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  1. #1
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    New COTA signage at Phils... hmmmm

    Does it make anybody else feel like they are driving on the freeway with the big neon signs for road crossing and car crossing points??? I love the new vertical signs, they are great looking. But, call me negative... those neon signs are too much. Almost something Bend Park and Rec would do.

    I think COTA does an awesome job and this is not me bashing them in anyway... just asking what others think about the neon signs.

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    They feel out of place but those are intersections riders blow through all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamRider View Post
    They feel out of place but those are intersections riders blow through all the time.
    Signs won't change that.

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    Anyone have a picture?

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    New COTA signage at Phils... hmmmm-cotasigns.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by shugarbear View Post
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    Good looking signs!! Finishing Phil's tomorrow. Just completed Marvin's today. We have multiple folks working on the signs.
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  7. #7
    Nat
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    Those signs do not offend me. They seem subtle yet noticeable albeit not readable unless you almost stop.

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    From what I understand, the pictures do not show the sign that is potentially offensive. Apparently that sign is located at forest service road crossings. I also think the signs from the pictures look great. Those new sign-posts are awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpryIP View Post
    Apparently that sign is located at forest service road crossings.
    They are similar to the Y sign above but they are bright yellow which draws attention to the upcoming intersection.

  10. #10
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    If the FS road intersection signs are very bright and obvious, that's probably a good thing.

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    I agree. If they prevent even one collision they are worth having.

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    Are the road xing signs the same as the ones on the Kiwa Butte and Dinah Moe Humm trails? If so, they are not offensive at all, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    Are the road xing signs the same as the ones on the Kiwa Butte and Dinah Moe Humm trails? If so, they are not offensive at all, IMO.
    Same yes.

    The question is whether EVERY forest road needs a sign. roads on Kiwa and DMH/Tiddly are hard to see. You go around a tree and suddenly there is a road. Sign good!

    But in Phil's if you see a road from 30 feet away and have good sight lines, is a sign really needed?

    I think that's the question.

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    The answer to that question is probably "yes". I say that because of the large number of people visiting the trails each year that are not aware of the motorized traffic on those fire roads. Its easy to feel like you are in the middle of the forest and forget that trucks are out there.

  15. #15
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    I have a question. At the intersections of roads, is there an additional sign to warn vehicle traffic of potential bicycle cross traffic? I think the signs for bikers are beneficial especially for someone not as familiar with the trails, like myself and a 4-year old rider who understands stopping at street intersections. A sign may provide him a little more understanding of different trail/road uses in the woods. I also think that people driving the roads might like a heads up to watch for trail users.

    On a different note (sorry to hi-jack) any suggestions for an out-and-back, or shortish loop starting from Phil's trail head for a competent 4 year old trail rider who will need a little help on the uphills? I have ridden most of the trails but it's been a while since I was on Phil's, Ben's, Kent's, etc. I can tow him for a while but if there is one that is more consistently a descending grade for the way back, I know he would like it more. Thanks in advance!

  16. #16
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    If nothing else it could be a CYA move. That way if a rider gets into an accident with a vehicle then they (and their lawyer) can't claim that it should have been marked.

    Back in Arizona there was this one trail network that was mostly built and maintained by one man. Well, a teenage boy was riding out there, crashed and broke his collarbone, and his mom wanted to sue the man who built and maintained the trail. This anecdote really has nothing to do with our trail network other than the fact that a lot of people are quick to blame others for their mishaps.

  17. #17
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by scn View Post
    It the intersections of roads, is there an additional sign to warn vehicle traffic of potential bicycle cross traffic?
    It wouldn't matter if there were because those people don't know how to read.

    Calm down, I'm just kidding.


    Quote Originally Posted by scn View Post
    On a different note (sorry to hi-jack) any suggestions for an out-and-back, or shortish loop starting from Phil's trail head for a competent 4 year old trail rider who will need a little help on the uphills? I have ridden most of the trails but it's been a while since I was on Phil's, Ben's, Kent's, etc. I can tow him for a while but if there is one that is more consistently a descending grade for the way back, I know he would like it more. Thanks in advance!
    For a 4-year-old I think Phil's trail to the orange chicken (could be any color right now though – last week it was black skull and cross bones) and back is good. Kids like to play on the chicken mound, and there's also a shortcut down the fire road in case you want to shorten the ride back. Otherwise, Kent' s trail is good.

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    ORS 105.682 - Liabilities of owner of land used by public for recreational purposes, gardening, woodcutting or harvest of special forest products - 2011 Oregon Revised Statutes

    (1) Except as provided by subsection (2) of this section, and subject to the provisions of ORS 105.688 (Applicability of immunities from liability for owner of land), an owner of land is not liable in contract or tort for any personal injury, death or property damage that arises out of the use of the land for recreational purposes, gardening, woodcutting or the harvest of special forest products when the owner of land either directly or indirectly permits any person to use the land for recreational purposes, gardening, woodcutting or the harvest of special forest products. The limitation on liability provided by this section applies if the principal purpose for entry upon the land is for recreational purposes, gardening, woodcutting or the harvest of special forest products, and is not affected if the injury, death or damage occurs while the person entering land is engaging in activities other than the use of the land for recreational purposes, gardening, woodcutting or the harvest of special forest products.

    (2) This section does not limit the liability of an owner of land for intentional injury or damage to a person coming onto land for recreational purposes, gardening, woodcutting or the harvest of special forest products. [1995 c.456 §3; 2009 c.532 §4]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    If nothing else it could be a CYA move. That way if a rider gets into an accident with a vehicle then they (and their lawyer) can't claim that it should have been marked.

    Back in Arizona there was this one trail network that was mostly built and maintained by one man. Well, a teenage boy was riding out there, crashed and broke his collarbone, and his mom wanted to sue the man who built and maintained the trail. This anecdote really has nothing to do with our trail network other than the fact that a lot of people are quick to blame others for their mishaps.
    Excellent point Nat. The signs are necessary at the road crossings. There is no way we are going to make everyone 100% happy. The more frequent riders on our trails will hardly even notice the new signs. Most blend in nicely. We are working to be as minimally invasive as possible. I will be out there today to finish Phil's from the first road crossing to the Helipad. A couple of folks stopped me yesterday to thank us for the signage. Overall, I think it is highly positive. There may be some fine tuning down the road with the road crossing signs as well as our "tree hugger" signs. It is all about being effective and making the experience of mountain biking in Bend a great one for "all" riders.

    Cheers!
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  20. #20
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    Signs are awesome was out there yesterday.

    Only problem I have, is jealousy for new riders, learning the trails. Took me 3 years to figure out where the hell I was going with the wrong direction pointing stupid numbered posts!!!
    Bend, Oregon

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Overall, I think it is highly positive.
    Agreed, although I do think we missed an excellent opportunity to educate riders on 'right of way' which is not mentioned in the new signs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamRider View Post
    Agreed, although I do think we missed an excellent opportunity to educate riders on 'right of way' which is not mentioned in the new signs.
    A small % of the vertical tree huggers have the ROW listed. Granted nobody will ever see it unless they stop and read all 6 stickers...

  23. #23
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    For a 4-year-old I think Phil's trail to the orange chicken (could be any color right now though – last week it was black skull and cross bones) and back is good. Kids like to play on the chicken mound, and there's also a shortcut down the fire road in case you want to shorten the ride back. Otherwise, Kent' s trail is good.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks very much. I think one of those options should be great. It will be Friday mid morning also, so hopefully that will mean less of me having to instruct him to give people some room.

  24. #24
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    New COTA signage at Phils... hmmmm-trail-love.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    A small % of the vertical tree huggers have the ROW listed. Granted nobody will ever see it unless they stop and read all 6 stickers...
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    I have not noticed any stickers with the ROW on it. Why isn't it on this sticker at GS?

    New COTA signage at Phils... hmmmm-gs.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamRider View Post
    I have not noticed any stickers with the ROW on it. Why isn't it on this sticker at GS?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you look closely, you will notice that we mixed up the messages on each sign. We alternated between three different "Trail Love" stickers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scn View Post
    For a 4-year-old I think Phil's trail to the orange chicken (could be any color right now though – last week it was black skull and cross bones) and back is good. Kids like to play on the chicken mound, and there's also a shortcut down the fire road in case you want to shorten the ride back. Otherwise, Kent' s trail is good.
    Thanks very much. I think one of those options should be great. It will be Friday mid morning also, so hopefully that will mean less of me having to instruct him to give people some room.[/QUOTE]

    My kids loved playing on the pump track at Phil's TH after an out and back to the chicken............

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    If you look closely, you will notice that we mixed up the messages on each sign. We alternated between three different "Trail Love" stickers.
    Oh, didn't realize that. Too bad the ROW language isn't on all of them.

    What is really needed is more of these.

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by scn View Post
    Thanks very much. I think one of those options should be great. It will be Friday mid morning also, so hopefully that will mean less of me having to instruct him to give people some room.
    You're very welcome. Between the trailhead and the chicken people are used to seeing little kids by now, and the lines of sight are excellent so no one has any excuse for getting tangled up with a 4 year-old. Have a good time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamRider View Post
    Oh, didn't realize that. Too bad the ROW language isn't on all of them.

    What is really needed is more of these.

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    Good suggestion. We will discuss this. Might be good on sections that are commonly a challenge (i.e. Phil's Canyon).

    I just finished the lower sections of Phil's today. Just need to finish up the Helipad. About 25 riders stopped and said thanks. All of their feedback was positive about the signage. Just outstanding.
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  31. #31
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    RE: New COTA signage at Phils... hmmmm

    I dig the neon. Reminds me of the 80's.

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    hopefully nobody takes offense to the thread, it was just a question I had. I think of the trails as a place to go and escape... so the question came to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shugarbear View Post
    hopefully nobody takes offense to the thread, it was just a question I had. I think of the trails as a place to go and escape... so the question came to mind.
    No offense taken, my friend!

    But there is a reason I'll only ride the Phil's area in the spring and very, very late fall! This sort of encapsulates that reason.

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    All this hubbub over signs. There's only one solution. I'm going to have to make another trip to Bend to see for myself!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    No offense taken, my friend!

    But there is a reason I'll only ride the Phil's area in the spring and very, very late fall! This sort of encapsulates that reason.
    These are the same signs that you see in the Wanoga Area as well as coming soon to other trails & areas in Bend. The feedback we have received thus far is for the most part very positive. No doubt there will be fine tuning in certain areas over time. The COTA Sign Committee intends to review the signage as part of our quality control process now that we are almost complete with the deployment. Thanks for the feedback in this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    These are the same signs that you see in the Wanoga Area as well as coming soon to other trails & areas in Bend. The feedback we have received thus far is for the most part very positive. No doubt there will be fine tuning in certain areas over time. The COTA Sign Committee intends to review the signage as part of our quality control process now that we are almost complete with the deployment. Thanks for the feedback in this thread.
    I meant I rarely ride here due to the crowds and families and soccer moms and tourists and the "freeway" feel of the area. I've nothing against the signs itself. Signage is good

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    I meant I rarely ride here due to the crowds and families and soccer moms and tourists and the "freeway" feel of the area. I've nothing against the signs itself. Signage is good
    Agreed. Phil's gets filled.... That being said, it is great to have an area that is close to town that provides an opportunity for newbies to ride and for frequent riders to get in their fitness rides. Nice and easy. At certain times, the Phil's network is actually quite empty. It all depends on when you ride.
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  38. #38
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    Even at its busiest, it is still totally awesome. Even with neon signs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    ... quality control process ...
    I LOL'd

    Seriously, thanks for the feedback folks. This stuff is read by people who decide these matters.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

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    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    I LOL'd

    Seriously, thanks for the feedback folks. This stuff is read by people who decide these matters.
    Thanks Sans!! COTA does have "Quality Control"...
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    There might be 30 cars at the trailhead, and I might pass 2 people on a ride that same time. Thats a busy day at the trailhead, but not "busy" in my opinion. I like getting out away up higher when I can, and I enjoy chatting with people and being down on the lower trails often. Variety....
    Bend, Oregon

  42. #42
    Nat
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    Does anyone want to talk about etiquette when being overtaken from behind? It seems simple enough to me -- if one minute no one was behind you then the next minute someone is there, then they are going faster than you and probably would like to pass at some point.

    The way I see it, courtesy would call for the person in front to let the faster rider pass as soon as possible as long as it's safe, right? Now I'm far from the fastest guy in Bend but when I feel like it I can average above 12mph over the course of a two hour ride so I'm not the slowest guy either, and lately I've been finding myself behind people who don't want to skootch over or make any adjustment at all even after I've politely announced my presence. I end up just finding a wide-ish spot and sprinting by, sometimes to the sound of the other person grumbling about it.

    When someone else catches up to me, I move over to the edge of the trail to invite them to pass. Sometimes I flick my elbow to signal "go for it" a la road riding. On occasion I'll even stop and put a foot down so they can get by quickly.

    What's been your guy's experience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Does anyone want to talk about etiquette when being overtaken from behind? It seems simple enough to me -- if one minute no one was behind you then the next minute someone is there, then they are going faster than you and probably would like to pass at some point.

    The way I see it, courtesy would call for the person in front to let the faster rider pass as soon as possible as long as it's safe, right? Now I'm far from the fastest guy in Bend but when I feel like it I can average above 12mph over the course of a two hour ride so I'm not the slowest guy either, and lately I've been finding myself behind people who don't want to skootch over or make any adjustment at all even after I've politely announced my presence. I end up just finding a wide-ish spot and sprinting by, sometimes to the sound of the other person grumbling about it.

    When someone else catches up to me, I move over to the edge of the trail to invite them to pass. Sometimes I flick my elbow to signal "go for it" a la road riding. On occasion I'll even stop and put a foot down so they can get by quickly.

    What's been your guy's experience?
    Same. Actually really pisses me off. Especially when the rider ahead has headphones on and chooses not to listen. I rarely get passed, but when I do, I am super courteous.

    I literally hunt down the rude idiots and then pass them!! They almost always make a frustrated sound. It is not a race folks.... I am always faster...;-). Especially on a climb!!
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    I politely announce my presence and ask if I can pass. Unfortunately music can be a problem with that.

    When I hear a rider behind I pull over and let them pass. I don't like having someone right off my rear wheel.

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    I haven't noticed much trouble with this personally.

    Maybe I'm too slow.

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    I hate people who ride with music. There I said it. Your best defense for not getting run into is hearing the other person coming down the trail. Don't even start about riding in control. Have nice day.

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    I usually just throw a nice "Hey there" out, and give them a second to pull over. On descents, I usually only have problems with younger teens with egos. I've only had to blurt out, "get out of the way please" a couple times over a few years.

    If I'm getting close to the trailhead or a known wide section, I just hang back 40' and wait.
    Bend, Oregon

  48. #48
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    I have no problem letting people pass on a climb and am willing to pull over and stop to let them. A greeting or request to pass is always a good idea as the leading/slower rider might not hear the following rider. Happened to me Saturday while climbing up Funner. I pulled over to check on my riding partner who was a little ways behind and got passed by another climbing rider like I was standing still (ok I was standing still, but even if I was pedaling it would have been almost the same speed difference). I had no idea he was there. He was polite as he passed, but I felt bad about possibly holding him up and being clueless to his presence. A simple hello would have got me to the side more quickly. No offense would be taken at "hey, can I pass?"

    For descents, I like to take a break prior to starting to give any riders ahead some distance so I don't end up right behind them. Of course it happens sometimes but it is easy to pull over and take a short break to get that distance back or pass if they offer. Same goes if someone catches up on a descent. When possible I will always let a faster rider pass. It is a nice carrot to try and catch.

    On another note, I took my 4-year old from Phil's trailhead to the chicken and back on Friday. Great route and the signs with a picture of a truck at the road crossings made him stop to wait for me and look both ways. Great signage, thanks! I don't think I saw signage for vehicles to see a trail crossing coming up. That would be a nice addition also, but maybe COTA doesn't have authority to sign Forest Service roads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scn View Post
    I don't think I saw signage for vehicles to see a trail crossing coming up. That would be a nice addition also, but maybe COTA doesn't have authority to sign Forest Service roads.
    That is a very good idea.

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    I road/trail crossing sign makes way more sense on the road. But then people shoot at it.

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