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  1. #51
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    The PCT-L is pure comedy. Here's one of the better gems... shows the mindset of these folks, which is crazy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Big news: Feds to consider allowing bikes on PCT-pctl-awesome.jpg  

    Last edited by Czar Chasm; 10-10-2012 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #52
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    In some parts, the Forest Service relies on mountain bikers to maintain the Perfect Cycling Trail. When was the last time you saw hikers and equestrians lending a hand. Not around here. I'd even finally pay for the double tax called the "Adventure Pass" to sport my mistress in public.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
    The PCT-L is pure comedy. Here's one of the better gems... shows the mindset of these folks, which is crazy
    Crazy? Are you kidding? Take a walk in their shoes.
    Hike all your life, reach the age of 40, discover all your favorite local hiking trails are now allowing mountain bikes, get run off the trail countless times and see what you'd have to say if you were them.
    I'd have some 'crazy' **** to say about mountain bikers.

    There isn't some 1% of us tarnishing our reputation. It's a much larger percent than that.

    Mountain bikers make up for a lot of trail stewardship, but that's a lasting impression that doesn't ward off the first impression that many experience as they get dusted when they step off the side of the trail to yield.

    To those of you too immature to acknowledge the impression that some mountain bikers give off, grow up. I'm not saying any of you are one of them, but seriously, we impress some and piss off other's. If you fail to acknowledge that we have confliction with and have hurt the feelings of other user groups, it looks really bad for the rest of us when you can't see through someone else's eyes for a minute. There isn't any right or wrong on this issue, it's a conflict of interest.
    Last edited by ehigh; 10-11-2012 at 07:27 PM.

  4. #54
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    Well yeah, if I got to play golf on a private golf course all my life, and there were usually only 2 other golfers somewhere else on the course, then suddenly I find out I might have to share my golf course with several other foursomes... some of which might drive their carts past the "no carts beyond here" signs, might make me wait at the tee box for my shot(!), might rudely demand to play through, or might possibly hit/injure me with their golf ball, hit from a different fairway, I'd be upset too! I want my golf course private, and don't want to share it with others... especially if they dress funny too.

    If backpacking was the most important thing in my life, I'd fight for exclusion too. And I'd fight dirty as well. ("Phony photo-ops of fake trail maintenance"???). There... I put myself in their shoes

    The hiking contingent essentially says "you have enough bike trails, leave this one for us." I say "You're incorrect about "enough"... and you've had this one to yourselves for 24 years... plus you also have all the Wilderness Areas and National Parks already (not to mention regional areas/trails). Time to share."

    If bicycles weren't unjustly banned in '88, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the rule changes, we won't be having this discussion in 2030. The PCT will not die. Thru-hikers won't disappear.

    I've come across more than 50 people in my years of exploring the PCT on a bicycle. 1 person went ape$hit, a couple scoldings, several dirty looks, and tons of friendly conversations with happy hikers and a few equestrians. Hikers are usually just happy to see someone, especially someone that provides trail info, maybe some water, and often times a chocolate chip cookie. Nobody I've come across has ever been forced off the trail, had to jump off the trail, or been injured... well, the ape$hit guy might have been emotionally injured from yelling and screaming at a friendly person walking a bike on dirt.

  5. #55
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    Please feel free to voice your opinions regarding bikes on the PCT to our hiker friends. I encourage you to be civil and show folks how friendly their future trail-mates can be. Consider this to be a reciprocal link.

    http://www.facebook.com/SavethePCT

  6. #56
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    I smell Revolution around the corner.

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  7. #57
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    From a PCT hiker's perspective

    Hi all,

    While I don't expect to convince you that the PCT hiker is right, I will give you my perspective as a PCT thru-hiker and hopefully convince you that our reasoning is not malicious or intended to keep the trail exclusive. I hiked the entire PCT in 2007, I have volunteered on trail maintenance crews, and my wife is on a local chapter of the PCTA.

    I think our set of arguments against allowing bikers on the PCT come down to one common factor: the speed disparity between hikers and bikers. Speed disparity comes through in each of the following arguments:

    -"Loss of the wilderness feel" Let's say for the sake of simplicity that mountain bikers on average travel twice the speed of hikers. On a hiker-only trail, two people traveling by foot can hike for an entire day in the same direction, separated by as little as a half-mile, and never see each other. The same separation is never maintained when the person behind is traveling by bike.

    -"Safety/Annoyance" I frequently hike on multi-use trails near my home that are major mountain biking destinations, and find that it's a very common occurrence to have bikers come from behind on downhills at high speeds. I am in almost every occasion the one who is must move from the trail (sometimes to avoid being hit). It could be just my human nature to avoid fast moving objects. But in many cases, the biker does not even announce their approach. I don't think they're doing this out of neglect or for mean-spirited reasons; it's just the nature of the situation: the biker is moving fast, flying around a corner, and in many cases just does not have the time to give enough forewarning. Regardless of the reasoning, this can be annoying, particularly in the near-miss cases, and this effect is amplified on narrow trails like the PCT.

    -"Trail Damage" I am no physicist, but I know that faster things move more dirt. Fast rivers move more sediment, hard winds blow more dust. Bikers move faster than hikers, and skid, break, and jump to avoid obstacles. These things damage trails. Whereas I can understand bikers thinking of the PCT as "any old trail", it's not. It actually ties an entire community together. There are numerous volunteers that work hard all summer to keep up with the current level of trail maintenance (fallen logs, drainage,..), and in many cases they can't keep up. And the people that tend to volunteer are the people who have thru-hiked, intend to thru-hike, or are connected to a thru-hiker. The volunteers TEND not to be the casual hikers who just happen upon the PCT for a weekend. And since bikers will likely never be able to "thru-bike" the PCT (Wilderness act), they are less likely to join that community and feel the community obligation to the trail. Thus by introducing a new group who inflicts more damage on average per user, we should expect that the PCT will be in much worse shape.

    Thank you for reading, and see you on the trails,
    Nick

  8. #58
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    Hi, Nick -- Thank you for taking the time to post these arguments. I for one am trying to grasp and understand the antibicycle hikers' mindset and point of view. It helps that I've backpacked about 125 miles of the PCT. The best way to reach a satisfactory outcome is for people to try to be as open-minded as possible.

  9. #59
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    Hi Nick,

    I for one appreciate your honesty and civility. While I don't necessarily agree with you on all your points, I respect you for coming here, being polite and expressing your point of view in a calm and rational manner. Kudo's to you.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  10. #60
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    It looked like that PCT-L guy does not know that mountain bikes dont have motors. This seems obvious to us but many people think that MX bikes off road are mountain bikes. Why are the hikers rights more important than bikers rights. As I understand it you are asking for bikes to be allowed back, not allowed for the first time. If you have been taking something you have no moral right to and that opportunity dries up you can be pissed off but that doesnt mean you ever had a right to it. It sounds like hikers are just annoyed that they have to give up something they had no right to in the first place.Like using a tax loophole for years and then finding the law has changed. They have a right to go slow we have a right to go fast (remaining safe of course). Any argument about trail damage is ridiculous if they allow horses.

  11. #61
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    Their mentality is absurd and it does make them appear crazy. Look at how they equate us to motorcycles. Look how they try to use the Mike Vandeman arguments about trail damage while they accept pack animals and horses even though it's beyond obvious hiking on any heavily used wilderness trail that they cause major amounts of damage. It's simply a matter of ignoring reality because it doesn't suit your own self interests.

    I personally have little to no interest in riding over crowded trails like the PCT. In Eastern WA/North ID we ride trails with horses, hikers, and even motorcycles all on the same trail and maybe 1% of them act like these people do. Most of the PCT in my home state is in wilderness anyway. But what interests me most about this is seeing how it plays out, because I think it could set an example for future trail access decisions.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehigh View Post
    Hike all your life, reach the age of 40, discover all your favorite local hiking trails are now allowing mountain bikes, get run off the trail countless times and see what you'd have to say if you were them.
    The thing is though, most people learn about the concept of sharing before they turn 40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerfectZero View Post
    The thing is though, most people learn about the concept of sharing before they turn 40.
    I think that your view of this world is dangerously optimistic then. Call me a pessimist, but these people like real foot path singletrack, not mountain bike singletrack. And they don't want to lose that. I wouldn't either.

  14. #64
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    lol "dangerously" optimistic.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelforanegg View Post
    Hi all,

    While I don't expect to convince you that the PCT hiker is right, I will give you my perspective as a PCT thru-hiker and hopefully convince you that our reasoning is not malicious or intended to keep the trail exclusive. I hiked the entire PCT in 2007, I have volunteered on trail maintenance crews, and my wife is on a local chapter of the PCTA.
    Small world Nick! My wife and I thru hiked the PCT in 07 too. What was your trail name?

    I'm conflicted about this, honestly, since I do a lot of hiking and started mountain biking a couple years ago. I can see the points of both sides, and have been on both sides at some point. I think it is important for everybody to listen and for each side not to dismiss the other side's arguments without trying to understand them.

    I agree with most of Nick's point and would like to expand on them from my experience. We encountered mountain bikers a couple times on the trip. Some were good, some were bad.

    Many parts of the trail are quite exposed and could be extremely dangerous for hikers/bikers to encounter each other. We encountered one group as they came from behind and they had to follow us for almost a mile before it was safe to pass. They were fortunately the good ones.

    We encountered another group later which were quite antagonistic after they were told bikes were not allowed on the PCT. Fortunately it was not as dangerous a location and they rode around us quickly after giving us a piece of their mind.

    Everyone should remember that compared to bikes, hikers and horses move slow. Encounters between groups of hikers, and between hikers and horses were not a surprise (unlike the bikes). I spent a significant amount of time hiking "in the zone" when I would have reacted quite slowly to the arrival of a mountain bike. The ability to do that was part of the beauty of the PCT. Most of the people I hiked with and spoke with enjoy being away from it all.

    Please also consider that most hikers will probably not be looking out for them. And that in an encounter between a hiker and a biker, the hiker will probably lose. Similar to how between a biker and a car, the biker will lose. I'm sure most bicyclists that have ridden on the road have experienced a jerk in a car who drives too close or cuts you off. To the driver in the car it's no big deal, but to you the cyclist, it's much more serious since it can result in your death. Similar thing with hikers and bikers.

    I'm not sure every biker really understands that. I know some of the people I've ridden with, or encountered on the trails do not. They don't understand what it is like to have a bike come out of nowhere on a scary piece of trail. The experience level of the hikers on the trails vary greatly too. You have the hard-core Triple Crowners as well as the section hikers, weekend warriors and families with kids.

    On the other side, I'm not sure I completely buy the trail damage argument. At least the physical part (the volunteering part makes sense). Portions of the trail in Oregon and Washington, as well as multiple campsites, were in horrible condition due to the combination of rain and horses, and horses are allowed on the PCT. There are irresponsible people everywhere.

    I think the "loss of wilderness feel" is a big factor in this. If you have never been out on a long hike, you might not understand what the hikers are concerned about. I'm not sure I am able to explain that without this turning into a novel.

    That all said, I'm not sure where I sit on the issue of bikes on the PCT, but if the policy is changed, it hope it is done intelligently with minimal impact to the current users. As Nick said, the PCT is not "any old trail." It is unique and I feel lucky that it was around for me to have experienced it.

    IMO, the mountain bike community should step up and try to show what they can contribute to the PCT and how they can help make it better, rather than just argue that it is their "right" to bike there.

    Btw, some of the mountain bikers should come experience the hiking side and the PCT community. It's amazing!

    -Patrick

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    If I read one more post (here or on FB) about "could be injured" or "could die" , I might barf. I know it's just a tactic, but puh-leez. It's gotten old. I don't believe there is a single person out enjoying a trail on wheels, foot, or hooves that's looking to hurt another person. Worried about being injured or dying? Stay home!

    Some thoughtful points above, Patrick... although I don't believe there is a single thing the mountain biking community can say or do that would change the mindset of 99.7% of the vocal PCT hikers/equestrians. I could offer a $10M donation and I'm sure they'd turn it down if it meant letting me ride on the PCT one time.

    And for the "jerks" that get "caught" riding on the PCT... if it were legal, there wouldn't be f-bomb confrontations where holier-than-thou hikers try and educate non-compliant riders on the rules. There might actually be more kinship and dialogue... but I guess that spoils the hiker's wilderness experience. Oh well.

  17. #67
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    The Official stance of the PCTA (as of today):

    The PCTA has issued this response:

    Pacific Crest Trail Association

    Response to inquiries about mountain bikes and the PCT

    10/11/12

    To our members and supporters:

    ...
    We are receiving many inquiries from you about information being posted online about mountain bikes and the PCT. We want to assure you that we are well aware of this growing campaign to open the PCT to bicycles. We are monitoring the decision-making process and we are working on a strategy to thoughtfully address this issue.

    The US Forest Service has been contacted by a group of citizens requesting a review of the bicycle prohibition but has not made a decision regarding a review process. Public notification and an environmental analysis would have to take place before any change in the bicycle prohibition would be considered.

    The Pacific Crest Trail Association opposes bicycle use on the trail. We will be reaching out to all of you when we know more about the process and what influence we, as hikers and equestrians, can have. We will keep you informed of our progress and your potential role in this important matter for the PCT.

    Thank you for your support of the PCTA and for all you do for the trail.

    - Liz Bergeron, PCTA Executive Director and CEO
    LBergeron@pcta.org
    Phone: 916-285-1846

    If you do contact please be civil/nice. Many of these people have it deeply ingrained that MTB'rs are bad, and riding is bad....based on nothing more than anecdotes and 'feelings'.

    If it is possible to change their views it would benefit all involved.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by triplep View Post
    IMO, the mountain bike community should step up and try to show what they can contribute to the PCT and how they can help make it better, rather than just argue that it is their "right" to bike there
    I couldn't have said it better. This is what we need to to AS A COMMUNITY, and I believe without a shadow of doubt that we can contribute in a mutually beneficial way.

    Cheers to you kind soul . . . cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    If I read one more post (here or on FB) about "could be injured" or "could die" , I might barf. I know it's just a tactic, but puh-leez. It's gotten old. I don't believe there is a single person out enjoying a trail on wheels, foot, or hooves that's looking to hurt another person. Worried about being injured or dying? Stay home!
    IMO, it is one thing to get injured doing something dangerous because you do something dumb yourself, and another thing because somebody else does it to you. People often do things that endanger others not because of malice, but because of negligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Some thoughtful points above, Patrick... although I don't believe there is a single thing the mountain biking community can say or do that would change the mindset of 99.7% of the vocal PCT hikers/equestrians. I could offer a $10M donation and I'm sure they'd turn it down if it meant letting me ride on the PCT one time.
    Maybe there isn't a way to change the mindset of the vocal community. But the MTB community looking to increase their access, and thus I believe it is the responsibility of the MTB community to address the concerns of the current users. Addressing it with dismissiveness and contempt will only hurt matters. However, by talking in a constructive, understanding way, you might sway the people who don't have a strong opinion, and that probably silently make up the majority of the PCT community.

    There was a similar situation in MA where I live with the Fells. And even though there were very vocal opponents, a good resolution was arrived at after the mess. Change can happen. It might not satisfy everybody. And it might not happen tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    And for the "jerks" that get "caught" riding on the PCT... if it were legal, there wouldn't be f-bomb confrontations where holier-than-thou hikers try and educate non-compliant riders on the rules. There might actually be more kinship and dialogue... but I guess that spoils the hiker's wilderness experience. Oh well.
    You could argue that there would be more kinship and dialog if the mountain bikers didn't break the law while simultaneously advocating their view.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    The Official stance of the PCTA (as of today):


    LBergeron@pcta.org
    Phone: 916-285-1846

    If you do contact please be civil/nice. Many of these people have it deeply ingrained that MTB'rs are bad, and riding is bad....based on nothing more than anecdotes and 'feelings'.

    If it is possible to change their views it would benefit all involved.
    I think a good strategy is to ask them how they plan on adapting, if the USFS allows bikes on the PCT. Once they start thinking about potentially increasing membership from welcoming mtn bikers, their tune might change. Getting support from outside the mtb community would be awesome.

    It's a better strategy than relying on a community that's has an image created from the racing scene, the mtb films, the news of the "delinquencies" like poaching trails and unauthorized trail building, calling in airlifts off the trail greatly overshadowing the "good" or so-called "true" image people think mtbing has. Also a better strategy than trying to get them to give reasons why they oppose us and trying to counter them.

    If we agree to support PCTA, and they support us, it could lead to a favorable outcome in the USFS's decision. Maybe it'll even lead to a start of good relationship with "them" (the hikers and equestrians) which can remedy all sorts of problems, even if they are simply "misunderstandings".
    Last edited by Varaxis; 10-11-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    I think a good strategy is to ask them how they plan on adapting, if the USFS allows bikes on the PCT. Once they start thinking about potentially increasing membership from welcoming mtn bikers, their tune might change. Getting support from outside the mtb community would be awesome.

    It's a better strategy than relying on a community that's has an image created from the racing scene, the mtb films, the news of the "delinquencies" like poaching trails and unauthorized trail building, calling in airlifts off the trail greatly overshadowing the "good" or so-called "true" image people think mtbing has. Also a better strategy than trying to get them to give reasons why they oppose us and trying to counter them.

    If we agree to support PCTA, and they support us, it could lead to a favorable outcome in the USFS's decision. Maybe it'll even lead to a start of good relationship with "them" (the hikers and equestrians) which can remedy all sorts of problems, even if they are simply "misunderstandings".
    I agree with much of what you're saying about the right approach to the skeptics and I for one am going to try to take that approach. I also completely agree with you that the gonzo image that comes from some advertising, YouTube posts, racing flyers, and the like makes gaining access to trails harder. That's true even if the mountain bike skeptics overreact to those things, because it's kind of understandable that they do, given their lack of knowledge about riding a bicycle on a trail. SUV manufacturers may run ads showing their vehicles rampaging through pristine landscapes, spraying water and mud and roaring through streambeds, but most people understand that only 1 in 100,000 vehicle owners drives that way. There's no similar familiarity with how mountain bikes are actually used, so displays of gonzo riding hurt.

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    The research is out there and gets presented to the hiking groups and land managers on a regular basis showing that mt bikes are far less damaging to the trail that horses, and land managers are getting it. That issue is slowly becoming less of an impediment to access than other issues

    The biggest one that isn't going away is the relative speed difference issue. I would not go so far as to say that car:bike::bike:hiker, but bike>>>horse>hiker in the speed department and there is no fundamental truth that will change that. But that does not mean it cannot be managed through smart trail design and user management. Sure, the whole trail will not be appropriate for bikes. But there are segments that are now and segments that could be with minor work.

    There is growing demand for bikepacking routes. Bikepackers use a trail differently than the weekend warrior. Just like backpackers use a trail differently than trail runners. And backpackers and bikepackers use trails more similarly to each other. There should be cameraderie there.

    And yet opportunities for bikepacking are hard to come by. People in some states have to travel a very long way just to find a suitable route. Opening enough segments of the PCT to bikes to allow bikepackers to piece together another long route would be quite the resource. Even if those PCT segments had to be linked to other existing mtb trails to connect them and bypass no bike zones like Wildernesses and other spots.

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    Good points, NateHawk.

    I'd point out that, almost invariably when mountain bikers ask for access to an existing trail, the current users predict doom. Then, almost invariably, when the land manager allows mountain bikes to use that trail, everything turns out to be fine and nothing is heard from anyone again. The stock response to this regular result from the naysayers is that mountain bikers have driven all other users away, but they've never come up with any evidence for this assertion.

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    Regarding both bikepacking and day rides: one thing that would be very helpful would be for people to post the opportunities in their area that would open up if access were legalized. What good rides would become available that weren't before? What out-and-back rides could become loops? And, if you feel like being candid, what problems could arise from mountain bike use on those trail miles, and how could any such problems be solved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke View Post
    Regarding both bikepacking and day rides: one thing that would be very helpful would be for people to post the opportunities in their area that would open up if access were legalized. What good rides would become available that weren't before? What out-and-back rides could become loops? And, if you feel like being candid, what problems could arise from mountain bike use on those trail miles, and how could any such problems be solved?
    Great idea.
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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    Great idea.
    Agreed . . . and to add to that, if someone were willing to generate MAPS of those potential trails, that would be AWESOME.

    Public Request: I need maps, pictures, etc. of people biking, doing trail maintenance, etc. for our website. Please provide pictures to which YOU own the rights to, or point me in the direction of whom I can request rights from. By posting your pictures here, you acknowledge the intended use as for publication via a website affiliated with the PCT Reassessment Initiative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    This is a key argument point. All studies to date have indicated that horses have more, or at least the same, impact as mountain bikes.
    Horses have a far larger impact on the environment, they have to be carefully fed certified weed free hay so their **** cannot spread weeds. Their hair of course will hold onto seeds, their footprints alone cause far more trail damage and of course they are noisier than a MTN bike unless you have wet squeaking brakes

    Its a non issue however, to even sit and have to fight for such a wonderful silent sport such as mtn biking to be allowed onto the peoples land is simply amazing.
    I certainly hope this passes, and it should not take any real thought to let it.

  28. #78
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    Just another thought in case of so much opposition arises that failure appears eminent, the MTBers could offer a compromise of designating even days open to mountain bikes and odd days open to hikers/horses only. We have some trails in Salt Lake City set up like that. The benefit for us (besides gaining access to trails that might not have otherwise allowed bikes) is that on those even days when bikes are allowed, dogs MUST BE ON A LEASH. This also helps reduce trail conflicts. On hiker-only days, dogs can be off leash.
    Obviously full time access would be better, but sometimes baby steps are a good start.


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    My Vasque Clarion's have a wider and more aggressive tread than my mtb tires. Each boot will hit the trail in two different spots. If I use a walking stick or poles, they will contact the trail in 1 or 2 additional spots. That means I am contacting the trail in 3 or 4 different spots within a few feet. On my bike the two contacts are in the same spot. On a multi day trip my pack usually weighs more than my bike, so size and weight of a bike itself is not really an issue in regards to the trail.

    IMO, the real issue is elitist attitudes. If all outdoor enthusiasts were courteous and watched out for each other, there would be no problem. However, too many people/groups have a hard-on about how great they are compared to everybody else. We are out there for the same experience, but we all just do it in different ways.

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    Where I ride, there are very few multi-use trails. Most parks have multi-use "two-track" for the vehicles which help with trail maintenance, and hikers, equestrians, and mountain bikers each have their own designated trails. I occasionally come across people hiking the MTB trails and I usually warn them to keep eyes and ears open for approaching bikes as riders won't be expecting to encounter them. Other than that, I actually encourage them to hike or run the bike trails as they are much more challenging than the hiking-only trails.

    There was a recent mass lay-off of USFS personnel, everywhere except the most popular parks for mountain biking. The bikers contribute 90%+ of the income to the park, they designed, created, and maintain the trail system. The rangers maintain the hiking and horse trails because neither of those user groups do any maintenance at all. Other areas of the state thinking about giving trail access to bikers talk to Alafia River State Park rangers about their experience working with the SWAMP club as it has become a model of success.

    SWAMP maintains 4 trail systems, by the way. They rotate trail maintenance on Saturdays and hold club rides on Sundays.
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    Interesting, I hope you achieve your goal!

  32. #82
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    UPDATE: The Pacific Crest Trail Reassessment Initiative website is now LIVE! Please visit, explore and show your support by leaving a comment!

    Sharing the Pacific Crest Trail
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  33. #83
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    Hopefully some down only signs can be added to the trails. There are some great ridge lines.

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    I was just thinking about my experiences with cycling The Arizona Trail. The AZ trail is around 700 miles long, I believe, and traverses Arizona from the Mexican border all the way up to the south rim of the Grand Canyon. Over the years, I've ridden most of it. It's very similar to the PCT in many ways.....it crosses all kinds of terrain, and for the most part it is singletrack. It's much shorter than the PCT, but aside from that, lots of similarities, and traffic on it, whether foot, hoof, or soft-rubber air-filled tire traffic, is very low in general. Just like the PCT in that respect.

    The major way it DOES differ from the PCT is that right from the get-go, the AZ trail has always been open to ALL non-motorized users. And I gotta say, that for all of Arizona's boneheaded politics (IMO) I have never encountered a hiker on this trail, or a horse person, who acted like they didn't approve of me being there. In fact, everybody I encountered seemed to be quite friendly to me. One day, the only person I saw for an entire stretch of the trail , from Lake Mary down past Mormon Lake, was a guy who kinda looked like Osama bin Laden! He turned out to be a Sikh, not a Muslim, but he also turned out to be a real friendly guy. He was hiking north, I was riding south. He gave me all kinds of useful info on the trail, and on different segments of the trail....he's hiked the whole route at least once.

    In all, my experience with other kinds of trail users on the AZ trail was completely, 100%, positive.
    Only here, in CA, do I encounter this highly divisive, possessive attitude towards a public trail on public land used by members of the .....Public.

    If anything, people I encountered on the AZ trail were concerned about MY safety, telling me about upcoming obstacles, the size of their mountain lions, etc.... Imagine that!

    So, I think that the attitudes of those opposing cycling on the PCT are to a large extent supported by ideological-fueled agendas, which is sad, because when I talk to these people, I find that I share a love for the land, and for nature, and also have a shared value for solitude and the benefit of communing with nature via a solo ride on the trail, that matches their love of hiking the same surface.

    It's a damn shame that the 'anti's' are so entrenched in their beliefs, their ideological line in the sand, that they feel entirely comfortable with what amounts to denying me the equal right to enjoy the trail, in my way. I sense that in so many ways, these hiker folk are otherwise entirely decent, reasonable people, and most of the horse-folk are, as well.

    So, I'm optimistic about this issue. Call me a hopeless romantic, but I think that, like Rodney King, (God bless that poor tortured soul) we CAN all get along. It's just gonna take some work, and a bit of 'Tough Love', on our part, both towards the haters and also towards our own kind who are bent on bullying other users.

    Sorry for the run-on, rantlike statement. I'll try not to let it happen again!

    Oh yeah, and I wanted to mention, that my bikes all have a really nice-sounding, 'mellifluous' two-tone brass bell. Coming up behind a hiker or equestrian, it never fails to deraw a smile, even from the 'haters'. Although in their case the smile is a fleeting one, quickly suppressed, and replaced with the requisite, dissaproving frown.

    Oh yeah....one other thing. Bells are USELESS in the face of an I-pod wearer. They couldn't hear a rattler if they were about to step on it this their ear buds firmly in place!
    Last edited by Old Ray; 10-25-2012 at 12:15 AM.

  35. #85
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    Why apologize? Input like this - especially of an experiential nature - is invaluable.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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    nice

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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    Why apologize? Input like this - especially of an experiential nature - is invaluable.
    Thank you, secret agent man....do you think that post would be helpful if I put it up on the PCT comments page? My previous post there was a wee, tad bit in-their-face.

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    Hi, Ray — That's an excellent comment about the Arizona trail. Yes, put it on the PCT comments page. And the moderator of the sharing the PCT Facebook page would like to make it the highlight there for today too, if that's OK with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke View Post
    Hi, Ray — That's an excellent comment about the Arizona trail. Yes, put it on the PCT comments page. And the moderator of the sharing the PCT Facebook page would like to make it the highlight there for today too, if that's OK with you.
    That's totally OK with me. anything that will help.

  40. #90
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    I'll be a bad influence and donate time and my own money in sustainment of the PCT in northern NM that would allow cyclists access on the trail.

    Area is perfect for cycling and very remote to access on foot. If one could bikepack in the area it would be perfect. My daughter is almost old enough where she could ride with us (without gear) to make it a perfect family trip

  41. #91
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    Crux, do you mean the CDNST? The PCT runs through Washington, Oregon, and California.

    If you do mean the CDNST, what's it like? Do you mean south of Cumbres Pass? I've ridden it north of Cumbres Pass. It's fantastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imtnbke View Post
    Crux, do you mean the CDNST? The PCT runs through Washington, Oregon, and California.

    If you do mean the CDNST, what's it like? Do you mean south of Cumbres Pass? I've ridden it north of Cumbres Pass. It's fantastic.
    I'm thinking south of Cumbres Pass. East of Cuba NM there are quite a bit of trails there and I think your right I confused PCT for CDNST. Currently there is a section of trail that is prime for cycling yet the letter of the law on the trail is anything with a wheel is not allowed.

    Trail sign specifically call out wheelbarrows, trailers and wheelchairs as well from entering the area. Don't know how the last one is quite legal and wish I had a camera at the time taking a photo of the sign. Wonder how the wilderness act views individuals with a disability from entering the area. Not asking we pave the woods, but if someone is disabled and inclined of entering wilderness areas I don't feel as if they should be faced with a sign indicating they are not welcome.

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    Crux, that's a long story. The Forest Service's Wilderness rules are nonsensical, counterproductive, and arguably in violation of the congressionally enacted Wilderness Act of 1964, which was passed by a Congress that wanted people to get outdoor exercise and signed by President Johnson, who made statements during his presidency about his appreciation for bicycles. Check out this website. It explains a lot.

    Wilderness and bicycling issues, philosophy, and advocacy

    Wheelchairs, BTW, are allowed in Wilderness, but that's a more recent law and maybe the FS hasn't gotten around to changing the sign.

  44. #94
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    OK, to reiterate a post I did in the Washington forum.... and a follow up here....

    Google Earth shapefiles from Wilderness.net + PCT trail file from Forest Service

    And when you put them all together you get a 7MB KMZ here. It's too large to load into Google Maps (probably because it includes the entire PCT) but that gives y'all the tools to start really drilling into this sucker. Most of Washington state is obviously off-limits, but there are some interesting (albeit shortish) possibilities south of I90.
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  45. #95
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    Thanks, Slow . . . . you are right about the wilderness portions. We've held off on posting maps of "the possibilities" for now though for a few particular reasons. Send me a PM if you want to know more.

    Also note: People who are interested in the PCT and want to be kept abreast of information can post here about joining the PCT group on here. There's a private social group that is invite only (PM CHUM for permission) where we can discuss, argue, ***** and moan all we want without fear of scrutiny from the opposition.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  46. #96
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    Great observation, sirvalve. That's the kind of thing the Forest Service will benefit from hearing when the public comment and rulemaking process gears up. We still anticipate it happening next spring—not that many months away now.

    As always, we invite people to check out our website:

    Sharing the Pacific Crest TrailHome » Sharing the Pacific Crest Trail

    and our Facebook page:

    www.facebook.com/sharingthepct

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    Buy ticket 5 dollars

    Like entrance at Acadia national park , 5 dollars each hike or bike

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maurizio View Post
    Like entrance at Acadia national park , 5 dollars each hike or bike
    We've thought of this idea, however, its my understanding that such fees actually CREATE a headache for the Administration in charge because its now a program that they have to implement, facilitate, enforce and monitor . . . in a system that is already low on resources. Many times the fees collected are simply directed in an loop that perpetuates the program itself without any real benefit.

    Plus then there's the whole issue of "Double taxation" . . . . take a look at the recently abandoned Adventure Pass program.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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    What about proposing seasonal-use guidelines? I believe most thru-hikers start at the Mexico border in April, and make their way north as summer unfolds. At least for the So-Cal region south of Kennedy meadows, bikers allowed June through Feb./March, so they are not "interfering" during the heavy hiker traffic times. Of course, the downside of this would be riding in the hot desert in summer, which ain't so fun....

    sorry if this has already been mentioned, I was skimming to catch up on the post.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3blackbikes View Post
    What about proposing seasonal-use guidelines? I believe most thru-hikers start at the Mexico border in April, and make their way north as summer unfolds. At least for the So-Cal region south of Kennedy meadows, bikers allowed June through Feb./March, so they are not "interfering" during the heavy hiker traffic times. Of course, the downside of this would be riding in the hot desert in summer, which ain't so fun....

    sorry if this has already been mentioned, I was skimming to catch up on the post.
    No worries man. Any and all ideas are welcome.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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