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  1. #1
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    Moving to Portland

    Ladies and gents,

    I started applying for work in Portland (mechanical engineer). I currently live in Ogden UT.

    I'm not a die hard mountain biker, but I do like to ride. If I was die hard, I'd just stay here. However, Utah doesn't have a lot of culture. When I was extremely outdoorsy for a few years, it was great. Now, I'm finding myself in a mode of life where all I want to do is grow myself professionally while staying in shape.

    I do a lot of woodworking / welding and I need a 2 car garage. I'd like to stay below $250k. Looking at Zillow, the houses I see are East of the river (near Powell park).

    My question to you guys (and I'll obviously need to visit before making final plans):

    What areas should I looking at if I'd like a 2 car garage, reasonable priced house near-ish trails? (20 minute drive max would be ideal. Ride from your front door would be excellent, obviously)

    Cheers,

  2. #2
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    There's lots of threads about how miserable it is to try to ride your mountain bike in Portland.

    What's new and something to be a little more positive about is I'm hearing some good things about the plans out at Gateway Green now that construction of trails has started, particularly from trail builder Jason Wells on social media talking about actual jump lines once the green/multiuse paths are done.
    Last edited by tbmaddux; 05-12-2017 at 04:18 PM. Reason: ok so I linked to some threads.

  3. #3
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    I'll second tbmaddux re: difficulty of mountain biking in Portland. It's not just the trail access issues but you really must have a willingness to embrace mud riding. Some like it, some don't. When I lived there I was in the latter category but all that mud introduced me to the awesomeness of singlespeeding.

    About housing, also keep in mind the market there is seriously overheated. Cash offers above the list price are common. When I moved away two years ago my house sold the second day on the market for way more money than I thought it was worth.

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    The only place that meets those criteria is around Powell Butte. Everything else is either farther from trails or farther from Portland.

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    I personally would NOT advise anybody move to Gresham. It's got culture alright. You could possibility find that price point in St Johns and have access to forest park.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Holy crap. Your city hates mountain biking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I personally would NOT advise anybody move to Gresham. It's got culture alright. You could possibility find that price point in St Johns and have access to forest park.
    Very true, I forget about St Johns. Much better option than going east or west. It's not any harder to get to, it's just in a stranger direction.

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    $250k in ST. Johns is not gonna get a place you'd want to live in. A serious fixer-upper at best.

    2 or 3 rides in Forest Park and you'll be bored out of your mind. Scappoose trails are about 20 minutes away but access is questionable due to landowner requiring "permits". It's all been logged over in the last few years anyway and was only sorta good prior to logging. Haven't been out there for a few years so maybe it's better? Seriously, from pretty much anywhere in the Portland metro area it's an hour drive to ride
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    You will find nothing in Portland for that price that isn't a dump. For what you are looking for in Portland.... 350-400. An hour drive east or west is also the norm for any real mt biking. Stay in Utah.

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    I would not move here. The "Bay Area" relocated up here and it is not Portland anymore.
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  11. #11
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    It is definitely not Portland anymore. Can't wait to get out of here, will be relocating over winter. To that, good luck with what used to be an hour drive. You could spend that just trying to get out of town now, or back in.

    Not sure how far you may need to drive for work OP, but you could try looking east out on 26, Sandy, Rhododendron etc. Unfortunately that's turning into a major choke point for traffic too.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  12. #12
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    Yes, I think Corvallis and Eugene down south from Portland are better places to perhaps live and ride. I am a native Portlander who hits the trails about 3-4x/wk year round, but not without a lot of mileage and fuss to get out of town. Fortunately, I work 4x10's and have a cool wife who works from home for extra kid duty so that helps. Yes, this is a different town than before, more for worse I think as well. Was fine about 10-15yrs ago when people were coming here from different parts of the country and newer businesses were opening up. In the past few years it is getting compounded from Californians retiring or younger folk looking for the "weird life" that offer very little to the town, other than more congestion and limited parking. I aspire to leave as well as soon as the kids are older and I can possibly retire. Or at very least to snowbird to get the f*ck out. Sorry, but past few years has made this town more so not ideal to live and get around in and sadly only to get worse as older buildings and homes are demolished to make way for more condos and apartment complexes.
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    I will need to visit before I really judge, but from the complaints I am hearing I think many of you should check out Ogden or slc.

    It might fit your bill

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    I would leave if I could. I have family here though. Portlands sucks!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihearttwowheels View Post
    I will need to visit before I really judge, but from the complaints I am hearing I think many of you should check out Ogden or slc.

    It might fit your bill

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    Check out the neighborhood near Gateway Green. It is a new ride spot opening up in June. Not sure what housing is like, but it will be the best in town riding. It is also a ride up the 205 bike path to the Springwater bike path out to Powell Butte. That and you are on the side of town that is closest to Sandy Ridge making that a shorter drive.

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    We've been here a year now and love it. Coming from Vegas it was definitely a lifestyle change but well worth it. The traffic does suck but its all relative much better than when we lived in California. I do not advise buying as mentioned by everyone else. The market is off the charts right now. We are renting a townhouse and it's a $1000 more than we paid for a house in vegas. We are also in a prime location in Beaverton which doesn't help. Absolutely love it here and wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Check it out for yourself.
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  17. #17
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    That's good to hear that someone likes Portland, I was starting to think I was crazy.

    I do a lot of woodworking / fab work (making small money on the side), so I'd REALLY like to have a garage (with 220v). It looks like there is some options to work with community type shops. Maybe not all is lost.

    The market here has gone way up recently as well. I bought my house for 130k and it is worth 200k now.. crazy.


    We'll see what happens. I'm also looking at work in SLC in order to see if maybe the culture down there is a lot better (I'm thinking it is).

    Thanks again for all insights!

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    I also do woodworking on the side. We found a townhouse here in progress ridge with a two car. We lucked out for sure.

    When you come down let me know and we can get together. Love it here and the people.
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  19. #19
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    I've lived here for almost 20 years, and despite the massive change that has occurred over that time (some bad, lots good) I can't imagine living in any other city at our age (43 year with a 7 year old son). Great riding in every direction, best beer city in the nation, good food, great live music scene, etc. And all within biking distance (except the really good riding, of course). I love being relatively near the mts and ocean, as well.
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  20. #20
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    As a native Portlander who lived in SLC for a few years, Salt Lake proper has all the "culture" Portland does with way better riding. As long as you can stand the Utah politics and dominant cultural influence, I wouldn't leave Utah for Portland unless you either have a better job bringing you here and/or riding and skiing are way down your priority list. Summers here are spectacular though and weekend trips to Bend, Hood River, and the Coast are great for an outdoor fix.

    Portland is a fun town, but the mountain biking, skiing, proximity to the outdoors, and weather all suck compared to the Wasatch Front unless you like driving 1-2 hours each way (can be a lot more with traffic). If you live on the west side you do have close access to Forest Park, which is boring but still riding, and Stubb Stewart and Tillamook Forest would be about 35-45 mins drive to the trail head. Not going to find much for $250k though. Maybe way out in Forest Grove or Banks which would put you a lot closer to riding and the ocean.

    Not sure which is worse, the mountain bike politics in Portland or the religion politics in Utah. As my very liberal friend from Colorado once eloquently put it, you know you're in too liberal of a town when mountain biking is an environmental problem.

  21. #21
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    Born and raised here in Portland (over 40 years). I think the city reached a tipping point 10-15 years ago. Now there is way too much traffic, density, and the cost of housing is absurd. In short, it's been ruined. All the transplants moving here are the single greatest contributing factor to why I can't stand it here anymore. Job and family keep me here, but I dream on an almost daily basis of when I can leave.

    Not that I'm trying to convince you to not move here. It might be a great fit for you. But Portland simply isn't what it's made out to be, IMHO. I wouldn't recommend you move here sight unseen, especially if you are into the outdoors (as already mentioned, the mtb scene in Portland proper is pathetic).

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    Check out the neighborhood near Gateway Green.
    Article about it in the Portland Tribune yesterday.

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    Sweet!
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbmaddux View Post
    3 miles of glorified BMX park. Meh.
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  25. #25
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    I'd move out of the Portland area if I could. Maybe even the state. The only other area I'd be interested in moving to would be Bend.

  26. #26
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    Portland is great if you don't mind traffic congestion, high taxes and driving an hour or more to get to trails.

    Buy my house, it's only a 1x garage but it's extra deep, has 3 220 outlets and a dozen other 4 gang 110 outlets. I've got a 3.5 ton lathe and 1.5 ton mill in here with my welder, a 1800lb alignment table, a 3'x4'x4" slab of granite inspection plate and Festool stuff. Only 40 min to Sandy Ridge from here.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil'stink View Post
    Born and raised here in Portland (over 40 years). I think the city reached a tipping point 10-15 years ago. Now there is way too much traffic, density, and the cost of housing is absurd. In short, it's been ruined. All the transplants moving here are the single greatest contributing factor to why I can't stand it here anymore. Job and family keep me here, but I dream on an almost daily basis of when I can leave.

    Not that I'm trying to convince you to not move here. It might be a great fit for you. But Portland simply isn't what it's made out to be, IMHO. I wouldn't recommend you move here sight unseen, especially if you are into the outdoors (as already mentioned, the mtb scene in Portland proper is pathetic).
    Stupid transplants ruining everything! Oh shit, that's me. Stupid traffic congestion! Oh shit, that's me.
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    lil' stink is 100% correct. This was a great place to live. The Bozo Bay Area imprint on this town has been suffocating, as well as gentrifying to the extent that anyone who was here 30 years ago agrees. The food is not better. Higgins, Ringside, Genoa, and so many more establishments were taking care of "us" with no concern about making it to the restaurant on time. The Portland Public School system has certainly NOT improved either. Oh, don't forget the funny, but sad part. There is still zero mountain biking in Portland and 14' of trail at Gateway Green does not really count. Portlandia and Google can go f$ck themselves asap. I don't care for the cheap looking apartments springing up either. How many out of state developers are involved in that B.S.? It was so much better. The homeless issue has been poorly handled and now we are buried in their garbage...literally buried. Disgusted and still without singletrack. People can camp in the middle of Naito Blvd., but I cannot mountain bike legally.
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  29. #29
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    I hear ya. We have been here 19 years and just bought a small forest service cabin on Hood in order to escape from time to time. And it's not just due to the people moving here (of which I am one, of course), but the fact that the city has become a much larger tourist destination. Thankfully, I have the Belmont Station a short ten minute walk from my house.
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  30. #30
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    I'll move from the Portland area when I have the opportunity. I just got back from Bend again. There is so much to do out there. I get back home and I honestly feel a little trapped in what this area has become. It's a place where my job is but there's nothing to do here without jumping in your vehicle and getting out of the area.

    Bend may very well be the place to move for me. To have trails at your doorstep would be a godsend. Not to mention China Hat and 4 Corners for dirt biking, Bachelor for MTB and snowboarding, Adv riding out there with all that BLM land, hiking with the fam, rafting the Deschutes, fishing when I can't do anything but hold a drool cup etc.

    But if you feel like like camping, Portland is awesome lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge View Post
    Portland is great if you don't mind traffic congestion, high taxes and driving an hour or more to get to trails.

    Buy my house, it's only a 1x garage but it's extra deep, has 3 220 outlets and a dozen other 4 gang 110 outlets. I've got a 3.5 ton lathe and 1.5 ton mill in here with my welder, a 1800lb alignment table, a 3'x4'x4" slab of granite inspection plate and Festool stuff. Only 40 min to Sandy Ridge from here.
    You had me at Festool.

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    I agree with most of the others. I moved here from Colorado for school. The outdoor opportunities (while better than a lot of places in the US) are far worse than the Rockies.

    My wife is a real estate agent, and honestly you'll be very hard pressed to find anything that isn't a pretty substantial fixer in Portland proper (or really most of the metro area). The real estate market here really has blown up. For instance we bought our house at the bottom in 2011 for $126K. My wife feels very confident we will get over $350K when we sell it later this year.

    If you're willing to spend a little bit more on a house, the area around Powell Butte would fit your bill. The riding on Powell Butte isn't technical at all, but it's good for fitness and at least gets you into the woods on some dirt. Also stay relatively dry through the winter and is mostly under cover for when its hot. This is also in the center one of the lowest income areas of town, so you will get more house for your money, and can even get a little bit more lot size. That also means that the commute is going to be longer if you work in/near downtown.

    I agree with a previous poster that unless you have a really compelling job option here, I wouldn't recommend the move just for "culture".

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    Come to the Bay Area! We have lots of culture! Houses with 2 car garages ... you're looking at 1.5 mill easy. 1200 ft2' starter homes with no garages go for $800+ here. And yes, I'm leaving. But not for Portland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge View Post
    Portland is great if you don't mind traffic congestion, high taxes and driving an hour or more to get to trails.
    ... And transients, and massive amount of busy-bodies, and expensive everything, and holes in the road everywhere, and parking is getting horrible, and my property taxes just hit $5600 annually.

    Quote Originally Posted by smudge View Post
    Buy my house, it's only a 1x garage but it's extra deep, has 3 220 outlets and a dozen other 4 gang 110 outlets. I've got a 3.5 ton lathe and 1.5 ton mill in here with my welder, a 1800lb alignment table, a 3'x4'x4" slab of granite inspection plate and Festool stuff. Only 40 min to Sandy Ridge from here.
    I'm in the heart of Hawthorne. A highly desired prospect for those moving from outerspace. Right now, I could sell my home at $710k, easily. 5bd rm, 2 bath, large carriage garage, full basement, central air, beautiful floral and food garden. Chickens.
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    Hmm... well you certainly have me re-thinking it.

    Why are you guys sticking around? I was in Houston for 4 years. Really didn't fit me. I didn't like it all. I moved and couldn't be happier about that decision.

    Whether I found my end place to live is (as you can see by thread) up in the air, but I definitely made a huge step in the right direction.

    I don't mean to get sidetracked with impractical, motivational quotes crap, but seriously: you guys should move.

  36. #36
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    There is a lot to dislike about the Portland area, outrageous home prices being near the top of the list. If you can't get Oregon off your radar I'd say look at Bend and the surrounding area. Thirty minutes outside of town the homes are much more affordable. The outdoor activities within a short drive are worth it alone. If I didn't have family near Portland I would be there or Colorado. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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    How is the Vancouver side near the port? Industrial and cheaper housing?

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxmark View Post
    ... And transients, and massive amount of busy-bodies, and expensive everything, and holes in the road everywhere, and parking is getting horrible, and my property taxes just hit $5600 annually.

    I'm in the heart of Hawthorne. A highly desired prospect for those moving from outerspace. Right now, I could sell my home at $710k, easily. 5bd rm, 2 bath, large carriage garage, full basement, central air, beautiful floral and food garden. Chickens.


    Just remember that that would cost a couple million in the SF BA - that's why they're still coming. I'm truly sorry to hear that PDX is assed-out, I had some great adventures there in the 80s and 90s. R.I.P. Pig Champion

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    My friends say The 'Couv is getting overrun, too, but apparently there are advantages to living across the river in Wa.
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    Haha, another "Portland MTBing sucks" thread and it has sucked me in. Everything that's been said about mountain biking in and around Portland is true. There's very little in the metro area: a couple miles of singletrack on Powell Butte that are offlimits when wet, 1/3 mile of singletrack and 27 miles of dirt roads in Forest Park, and Gateway Green. I haven't ridden GG yet, but will be checking it out later this weekend.

    Other than that, you need to drive. Depending on what part of town you're in, the real singletrack starts 45-60 min away. If you're willing to go 2-3 hours the amount of riding grows beyond exponentially, and is really great.

    To answer the question above, YES Portland hates mountain biking! It's not for lack of trying by local clubs, but this is part of the culture of the Northwest: hiking is by far the #1 recreational activity (surpassing softball or bowling), and the hiking clubs are all powerful. They cut their teeth and galvanized themselves in the epic logging wars of the 70s, 80s and 90s, so there's always a righteous indignation to their opposition to MTB trails, as if we're the new chainsaws in the woods. So whenever we try to work with local parks departments to build trails close to home, there's opposition and we usually lose.

    Does Portland suck? Absolutely not. Sure, it's suddenly gotten expensive and congested (exactly what I moved there to escape when I left Seattle in the late 90s, I guess about the same time Brian arrived in Portland), and there's no local mountain biking, the racial history is truly deplorable, and a lot of people are incredibly judgmental of others' lifestyles. But all that doesn't mean it isn't still a great city. More restaurants per capita than anywhere but NYC, plus 600 food carts, a dozen old movie theaters still thriving, lots of street life, highest bike-commute rate in the country.

    Still, as many people have talked about moving away, I've actually gone and done it. Two years ago my wife and I moved to Minneapolis, partly for her career. Only major downsides have been that MN drivers are serious a-holes, people can be seriously passive-aggressive in general, and Lyme disease is endemic. We have 13 MTB trail systems, nearly 100 miles' worth, IN the metro area, compared to Portland's 5 or so miles. More than of these are within a reasonable riding distance of my house, so I've only driven from my house to go MTBing twice since we moved. Not to mention 100 miles of protected bikeways in the city of Minneapolis alone (many hundreds across the entire metro area), again compared with a fraction of that in Portland. Despite the flat-cornfields image of the midwest (we're actually in the forest zone, just EAST of the prairie), we have way more nature and wildlife in town than Portland, a much stronger job market, way lower cost of living, tons of sun (especially in the winter!), and even the notorious winters haven't been bad at all due to - for better or worse - climate change, which is VERY real in the upper Midwest.

    I love Portland, and I'm blessed to still travel there frequently for work (including right now), but I do not regret our move at all. If your career demands that you be in a major metro area, Portland is still probably the best one on the west coast in terms of jobs/cost of living (Seattle pays a bit more, but is FAR more expensive, and you can pretty much forget about anywhere in CA unless maybe you're comfortable sweating it out in Sacramento). But putting that in perpsective: if you want a decent standard of living, the west coast is not a good place to be.

    My wife has been talking about this a lot since we moved. She was born and raised in the Seattle area, but now she can't stop talking about underrated and "undiscovered" (by the outside world) the midwest is. At least our corner of it. We've visited lots of smaller cities now (Sioux Falls, Des Moines, Madison, Appleton, Fargo, Rochester, Duluth, Rapid City), and with only one exception (milwaukee, which is beautiful but has some serious, serious problems) they're all lovely places with surprisingly lively street life and arts scenes, progressive outlooks, strong job markets and low housing costs.

    I know Utah has its cultural challenges if you're an ... um, gentile ... but at least SLC is the radical fringe of Utah, such as it is, and it is a real city with a strong economy, decent cost of living, big mountains rising from the edge of town and lots of riding nearby. It's possible that could be a better move for you.

    Now that I have moved, by the way, I'll stop keeping quiet about the #2 city on our list: we almost ended up moving to Boise. I know it's gotten more expensive lately, but that is happening everywhere. My wife and I have always referred to Boise as "Bend, with jobs." As in, "hey, let's go to Bend, With Jobs, this weekend." Central Oregon is beautiful, but in the long run the economy has always sucked unless you're in construction. Boise has a sunny climate (yes, it's perpetually around 100 in the summer, but at least it's a dry heat) and gets real snow too, which to me approaches the ideal. The amount of riding nearby is staggering, but as a capital (albeit a small one) and the state's main city it has a decent, stable job base. The culture of Idaho may pose its challenges if you're challenged by Utah's culture, but at least (like SLC) Boise is the radical fringe of its state. It's also very bike-friendly, and is still the only major city in the country with the famous Idaho Stop Law. We might still retire there.
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    Very informative post there Glowboy....even though I disagree with the general assessment of Portland as a great city that lacks mountain biking. My daughter went to UP so I was in Portland 2-3 times per year and what you probably saw in Milwaukee, I see in Portland. Aside from the hideous traffic, Portland (via their incompetent city government) has some of their own serious problems due to their "let people do whatever they want and don't enforce any laws" mentality. On the flip side, my son went to Boise State and we have relatives farther north in Idaho so I've spent even more time there. Boise is a very clean city, so clean I couldn't believe it on my 1st visit...I was also expecting Boise to look like Sun Valley, surrounded by trees for miles. It used to be a nearly perfect city but traffic is definitely on the rise there too but they have room to expand so it should never get like Portland. It does get hot but that river running right thru town is great for cooling down. Comparatively speaking, Boise is still bargain city and doesn't have 1/100th of the issue that Portland has LET itself become.
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    The entire PNW has become a shit show, this is not exclusive to Portland.

  43. #43
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    Funny, I just got back from 7 days of visiting family in Wisco and it is the first time in 20 years I have felt a "pull" to go back. Or maybe it was a slight "push" from the current scene in PDX. I love Milwaukee (and Madison) and could see myself there at some point, but there are huge drawbacks to that city (as there are for just about every city I guess). There is very little mtb'ing nearby, and what there is doesn't even come remotely close to what we have within an hour of Portland. The humidity sucks. The bugs are horrendous. The winters can be tough if you don't ice fish, snowmobile, etc. I'm not sure I could move back unless I devolved into less serious mountain biker.
    Despite the growing pains of the last ten or so years I still love a lot of things about Portland, but it is easier to deal with the downsides because I'm already established with a nice house, career, etc.
    Support mtb'ing in the Portland area, join NWTA with your dollars, hands, and/or voice. nw-trail.org

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    Funny, I just got back from 7 days of visiting family in Wisco and it is the first time in 20 years I have felt a "pull" to go back. Or maybe it was a slight "push" from the current scene in PDX. I love Milwaukee (and Madison) and could see myself there at some point, but there are huge drawbacks to that city (as there are for just about every city I guess). There is very little mtb'ing nearby, and what there is doesn't even come remotely close to what we have within an hour of Portland. The humidity sucks. The bugs are horrendous. The winters can be tough if you don't ice fish, snowmobile, etc. I'm not sure I could move back unless I devolved into less serious mountain biker.
    Despite the growing pains of the last ten or so years I still love a lot of things about Portland, but it is easier to deal with the downsides because I'm already established with a nice house, career, etc.
    I can't speak for SE Wisconsin on this, but the way I deal with winter in Minneapolis is biking right through it. I don't switch to x-c skiing (well, much), or ice fishing or snowmobiling. I just keep on pedaling. The paved bike trails get great winter maintenance (plowed the same time as the streets), and there are lots of great places to ride on the snow with a fatbike. Not only are nearly all the MTB trail systems rideable in the winter, but you can ride a lot of places that are off limits to bikes when there isn't snow. I've been through 3 winters there now, and (again) for better or worse, we now only get about 2 weeks total of seriously below-zero weather, and not all at once. Most of the winter it's warm enough that some with ski gloves and goggles, a beater down jacket and half decent boots (Sorels are overkill a lot of the time), riding is a snap. No need to devolve. Actually, the worst time of the year if you're a serious MTBer is the spring thaw, when the trails can be closed for a few weeks until the soil thaws and drains all the way down.

    And I can relate about having your roots down. We likely wouldn't have left either, if we hadn't needed to for my wife's career.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  45. #45
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    I rode my moto back to Indiana to visit family. On the way there I took I-70. On the way back I took I-80. (SLC -> Indianapolis, IN)

    So a few things of note:
    - Kansas City is surprisingly not flat and looks like a pretty awesome city.
    - Lincoln, Nebraska had a lot of energy and wasn't as flat as Nebraska really is, but maybe not hilly enough for ex-mountain people. I wasn't there too long and should have paid more attention to the landscape.
    - Laramie, WY was rad. Another college town, so beautiful young people for days and their energy might be the reason I liked it so much. But they had a few breweries and plenty of nightlife. In the morning I was able to have a coffee and a lox bagel sandwich at a local coffee shop. The trains going from coast to coast run through town and they have a neat walking bridge over an active train yard. Pretty cool.

    Has anyone checked out Ft Collins, CO? I've heard good things. Laramie and Ft Collins are only an hour away from each other, apparently.

    I also agree that the midwest is underrated. I think it comes down to whether you NEED mountains and LIKE mountains. If you like mountains, then I think you have options. I like to woodwork and fabricate on the side and I need to live in an area that has resources beyond just a random job and a small house / apartment to store my climbing gear and bike.

    The amount of resources in the midwest just simply isn't matched in the mountain time zone. SLC is decent because of the rail and the highways. It might actually be the most industrial city in the mountain states. Pacific coast is an obvious solution, but the prices seem to be ridiculous from Mexico to Canada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Just remember, R.I.P. Pig Champion
    OMG! There was once Suburbia, owned and operated by an awesome Rick. I spent many days there with all those inhabitants, learning. It's where you could find the Deacon, of all people. The amount of work i put into that place, I loved it so.

    My favorite conspirators were Pig and one-leg Brian. I miss those guys! I would spend at least two days a week around Pig, he added to my life what i dont think anyone else could have. Even though he was the best guitar playing, drunken druggy i've ever met. He was an inspiration to those who could see under the surface.
    Goodbye '95 ZJ. Just so you know, transfering box of left behind womens panties to next truck. Thank you ZJ!

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