision but it didn't work in Marin Co and Mt. Tam. Maybe Whistler is more liberal than San Francisco? But Sedona? A city surrounded by national forest with the USFS managing it like a wilderness area and a large proportion of the citizens composed of retiree's utilizing the trails to get their poodles some exercise.

    Maybe a different approach is needed? Kind or ironic that many of the riders in that video took an entirely different approach to building an awesome trail network in Fruita.
    Last edited by rockman; 02-04-2009 at 07:50 AM.

  54. #54
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    Very very nice

    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    I had the pleasure of riding Hangover for the first time in Oct. I did my on-line homework, mapped out my best guess of the route, and then took my group on what was arguably one of my best rides in 2008. Part of the joy of that particular day was the sense of discovery and the other part was the absolutely kick-ass nature of this treasure of a trail. The only thing it lacks is a little more length.

    I have returned several times and the thrill is always there. That first time I walked quite a bit but I've since returned several times my game on (and flat pedals!) and was able to rock all the tricky spots. But I will never forget that first ride.... we were deep into a Sedona weekend with camping at Chavez Crossing and a few XC rides already under our belts, it was a perfectly beautiful Sedona day, the group of friends were the best around, and that trail called Hangover made it a lifetime memory to be cherished.

    <object width="400" height="302"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2263123&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=ff9933&amp;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=2263123&amp;server=vimeo.com &amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portr ait=0&amp;color=ff9933&amp;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="302"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://vimeo.com/2263123">Sedona Riding</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/durtgurl">DurtGurl</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.
    A perfect complement to mtbbill's vid.
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  55. #55
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    Hummmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    Doc, is your vision for MTB Sedona Utopia best served by making videos and building/riding wherever you want best and jamming it down the land manager's throat? I can't say I disagree with your vision but it didn't work in Marin Co and Mt. Tam. Maybe Whistler is more liberal than San Francisco? But Sedona? A city surrounded by national forest with the USFS managing it like a wilderness area and a large proportion of the citizens composed of retiree's utilizing the trails to get their poodles some exercise.

    Maybe a different approach is needed? Kind or ironic that many of the riders in that video took an entirely different approach to building an awesome trail network in Fruita.
    As one who was on that lovely group ride, this is my .02 Our big group from fruita and other points, a few guys from CA and a few locals...

    1st time i've riden with Bill seems to be a nice guy who loves mtn biking. I for one wasn't aware that the trail was a stach of any sort. Seemed to me at the 2 shops we visted in town were pumped that we were out there...

    I can say after being shown 3 trails out there.... they were all gems I'd be doing everything I could to keep them open and make them legal.

    Bill as I said before great video and nice to ride and hang out with yah!
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

  56. #56
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    MTBBill, and that damn camera. He's trouble, I tell ya.

    Last edited by Aquaholic; 02-04-2009 at 09:32 AM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    I had the pleasure of riding Hangover for the first time in Oct. I did my on-line homework, mapped out my best guess of the route, and then took my group on what was arguably one of my best rides in 2008.
    Here's the secret. Do your homework and ride. Nice work.

    I think all the moaning about someone posting and pointing out the "legality" of the trail does more damage than the actual post. I think 90 percent of the folks viewing this thread wouldn't realize that this is a non-system trail if the naysayers hadn't pointed it out.
    Having said that.... there are routes I have been lucky enough to be invited on that I would never take pictures or videos of or divulge to others...... even if I could find them again. I guess I'm just selfish that way. I figure that's up to the builder/router to decide.

    Great vid Kathleen....and that still is totally kick-butt cool!
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerThenSnot
    As one who was on that lovely group ride, this is my .02 Our big group from fruita and other points, a few guys from CA and a few locals...

    1st time i've riden with Bill seems to be a nice guy who loves mtn biking. I for one wasn't aware that the trail was a stach of any sort. Seemed to me at the 2 shops we visted in town were pumped that we were out there...

    I can say after being shown 3 trails out there.... they were all gems I'd be doing everything I could to keep them open and make them legal.

    Bill as I said before great video and nice to ride and hang out with yah!
    STS, your message posted 6 times in my in-box! Were you on anything other than a fixie for that ride? SS, even maybe geared ( )?
    So it seems to me to be, this thing that I think I see.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    STS, your message posted 6 times in my in-box! Were you on anything other than a fixie for that ride? SS, even maybe geared ( )?
    don't know why it did that?!?!?!

    Yup fixed pretty much 100% of the time.... other then riding repair bikes.... i may take up bmx this spring
    Read my BLOG!

    just a guy who loves bikes and exploring

  60. #60
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    [QUOTE=DurtGurl]I had the pleasure of riding Hangover for the first time in Oct. I did my on-line homework, mapped out my best guess of the route, and then took my group on what was arguably one of my best rides in 2008. Part of the joy of that particular day was the sense of discovery and the other part was the absolutely kick-ass nature of this treasure of a trail. The only thing it lacks is a little more length.

    I have returned several times and the thrill is always there. That first time I walked quite a bit but I've since returned several times my game on (and flat pedals!) and was able to rock all the tricky spots. But I will never forget that first ride.... we were deep into a Sedona weekend with camping at Chavez Crossing and a few XC rides already under our belts, it was a perfectly beautiful Sedona day, the group of friends were the best around, and that trail called Hangover made it a lifetime memory to be cherished.

    QUOTE]

    Hard not to share those wonderful riding experiences and s with the rest of the mountain biking world.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    The reason why this trail is talked about so much is because it is one of the best trails to have ever been found. Tourism in Sedona is up about 2% due to its existence.
    Quoted for hilarity.

  62. #62
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    What helmet cam are you using? The image quality is great!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I am curious if we could ask Mountain Bike Bill to never do a video of a social/non-system trail in the future, if he would agree to that request. What say you Bill?
    Sure you can ask......

    Just so you know, I have a bunch of videos and pictures of really cool trails that the only way you will see them is if you are drinking a beer on the couch at Casa Del Bill. The very next day after Hangover I rode some stuff that was obviously below Radar. I knew it, and the good folks who showed us around made it clear that it was. Don't look for any info on that on my site, it is not there.

    Here are some the things I thought about before posting this video.

    - It is obvious that Sedona has been PRing that trail. It is out in the open, despite it's non-system status. No only online but in the shops as well. It is one thing if you walk into a shop and you know somebody who is hooking you up, but total strangers/tourists are walking into the shops and the goods are given up on this trail.

    - The Forest Service already knows about this trail. The FS knew about this trail before I ever showed up in town. I have heard this from multiple people. One person I heard this from is connected in Sedona and his attitude was, they know about so we will see.

    There is a collective "system" for keeping stuff off the radar in Sedona and I would say it is working. Some of the stuff I have ridden in previous visits and the stuff I rode on Sunday is in that system. What I rode on Saturday (Hangover) is not in that system. Now wither by some active process or a series of leaks, Hangover is not being guarded as a secret in town.

    So even before I showed up in Sedona that weekend, the wheels were already in motion for wither Hangover is going to be shutdown or adopted in the trail system. Didn't Damifino start off in a simliar fashion?

    It is certainly debatable as to wither my video will help or hinder the effort to bring that system into the trail system.

    • One side is that I have over publized this trail to some degree/rate more that what the local bike shops/advocates have been doing so far.
    • The other side is that it may help garner public support for the advocacy battle Sedona will have with this trail.

    I don't see this video being a significant factor on wither this trail stays around or not.

    The bottomline from my prespective is Hangover was out of the bag and the land mangers were aware of it before this video. To quote from The Lord of the Rings "Open War is upon you, wither you would risk it or not". Many folks have said the Forest Service is not going to look the other way so this trail will either be shutdown or brought into the trail system. Sedona is a world class MTB destination that has to offer something for all skill levels, including the more techncial/advanced trails.
    Last edited by mtbbill; 02-04-2009 at 11:47 AM.

  64. #64
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    On notice...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill
    Sure you can ask......
    I'm using this thread to compile a list of people who need a life outside of a public web forum.

    Nice vid Bill. Sedona's on the list of nearby places to go this year.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill

    The bottomline from my prespective is Hangover was out of the bag and the land mangers were aware of it before this video. To quote from The Lord of the Rings "Open War is upon you, wither you would risk it or not". Many folks have said the Forest Service is not going to look the other way so this trail will either be shutdown or brought into the trail system. Sedona is a world class MTB destination that has to offer something for all skill levels, including the more techncial/advanced trails.
    Well said and good discussion.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    I think 90 percent of the folks viewing this thread wouldn't realize that this is a non-system trail if the naysayers hadn't pointed it out.
    Yep.

    Had one ride a while back where we asked someone to not map a route, and he ended up mapping it anyway. That kind of got me down on group-rides. But then again "breaking the trust" can't be blamed on one person, it was my fault for bringing that person on the ride or showing up to that ride to show people the trails.

    I'm not going to try "blow the cover" on trails, but the above is simply what happens, sooner or later. Do your best to not spread the word too far, but don't react suprised when you figure out everyone and their mom knows about it. It was probably at least partially your fault in the end anyway.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill
    Sure you can ask......

    Just so you know, I have a bunch of videos and pictures of really cool trails that the only way you will see them is if you are drinking a beer on the couch at Casa Del Bill. The very next day after Hangover I rode some stuff that was obviously below Radar. I knew it, and the good folks who showed us around made it clear that it was. Don't look for any info on that on my site, it is not there.

    Here are some the things I thought about before posting this video.

    - It is obvious that Sedona has been PRing that trail. It is out in the open, despite it's non-system status. No only online but in the shops as well. It is one thing if you walk into a shop and you know somebody who is hooking you up, but total strangers/tourists are walking into the shops and the goods are given up on this trail.

    - The Forest Service already knows about this trail. The FS knew about this trail before I ever showed up in town. I have heard this from multiple people. One person I heard this from is connected in Sedona and his attitude was, they know about so we will see.

    There is a collective "system" for keeping stuff off the radar in Sedona and I would say it is working. Some of the stuff I have ridden in previous visits and the stuff I rode on Sunday is in that system. What I rode on Saturday (Hangover) is not in that system. Now wither by some active process or a series of leaks, Hangover is not being guarded as a secret in town.

    So even before I showed up in Sedona that weekend, the wheels were already in motion for wither Hangover is going to be shutdown or adopted in the trail system. Didn't Damifino start off in a simliar fashion?

    It is certainly debatable as to wither my video will help or hinder the effort to bring that system into the trail system.

    • One side is that I have over publized this trail to some degree/rate more that what the local bike shops/advocates have been doing so far.
    • The other side is that it may help garner public support for the advocacy battle Sedona will have with this trail.

    I don't see this video being a significant factor on wither this trail stays around or not.

    The bottomline from my prespective is Hangover was out of the bag and the land mangers were aware of it before this video. To quote from The Lord of the Rings "Open War is upon you, wither you would risk it or not". Many folks have said the Forest Service is not going to look the other way so this trail will either be shutdown or brought into the trail system. Sedona is a world class MTB destination that has to offer something for all skill levels, including the more techncial/advanced trails.
    Bill:

    You and I alone will be blamed for the closure of all the fun social trails in Sedona. Now you know how George Bush feels for being the one responsible for destroying the economy.

    The fact that your group was only 18 people who ate, drank, rented lodging, bought gas and would have never come to Sedona if it were not for those cool trails doesn't mean a thing.

    How else is the word gotten out that Sedona is a world class riding destination? Looking forward to watching some vids at the casa some day.

    Doc

  68. #68
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    I'm still shaking from watching that video! One of the best to hit MTBR n a long time thanks for posting. I've ridden Sedona 3 times and have NO DESIRE to ever ride that trail when I return!
    Ride to eat, Eat to ride.

  69. #69
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    Traildoc,

    Just saw your bio. You sound like you've spent a fair amount of time in Whistler - likely hanging in your RV in lot 4, eh? I'm gonna also guess you do a fair bit of building in various parts of Western US and BC......but you're out of commish for a bit now, correct?

    If so, we've met a couple times and have common friends. If not, then I'm waaaaay off base.

    Cheers,
    EB

    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Jayem:

    I couldn't agree with you more. I am curious if we could ask Mountain Bike Bill to never do a video of a social/non-system trail in the future, if he would agree to that request. What say you Bill?

    The reason why this trail is talked about so much is because it is one of the best trails to have ever been found. Tourism in Sedona is up about 2% due to its existence.

    We know that the Forest Service could care less about Sedona's tourism since their efforts aren't judged by how the whole trail system is helping the health of the residents and increases in tourism. They aren't paid to think outside of the box, they are paid to decommission really well thought out and well built trails plus trying to maintain the local system trails.

    Take Whistler for example: they have the best cross-country, all mountain, freeride and downhill trail system in the whole world. They have a local bike club (WORCA http://www.worca.com/itoolkit.asp?pg=2007loonies ) that has over 600 members and the community totally supports mountain biking because it is good for the health of the residents and brings in millions of dollars of tourism dollars.

    Many of the WORCA bike club members are also city employees. The mayor is a bike club member. The head of Parks and Recreation is a bike club member and I am sure several of the City Council members are bike club members.

    Whistler even hired the main social trail builders to help maintain, improve and build new trails in their community. The trail builder, Chris Markel, who built a 19 kilometer social trail, Comfortably Numb aka: Foreplay, did such a good job that he is currently a Whistler employee.

    The oldest member of WORCA is 71 years young and he totally kicks butt on the cross-country race nights once a week during the summer. Attached is a picture of a normal 5 P.M. race turnout for a two hour race. The fire department sponsored the race and led the start of the race with an old fire engine. After the race they sponsored a hamburger barbecue for all the contestants.

    Why Sedona couldn't follow in their footsteps is a mystery to me.

  70. #70
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    Woah! Added to the list of places to ride on our way to SSWC09. I need to get back and spend a solid week in Arizona hitting up Tucson - SoMo - Sedona.

    Anyone want to play tour guide for me? to be paid handsomely in dinner and brews.

    And social/pirate/bootleg trails are the best! We got a fair share here in Santa Cruz and Marin

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by baycat
    Woah! Added to the list of places to ride on our way to SSWC09. I need to get back and spend a solid week in Arizona hitting up Tucson - SoMo - Sedona.

    Anyone want to play tour guide for me? to be paid handsomely in dinner and brews.

    And social/pirate/bootleg trails are the best! We got a fair share here in Santa Cruz and Marin
    Cat:

    Your time is limited in Santa Cruz. Demo is great, but things are getting sketchy at UC and Wilder. Jayem likes to be a tour guide, but he would have to kill you if you told your five buddies about the enjoyable trails to ride here and Prescott.

  72. #72
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    I'm comin'! And I've secured several TG's.

  73. #73
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    Thanks for the tip. Sad to hear about the situation at UCSC, ridden out there the last few weekends and always have a blast on boxes, jugs, and all the others. But I guess time will tell.

    But I am always happy to ride Demo and rip down Braille

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Traildoc,

    Just saw your bio. You sound like you've spent a fair amount of time in Whistler - likely hanging in your RV in lot 4, eh? I'm gonna also guess you do a fair bit of building in various parts of BC ......but you're out of commish for a bit now, correct?

    If so, we've met a couple times and have common friends. If not, then I'm waaaaay off base.

    Cheers,
    EB
    EB:

    I love your bio picture. I only had the nerve to ride that build up once. If we had a trail like Gargamel (Sp?) in Sedona we could also call Sedona a world class downhill destination rather than a world class uphill destination. It is amazing that a city like Whistler would support such a trail, what are they thinking?

    I have been sleeping in parking lot 5 for the last four summers so maybe we could have met in lot 3/4. I don't have many friends though, so I might not be the guy your thinking of.

    Doc

  75. #75
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    EB:

    I love your bio picture. I only had the nerve to ride that build up once. If we had a trail like Gargamel (Sp?) in Sedona we could also call Sedona a world class downhill destination rather than a world class uphill destination. It is amazing that a city like Whistler would support such a trail, what are they thinking?

    I have been sleeping in parking lot 5 for the last four summers so maybe we could have met in lot 3/4. I don't have many friends though, so I might not be the guy your thinking of.

    Doc
    Gargamel is officially "whistler xc".....ha ha. Seriously, they did a couple of Samurai of Singletracks that used that trail and most of those folks were on Chromags or small travel full suspensions. That ladder is no longer.....it was falling apart and is now all rocked in through there. I didn't ride it last summer, but that's what I was told by those in the know.

    Yeah, I'm probably thinking of another person. A friend of mine in Bellingham (Dan W) has a friend that's up in Whistler every summer in his RV and and has built trails in a place or two.....Sedona, Moab, Whistler, Bay Area. No worries.

    Cheers,
    EB

  76. #76
    EDR
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    Would someone please just post a gps tracklog of Hangover already

    EDIT: I think I found one, don't tell anyone...

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Gargamel is officially "whistler xc".....ha ha. Seriously, they did a couple of Samurai of Singletracks that used that trail and most of those folks were on Chromags or small travel full suspensions. That ladder is no longer.....it was falling apart and is now all rocked in through there. I didn't ride it last summer, but that's what I was told by those in the know.

    Yeah, I'm probably thinking of another person. A friend of mine in Bellingham (Dan W) has a friend that's up in Whistler every summer in his RV and and has built trails in a place or two..... Whistler, and Hawaii No worries.

    Cheers,
    EB
    Sorry Eric, sounds like your buddy is kind of a loser living in a parking lot for two months what's that about?

  78. #78
    Over the Hill
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    Not sure when a local rider and map maker added Hangover to his Sedona map, but I know it was many months ago. Where was the outrage when he posted that info on a open website?

    Dean

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by dstepper
    Not sure when a local rider and map maker added Hangover to his Sedona map, but I know it was many months ago. Where was the outrage when he posted that info on a open website?

    Dean

    ..and I'll be sure to quietly thank the one you speak of.

  80. #80
    Just roll it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Sorry Eric, sounds like your buddy is kind of a loser living in a parking lot for two months what's that about?
    Yeah, total loser for sure.

    Can you imagine?

  81. #81
    JMH
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    That was a great vid! I don't normally enjoy the helmet cam vids, but that is some serious equipment and it makes for an enjoyable view.

    JMH

  82. #82
    Over the Hill
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    ..and I'll be sure to quietly thank the one you speak of.

  83. #83
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    HeyBill,

    Great video. Glad you're ok.

    Where's the pics your fellow rider took?

  84. #84
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    HeyBill,

    Great video. Glad you're ok.

    Where's the pics your fellow rider took?

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