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  1. #1
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    Who destroyed the one somewhat challenging section on the DRT and other Bend trails?

    Rode the river trail yesterday for the first time of the season and was very disappointed to see that someone had filled in a rooty rocky section of trail just below Dillon Falls. Does anyone know who is responsible? Was this done under any authority? Or was this just one selfish rider who could not tolerate having to walk for 10 feet over the course of a 15 mile trail so others who enjoy a challenge could continue to do so. I understand the nature of the DRT but whats next? Are we going to see jackhammers out removing the rock near lava island and meadow camp? Year after year I watch challenging sections of our trail be removed to increase "flow" or some other BS (COD is a prime example). You could literally ride a hundred miles around Bend and never encounter a single technical section if you wanted. Why is there an assault on the few rocks and roots we have to make things interesting. Riders in Bend are a diverse group and I see the trails becoming more and more similar every year. Please stop neutering our trails. I attend several work parties with COTA each year and have been instructed to remove every root and rock in sight. I have begrudgingly obliged because the supervisors have obviously put in more work than I have but I am wondering if people like myself have a voice on the COTA board. We are building and maintaining mountain bike trails right?

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    It is sad that COTA is going the direction of everything "freeride" ( wide swoopy trails) which is a shame. I thought that was what Funner and Tildy Winks was all about but it seems to be carrying over to all trails. Bend Parks and Rec is doing the same with the hiking trails around town. Filling in and smoothing out. As far as a voice you could go to the meetings. Last Thursday of every month.

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    First off, whining and complaining in an internet forum isn't going to get you anywhere, I suggest you do as Metal suggested and bring your frustrations up at the next COTA monthly member meeting. Check COTA's website for all the details.

    While I can't speak of the COTA work parties you went on where you were instructed to remove every rock and root in sight, but generally speaking this is not COTA's policy. Maybe this was more specific to the trails you were working on. The accepted rule of thumb for rocks is that if they move, they get taken out, otherwise they are just going to eventually get kicked up and knocked out by someone riding over them with the potential of the rocks damaging someones bike or person. Then we are going to have someone else on here whining about his/her damaged bike/body and why COTA didn't remove that rock!

    Regarding both of your comments regarding your "voice" or the "direction" of the trails, COTA just like the rest of the World is run by the people that show up, and not just to a few work parties a year, but who continually show up and put in hundreds of hours each year so you can go ride trails free of charge. Just like the bikes we ride today are different (better) than those of past, so are the trails, call it progression, evolution whatever you want to call it, its not going to stop.

    Furthermore COTA is entirely volunteer driven, they do not get paid anything to build or maintain the trails other than the satisfaction of being able to enjoy them, so instead of whining and complaining maybe you all should be thankful that you have hundreds of miles of trails to ride, and go ride your bikes.

    Peace,
    Joe

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    I think the "freeride" comment is a lot off-base. I don't think the OP was intended to say that the trails were becoming "freeride," he was saying they were being dumbed down. I tend to agree COD below the rim rock is messed up. The lines are all wonky, it should have never been touched. That bypass section on COD is rad though.

    My guess is that the people don't like tiddly, funner, whoops because they lack the skills and it's easier to complain about those damn freeriders than trying something new. There's enough trails for everyone to ride what they like. Harden up.

  5. #5
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    The Deschutes River Trail is not maintained by COTA. COTA might be asked to come in and help with a downed tree now and then, but that is about it. The Deschutes River Trail is a designated hiking trail and is maintained to be in great condition for hikers. The actual biking trail is 10 yards up from the river and at times is shared with a horse path.

    Your voice is always important and deserved to be heard. Going to the monthly meetings and discussing your concerns is a great idea. The next monthly meeting is April 25th from 7:00 to 8:00pm at Brooks Resources, 409 NW Franklin Ave.
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  6. #6
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    Thoughts...

    COTA doesn't play a role in the maintenance of the DRT, and I've heard of no COTA work on DRT this season or over the winter. I believe the section in question is maintained by CORK (runners) they do a great job of maintaining the DRT and North Fork trails for their intended multi-user designation. COTA appreciates their efforts.

    Some positive and negative reviews of actual COTA work. We do our best to log all our work hours on our website. Not every thing done in the forest is under our guidance obviously. We aim to please of course, we realize we're not going to please a 100% but the goal is to maintain the trails to their intended usage.

    The COTA board, our crew leaders and the adopters are a very diverse group of rider types and maintain the trails for what they want to ride. Whoops and T'winks of course are going to be maintained for different rider and experience than say Farewell or Helipad. COTA will encourage adopters to address maintenance issues when user-based erosion or water-based erosion begins to change the character of the trail. This is obviously subjective, but case for doing nothing typically parallels the attitudes that fear change. We do not make changes to a trail without careful thought and planning.

    The COTA board is guided by our mission of trail stewardship which is managing a trail for its intended use and experience. Advocating for no change is not really maintaining no change, at some point it no longer becomes a trail and just becomes a blown out road. We are grateful to live in an area with such a tradition of stewardship. As a direct result of COTA's efforts many of us moved here and now we are enjoying our "first-world problem" of whether too much trail work was done. Love Bend.

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    I have nothing but respect for those can dedicate countless hours to trail maintenance and building. The 3 or 4 days a year I go out are a drop in the bucket and this is why I follow direction when I'm out there, regardless of my opinion. However, the idea that there is this unstoppable "evolution" aimed at making all trails besides twinks, funner and whoops perfectly doable on a cross bike, I don't buy. If this were the case, destinations like Moab and the North Shore are doomed. I guess the main point of my post was to ask whether or not this is a discussion going on at COTA. It seems like we have leadership on the buff trail front and the jump trail front (both of which I love and help with when I can) but is there anyone in COTA pushing to build (and keep what we have) technical trail in the area. I'm not one for the politics part, but I would love to put some sweat into that cause. On a side note, I agree with KW, the re route on COD is awesome. All the rock patio work on the rest, I think, really detracts from what that trail was.

  8. #8
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    I have been doing a lot of work with COTA over the last year - and it's quite a subjective thing in terms of building new trails from what I see. Each crew leaders goes about it differently.

    If you ride out at Maston, there are sections that are rocky as hell, and others directly next to that which are smooth as silk. This lies in who built the trail. Typically a work party aims to finish a section of trail, and they are not going to be as anal as one person who goes out on his own to build new trail. Even if a crew leader wants something done a certain way - you then have 10 people spread out over a couple hundred yards who are then using their own subjective eye.

    When I was working on NEW trails out there about a month ago, usually a crew leader would instruct us to test out any rocks on the trail, and if they are loose - remove them. If they don't budge, leave them.

    There are others who remove every single rock along the trail. The idea here is that you want people to pack the trail down and stay on a line the first year or 2, and eventually rocks will show up on the trail. They are right below the surface and soon erosion and use of the trail will uncover them.

    There is a difference between technical section and random root/rock however. For instance on Phil's trail near the trailhead, if there is a rock in the center of the trail (which is 99.9% smooth), people go around it. If you have noticed, Phil's is very wide in many spots, and you could argue that removing the stray rock will keep the trail singletrack. There are other sections on Phil's like the big rock outcropping (with the optional gap) and there are giant rocks all over. Nobody is going around removing any of those rocks. It's a legit technical section.

    If you look at the open letter to the forest service from COTA a couple months ago you will see that they specifically wanted to keep COD a harder trail, etc. There is no dialogue about making trail easier. If you look up the COTA trail standards on the web, you will see what each trail designation will show, and trail adopters need to follow that.

    I love technical sections personally. I know some people don't like them at all.

    With that said, nobody at COTA is actively dumbing down trails.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    I have been doing a lot of work with COTA over the last year - and it's quite a subjective thing in terms of building new trails from what I see. Each crew leaders goes about it differently.

    If you ride out at Maston, there are sections that are rocky as hell, and others directly next to that which are smooth as silk. This lies in who built the trail. Typically a work party aims to finish a section of trail, and they are not going to be as anal as one person who goes out on his own to build new trail. Even if a crew leader wants something done a certain way - you then have 10 people spread out over a couple hundred yards who are then using their own subjective eye.

    When I was working on NEW trails out there about a month ago, usually a crew leader would instruct us to test out any rocks on the trail, and if they are loose - remove them. If they don't budge, leave them.

    There are others who remove every single rock along the trail. The idea here is that you want people to pack the trail down and stay on a line the first year or 2, and eventually rocks will show up on the trail. They are right below the surface and soon erosion and use of the trail will uncover them.

    There is a difference between technical section and random root/rock however. For instance on Phil's trail near the trailhead, if there is a rock in the center of the trail (which is 99.9% smooth), people go around it. If you have noticed, Phil's is very wide in many spots, and you could argue that removing the stray rock will keep the trail singletrack. There are other sections on Phil's like the big rock outcropping (with the optional gap) and there are giant rocks all over. Nobody is going around removing any of those rocks. It's a legit technical section.

    If you look at the open letter to the forest service from COTA a couple months ago you will see that they specifically wanted to keep COD a harder trail, etc. There is no dialogue about making trail easier. If you look up the COTA trail standards on the web, you will see what each trail designation will show, and trail adopters need to follow that.

    I love technical sections personally. I know some people don't like them at all.

    With that said, nobody at COTA is actively dumbing down trails.
    One additional thought on this. One of our COTA leaders shared some really good information on this with me today. First, the trails like the DRT and COD are considered "Classic" trails and are quite old. Therefore, over time the characteristics of these types of trails tend to change due to erosion from rain, snow, and just plain usage. As the trail steward for Phil's, I like to add good dirt, not duff to the trail during the Fall in sections that need added material due to erosion and usage. This sometimes results in folks complaining that I am "dumbing" down the trail. This is not at all the case. This is pure maintenance and helps preserve the tread for long term use.

    Over time trails lose 4-6 inches of dirt in some sections. Just think of the rocks on Paul's Trail (Helipad) and COD as good examples of this. They get more and more exposed each year. These changes are gradual. Then the COTA trail steward and/or work crew goes in and adds dirt or re-routes the section in order to preserve the trail. Unfortunately, this results in complaints and also just as many kudos. I have been a steward for four years now and am still learning about proper trail maintenance and building. Folks think that this is a really simple and easy process. I would say it is far from that. A lot of experience and dare I say "artistry" goes into trail building and maintenance. We are fortunate to have some very experienced folks leading COTA. Most of them have 10-20+ years of experience working the dirt! Amazing.

    Happy Riding!! Come join us for Spring Fling in June (Central Oregon Trail Alliance ? Mountain Biking Trails Bend Sisters Oregon, Trail Maps Information).

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  10. #10
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    IMO, the term "Dumbing Down" is a misnomer, I like to use "Sterilize".

    Willem3 brings up a point that I've often wondered about. Why maintain a trail? I understand that a very large percentage of the trails that we ride are multiuse trails and need to be maintained this way, but why not let some trails go completely raw?

    My absolute favorite trails (Wright Meadow, Craggy Peak, Cussed Hollow) are open to motos and with the exception of clearing blow down, I don't think they have seen a rake, shovel, puloski or grub hoe in years. A large percentage of the trails are fall line and I'd bet in the wetter months there is a torrent flowing down them. Over the years, the motos have basically dug the trails into a large trench, someplace are easily 3 feet deep. Iíve ridden these trails with dozens of people and Iím fairly certain that most have thoroughly enjoyed them, at least everybody is whooping and hollering with huge smiles.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    IMO, the term "Dumbing Down" is a misnomer, I like to use "Sterilize".

    Willem3 brings up a point that I've often wondered about. Why maintain a trail? I understand that a very large percentage of the trails that we ride are multiuse trails and need to be maintained this way, but why not let some trails go completely raw?

    My absolute favorite trails (Wright Meadow, Craggy Peak, Cussed Hollow) are open to motos and with the exception of clearing blow down, I don't think they have seen a rake, shovel, puloski or grub hoe in years. A large percentage of the trails are fall line and I'd bet in the wetter months there is a torrent flowing down them. Over the years, the motos have basically dug the trails into a large trench, someplace are easily 3 feet deep. Iíve ridden these trails with dozens of people and Iím fairly certain that most have thoroughly enjoyed them, at least everybody is whooping and hollering with huge smiles.
    The only maintenance I need is blowdown removal. I could not agree more OHM!!!
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  12. #12
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    Here are a few reasons.

    1. the majority of people i know DON'T want to ride moto tracks.
    2. Forest Service/BLM entrusts trails to org's like COTA. If you want to keep bikers on trails and you want to build new one's regularly, you need to maintain the current trails by the standards they require.
    3. Some trails start out as roads. FUN! Not. It's very labor intensive converting a road to a nice trail.

    There are always going to be opinions on what is good and what is bad maintenance. That's just the way it is.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    IMO, the term "Dumbing Down" is a misnomer, I like to use "Sterilize".

    Willem3 brings up a point that I've often wondered about. Why maintain a trail? I understand that a very large percentage of the trails that we ride are multiuse trails and need to be maintained this way, but why not let some trails go completely raw?

    My absolute favorite trails (Wright Meadow, Craggy Peak, Cussed Hollow) are open to motos and with the exception of clearing blow down, I don't think they have seen a rake, shovel, puloski or grub hoe in years. A large percentage of the trails are fall line and I'd bet in the wetter months there is a torrent flowing down them. Over the years, the motos have basically dug the trails into a large trench, someplace are easily 3 feet deep. Iíve ridden these trails with dozens of people and Iím fairly certain that most have thoroughly enjoyed them, at least everybody is whooping and hollering with huge smiles.
    Well said couldn't agree more.

    I will add, that while I agree trails even "classic" trails need maintenance they need intelligent thoughtful maintenance from the perspective of an avid mountain biker. I think I am speaking for many riders when I say that simply filling in rocky, rooty, or otherwise challenging terrain because it was not that way originally is just dumb. There are many ways to preserve a trail, prevent it from widening etc than just simply filling it in. Furthermore, filling it in gives the green light to other "well intentioned" riders to do their own rogue maintenance of a similar nature and all this collectively leads to OUR trails becoming sterilized. So stop!

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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    Well said couldn't agree more.

    I will add, that while I agree trails even "classic" trails need maintenance they need intelligent thoughtful maintenance from the perspective of an avid mountain biker. I think I am speaking for many riders when I say that simply filling in rocky, rooty, or otherwise challenging terrain because it was not that way originally is just dumb. There are many ways to preserve a trail, prevent it from widening etc than just simply filling it in. Furthermore, filling it in gives the green light to other "well intentioned" riders to do their own rogue maintenance of a similar nature and all this collectively leads to OUR trails becoming sterilized. So stop!
    First, Big JC.... COTA trail crews leaders and volunteers are "Avid Mountain Bikers". Second, if you think that all we do is add dirt and fill in you are clearly not well informed or experienced with trail work. There is a lot we do that you and other riders don't even notice when riding the trail. Feel free to join us for a work party or at a COTA meeting. Also, Central Oregon dirt is very unique and each year in Spring we spend countless hours removing the damage caused by riders who hit the trail too early and create ruts, wider trails, and other damage.

    Thanks for your input.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    Here are a few reasons.

    1. the majority of people i know DON'T want to ride moto tracks.
    2. Forest Service/BLM entrusts trails to org's like COTA. If you want to keep bikers on trails and you want to build new one's regularly, you need to maintain the current trails by the standards they require.
    3. Some trails start out as roads. FUN! Not. It's very labor intensive converting a road to a nice trail.

    There are always going to be opinions on what is good and what is bad maintenance. That's just the way it is.
    +1!!!
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    First, Big JC.... COTA trail crews leaders and volunteers are "Avid Mountain Bikers". Second, if you think that all we do is add dirt and fill in you are clearly not well informed or experienced with trail work. There is a lot we do that you and other riders don't even notice when riding the trail. Feel free to join us for a work party or at a COTA meeting. Also, Central Oregon dirt is very unique and each year in Spring we spend countless hours removing the damage caused by riders who hit the trail too early and create ruts, wider trails, and other damage.

    Thanks for your input.....
    I am well aware of the nuances of Bend area dirt and damage done by wet riding. I am also aware of and have tremendous respect for what COTA does. I was speaking specifically to the idea of filling in trails over where rocks and roots have been exposed. Obviously we all have our opinions on what a trail should be. It has been mine (and obviously others) observation that the direction of some trail maintenance is to "dumb them down". It has been my personal observation that in high use trail area's the maintenance increasingly has gone the way of appeasing the least common denominator. I don't think this is to the benefit any "avid mountain biker", quite the contrary.
    Last edited by WHALENARD; 04-12-2013 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    I am well aware of the nuances of Bend area dirt and damage done by wet riding. I am also aware of and have tremendous respect for what CODA does. I was speaking specifically to the idea of filling in trails over where rocks and roots have been exposed. Obviously we all have our opinions on what a trail should be. It has been mine (and obviously others) observation that the direction of some trail maintenance is to "dumb them down". It has been my personal observation that in high use trail area's the maintenance increasingly has gone the way of appeasing the least common denominator. I don't think this is to the benefit any "avid mountain biker", quite the contrary.
    I would highly recommend that everyone watches the following documentary (available on Netflix):

    Pedal Driven

    This will educate everyone on why organizations like COTA and others are so highly valuable. The relationship between the Forest Service/BLM and trail builders is a critical one. No doubt COTA has to balance the difficulty levels of trails with the desires of these two organizations. The key is that we need a nice mix of trail types. I too enjoy trails like COD, Funner, Tiddlywinks, and others. The classic trails like the DRT and Phil's just need regular maintenance. As an example, I added dirt to a semi-rocky section two years ago and received complaints on this forum. Funny thing is that section is riding really nicely now. The added dirt settled in and the technical nature returned better than before. The snow and moisture did its job perfectly. If I had not done that maintenance, the section would be in horrible shape today.

    I understand the argument from both sides. That being said, this will always be a point of contention. Happy Riding!
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  18. #18
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    I don't particularly enjoy riding in 3' deep moto trenches.

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    I like it all (and I'll really miss that rock move on DRT). One of my gripes is people that gripe that every trail does not suit them. Ride them all. I don't want every trail to be built to the same standard. This is diversity that I can REALLY celebrate!

    And, of course, go COTA! Don't forget that complainers tend to complain, while happy riders just tend to ride happily without complaining on internet forums. Definitely the majority.
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    yawn

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    If it was a short 10' section over a 15 mile trail, then what is the big loss?? Surely you didn't ride 15 miles of hiking path just get in 10' of good technical trail.

    A trail should keep its general characteristic for the entire distance. You don't take a beginner trail and throw in random black diamond sections, and for the same reason you don't take a freeride trail and throw in long XC climbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    I like it all (and I'll really miss that rock move on DRT). One of my gripes is people that gripe that every trail does not suit them. Ride them all. I don't want every trail to be built to the same standard. This is diversity that I can REALLY celebrate!

    And, of course, go COTA! Don't forget that complainers tend to complain, while happy riders just tend to ride happily without complaining on internet forums. Definitely the majority.
    +1!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_co2 View Post
    If it was a short 10' section over a 15 mile trail, then what is the big loss?? Surely you didn't ride 15 miles of hiking path just get in 10' of good technical trail.

    A trail should keep its general characteristic for the entire distance. You don't take a beginner trail and throw in random black diamond sections, and for the same reason you don't take a freeride trail and throw in long XC climbs.
    No sh*t!!! Well said!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_co2 View Post
    If it was a short 10' section over a 15 mile trail, then what is the big loss?? Surely you didn't ride 15 miles of hiking path just get in 10' of good technical trail.

    A trail should keep its general characteristic for the entire distance. You don't take a beginner trail and throw in random black diamond sections, and for the same reason you don't take a freeride trail and throw in long XC climbs.
    Who are you to gauge the "loss" or value of that section to another rider? There are trails where just the removal of a SINGLE root, one single root ruined the characteristic of on entire section of trail. There are threads on here dedicated to just that, the removal of one root. Obviously such things are very important to riders that look forward to specific sections that they have ridden for a long time. Then somebody comes along and changes it, usually making it easier to ride for themselves. Of coarse this is going to piss off other trail users. How could it not? Were not talking about building sections of trail and throwing xc in with freeride so take your useless analogies somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    Who are you to gauge the "loss" or value of that section to another rider? There are trails where just the removal of a SINGLE root, one single root ruined the characteristic of on entire section of trail. There are threads on here dedicated to just that, the removal of one root. Obviously such things are very important to riders that look forward to specific sections that they have ridden for a long time. Then somebody comes along and changes it, usually making it easier to ride for themselves. Of coarse this is going to piss off other trail users. How could it not? Were not talking about building sections of trail and throwing xc in with freeride so take your useless analogies somewhere else.
    Go have a beer and chill!!!
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    Good ole boys trail building club eh. I'm allowed to make points as well, thanks willem. I'm not the with the dismissive condescension. As a guy who has been mountain biking for over 25 years the whole trail sanitizing trend is an issue I don't take lightly.

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    Who destroyed the one somewhat challenging section on the DRT and other Bend tr

    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    Good ole boys trail building club eh. I'm allowed to make points as well, thanks willem. I'm not the with the dismissive condescension. As a guy who has been mountain biking for over 25 years the whole trail sanitizing trend is an issue I don't take lightly.
    Nothing personal meant by it. Having a beer is fun. Relax. No reason to tell the guy to take his opinions elsewhere. COTA is not a Good Old Boys club. Far from it. Anyone can join and contribute. Cheers!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    yawn
    Quit it. You made me yawn, too.

    I love this discussion in whatever form every time it surfaces. However, I prefer riding my bike on whatever trail I happen to end up on, sanitized or not. Sure, techy is fun and challenging and I feel a sense of accomplishment. Sometimes, flow is improved and I find that fun, too.

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  29. #29
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    I generally dislike the sanitizing stuff...................but my wife is stoked to hear that big rock might be gone, since it's the only thing she gets off for on the DRT!

    She wouldn't mind if that rickety ladder thing halfway up Mrazek got sanitized, either. Since, again, it's (almost) the only thing she gets off for on that trail. Different strokes for different folks!

    I find it very hard to criticize the decisions and efforts of the volunteers who are actually present at a given work party. If I'm there, I'm going to chime in with an opinion, but if not, I'll just ride it and say thanks.

    So thanks.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    I generally dislike the sanitizing stuff...................but my wife is stoked to hear that big rock might be gone, since it's the only thing she gets off for on the DRT!

    She wouldn't mind if that rickety ladder thing halfway up Mrazek got sanitized, either. Since, again, it's (almost) the only thing she gets off for on that trail. Different strokes for different folks!

    I find it very hard to criticize the decisions and efforts of the volunteers who are actually present at a given work party. If I'm there, I'm going to chime in with an opinion, but if not, I'll just ride it and say thanks.

    So thanks.
    My wife will also be stoked for the techy stuff on DRT being removed. I loved those sections, but it's a 99% beginner trail and has newbies galore on it. If it gets her biking more great!

    BTW - the ladder was removed on Mrazek. Was falling apart. I heard from Phil he will build a new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big JC View Post
    Who are you to gauge the "loss" or value of that section to another rider? There are trails where just the removal of a SINGLE root, one single root ruined the characteristic of on entire section of trail. There are threads on here dedicated to just that, the removal of one root. Obviously such things are very important to riders that look forward to specific sections that they have ridden for a long time. Then somebody comes along and changes it, usually making it easier to ride for themselves. Of coarse this is going to piss off other trail users. How could it not? Were not talking about building sections of trail and throwing xc in with freeride so take your useless analogies somewhere else.
    My point had nothing to do with analogies, its about meeting the needs of all users. There will always be advanced riders wanting more challenge and there will always be novice riders who want less challenge, neither of them are wrong, regardless of how long they have been riding or how much they spend on their bikes.

    Just as likely as a novice removes a rock section, there will be a dirtjumper out with a shovel adding features to a trail that he considers boring, maybe they both had permission, maybe neither did.

    There are solutions to serve both user groups, and its not the London olympic XC course. The real fix has been well defined by IMBA- you create different trail for different users, and you limit the access to the more advanced trails. Building advanced trails/features that are easy access is bad not only for liability reasons, but for the the fact that its going to get altered, whether from tools or from tire tread. If you build your rock gardens 20 miles from the trailhead, most novice riders will never make it that far to ride them, and they sure as heck aren't going to carry tools that far to change it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_co2 View Post
    My point had nothing to do with analogies, its about meeting the needs of all users. There will always be advanced riders wanting more challenge and there will always be novice riders who want less challenge, neither of them are wrong, regardless of how long they have been riding or how much they spend on their bikes.

    Just as likely as a novice removes a rock section, there will be a dirtjumper out with a shovel adding features to a trail that he considers boring, maybe they both had permission, maybe neither did.

    There are solutions to serve both user groups, and its not the London olympic XC course. The real fix has been well defined by IMBA- you create different trail for different users, and you limit the access to the more advanced trails. Building advanced trails/features that are easy access is bad not only for liability reasons, but for the the fact that its going to get altered, whether from tools or from tire tread. If you build your rock gardens 20 miles from the trailhead, most novice riders will never make it that far to ride them, and they sure as heck aren't going to carry tools that far to change it.
    All fair points. I don't dispute any of them. I think we are speaking to completely different things.

  33. #33
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    If anybody is looking to clean up loose rocky sections here's a great trail to keep you busy. Gunsight Trail uphill - YouTube

    Have fun.

  34. #34
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    Who destroyed the one somewhat challenging section on the DRT and other Bend trails?

    Here is the section that started this thread. Rode it today up and down. Very nicely done!!! My hats off to the trail crew.


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    Did someone say beer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Here is the section that started this thread. Rode it today up and down. Very nicely done!!! My hats off to the trail crew.


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    What was wrong with it in the first place? Why is it such a big deal for a novice rider to get off their bike one time in 14 miles? I still don't get it. Will, you are saying all the politically correct things about trails for everyone and diversity but it is very clear that you are completely biased toward bland trail.

    I gather you don't know who did this but you are 100% behind it because it is now smooth and easy. When I do a great job restoring it, will you be giving me kudos as well? I promise it will drain well and the tread will be durable. May of your previous post are focused around the argument that just the fact that someone is going out and spending hours doing trail "maintenance" they are in the right as long as they are making the trail simpler. In this particular case, you don't seem to know if they had permission or who did it but you are in full support. My hunch is that if anyone were to make a section more technical you would be calling them rogue builders who endanger our trail network's existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastongeneral View Post
    What was wrong with it in the first place? Why is it such a big deal for a novice rider to get off their bike one time in 14 miles? I still don't get it. Will, you are saying all the politically correct things about trails for everyone and diversity but it is very clear that you are completely biased toward bland trail.

    I gather you don't know who did this but you are 100% behind it because it is now smooth and easy. When I do a great job restoring it, will you be giving me kudos as well? I promise it will drain well and the tread will be durable. May of your previous post are focused around the argument that just the fact that someone is going out and spending hours doing trail "maintenance" they are in the right as long as they are making the trail simpler. In this particular case, you don't seem to know if they had permission or who did it but you are in full support. My hunch is that if anyone were to make a section more technical you would be calling them rogue builders who endanger our trail network's existence.
    First, you don't know anything about me. Therefore, don't make assumptions. Second, I would not complain about a technical section. Look at my posting history and you will clearly see that. As opposed to complaining, I got involved. Third, this particular section will get most, if not all of its technical characteristics back within one-two seasons. Fourth, not all trail maintenance results in easier trails. If trail maintenance is done properly, no one even notices. Fifth, the DRT, Phil's and some other lower elevation trails are considered classic. Our job is to preserve them from erosion from riders and mother nature. Sixth, I am a big fan of the new trails in Wanoga and of the Edison Lava Trail in Bend. Both of these areas have technical sections that I enjoy very much. I am a huge supporter of more advanced trail and have helped build multiple technical sections on Funner for example. I even have a project slated to add some rock to help alleviate some the braking bumps on Phil's in the Canyon.

    According to the COTA board, the DRT is maintained by a running group. There are multiple spots on the DRT that were worked on recently by them. I am confident that they did this work. Opinions vary on these types of repair/maintenance. Have you joined us for trail work recently? Feel free to speak up in person or get involved.

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  38. #38
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    I am so glad that everyone's wife can now ride this section. BTW, I am with the "general" on this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    First, you don't know anything about me. Therefore, don't make assumptions. Second, I would not complain about a technical section. Look at my posting history and you will clearly see that. As opposed to complaining, I got involved. Third, this particular section will get most, if not all of its technical characteristics back within one-two seasons. Fourth, not all trail maintenance results in easier trails. If trail maintenance is done properly, no one even notices. Fifth, the DRT, Phil's and some other lower elevation trails are considered classic. Our job is to preserve them from erosion from riders and mother nature. Sixth, I am a big fan of the new trails in Wanoga and of the Edison Lava Trail in Bend. Both of these areas have technical sections that I enjoy very much. I am a huge supporter of more advanced trail and have helped build multiple technical sections on Funner for example. I even have a project slated to add some rock to help alleviate some the braking bumps on Phil's in the Canyon.

    According to the COTA board, the DRT is maintained by a running group. There are multiple spots on the DRT that were worked on recently by them. I am confident that they did this work. Opinions vary on these types of repair/maintenance. Have you joined us for trail work recently? Feel free to speak up in person or get involved.

    Cheers
    Will sorry if I got to personal, just seeing that picture got a me a little fired up about a trail section I used to really enjoy. I have ridden this trail 25+ times a year for the last 7 years (I am lucky enough that it can be my commute) and that section has not gotten any more eroded or changed in any significant way in that time. On that note, I would contend that what was done was not maintenance or restoration to classic state. That section was mostly rock and completely solid hardpack where it wasn't. This was 100% sterilization. Just above this section is another that has been eroded to oblivion over the years. Fixing that would have been maintenance. If it's going to be back to the way it was, why do it and make everyone deal with loose dust between rocks for years just to have it return to it's rightful state?

    I do my best to get out and pitch in. I haven't missed missed an event formerly known as biketober fest in my 7 years here and made almost every spring fling. I have done a handful of smaller built parties and brush/blowdown clearing on my own in between each season. I know this is a tiny bit compared to you folks at COTA but I think it's more than most who ride these trails can say.

  40. #40
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    One other thing. I wasn't suggesting that the section above the one in question should go on the to do list. Please, please don't do that. I much prefer it with lots of roots exposed. I was just saying that someone could make a maintenance argument on that section but the one in the picture was certainly not maintenance or restoration to "classic" state.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastongeneral View Post
    Will sorry if I got to personal, just seeing that picture got a me a little fired up about a trail section I used to really enjoy. I have ridden this trail 25+ times a year for the last 7 years (I am lucky enough that it can be my commute) and that section has not gotten any more eroded or changed in any significant way in that time. On that note, I would contend that what was done was not maintenance or restoration to classic state. That section was mostly rock and completely solid hardpack where it wasn't. This was 100% sterilization. Just above this section is another that has been eroded to oblivion over the years. Fixing that would have been maintenance. If it's going to be back to the way it was, why do it and make everyone deal with loose dust between rocks for years just to have it return to it's rightful state?

    I do my best to get out and pitch in. I haven't missed missed an event formerly known as biketober fest in my 7 years here and made almost every spring fling. I have done a handful of smaller built parties and brush/blowdown clearing on my own in between each season. I know this is a tiny bit compared to you folks at COTA but I think it's more than most who ride these trails can say.
    No worries. Nice commute by the way! We are lucky to live in Bend. All the options make me really thankful. COTA does not maintain the DRT and therefore the group that does will make the call on "maintenance". I understand your frustration and there will always be points of disagreement on something like trail building. There is some much artistry that goes into it, that it is easy to go to far or sometimes do too little. I strive to make my work inconsequential, but effective. Meaning that it does not ruin the experience, but provides a fine balance with long-term viability of the trail. Always a tricky tightrope to walk on as a trail builder/maintenance person...

    Look forward to meeting you at Spring Fling in June. Thanks for your many years of involvement and support. Cheers!
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  42. #42
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    Sorry to interrupt, but I ride this trail all the time; have not been on it in several weeks. Where exactly is the change? I cannot tell by the photo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    Sorry to interrupt, but I ride this trail all the time; have not been on it in several weeks. Where exactly is the change? I cannot tell by the photo.
    Just before Dillon Falls when heading toward Benham. Before the only real steep climb.....
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Just before Dillon Falls when heading toward Benham. Before the only real steep climb.....
    Ahh... I think I know now.... right before the steep climb.

    I've had some trouble going up that section, but never coming down. I'll have to check it out again soon.

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    Came across another neutering today. On cod, the one somewhat technical lower trail we have. If you are heading down the lower portion of cod not long before you hit the intersection with marvin's, there are two short steep climbs close together. The second one has already had one reroute to make it easier and just got a third to remove any challenge all together. Each year another few technical features on cod are removed. When will it stop? Can we leave just one lower trail alone? Will, sorry to single you out but you seem to be following this, who is the adopter of COD? Are these things democratic at all? Would presenting a petition with a few hundred signatures to the adopter mean anything or does this one person own the trail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastongeneral View Post
    Came across another neutering today. On cod, the one somewhat technical lower trail we have. If you are heading down the lower portion of cod not long before you hit the intersection with marvin's, there are two short steep climbs close together. The second one has already had one reroute to make it easier and just got a third to remove any challenge all together. Each year another few technical features on cod are removed. When will it stop? Can we leave just one lower trail alone? Will, sorry to single you out but you seem to be following this, who is the adopter of COD? Are these things democratic at all? Would presenting a petition with a few hundred signatures to the adopter mean anything or does this one person own the trail?
    Here is a link to our list of trails with the adopters contact information. Feel free to reach out. http://cotamtb.com/wp-content/upload...ail_4-2-13.pdf
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  47. #47
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    I love the presumption that trails never change unless someone deliberately dumbs them down. Trails change constantly and they all require work constanty. If it is not done they become damaged beyond routine maintenance. What most complainers fail to see is the tweaking that goes into maintaining trail standard and they only notice what thrills or annoys them.

    Sounds like you have the same issue with people whose mouths far outweigh their volunteering effort and trailcare knowledge that afflicts every trail system in the world. Someone should do a study on the inverse relationship between the amount of *****ing and the amount of helping done.

    "They took out my favourite unrideable rock. It was the only one for 20km. I used to like breaking my rear derailleur on it.... Waaah Waah Waah" Give it a break, it's your problem, not that of the trail or the builders.

  48. #48
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    Well, I usually don't reply to these threads, but I guess it is time to go through all of this again.
    I am the adopter of COD. I have been for the last 6 years or so.
    Yes, we have changed some things on that trail. Some of the work was done to mitigate erosion, overuse and poor original design. There were and still are several spots that just don't hold up to the kind of use that trail sees now.
    Am I happy with every one of these changes? No, some of the work did in fact make the trail less challenging. This was never the intent. The intent was to make the trail more sustainable over the long haul.
    I enjoy challenging and technical trails as much as EG apparently does. That is why I adopted COD. That is why I did a major part of the work on the reroute near Inn at 7th.
    It has been over 2 years since COTA or I have done anything to lower COD besides brushing, drainage, and blocking off go arounds.
    This new work you speak of was not done with my knowledge nor was it a COTA event. The same goes with the recent work done near Tetherow over the last year. I don't know who is doing it. People are constantly doing work on that trail and others without getting in touch with me or COTA first. I do know that I have spent a lot of time undoing other peoples "improvements" as well as fixing some of my own poorly executed work. I am not perfect, and no, I do not own the trail. Anyone is welcome to help me. Please just contact me first. Go to the COTA website and look at the adopt a trail page. My contact info is in there.
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  49. #49
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    Considering how many people live in Bend that ride a mountain bike, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of riders in the area have never even heard of COTA.

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    Seedy, really glad to hear that a lot of the go arounds and such are not COTA sanctioned. Sucks that it is still happening but what can you do. The reroute you did near Inn at the 7th is a huge improvement. If you read this whole thread you might have noticed another poster and myself referring to that section as a welcome improvement. Thanks. There are a couple corners below that reroute chronically blow out and I was planning on going out next week to fortify them. Would that be alright? You probably know the one's I'm talking about but they are at the bottoms of the few descents you get when riding west on that lower section before you would start climbing the reroute by in at the 7th.

    Cheers

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