Results 1 to 38 of 38
  1. #1
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! COTA / USFS decide to block off the big feature on ODP

    The USFS and COTA have mutually agreed to temporarily block access to the large, elevated feature along the ODP trail, known as the Black Pearl, for public safety reasons. We are closing the feature because the risks are unknown and potentially very high. Please respect this temporary closure. We also ask that no new "mandatory air" features be constructed on public land at this time. COTA is working closely with the Forest Service to reach some common ground with the goals of ensuring public safety and fostering the development of world-class mountain bike opportunities in Central Oregon.Thanks for your understanding!
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  2. #2
    Making fat cool since '71
    Reputation: ImaKlyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    That blows. It's built well and very rideable, but OK...thanks for the work and heads up.

    Brock...
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  3. #3
    can't get here by wishin
    Reputation: fredfight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    182

    "mandatory?"

    since when is doing any feature "mandatory air" sounds like newspeak for someone don't like it to me...people can't go around the black pearl? is it a black hole? does it have a force of gravity that sucks you onto the ramp and forces big table tops and drops? if so sign me up!

  4. #4
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Yes, it SUCKS that we had to "TEMPORARILY" close the "Black Pearl".
    But we are trying to play by Forest Service rules. We are all hoping that this will be a quick process, but history shows that this could take some time. COTA greatly appreciates the patients of our community, and hopes that everyone understands that this is for the greater good of freeriding in our local, regional, and national forests.
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  5. #5
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    Quote Originally Posted by fredfight
    since when is doing any feature "mandatory air" sounds like newspeak for someone don't like it to me...people can't go around the black pearl? is it a black hole? does it have a force of gravity that sucks you onto the ramp and forces big table tops and drops? if so sign me up!
    "Mandatory air" is when you MUST become airborne in order to ride the feature. I thought that would be self-explanatory. The whole trail is open except for the big ramp feature, Black Pearl. It is important to note the FS could have said it needs to be torn down. They are being as accommodating as they are able to be - we should appreciate that.

    We are working towards a solution which will hopefully allow features like Black Pearl. Now is a good time to share your ideas on how that could happen.

    Thanks.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  6. #6
    Making fat cool since '71
    Reputation: ImaKlyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    Is the USFS against things with gaps (mandatory air) incorporated or just lines on trails which "mandate" a feature be ridden?

    I'm sure you folks are on the ball ('cuz you kick arse) I'm just thinking about the idea of (minimal) signing about "optional" lines/features which wouldn't make the rider get air or whatever.

    Like anyplace they see an orange (or whatever color...) diamond (or whatever shape...) they know to go right (or left...some predetermined direction) to avoid the feature or such. Just thinking out loud...I'll stop now.

    Keep kicking arse COTA and thanks again for the work.

    Brock...
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  7. #7
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaKlyde
    Is the USFS against things with gaps (mandatory air) incorporated or just lines on trails which "mandate" a feature be ridden?

    I'm sure you folks are on the ball ('cuz you kick arse) I'm just thinking about the idea of (minimal) signing about "optional" lines/features which wouldn't make the rider get air or whatever.

    Like anyplace they see an orange (or whatever color...) diamond (or whatever shape...) they know to go right (or left...some predetermined direction) to avoid the feature or such. Just thinking out loud...I'll stop now.

    Keep kicking arse COTA and thanks again for the work.

    Brock...

    The FS has a problem with any feature(weather its mandatory or optional) that you HAVE to get air off of in order to cleanly ride the feature.
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  8. #8
    industry employee
    Reputation: mtbzone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    292
    What if you built a little bridge from lip to lip, just wide enough to satisfy.....wouldn't that work?

    btw, thanks for your work, Nick.

  9. #9
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    We tried that idea with the FS, but they said we would also have to put a hand rail, in the areas that were above 4ft. YEAH!!! thats going to be REALLY!!! safe for people catching air. Plus, right now it is self limiting; if we make it rollable; riders of a lower skill level may find themselves somewhere they shouldn't be.
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  10. #10
    can't get here by wishin
    Reputation: fredfight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    182

    black pearl

    i figured that was what the fs had in mind... they want it sanitized to avoid risk... no negative vibes were intended by my previous post... cota rules... carry on.

  11. #11
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    Quote Originally Posted by fredfight
    i figured that was what the fs had in mind... they want it sanitized to avoid risk... no negative vibes were intended by my previous post... cota rules... carry on.

    No negative vibes taken! No worries and thanks for the feedback.

    So far I'm liking the ideas coming up here. At this point my attitude is that "the only bad idea is the one you don't share". So bring it on.

    I also think the FS officials might read these forums, so they are aware what's being said and ideas coming forth. Nobody is excluded from this conversation.

    Brock, elaborate a little on your thoughts, there. I'm not in favor of more signage, but my experience with the FS is they do not shy away from it. ;-)

    Self-limiting is a good way to design stuff, and I think Nick & crew did an awesome job on the entire length of ODP accomplishing that.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  12. #12
    Making fat cool since '71
    Reputation: ImaKlyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    I'm not a huge fan of lots of signing or such, but signs v. handrails? I'll take the signs.

    I don't have any good ideas I think the FS would approve of. Even with the best of signing and clear direction(s)/legends for said signage...there's always going to be someone that genuinely (somehow) didn't see it/understand or is a full-blown douchebag/dipstick and just decided to send it on something he was woefully unprepared for.

    I originally thought of paint on things before a feature, but that sucks too, it's ugly and distracting...I'd hate for riders to take responsibility and educate themselves before riding off a ledge or bridge.

    Anyway, good luck. The FS tends to be pretty hardcore about the requirement for rails on "bridges" above 4' off the ground.

    Brock...
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  13. #13
    newfydog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    276
    Good Grief! You should see the huge features on Crown land in British Columbia. Of course, there are a few people in wheelchairs, but no one made them try it.

  14. #14
    troubled economist
    Reputation: toowacky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    593
    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    We tried that idea with the FS, but they said we would also have to put a hand rail, in the areas that were above 4ft. YEAH!!!
    Sounds like an opportunity for step-up to rail-skinny to drop.

    Seriously, good luck in working towards a solution. I've been impressed by the work I've seen you post-- and optimistic that you will work something out.

  15. #15
    mtnjam
    Reputation: ryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    689
    bummer about the step up on ODP...didn't end up riding it while we were there a few months ago.

    Sounds like the FS changed their mind about this feature. I thought this feature had the blessings of the land managers...

    Either way...definite kudos to having a good working relationship with the USFS about other projects on trails in the area and GREAT building of other features in the area.
    Just ride down there and jump off something for crying out loud...

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: swift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    590
    Why not just make training wheels mandatory on all single-track. Does the FS know we're getting dirty out there too? Think of all the bacteria!

    Thank you, FS, for the care you've shown in deciding for us what's safe and what's not. Since we individuals don't have enough self-preservation instinct to decide for ourselves whether or not to ride something, your recent closure has surely saved us all from an injury plagued future.

  17. #17
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Quote Originally Posted by swift
    Why not just make training wheels mandatory on all single-track. Does the FS know we're getting dirty out there too? Think of all the bacteria!

    Thank you, FS, for the care you've shown in deciding for us what's safe and what's not. Since we individuals don't have enough self-preservation instinct to decide for ourselves whether or not to ride something, your recent closure has surely saved us all from an injury plagued future.


    Whoa!!! Just a tad bit of sarcasm there eh... Yes, it sucks that the BlackPearl has temporarily been shut down; but on the possitive side of things, the Forest Service could have gone out and cut up the entire structure with chain saws; but instead, they contacted COTA to work out a better way of closing the feature. We should all be very thankful that our local FS officers are so understanding and patient... Things could be way, WAY, WAY, worse. Just hang on for the ride, and it will eventually get better!
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: eschmid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    We tried that idea with the FS, but they said we would also have to put a hand rail, in the areas that were above 4ft. YEAH!!! thats going to be REALLY!!! safe for people catching air. Plus, right now it is self limiting; if we make it rollable; riders of a lower skill level may find themselves somewhere they shouldn't be.
    I am sorry this happened Nick! I agree with you about building a bridge across the gaps that it would make the feature just accessable enough to people without the neccessary skill to really hurt themselves. I also agree with you on the idea that we need to play nice with the forest service in order to grow the sport. If you need help showing a "respectable face" to your cause let me know; I can look and sound like a real respectable adult when I need to. Unfortuantely we ultimately have "third party liability" and insurance companies to blame for all this crap. This is what the USFS is worried about when they see stunts the the "Main Event/Black Pearl". We defintely don't want to burn any bridges here...unless it leaves nothing behind but a sweet gap!

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    9
    i live down in Medford soo i'm not super familiar with your trails but i just recently rode the Lair and how is it that the huge ass drop to left hand berm that is getting built is ok but this obstacle is not? i've never seen what your talking about here but if the Lair is legit and this isn't how big is this thing?

  20. #20
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratfab0120
    i live down in Medford soo i'm not super familiar with your trails but i just recently rode the Lair and how is it that the huge ass drop to left hand berm that is getting built is ok but this obstacle is not? i've never seen what your talking about here but if the Lair is legit and this isn't how big is this thing?

    First of all, the large drop you speak of at the lair, was built for a jump jam that happened a couple summers ago. We have been asked to remove that feature, as no one rides it.
    The forest service believes that jumps made from dirt and rock, can be argued that they're natural terrain; as where big features made from big logs and decking, can't really be argued that its natural. They originaly wanted us to take down the boner log jump at the lair, but we argued that it would disrupt the flow of the expert jump line. So they let that be.
    If you can't play by the rules (no matter how rediculous), then maybe buying some land, and building anything your hearts desire is the way to go.
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  21. #21
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Here are some pics of the feature.





    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    345
    Pile up dirt all the way around it so that the tallest any part is 6 inches?

    Surround the take-off in a staircase or banked ramp?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #23

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,362

    Can I help?

    Can I help in some way?

    I am a professional trail contractor (and President of the Professional TrailBuilders Association) based in NC and am here in Bend for the next 5 weeks. I have worked with the FS all over (we have worked in 20 states and 3 foreign counties) and understand the FS as well as anyone. It should be noted that the local FS here is way more progressive than anywhere else that I know of, hats off to COTA for all the years of hard work and grooming the local FS.

    I rode DOP this AM and looked at the structure, not at all surprised that they red flagged this structure. It certainly is well designed and built, and the step up is a great filter. But this is way out of the range of comfort level for the FS and they have to play by their rules. COTA also needs to be smart and concerned about liability and risk management, not only so you can keep a good relationship with the FS and doing cool things, but also to protect COTA and it's board members. I have served as an expert consultant in a number of trail related lawsuits and am under retainer for 2 in Canada now.

    I plan to attend the COTA meeting this week and look forward to talking on this subject and what can be done to re-design and re-open this kick arse feature. I look at other wood structures on DOP and had a few minor risk management concerns that I will share at the meeting.

    Also checked out the Lair this AM and was most impressed. I looked at the site 2 years ago with Sam and Kent and made some suggestions. COTA did a great job on developing the area and it exceeded my expectations, nice job to all who were involved in the design and development.

    I am here to help in any way I can. Also plan to do some digging as often as I can at the upcoming work parties.

    Woody Keen
    President- Trail Dynamics LLC
    President- Professional Trailbuilders Association
    Certified NC Clear Water Contractor

  25. #25
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Your concerns of loose boards on features, is being dealt with. I will try to get out tomorrow and tighten up the boards that have issues.
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SeenYour Crash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    330
    Woodman! Good to hear you're back. Great feedback on the ODP stuff, yeah quite proud see Nick helped us push the FS out of their comfort zone a bit. So what we still got a ton of new features that they are cool with. Looking forward to continuing our great relationship with them, glad this slight overstep won't put us back too far.

    Anyways....love to have you join us Wed night with the Footzone work party, we're going out for a few hours. Meet at 5:30 at old mt Bachelor Park and Ride on Simpson and Columbia Ave. Thurs nite COTA meeting 7:30 at Enviro Center on Kansas Ave.

    Chris

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,362
    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    Your concerns of loose boards on features, is being dealt with. I will try to get out tomorrow and tighten up the boards that have issues.

    Wow. That was quick, I had not even publicly noted my concerns. Guess my conversation with Kent filtered back to you. Give me a call and I may be able to sneak out with you to work on the loose boards- 828-553-9169. I am working today on putting together our Statement of Qualifications for 2 different bike parks (one on FL and a second in NC) projects out for solicitation and have to get one of these to FedEx today. I may however get that done and be free in the afternoon.

    Woody

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,362
    Re: pushing the FS beyond a comfort level- you guys are way lucky that Marv and local FS is cool and a push over the line does not destroy the relationship moving forward. My advice is always to figure out what the line (comfort level) is and push right up to it, but never over it.

    I will be at the COTA meeting for sure on Thur, and would like to meet for beer and dinner before if anyone is interested.

    Did see the Footzone work party on the schedule and may make that. I am working this week on many proposals responding to project RFQs (Request for Qualifications) and have to get one out the door today. That may not allow me to come out and play (digging in the dirt), but I will try. I do plan to make both work sessions next week as my work schedule is a bit more flexible (though I will be working on a Trail Development and Management Plan for a new park in Louisville KY). I wish all of my time was free while here, but I am still plugged in and working some each day.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    53
    Minor thread drift:

    I'm with Deschutes County SAR. From the SAR perspective, we won't voice an opinion on the closing of the Black Pearl. It's not within our scope and/or expertise. But we have formulated a plan for extracting anyone who crashes and burns there (and with the other features as well.) I plan to be at the meeting tomorrow and If possible I'd like to chat with you folks about this area as well as other newer trails.


    And if you folks have any questions for us...............

  30. #30

  31. #31
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Looks like Lane county newspapers, are not so up to date on the state of freeride in central oregon...http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms...8-41/story.csp
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: swift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    590
    Word. I'm just old, cynical, and grumpy.
    I grew up in a different time. ...A time when you rode without a helmet and could run with scissors.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,362
    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    Looks like Lane county newspapers, are not so up to date on the state of freeride in central oregon...http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms...8-41/story.csp
    It is interesting to see different versions of this same story, here is a link to the original story that ran a week or two ago: http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2...ws-ncpolitics/

    Garrett V. is the FS engineer I spoke of at the COTA meeting last week and the one who worked with IMBA to develop the Black Diamond Trail Plan for the Tahoe Basin. I thought I had a copy of this in a jump drive with me, but looks like I only have a hard copy back home in NC. I do have a e-copy of a Black Diamond Trail Management Plan for a BLM area near Grand Junction that I can get to Nick somehow as a reference. I will also try and get a copy of the Tahoe Basin plan sent to me in an e-format and share that with Nick as well.

    I like how they put a local and mostly positive spin on the article instead of just running the original.

    Woody

  34. #34
    Making fat cool since '71
    Reputation: ImaKlyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    The Redguard isn't exactly known for being in-touch or up to date.

    Brock...
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  35. #35
    Tree Hugger
    Reputation: Sasquatch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,946
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaKlyde
    The Redguard isn't exactly known for being in-touch or up to date.
    Brock...
    "Red Guard" is an absurd nickname.

    As if it was a liberal paper.

    I thought you were smarter than the rest of the Larson flock.
    I love mankind - it's people I can't stand. ~Charles M. Schulz

  36. #36
    Making fat cool since '71
    Reputation: ImaKlyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    That's below the belt...way below...

    Don't turn your back on me, ever.

    Brock...
    Are the wheels roundish? Ride it.

    Disciples Of Dirt, come ride with us.

  37. #37
    VP/ Terrain Designer
    Reputation: NastyNick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    631
    Quote Originally Posted by swift
    Word. I'm just old, cynical, and grumpy.
    I grew up in a different time. ...A time when you rode without a helmet and could run with scissors.

    ...like riding with wreckless abandon, and not worrying about anyone else...
    GOOD TIMES
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  38. #38
    Www.rvmba.org
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    323

    USFS Contact

    Does anybody know the USFS land manager contact in the Bend area.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •