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  1. #1
    Afric Pepperbird
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    Unauthorized trail building in Forest Park?

    Caught on tape? By the Oregon Field Guide crew??

    I used to live in Portland, and agree that it's taking forever and ever and ever and ever to get biking singletrack in there. Maybe I'll see it by the time I'm 80 years old.

    But it has to be done properly. This can only give biking a black eye.
    Last edited by dirt farmer; 02-24-2010 at 10:18 AM.

  2. #2
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    On the one hand:
    It's pretty lame that someone did this. I agree it's vandelism by a small and selfish group, of a beautiful public resource that belongs to all. This type of action doesn't help anything or anyone to achieve the desired end result of mt. biking in the park. ...Or bike access overall.

    On the other hand:
    Something needs to light a fire under the beauracratic nit-wits to put some legitimate plans for mt. bike access in place sooner than later. The conversation has been serious for a few years now and it's total B.S. that the folks running the joint have yet to come up with a plan. Their talk is cheap and tiresome.

    I agree with the closing of the story and Frank Selker's assessment of the situation.

  3. #3
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    Such a frustrating situation, but NWTA needs to use this to their advantage. The commissioners appear to be legitimately open/interested in expanding singletrack mtb opportunities in Forest Park. However, make no mistake, for the opposing groups the only acceptable result is no new trails whatsoever and no expanded mountian biking opportunities. They will actively try to use this news as an example of mountain bikes tearing up the park, mountain bikers not being responsible stewards, and not worth trusting--whether they say it in the open or not. This does NOT have to be a black eye. Rather, it should be used to show the city and the oppostion that this is going to happen either the right way or the wrong way. Better for everyone involved to do things the right way.

    As much as I disrespect vigilante trail building, sometimes its the swift kick in the butt needed to get the powers that be to recognize a problem. I know many will disagree, but you should check out the Freedom Riders movie and see how that turned out.

  4. #4
    I got nothin'
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    In the Oregonian

    Yep, I read the article in the Oregonian this morning. First thing I thought when I saw the headline was "oh f#$k." I had heard the rumors but now it's out for all to see. Now the opposition groups have something more arguments to hold onto, even though I see a lot of rouge trails from hikers in Forest Park not to mention the West Hills. Improper hiking trails also cause erosion, habitat, and plant damage too.

    Rouge trail building has been an issue now for a number of years...pent up demand with no outlet. Unfortunately this type of activity usually creates setbacks and additional tensions between the MTB community and land managers. Hopefully it turns out well in the end.

    I guess my message for the rouge builders is why don't you use some of your energy to get involved to create legal trails. That way we can all enjoy them, land managers are happy, more trails get built....it's a win-win-win.
    I ride at ludicrous speed

  5. #5
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    They are trying ...

    I believe NWTA is trying their hardest to use this and other events to move Forest Park in the right direction.

    I am trying to work with NWTA to create a National Bike Patrol in the park. I think this would help in several ways:
    • Evidence of self-policing
    • Better PR
    • Actual help (directions, first aid) for hikers and bikers
    • Better to change policies from inside


    I have lived around PDX for about 5 years now, and I've been asked in the past to help with Forest Park, but the time was not right then, in my opinion. But the time to address this has arrived.
    The Lee-Man

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  6. #6
    endoguy
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    This does represent an opportunity to pursue more trails for mountain biking. To make available already existing trails , i.e. firelanes 2 and 7, would be better than what is available now. I agree that the building of "illegal" trails represents the frustrations we riders have. Something needs to be done for the mountain bike riding population or else this behavior of independently building trails will persist.

  7. #7
    ronbo613
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    Well, I just saw this story on the news and the cops are looking for the people who made the trails.
    As much as I disrespect vigilante trail building, sometimes its the swift kick in the butt needed to get the powers that be to recognize a problem.
    The "powers that be" are now looking to arrest some "vigilante trail" builders. Apparently; OPB has some footage of a confrontation with bikers working on the trail. Note to vigilantes; when you are doing something illegal; don't do it on video.
    Even without knowing all the details; this is most likely not going to help the mountain biking cause in that area.

  8. #8
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    One of the top news stories on ch 8

    Followed the Collins jury decision story...the way it was timed and spun, one might have thought it was on the same level as these two thugs beating a XC skier. Love tree huggin' Portland and our local media giving what people want.
    Last edited by Glide the Clyde; 02-24-2010 at 05:58 PM.
    Sometimes, you need to go fast enough that the trail is a blur to find clarity. -- Wild Bill

  9. #9
    Daniel the Dog
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    Too much effort for little return

    Yep, illegal trail building is right up there with sex abuse and terrorism. No, but really, bad situation for mountain bikers in PDX. The idiots who did it should be fined.
    Last edited by Jaybo; 02-24-2010 at 06:43 PM.

  10. #10
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    Wow. Check out the video. Those guys should go home, get girlfriends, and get laid. Instead, they're out dicking around in the woods, making a mess, and setting back mtb access. Thanks a lot.

  11. #11
    Daniel the Dog
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    Get girlfriends?

    Quote Originally Posted by charley289
    Wow. Check out the video. Those guys should go home, get girlfriends, and get laid. Instead, they're out dicking around in the woods, making a mess, and setting back mtb access. Thanks a lot.
    Stay single and ride until your legs turn into rocks. Oh, I guess my chance at that has flown away

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Stay single and ride until your legs turn into rocks. Oh, I guess my chance at that has flown away
    Yeah, too late for me. I got the woman bug before I got the bike bug.

  13. #13
    GEAUX TIGERS!!!
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    Just saw the story on Channel 8 news. The anchorman was stressing that it was through a pristine part of FP and its estimated damage is $80K. If the NWTA and its members rally and do some volunteer efforts to repair the area to its natural state in a sustainable manner, then I agree this could lead to something good. Although, these idiots that built the stuff should do some time or pay major fines.

  14. #14
    meatier showers
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    Dang. For a minute there I hoped we might have an answer to the never ending "Where to ride mountain bikes in Portland?" question.

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    Jaybo... quit *****ing and move to Texas

  15. #15
    Singletrack Addict
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Dang. For a minute there I hoped we might have an answer to the never ending "Where to ride mountain bikes in Portland?" question.

    --Sparty
    In Portland, we just call them road bikes

  16. #16
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    I think it's funny how Forest Park is considered "Pristine" yeah, it's a cool place for a quick reprieve, but come on...I don't think there is a place in both Washington and Forest Park that aren't covered in a carpet of English Ivy or infested with Garlic Mustard and Holly. And they want to protect this from mt bikes.

    I'll say it again, Forest Park is plenty big for New mt bikes trails to be built that wont harm the "pristine" enviroment in Forest Park. I wont hold my breath though.

    And yeah, these guys kinda suck, there are appropriate places and times to do stuff like this and this isn't the time nor place.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  17. #17
    Afric Pepperbird
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo613
    Apparently; OPB has some footage of a confrontation with bikers working on the trail
    Umm, yeah. Did you see my original post? The video clip is right there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I think it's funny how Forest Park is considered "Pristine" yeah, it's a cool place for a quick reprieve, but come on...I don't think there is a place in both Washington and Forest Park that aren't covered in a carpet of English Ivy or infested with Garlic Mustard and Holly. And they want to protect this from mt bikes.
    Not to mention... power lines, gas lines, how many tons of gravel were used for Leif Erickson... etc. Why isn't there a big stink about reclaiming the fireroads and restoring those sections of the park?

    I'm certainly not saying it's cool to blaze trails at whim in the park, but let's keep things in perspective.

    I'm honestly surprised the mainstream / non-bike-centric media picked up on this at all.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    I'm honestly surprised the mainstream / non-bike-centric media picked up on this at all.
    That's the kicker right there. Most likely, opposition groups found out about this and actively used their connections in the press to make this a bigger story than it needed to be. Sadly, the mountain bike groups simply don't have the connections and political clout needed to swing the story back to the middle. The headline could have read something like "Illegal Trail Building in Forest Park Underscores the Need for More SingleTrack Mountain Bike Trails in Portland."

  20. #20
    Steve Dallas wannabe
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    Quote Originally Posted by thorkild
    "Illegal Trail Building in Forest Park Underscores the Need for More SingleTrack Mountain Bike Trails in Portland."
    Brilliant!!

  21. #21
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    80k in damages?,that's the conservationalist guys paying themselves with tax payer money for hanging out in the woods.

  22. #22
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    Agree with you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    Not to mention... power lines, gas lines, how many tons of gravel were used for Leif Erickson... etc. Why isn't there a big stink about reclaiming the fireroads and restoring those sections of the park?

    I'm certainly not saying it's cool to blaze trails at whim in the park, but let's keep things in perspective.

    I'm honestly surprised the mainstream / non-bike-centric media picked up on this at all.
    Not to mention the daily "treks" (lunchbreaks) the city parks/fire department take 10,000 trucks up and down the LE trail which causes the most erosion. Oh and all those pristine little creeks flowing from the septic systems of the developments on the ridge. The damage estimates these lawyers come up with is always complete BS until you factor in the salaries of everyone of the thumb-twiddlers who have nothing better to do than find a cause to throw the public's $ at.
    The wheel is a extension of the foot

  23. #23
    Clever Slogan
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    "Illegal Trail Building in __________ Underscores the Need for More SingleTrack Mountain Bike Trails in ___________."


    This was a central theme in my discussions with ODF during the run-up to starting Blackrock. Which they understood all too well. In fact, most land mgt. agencies recognize that illegal activity such as trail building represents a growing need. Rather than let them spend a few years researching the matter (then breaking ground) I provided them with all the data they'd discover on their own by 2025.

    I started small. Repair existing trails. Then build a sample trail to prove the merits contained in my engineering & mgt. standard. They check it out, we collectively tweek a few a things and a few thousand hours later you got a great thing.

    I find it sadly ironic that the decision makers in such a "green" city are thus far failing, it seems, to address the needs of a niche group - who undoubtedly do their part to "Keep Portland Weird"
    "...his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

  24. #24
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    ...
    I'm honestly surprised the mainstream / non-bike-centric media picked up on this at all.
    I make my living off the evening news
    Just give me something, something I can use
    People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry

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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
    Jaybo... quit *****ing and move to Texas

  25. #25
    ronbo613
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    I make my living off the evening news
    Just give me something, something I can use
    People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry
    Bad news is the news.
    Anything else is a feature story.

  26. #26
    mudnthebloodnthebeer
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    Irrational hoarding of trail resources in Forest Park, meet "just happy to have a seat at the table" advocacy. I'm surprised that something like this hasn't happened sooner.
    Also, the streets are full of horizontal dropouts...

    BSNYC

  27. #27
    Daniel the Dog
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    It is a funny response

    No guys should not build illegal trails on FP. I get it. But I agree with the poster above: 80k! Give it 10 years and the forest will make those trails magically vanish. PDX is a city full of wackos! Oh, lets not talk about the cementing of America by urban sprawl. We need to talk about a stupid illegally built trail.
    Last edited by Jaybo; 02-26-2010 at 10:33 AM.

  28. #28
    On wuss patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    I make my living off the evening news
    Just give me something, something I can use
    People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry

    --Sparty

    You gonna see the guys when they come to PDX?
    Sometimes, you need to go fast enough that the trail is a blur to find clarity. -- Wild Bill

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    PDX is a city full of wackos! .
    hey, i resemble that remark.

  30. #30
    Daniel the Dog
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    Here is the PDX leader

    Quote Originally Posted by thumbprinter
    hey, i resemble that remark.
    This town voted this guys in. 'Nuff said.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    This town voted this guys in.
    huh? is it one guy or more than one? you seem to be unsure.

  32. #32
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    Wow. Way to represent. That's gonna leave a mark!
    So, they mentioned the BPA road. This shouldn't be too hard to find.
    "Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
    -- Mark Twain

  33. #33
    MattSavage
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    Where do you think those guys in the video are from? Hillsboro or Gresham? Maybe the 'Couv, but I doubt it.
    "I wrote a hit play! What have you ever done?!"

    Have Ashtray, Will Travel....

  34. #34
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    OMG a trail trough the woods?!? No way in hell that should ever happen (scarasim). Jesus people get a life, I woulda gave that mofo a piece of my mind when the camera turned off.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by alias33
    OMG a trail trough the woods?!? No way in hell that should ever happen (scarasim). Jesus people get a life, I woulda gave that mofo a piece of my mind when the camera turned off.
    Doesn't look like you can spare it.
    Sometimes, you need to go fast enough that the trail is a blur to find clarity. -- Wild Bill

  36. #36
    Obviously Single
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    Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by alias33
    OMG a trail trough the woods?!? No way in hell that should ever happen (scarasim). Jesus people get a life, I woulda gave that mofo a piece of my mind when the camera turned off.
    Wow, "Alias" (I bet that is not your real name). That seems so very selfish. I bet you are not good at sharing in general.

    I hope you offer that piece to somebody that can use it.
    Last edited by LeeMan; 03-15-2010 at 10:21 AM.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by thorkild
    That's the kicker right there. Most likely, opposition groups found out about this and actively used their connections in the press to make this a bigger story than it needed to be. Sadly, the mountain bike groups simply don't have the connections and political clout needed to swing the story back to the middle. The headline could have read something like "Illegal Trail Building in Forest Park Underscores the Need for More SingleTrack Mountain Bike Trails in Portland."

    Bingo.
    That paragraph sums it ALL up in a nut shell. Those with the bucks win. Our city hall likes to stroke themselves by claiming to be the most "bike friendly" city... nay nay. They are the most commuter friendly, not bikes in general.. our mayor's hommies get the hookups, because he's a roadie as well, but us "dirtbags" can bite one.

    This whole thing is more a story about the PISS POOR job our modern day "media" does at telling stories.. slanted to whoever has the bigger voice (bank account) Example: "building damns across creeks" should have actually read "fortified a stone footing that water & sediment easily flows over that was already in place"

    The images of that trail showed nothing but perfectly sculpted earth with every effort made to ensure proper drainage & stability. You are not talking about 12 year olds with a pick axe... the pics show true trail craftsmanship & consideration for the environment.

    Why would the city not say hey wait a second, these guys just saved us $100K in overpriced labor and misappropriated funds to build what we are promising to build anyway?

    Crazy.

    Now with that said, obviously this was not the right way to get things done. But to call for fellow riders heads to roll for pushing an issue YOU GUYS WILL ALL eventually bennefit from is shameful.

    Back up your fellow shredders, it's the only voice we have.

    And dead wrong about the girlfriends comments, one of them dudes is married to a california 9!
    Loud, crude, halfway educated & FAST

  38. #38
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    because the mayor's best friends son in law(or somebody like that) IS the over paid labor,it didn't go through the "proper channels" that means not into the usual pocket.

  39. #39
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    "shredders" stay out of my park

    Quote Originally Posted by rubberdown


    The images of that trail showed nothing but perfectly sculpted earth with every effort made to ensure proper drainage & stability. You are not talking about 12 year olds with a pick axe... the pics show true trail craftsmanship & consideration for the environment.

    Why would the city not say hey wait a second, these guys just saved us $100K in overpriced labor and misappropriated funds to build what we are promising to build anyway?

    Crazy.

    Now with that said, obviously this was not the right way to get things done. But to call for fellow riders heads to roll for pushing an issue YOU GUYS WILL ALL eventually bennefit from is shameful.

    Back up your fellow shredders, it's the only voice we have.

    And dead wrong about the girlfriends comments, one of them dudes is married to a california 9!
    I just read the update on NWTA's website. This little selfish building stunt has indeed set back the movement for legal singletrack. So I disagree completely that this will somehow "bennefit" me.

    As for your claim that these ham-handed dudes showed "trail craftsmanship & consideration for the environment," why did they cut live cedars down to make the trail? Cutting live cedars to make a trail that you're hiding from everyone but your friends is "consideration"? Why did they build it in the one part of the park not under consideration for mountain bike trails? Because they thought that they could keep it hidden. Uh, yeah that worked really well, boys. Say hi to the video camera!

    And these guys are "the only voice we have"? Give me a frickin break. They don't represent me. In greener-than-thou Portland, I can't think of any worse possible spokesperson than someone who goes in to a public park, trashes elk habitat, cuts live trees, and tries to hide their hobby from the public. Maybe Osama Bin Laden can represent NWTA? Or Dick Cheney?

    I'm not interested in backing up any "shredders," only riders. Anyone who goes out and "shreds" like this is just making it harder for the grownups who have put money and sweat into legal trails. If everyone built their own trail on public land, ignoring the many man-hours spent on opening up trails like the Maple Trail or Wildwood Trail, we'd NEVER get legal trails, and the only riding would be clandestine. Welcome to 1984, then, if that's what you want.

    As for the california 9: he needs to spend some time with his wife, and maybe learn how to make babies, and leave the trail building to the professionals.

  40. #40
    Daniel the Dog
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    They dislike us

    Look at the Bay area and you can see how much some factions hate bikers. Mountain biking is TOUGH sledding in Forest Park!!! They don't want us anywhere near them. Heck I have gotten nasty comments on Fire road 3. This stunt with the illegal trails is unfortunate but I really wonder how much damage it will do in the end. I laughed my butt off when Channel 8 referred to it as pristine land and made it one of the first stories on their show. As always, I could be dead wrong as I have not seen it, but it is a little dramatic. Heck, on top of FR 3 there used to be a field area we hung out and now their is a MONSTER house up there with 2 people live there. Now, this should be on the news not some stupid trail.

  41. #41
    Daniel the Dog
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    They dislike us

    And always will. It is just what it is...and they have pushed us out.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by charley289
    I just read the update on NWTA's website. This little selfish building stunt has indeed set back the movement for legal singletrack. So I disagree completely that this will somehow "bennefit" me.

    As for your claim that these ham-handed dudes showed "trail craftsmanship & consideration for the environment," why did they cut live cedars down to make the trail? Cutting live cedars to make a trail that you're hiding from everyone but your friends is "consideration"? Why did they build it in the one part of the park not under consideration for mountain bike trails? Because they thought that they could keep it hidden. Uh, yeah that worked really well, boys. Say hi to the video camera!

    And these guys are "the only voice we have"? Give me a frickin break. They don't represent me. In greener-than-thou Portland, I can't think of any worse possible spokesperson than someone who goes in to a public park, trashes elk habitat, cuts live trees, and tries to hide their hobby from the public. Maybe Osama Bin Laden can represent NWTA? Or Dick Cheney?

    I'm not interested in backing up any "shredders," only riders. Anyone who goes out and "shreds" like this is just making it harder for the grownups who have put money and sweat into legal trails. If everyone built their own trail on public land, ignoring the many man-hours spent on opening up trails like the Maple Trail or Wildwood Trail, we'd NEVER get legal trails, and the only riding would be clandestine. Welcome to 1984, then, if that's what you want.

    As for the california 9: he needs to spend some time with his wife, and maybe learn how to make babies, and leave the trail building to the professionals.
    Quite the hater there chief. Happy trails.
    Loud, crude, halfway educated & FAST

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by charley289
    I just read the update on NWTA's website. This little selfish building stunt has indeed set back the movement for legal singletrack. So I disagree completely that this will somehow "bennefit" me.

    As for your claim that these ham-handed dudes showed "trail craftsmanship & consideration for the environment," why did they cut live cedars down to make the trail? Cutting live cedars to make a trail that you're hiding from everyone but your friends is "consideration"? Why did they build it in the one part of the park not under consideration for mountain bike trails? Because they thought that they could keep it hidden. Uh, yeah that worked really well, boys. Say hi to the video camera!

    And these guys are "the only voice we have"? Give me a frickin break. They don't represent me. In greener-than-thou Portland, I can't think of any worse possible spokesperson than someone who goes in to a public park, trashes elk habitat, cuts live trees, and tries to hide their hobby from the public. Maybe Osama Bin Laden can represent NWTA? Or Dick Cheney?

    I'm not interested in backing up any "shredders," only riders. Anyone who goes out and "shreds" like this is just making it harder for the grownups who have put money and sweat into legal trails. If everyone built their own trail on public land, ignoring the many man-hours spent on opening up trails like the Maple Trail or Wildwood Trail, we'd NEVER get legal trails, and the only riding would be clandestine. Welcome to 1984, then, if that's what you want.

    As for the california 9: he needs to spend some time with his wife, and maybe learn how to make babies, and leave the trail building to the professionals.
    And why on earth would you omit the first two paragraphs of my post mate?
    Loud, crude, halfway educated & FAST

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Look at the Bay area and you can see how much some factions hate bikers. Mountain biking is TOUGH sledding in Forest Park!!! They don't want us anywhere near them. Heck I have gotten nasty comments on Fire road 3. This stunt with the illegal trails is unfortunate but I really wonder how much damage it will do in the end. I laughed my butt off when Channel 8 referred to it as pristine land and made it one of the first stories on their show. As always, I could be dead wrong as I have not seen it, but it is a little dramatic. Heck, on top of FR 3 there used to be a field area we hung out and now their is a MONSTER house up there with 2 people live there. Now, this should be on the news not some stupid trail.
    I hate it when I agree with Jaybo.
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  45. #45
    Daniel the Dog
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    Okay

    Maybe you are getting older and wiser?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubberdown
    And why on earth would you omit the first two paragraphs of my post mate?
    I omitted the first two paragraphs because I didn't really disagree with them. Just wanted to have the relevant parts handy.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubberdown
    Quite the hater there chief. Happy trails.
    Not a hater, just royally pissed. I live near Forest Park and was really looking forward to riding singletrack there. So I'm pissed that these guys almost single-handedly gave the anti-bike movement the best piece of news they've gotten in this whole process. All the news we got out of these meetings was basically good, then all of a sudden, the Oregonian is hyperventilating about the lost virginity of the woods, and Portland P & R starts throwing up regulatory roadblocks.

    So, yeah, if my mood seems dark, it is. I gotta right to it. These guys screwed us over for selfish kicks.

  48. #48
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    today i went on a 4 hr hike with my dog in the park. I counted 0 bikes on or off trails.... on the other hand I counted 16 hikers breaking their own trail or off a marked trail.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by charley289
    I live near Forest Park and was really looking forward to riding singletrack there.
    charley289, as LeeMan posted previously (Preliminary Bike Patrol Interest?), there's discussion of a "bike patrol" being started in FP. The role of the patrol would primarily be education/outreach and safety. Since you live close to the park, consider becoming involved in this, if it moves forward. Also, if you happen to live close enough to the park to live in the Forest Park Neighborhood, please become involved in the Forest Park Neighborhood Association-- cyclists could use any representation they can get there, as some of the main opponents are local residents around the park.

    The singletrack discussion is still on-going, so don't lose hope yet. We all knew this wasn't going to happen overnight, regardless of the trails that were built in the Northern Management Unit.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by charley289
    Not a hater, just royally pissed. I live near Forest Park and was really looking forward to riding singletrack there. So I'm pissed that these guys almost single-handedly gave the anti-bike movement the best piece of news they've gotten in this whole process. All the news we got out of these meetings was basically good, then all of a sudden, the Oregonian is hyperventilating about the lost virginity of the woods, and Portland P & R starts throwing up regulatory roadblocks.

    So, yeah, if my mood seems dark, it is. I gotta right to it. These guys screwed us over for selfish kicks.

    I certainly would not argue against those thoughts, as obviously it's a huge no no and the dudes responsible should feel shame & regret for bruising an already irritated issue. 100%no BS, I agree.

    But what I can argue against is somebody trying to reach the same goals as these guys continuing to spew the same garbage as the news outlets in forums like this, furthering the GROSSLY overstated facts of the matter and smacking the opposing forces a high five.

    Maybe instead of just trashing these guys, help point out the real facts, like the trail pictures they showed everywhere actually display great consideration for drainage? That there is a HUGE number of people who want that very trail.

    I don't see any good purpose in continuing on the propaganda the way you have.

    Why not take the approach that yeah, a couple bad apples did something wrong, but why not take advantage of the situation & actullay utilize the existing trail? No, let's spend money "fixing" the "destruction (that nature would erase in 5 years tops) & then respend more money down the line building a new trail (maybe, it's at least 5 years into that maybe now)

    It just does not make sense.

    A unified voice would help. And apparently we need to speak louder because NOBODY IS LISTENING TO OUR SIDE.

    And so I am loud and clear, I do not condone that trail, at all. But I do completely back the fact that talk is cheap & has gotten non-rodie cyclists NOWHERE.
    Loud, crude, halfway educated & FAST

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