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  1. #1
    troubled economist
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    Reminder: Scappoose closed at night

    The land manager of this riding area has specified that their property is closed to *all* users after dark. (They're not singling out bikers, this holds true for all user groups.)

    Continued use of their property requires us, as users, to heed by their rules. So please respect this request.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
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    I have no faith in the community to follow the land owners rules at Scappoose. It is sad to say, but I believe one day they will just close it to all users.

    Hopefully I am wrong.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  3. #3
    troubled economist
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    One of the issues I have with this regulation is that the posted rules at the gates don't indicate "day use only" (based on a couple of blue gates I surveyed there yesterday), so unless you're a rider who has actually followed threads about this on the NWTA website, you could show up for a ride out there and not have any idea of this restriction.

    Anyway, if everyone does their part to help educate fellow riders about this, then perhaps we can help retain access to this area.

  4. #4
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    I have no faith in the community to follow the land owners rules at Scappoose. It is sad to say, but I believe one day they will just close it to all users.

    Hopefully I am wrong.
    Sadly, I too believe this to be true. Most riders are not members of NTWA, don't know who they are, and/or can care less about that group. They just want to ride and generally are unaware of changing land rules out there.

    It doesn't help that NWTA has the reputation of not being very friendly or approachable, and tend to sound like they are always lecturing other people who do not meet their criteria (others opinion, not mine).

  5. #5
    meatier showers
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    Thinking out loud here, but if NWTA has negotiated use & land mgt liaison responsibilities for Scappoose, then perhaps NWTA should invest in an all-weather sign to be posted at the trailhead to convey information about the area's appropriate use.

    I admit the sign might come under attack if it does nothing but coldly announces restrictions. But if it rallies people in a positive way as it informs them about what CAN be done there, it might escape vandalism. Just sayin'...

    I've ridden at Scappoose a couple times... like it... would hate to see such a resource lost.

    --Sparty
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  6. #6
    I got nothin'
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    I have come to the conclusion that most riders in the area just want to ride and either aren't interested in contributing to maintaining the trails or haven't been engaged effectively by NWTA, WTF, or IMBA. Yep, I am a member of NWTA and IMBA and give back what I can of time and money because I know if I want to ride in the future that I need to contribute now. I am not saying that everyone must join a group, but it would be cool to have non-members show up to work parties. They are always welcome. We have hikers and equestrians show up to our organized work parties in the Tillamook on a regular basis.

    It also seems ironic that so many people view NWTA in a negative light since Scappoose would have never been developed had it not been for members of the NWTA. I think we owe a lot to those people that made it happen and continue to keep it open.
    I ride at ludicrous speed

  7. #7
    Obviously Single
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    1000 to 1 ...

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrogeek
    I have come to the conclusion that most riders in the area just want to ride and either aren't interested in contributing to maintaining the trails or haven't been engaged effectively by NWTA, WTF, or IMBA. Yep, I am a member of NWTA and IMBA and give back what I can of time and money because I know if I want to ride in the future that I need to contribute now. I am not saying that everyone must join a group, but it would be cool to have non-members show up to work parties. They are always welcome. We have hikers and equestrians show up to our organized work parties in the Tillamook on a regular basis.

    It also seems ironic that so many people view NWTA in a negative light since Scappoose would have never been developed had it not been for members of the NWTA. I think we owe a lot to those people that made it happen and continue to keep it open.
    Hi Hydro!

    My opinion: even if NWTA is doing okay these days (and that's a different discussion), there's the old saying (from Deming, I believe?): A thousand "at-a-boys" equals one "aw ****". Me-thinks NeWTa may have a few more make-up at-a-boys to go ...

    [Edit: LOL! mtbr cleaned up my quote for me. Thanks! (I think)]
    The Lee-Man

    A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire

  8. #8
    troubled economist
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    Well, my point is, let's all try to be stewards of the trails we ride. If you're a rider who rides at Scappoose, please respect the land manager's wishes and try to educate those who you meet, even if you perceive they don't care.

    Yeah, it kinda sucks when someone gives you attitude when you tell them how it's important not to park in front of the gate, for example, but I think each of us that's informed should speak up for the cause, whether it's Scappoose/WRT/NUT/Black Rock/MRT or whether you're a member of a cycling organization (NWTA/Pedal Nation/WTF/etc.) or not.

    Each one of us can do their part for the trails. Thanks.

  9. #9
    Obviously Single
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    I think it's great if those that ride out there try to inform those that seem not to care.

    But, to be honest, it seems a little unfair if the land manager expects NWTA to police the area at night. Come on! Maybe when they put up the 10-ft fence and give NWTA the key that would be fair.

    P.S. I think Davey's idea of putting up signs might be your best (only) bet.
    The Lee-Man

    A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire

  10. #10
    troubled economist
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeMan
    P.S. I think Davey's idea of putting up signs might be your best (only) bet.
    Improving the relationship between the land manager and the cycling community is an active topic for NWTA currently. Improving the communication to the user groups via better signage is one of the things that I'd like to see come out of that. The current all-weather signs states allowed and disallowed uses pretty clearly, with the glaring exception of the prohibition of night-use.

    As far as policing, it seems that the local sheriff is keeping an eye out for after-hours "trespassers" and has given warnings to users at the gates. So just relaying the message to keep everyone informed. Thanks for helping out.

  11. #11
    Metalheadbikerider
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    Hey Nony (and others)

    As a newly elected NWTA board member I would love to hear your suggestions/concerns for the organization, and any ways you feel we can help to get others on board and move forward as a unified voice for mountain biking. Please email me at brian@nw-trail.org
    (or PM me on this site) And please ask others to do the same. I feel the group is fully committed to listening to all mtb'ers and figuring out ways to meet all of our needs. I also feel that if people are unhappy with the organization that the best thing to do is get involved and create the change you want to see. Now is the time. There are a lot of ways to be involved and make a difference. New committees are being formed, and the structure of the organization is evolving.

    Cheers,
    Brian
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  12. #12
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    I think we owe a lot to those people that made it happen and continue to keep it open.
    For active riders in the community like you and I, your comments sound very normal, encourage trail advocacy.

    But to the average mtn biker-joe, I've been told that, "you owe" comments sounds very pretentious when preaching under the NWTA banner.

    To a degree, I understand this complaint, seems like every correspondence from NWTA is about Powell Butte committee/trail building committee, followed up by, "you owe/you need to join us" comments. Preaching by association of guilt sometimes creates animosity towards NWTA and does more damage to the image of mtn biking than it helps.

    Most people who mtn bike just simply want to ride 1st with trail advocacy down on their list somewhere. I'm not saying this point of view is mine or is correct, I'm just hearing this from people who I encourage to join NWTA but tend to shy away from the invitation.
    Last edited by nony; 12-22-2009 at 05:41 PM.

  13. #13
    I got nothin'
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    I understand the point

    Nony, I understand your point. What I don't understand is when people criticize but don't get involved or offer suggestions that help. It tends to rub me the wrong way when someone criticizes the efforts of volunteers who are passionate about their sport and are attempting to do what they think is the right thing. It's not isolated to MTB'ers, I have seen this in other organizations that I am involved in such as the PTA at my kids school and professional organizations.

    I don't expect everyone to get involved, we all have a lot going on in our lives. We all have to pick and choose how we spend our time. But, it would be cool to see most do one thing a year to give back to the sport to keep it alive, or at least conduct themselves in a manner that doesn't set the rest of us back.

    In the case of Scappoose, I am concerned that we could lose access. I don't know the land manager there, but my impression is that they really don't want to have to deal with any B.S. Who could blame them, they are trying to make a living while their industry is falling off of a cliff.

    I will bring up your point with people in the NWTA and let them know about the perception. I assure you that they are passionate and their intent is only positive.

    Leeman, stop using potty words on the forums The moderator might put you in time-out

    Free-agent.... it's cool to see you on the NWTA board. I hope to see you a meeting soon, my job has me out of town at the end of the month lately so I haven't been around the monthly beer drinking night......I mean organization meeting.
    I ride at ludicrous speed

  14. #14
    highly visible
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent
    As a newly elected NWTA board member ...
    Congratulations, by the way!
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  15. #15
    Metalheadbikerider
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    Thanks Glowboy

    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy
    Congratulations, by the way!
    Hopefully see you on the trails sometime soon.
    Cheers!
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  16. #16
    Metalheadbikerider
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    Sounds good.

    See ya soon, at a meeting or on the trail. And thanks.
    Cheers!
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  17. #17
    Metalheadbikerider
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    Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by nony
    For active riders in the community like you and I, your comments sound very normal, encourage trail advocacy.

    But to the average mtn biker-joe, I've been told that, "you owe" comments sounds very pretentious when preaching under the NWTA banner.

    To a degree, I understand this complaint, seems like every correspondence from NWTA is about Powell Butte committee/trail building committee, followed up by, "you owe/you need to join us" comments. Preaching by association of guilt sometimes creates animosity towards NWTA and does more damage to the image of mtn biking than it helps.

    Most people who mtn bike just simply want to ride 1st with trail advocacy down on their list somewhere. I'm not saying this point of view is mine or is correct, I'm just hearing this from people who I encourage to join NWTA but tend to shy away from the invitation.
    As primarily an advocacy group our goal is increased and improved trail access, and continued stewardship of trails The only way we make this happen is by getting the necessary information out to the members to solicit their help. I went back and reread the latest correspondences on the facebook and website pages, and couldn't find examples of what you are describing nony. Please help me out and point me to some examples (and any suggestions you may have for better communication) and I will get it to the appropriate person(s). Thanks again for the helpful feedback.
    One way we have responded to criticisms about our communication is by doing the monthly e-newsletter. It gives much more information about what is happening, and goes beyond the usual "help us do trailwork." You can sign up for that on the website if you are interested.
    As far as not wanting to do trailwork, I completely understand! It's hard to find the time to do it, and no one likes giving up valuable riding time. That being said, there are other ways to be involved, and every little bit helps. People can pay the $30 (or more) to join NWTA/IMBA. Membership numbers are very important, as are the dollars, for getting things accomplished. People can write letters, fill out feedback forms, attend meetings, etc. And maybe most importantly, people can use their voices to support our cause and organization. We can use all the positive public vibes and support we can get.
    If you and your riding buddies would like to hear more about what is happening, and voice your concerns about the organization, I'd be happy to buy you all a couple of pitchers of beer (or soda) and hang out. Just let me know and we can arrange a time and place to meet.
    Cheers and happy holidays!
    Brian
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  18. #18
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    free-agent, You described NWTA just right, you are an advocacy group, not a ride group. Most people want to ride, but sometimes your own event calender has more trail-building events than it has ride events.

    Your marketing is all backwards, IMHO. People get into mtn biking first to ride, then as they mature into the sport, turn to advocacy to enhance the sport. This was the case for me, and many other folks I have known in this sport. Without supporting rides as a primary reason to join the group, you can't create a solid base for advocacy.

    I think we can all agree that the minority is responsible for advocacy. The majority wants to ride. If that is the case, then why is the club spending so much time and energy on advocacy? My answer is because advocacy is VERY important. However, if the club wants more people to join, then maybe MWTA should cater to something that appeals to the masses and newbies, ride events. Lure them in by offering epic rides, keep them with advocacy.

    Heck, even your meetings have turned into advocacy, and not about planning the next great ride.

    Again, just my opinion based on reasons I hear people not wanting to join NWTA. People just want to ride, and not have to feel guilted into trail building. They can just as well ride on their own.
    Last edited by nony; 12-23-2009 at 12:56 PM.

  19. #19
    meatier showers
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    There's something to this... the Disciples of Dirt is a ride group... always has been... and is very popular and fun.

    That said, there are DOD members who have passion for advocacy (many, in fact). They carry the advocacy torch and many times these folks wish that more DOD members would join their ranks. But until others do, they do the work of many. We can't make others have passion for anything they don't have passion for on their own.

    Different people have different interests. Nothing wrong with an advocacy group. Nothing wrong with a ride group. Meanwhile, members of each group may find themselves thinking their position is more righteous. Or simply not care.

    Thank goodness there are both types of people and organizations. Time will tell which group will be longest lived. And which will contribute the most.

    --Sparty
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
    Jaybo... quit *****ing and move to Texas

  20. #20
    Metalheadbikerider
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    Actually....

    NWTA is both an advocacy and ride group. I focused on the advocacy side of things since that is what this thread was about, advocacy and Scappoose. There are many who join the group solely for the riding aspect, and that is fantastic. After all, our mission statement is:
    We advocate for trail access.
    We promote responsible mountain biking.
    We build and maintain sustainable trails.
    We love riding them.
    That is what I view as the strength of the organization, there are many different ways to be involved.
    You're right about the lack of rides being advertised, but right now is not a good time to look at the website for rides given the time of year it is. As Summer approaches (and the number of trails in the area continues to increase) there will be much more group ride opportunities, but we could always use more help in this area.
    Cheers!
    Brian
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  21. #21
    Metalheadbikerider
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    Absolutely Sparty...

    both sides are equally important and necessary. And joining an organization for either aspect increases the membership, and therefore the effectiveness of the group as a whole.
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  22. #22
    troubled economist
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    Quote Originally Posted by nony
    Your marketing is all backwards, IMHO. People get into mtn biking first to ride, then as they mature into the sport, turn to advocacy to enhance the sport. This was the case for me, and many other folks I have known in this sport. Without supporting rides as a primary reason to join the group, you can't create a solid base for advocacy.
    Good feedback nony.

    My experience was completely the opposite, FWIW. I had a group of riding buddies that I did (and still do) most of my riding with... and I had no need for a social riding club. After 10 years of not joining, I joined to become more involved with trail building/maintenance and advocacy, as I saw/heard about some of the projects that NWTA was involved in... things like Forest Park, Gateway Green, etc., and also wanted to give back to the trails I had enjoyed so much.

    Of course, my perspective is from someone who's not new to biking, and it's good to see it from another point of view from time to time, like what you've passed on from others.

    And, although not my intent/reason for getting involved, I've expanded my riding network of both riders and trails thru trailwork-- the "Hide & Seek" trail at the Sandy Ridge Trail System is a good recent example. But I understand how that could be backwards to a new rider, who wants to work when you can ride?

    There are people involved with NWTA who are more into the ride aspect, and are already planning for next year, whether that's Helensfest, Tour de Tillamook, regular rides at Forest Park/Scappoose, or the skills area at Sunday Parkways, or other aspects. Perhaps that message just needs to be broadcast louder and FUNNER.

    (And Scappoose is still closed at night.)

  23. #23
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent
    NWTA is both an advocacy and ride group.
    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent
    ]As primarily an advocacy group our goal is increased and improved trail access, and continued stewardship of trails
    Well, your own quotes say two different things. Which is it?

    The public perception is that you are an advocacy group AND to your own members (me included) most of the club energy has been in advocacy for at least the last few years.

    Sparty is right, DOD has always had the perception of riders and advocates, perfectly balanced. Their hospitality is legendary.

  24. #24
    Metalheadbikerider
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    I agree with you

    Quote Originally Posted by nony
    Well, your own quotes say two different things. Which is it?

    The public perception is that you are an advocacy group AND to your own members (me included) most of the club energy has been in advocacy for at least the last few years.

    Sparty is right, DOD has always had the perception of riders and advocates, perfectly balanced. Their hospitality is legendary.
    on both accounts nony. DOD does it have it dialed in, and they work (and have worked) hard at it. When I first moved to Portland they were the rider group I connected with despite being based in Eugene. They hooked me up with some riders here in PDX who become some of my best riding buds.
    The past two years the focus for NWTA seems to have shifted to primarily advocacy, but I think the riding aspect is still going strong as well. For example, there is a group of people already planning for the epic Mt. Hood ride next Summer. There are other events going on as well, as Toowacky mentioned. It would be great to have your perspective and ideas to help us improve the riding side of the club, and help us figure out how to get new riders in the club and taking active roles in their areas of passion. My invite for a beer (or soda) still stands. I'd love to hear any ideas you may have.
    Happy holidays and thanks for the discussion!
    Last edited by free-agent; 12-24-2009 at 08:08 AM.
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  25. #25
    troubled economist
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    Trails should be money this weekend....

    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent
    My invite for a beer (or soda) still stands.
    Maybe you should change your username from 'free-agent' to 'free-beer'...

    Above all, if you're a Portland-area cyclist and want a good place to ride in the winter, Scappoose has the goods. Definitely enjoy it. I was out there Sunday and the conditions were real good, just a few slick spots, but with this week's weather, the reports are that the trails are close to perfect right now. Perfect xmas present to yourself-- a ride at Scappoose.

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