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  1. #1
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    COTA board, secret meetings, one way trails. No member input allowed

    Hi everyone,
    it is a sad day when you find out that the board of your favorite trail advocacy club is becoming insular and myopic. The Central Oregon Trail Alliance Board believes that they can make major changes to the flow of the trail network via "One Way Trails" without a vote by members.

    One way trails might be understandable if there had already been a long education process, signage at the trailheads, or uphill climbing routes installed. But none of this has happened. Instead they have held meetings with USFS to plan a demonstration project of two to three trails that will become one way.

    Bens Trail would become uphill only.
    Phil's Trail and Canyon would be downhill only.
    Kent's Trail would become either uphill or downhill only.

    There is a reason this has been kept on the down low. Nobody is going to like it.

    This decision is in direct violation of the COTA mission statement of "no net loss of trails". For every trail you make one way you lose that same distance the other way.

    Don't get me wrong I love COTA! I think many great things have been done to grow our trail network and for that I am forever grateful.

    However, the board needs to take a good long look at the backlash that will come from making trails one way in the Phil's Trial area. Consider your options gentlemen you really don't want this much bad press.
    Last edited by Respectthetrails; 03-16-2014 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Typo

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    Woa. Bad idea. Really bad idea.

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    Perhaps [us locals & trail advocates] need to start a petition against the implementation of [one-way] trails within Phil's Complex? I'd sign it in a heart beat....JeffSP said it all.....REALLY BAD IDEA!!
    jjMarS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respectthetrails View Post
    Hi everyone,
    it is a sad day when you find out that the board of your favorite trail advocacy club is becoming insular and myopic. The Central Oregon Trail Alliance Board believes that they can make major changes to the flow of the trail network via "One Way Trails" without a vote by members.

    One way trails might be understandable if there had already been a long education process, signage at the trailheads, or uphill climbing routes installed. But none of this has happened. Instead they have held meetings with USFS to plan a demonstration project of two to three trails that will become one way.

    Bens Trail would become uphill only.
    Phil's Trail and Canyon would be downhill only.
    Kent's Trail would become either uphill or downhill only.

    There is a reason this has been kept on the down low. Nobody is going to like it.

    This decision is in direct violation of the COTA mission statement of "no net loss of trails". For every trail you make one way you lose that same distance the other way.

    Don't get me wrong I love COTA! I think many great things have been done to grow our trail network and for that I am forever grateful.

    However, the board needs to take a good long look at the backlash that will come from making trails one way in the Phil's Trial area. Consider your options gentlemen you really don't want this much bad press.
    Not just Gentlemen...ladies too. I am proudly part of this committee. The vast majority of people will "love it", once they try it. First, another premier MTB destination, Fruita, Colorado just went to directional trails, second Whoops is already one-way, third, we have designated climbing routes in Wanoga, & fourth, we would rather take this approach than having the Forest Service take the option out of our hands due to a serious accident.

    No doubt there will be vigorous debate here and in other forums. So far, the feedback I have personally received has been super positive. You may recall a "Right of Way Rant" thread on this forum last year. That thread provided tons of feedback and information for us.

    For the rest, I will let a COTA board member address your other points.

    Cheers!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjMarS View Post
    Perhaps [us locals & trail advocates] need to start a petition against the implementation of [one-way] trails within Phil's Complex? I'd sign it in a heart beat....JeffSP said it all.....REALLY BAD IDEA!!
    Why? Provide more detail to your argument.
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    I understand the need for some trails to flow one-way due to high-speed DH (e.g. ODP, South Fork, etc) and perhaps the idea to foster trail integrity by uphill only (e.g. North Fork), but why take away our agency/freedom within Phil's complex. MTB is an inherently dangerous sport, and I support safe riding, but there's nothing remotely dangerous w/i Phil's complex that should require DH ~or~ UH travel only; IMO. With that being said, I could see the Canyon as DH only...and I'd support that....but Ben's and Kent's.....come on!!
    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Why? Provide more detail to your argument.
    jjMarS

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjMarS View Post
    I understand the need for some trails to flow one-way due to high-speed DH (e.g. ODP, South Fork, etc) and perhaps the idea to foster trail integrity by uphill only (e.g. North Fork), but why take away our agency/freedom within Phil's complex. MTB is an inherently dangerous sport, and I support safe riding, but there's nothing remotely dangerous w/i Phil's complex that should require DH ~or~ UH travel only; IMO. With that being said, I could see the Canyon as DH only...and I'd support that....but Ben's and Kent's.....come on!!
    Kent's will be two way. If you view Ben's as downhill, we need to discuss.... Ben's will be the climbing route. The plan is to have Phil's downhill from the Kent's intersection. That is the Canyon btw. All clearly signed. Can you imagine the pure joy of bombing down Phil's Canyon... Works for me.
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    Uphill or downhill only for Kents. Ridiculous IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpryIP View Post
    Uphill or downhill only for Kents. Ridiculous IMHO.
    Kent's will be as it is today. Uphill & Downhill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Kent's will be as it is today. Uphill & Downhill.
    Great! Rest makes sense to me.

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    COTA board, secret meetings, one way trails. No member input allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by SpryIP View Post
    Great! Rest makes sense to me.
    Cool. More announcements on this coming soon. This will include a launch day at the trails. Thanks!


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  12. #12
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    Thanks for clarifying, willem3. I've been for the Canyon as DH Only for a long time and have often discussed this topic with many local fiends. In relation to Ben's as the climbing route, I will admit that I less than frequently use Ben's as my descending route, but it's still very fun to ride downhill and I can't understand why it needs to be uphill traffic only....help me to understand? Although I can see the overall vision, I can't think if a single section where visibility ~or~ UH/DH conflict is an issue. I've lived in Bend for 10 yrs and have NEVER came up on uphill traffic while descending Ben's (i.e. in an intrusive manner to either recreationalist); like we've ALL done on the canyon. I wouldn't say that I'm TOTALLY opposed to Ben's as UH only....but I do like the idea of 'line freedom" should I choose to DH that section of the complex. I'd welcome more of your thoughts....
    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Kent's will be two way. If you view Ben's as downhill, we need to discuss.... Ben's will be the climbing route. The plan is to have Phil's downhill from the Kent's intersection. That is the Canyon btw. All clearly signed. Can you imagine the pure joy of bombing down Phil's Canyon... Works for me.
    jjMarS

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Not just Gentlemen...ladies too. I am proudly part of this committee. The vast majority of people will "love it", once they try it. First, another premier MTB destination, Fruita, Colorado just went to directional trails, second Whoops is already one-way, third, we have designated climbing routes in Wanoga, & fourth, we would rather take this approach than having the Forest Service take the option out of our hands due to a serious accident.

    No doubt there will be vigorous debate here and in other forums. So far, the feedback I have personally received has been super positive. You may recall a "Right of Way Rant" thread on this forum last year. That thread provided tons of feedback and information for us.

    For the rest, I will let a COTA board member address your other points.

    Cheers!!
    Comparing Bend to Fruita is laughable to say the least. You could ride most of the trails in the Phil's complex on a roadbike!

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    Just got back from riding Sandy Ridge this Saturday. Besides the phenomenal riding, I was amazed at how many cars were in the parking lot (and overflow parking lot) but how few people I met while riding trails--I didn't have to pull over for anyone (and I do follow trail etiquette). The Sandy Ridge system is a ONE WAY system.
    Living in New Zealand for 2 years, I found the same phenomena in New Zealand in Rotorua. A majority of the trails there are ONE WAY. On a busy weekend with hundreds of cars in the parking lots, one would see few people while riding on trails. It was a superior riding experience in this respect.
    When I returned from New Zealand to Bend, I found that the number of people riding on the trails had dramatically increased. On a Sunday, in November, I was able to take my first ride Down Phil's in a couple of years. I was forced to pull over at least 10 times for over 18 uphill riders in two or so miles.
    People, upon first hearing about the ONE WAY trail system, may initially take the view that something has been taken away from them. However, with the increase in trail users in the "Golden Triangle", the freedom to actually ride, has already been taken.
    I view the change to the ONE WAY system as a proactive solution to a problem of increased trail use. What we lose, we have already lost, and what we stand to gain is the freedom to ride with miminal interuption to the experience we all seek.

  15. #15
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    One-way trails in the Philís Complex have been discussed for years, both in the community and within COTA. COTA has developed a pro-active, user-based initiative to preserve and enhance the user experience in the ever more popular Philís Trail Complex.

    This year, the COTA Board organized a diverse sub-committee to look into the feasibility of directional trails for the Philís and Wanoga networks. I headed up the sub-committee with a mix of 4 current COTA Board members, and 7 members from the community including bike shop employees, trail adopters, and your fellow riders.

    The committee reviewed the current status of the trails and the trend in usage of the trails. Add in the reality that the USFS will be ďimprovingĒ the Philís Trailhead parking area in the 2015 season and adding a Welcome Center, which will include approximately and additional 30 space parking lot on the south side of the Philís Trail Complex. Little Bend, Oregon and the quaint user-built trails of town are now a worldwide destination trail system. The reality is, our busy trails system is going to get busier.

    The ďTrail LoveĒ etiquette campaign is a great start to addressing the increased usage, as was the addition of better signage for the Complex. The etiquette campaign and signage will continue.

    The COTA Board has approved the Directional Trails plan. The plan was also presented to CORK, the runners club, as well as DogPAC and both groups are in support of the plan. The Deschutes National Forest is in support of this plan and COTA will be launching this with their full cooperation.

    The benefits of directional trails include:
    ē More riding. Less stopping. How many rides have you been on in the last year or two that were interrupted by more and more users going the opposite direction you were going?
    ē Less conflict. Ride your own ride. Have you had a bad experience with some jerk running you off the trail? Have you schedule your life around ride times that may help you avoid the crowds?
    ē Enjoy the forest. See fewer people. By riding with the flow of other users youíll see fewer people.
    ē Safety. In recent years COTA receives more and more first hand accounts of serious injuries caused by head-on collisions with other users.
    ē Keep single track single. With fewer riders passing one another the trails will return to a more pure single track for more enjoyable riding. COTA will not be altering the character of these trails for their new designation.
    ē Try it. Youíll like it. Trail networks around the country have adopted one-way systems with great success. Fruita is a great example of going on a ride from an overflowing parking lot only to find that you are by yourself and on your own ride the whole time.


    Give it a try and you might like it.

    The negative:
    #1 you canít go the other way. Thatís it thereís one negative.

    Trails affected:
    Benís uphill
    Philís downhill from Jct 18 (aka Kentís)

    Tylerís Traverse: majority will be downhill only with the exception of the relatively flat middle section in the vicinity of Larsen Trail for better navigation within the network.

    Coming to two trails in the Philís Complex soon.

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    Finally! This is a much needed improvement. I've been riding these trails for 17 years now and it has become a mess of people. I've ridden one way trails in other areas and loved it. I think over time, it will make the experience so much more enjoyable.

    I also find it humorous that everyone supports one-way DH trails but no UH trails. Seriously? Go ride those shitty trails on Mt.B and stay off the cross country tread. Have fun.

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    I'll not mind Phil's DH only and Ben's uphill only at all!

    By the way, does anyone know about plans for building an uphill single-track parallel to Whoops? Riding up Rd. 310 gets kind of stale.

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    Last edited by sketchbook; 04-29-2014 at 11:17 PM.

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    What is different between Bend, Fruita, Oakridge etc is that we have a flat trail network. We have a lot of riders at Phil's because it is so damn easy to ride.

    I yield all the time for less experienced riders, or if I can allow a rider to keep their flow. That's trail love to me.

    It has long been a motto in COTA to have no net loss of trail, period. If you try to take it away you have to give me something else that is just as good. So if you do decide to remove the Phil's Climb you should replace it with another trail that parallels it.

    Here is an idea...

    This needs to be a voted on topic by the members. Don't sit I your ivory towers and expect us to be happy when our dictator speaks. Give me a break.

    Please consider building uphill routes for each downhill you remove and a downhill route for each uphill you remove.

    As a COTA Board Member you serve me. So why not vote on it. The trail network was not built by CORK, or DOGPAC. So respect that fact.

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    Thanks for placing a little more color into the landscape; the vision is becoming more clear as I see the flow of this initiative within my minds eye. However, if this project finds the efficacy it desires within this seemingly low-volume approach, it seems that this may echo into other areas of Bend's MTB trails...which may be warranted...but how do us common folk get a say in how things unfold?
    Quote Originally Posted by SeenYour Crash View Post
    One-way trails in the Philís Complex have been discussed for years, both in the community and within COTA. COTA has developed a pro-active, user-based initiative to preserve and enhance the user experience in the ever more popular Philís Trail Complex.

    This year, the COTA Board organized a diverse sub-committee to look into the feasibility of directional trails for the Philís and Wanoga networks. I headed up the sub-committee with a mix of 4 current COTA Board members, and 7 members from the community including bike shop employees, trail adopters, and your fellow riders.

    The committee reviewed the current status of the trails and the trend in usage of the trails. Add in the reality that the USFS will be ďimprovingĒ the Philís Trailhead parking area in the 2015 season and adding a Welcome Center, which will include approximately and additional 30 space parking lot on the south side of the Philís Trail Complex. Little Bend, Oregon and the quaint user-built trails of town are now a worldwide destination trail system. The reality is, our busy trails system is going to get busier.

    The ďTrail LoveĒ etiquette campaign is a great start to addressing the increased usage, as was the addition of better signage for the Complex. The etiquette campaign and signage will continue.

    The COTA Board has approved the Directional Trails plan. The plan was also presented to CORK, the runners club, as well as DogPAC and both groups are in support of the plan. The Deschutes National Forest is in support of this plan and COTA will be launching this with their full cooperation.

    The benefits of directional trails include:
    ē More riding. Less stopping. How many rides have you been on in the last year or two that were interrupted by more and more users going the opposite direction you were going?
    ē Less conflict. Ride your own ride. Have you had a bad experience with some jerk running you off the trail? Have you schedule your life around ride times that may help you avoid the crowds?
    ē Enjoy the forest. See fewer people. By riding with the flow of other users youíll see fewer people.
    ē Safety. In recent years COTA receives more and more first hand accounts of serious injuries caused by head-on collisions with other users.
    ē Keep single track single. With fewer riders passing one another the trails will return to a more pure single track for more enjoyable riding. COTA will not be altering the character of these trails for their new designation.
    ē Try it. Youíll like it. Trail networks around the country have adopted one-way systems with great success. Fruita is a great example of going on a ride from an overflowing parking lot only to find that you are by yourself and on your own ride the whole time.


    Give it a try and you might like it.

    The negative:
    #1 you canít go the other way. Thatís it thereís one negative.

    Trails affected:
    Benís uphill
    Philís downhill from Jct 18 (aka Kentís)

    Tylerís Traverse: majority will be downhill only with the exception of the relatively flat middle section in the vicinity of Larsen Trail for better navigation within the network.

    Coming to two trails in the Philís Complex soon.
    Last edited by jjMarS; 03-17-2014 at 12:05 AM.
    jjMarS

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Respectthetrails View Post
    What is different between Bend, Fruita, Oakridge etc is that we have a flat trail network. We have a lot of riders at Phil's because it is so damn easy to ride.

    We also have massive volume because the trails are close to town. Certainly not the case for me, but for many they are not flat.

    I yield all the time for less experienced riders, or if I can allow a rider to keep their flow. That's trail love to me.

    Fantastic. You are already doing your part.

    It has long been a motto in COTA to have no net loss of trail, period. If you try to take it away you have to give me something else that is just as good. So if you do decide to remove the Phil's Climb you should replace it with another trail that parallels it.

    There are already trails in the area that are under utilized. Grand Slam is a good example of this.

    Here is an idea...

    This needs to be a voted on topic by the members. Don't sit I your ivory towers and expect us to be happy when our dictator speaks. Give me a break.

    Please consider building uphill routes for each downhill you remove and a downhill route for each uphill you remove.

    As a COTA Board Member you serve me. So why not vote on it. The trail network was not built by CORK, or DOGPAC. So respect that fact.
    The best way for you to address these issues is to not be anonymous, get involved, join our monthly meetings, and help with trail work. Funny how you just signed up for MTBR to rant about this. Or do you have another ID on here? Post #2 for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Respectthetrails View Post
    What is different between Bend, Fruita, Oakridge etc is that we have a flat trail network. We have a lot of riders at Phil's because it is so damn easy to ride.

    I yield all the time for less experienced riders, or if I can allow a rider to keep their flow. That's trail love to me.

    It has long been a motto in COTA to have no net loss of trail, period. If you try to take it away you have to give me something else that is just as good. So if you do decide to remove the Phil's Climb you should replace it with another trail that parallels it.

    Here is an idea...

    This needs to be a voted on topic by the members. Don't sit I your ivory towers and expect us to be happy when our dictator speaks. Give me a break.

    Please consider building uphill routes for each downhill you remove and a downhill route for each uphill you remove.

    As a COTA Board Member you serve me. So why not vote on it. The trail network was not built by CORK, or DOGPAC. So respect that fact.
    One additional point... In the beginning of your post, you mention that the trail network is "flat". Yet in your continued post you mention Phil's as "climb" and "uphill".

    Which is it? Can't have it both ways...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchbook View Post
    There is a parallel singletrack heading up to whoops. Just go south on road 300 a couple hundred feet.

    It's not used very heavily, but it's there.
    Is this an official trail? Just to confirm, there is a trail between Phils and Whoops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Kent's will be two way. If you view Ben's as downhill, we need to discuss.... Ben's will be the climbing route. The plan is to have Phil's downhill from the Kent's intersection. That is the Canyon btw. All clearly signed. Can you imagine the pure joy of bombing down Phil's Canyon... Works for me.
    I have a question on this. I have introduced my oldest kid to Mt. biking on Ben's. I think it is by far the best trail to for a beginner in this regard. We have gone up there, rode up as long as my kids wanted to, then turned around before he got exhausted, and rode back down. I have been planning to do this with my daughter this year. Am I going to get "in trouble"? Will people be glaring at me as some evil prick? I'm not saying it is entirely a bad idea, but it does put pressure on folks to ride more than they may want to, or be restricted from riding the trail because they may not be able to make the connectors. Not thrilled with Kents being left as the only alternative.

    Just something to think about.

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    COTA board, secret meetings, one way trails. No member input allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by GauchoGreg View Post
    I have a question on this. I have introduced my oldest kid to Mt. biking on Ben's. I think it is by far the best trail to for a beginner in this regard. We have gone up there, rode up as long as my kids wanted to, then turned around before he got exhausted, and rode back down. I have been planning to do this with my daughter this year. Am I going to get "in trouble"? Will people be glaring at me as some evil prick? I'm not saying it is entirely a bad idea, but it does put pressure on folks to ride more than they may want to, or be restricted from riding the trail because they may not be able to make the connectors. Not thrilled with Kents being left as the only alternative.

    Just something to think about.
    Good question. The great thing about Ben's trail is that it has multiple options to cross over to Kent's & Phil's. These include MTB Trail at about 1.5 miles in, KGB, & Voodoo. Therefore, it will be easy to create a loop.

    You also have Marvin's as a superb alternative. Additionally, COTA will be building additional family friendly trails by the new visitor center at Century & Conklin.

    Cheers!


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    COTA board, secret meetings, one way trails. No member input allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by SpryIP View Post
    Is this an official trail? Just to confirm, there is a trail between Phils and Whoops?
    Not official. Easy to find off Rd. 300. Just head South on 300 and keep your eyes focused on the right side. You will find it. Not sure how it came about.


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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Good question. The great thing about Ben's trail is that it has multiple options to cross over to Kent's & Phil's. These include MTB Trail at about 1.5 miles in, KGB, & Voodoo. Therefore, it will be easy to create a loop.

    You also have Marvin's as a superb alternative. Additionally, COTA will be building additional family friendly trails by the new visitor center at Century & Conklin.

    Cheers!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

    Like I said, I'm not totally opposed to the idea, particularly as my son has gotten to the point we do the route as it is going to be laid out anyway, as a matter of normal practice. I just liked how Ben's gave a much better degree of challenge compared to Marvins, was fun both directions, was pretty well shaded during the summer, etc. It has been the case many times when I have had us turn around as my way of introducing my kids to a sport I love is to make it as fun, and stress free as possible until they are hooked. Thus, the turn around rather than pressuring him up to the next connector. That was how I was planning to introduce my daughter to it this year.

    I like the Canyon as downhill, I'm just not as thrilled with Bens being only uphill. By the way, I have also had to go downhill due to gear failure and running out of time on Ben's while planning to go up to the top and coming down Phil's, but the lack of time forced us to come back down Ben's. I hope people will not have hollier than thou attitudes if there is the occasional person that goes the "wrong way", even for short stints of the trail. Knowing how so many people are on the trails, I can see the "purist" becoming a very unforgiving a-hole, and I hope people will be a bit forgiving instead if the intent of people is to abide by the rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    The best way for you to address these issues is to not be anonymous, get involved, join our monthly meetings, and help with trail work. Funny how you just signed up for MTBR to rant about this. Or do you have another ID on here? Post #2 for you?
    You are falsely accusing me of not being involved, not attending meetings, and not doing trail work. This stays anonymous because of the dictatorship that currently exists at COTA.

    This is also not a rant. This is to shed light on a bad decision making process, a lack of transparency, and the Board members of COTA being controlled by Paul and Woody into doing their bidding.

    To address your second point about flat trails. Phil's area is flat by comparison to the other areas discussed. I want to ride both ways on any trail I want to. The last thing I need to hear is that "This trail is one way dude".

    Case in point... I had a mechanical on the way up North Fork trail. I was near happy valley but I could not go on. So on a busy Saturday I rode my bike respectfully back down North Fork trail. Along the way I came across numerous hikers and mountain bikers that scolded me for going downhill on an uphill only trail. I took it in stride but it sucked big time. (For the record North Fork trail is signed as uphill only but administratively it is not.) Either way I had to get out of the trail network and unless I wanted to walk up North Fork all the way to happy valley, do the rest of the climb pushing my bike to Farewell trail I had to go downhill. This could happen on Bens trail as well. Can you see this as a recipe for conflict? I did and I do.

    If COTA continues to ignore the amount of work that needs to be done in the Phil's Triangle to make it a better riding experience and decides only to apply rules to the area we all lose. Wanoga has consumed massive amounts of money and labor and is a really great new area, well done COTA. But in the Phil's area all we have had are some Trail Love stickers, and a mostly disgusted eye turned away by COTA.

    What we need are more trails to reduce the load on the network. We need beginner loops close to the trailhead so the Moms and Dads are not trying to teach their kids how to ride in the main flow of the trails. Make those one way if you like.

    More than anything if you do decide to make trails one way give us all an option of a second trail that gains the same distance to the same junction. At least that way you satisfy all the members and public that are going to come out of the woodwork against your seemingly well thought out plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GauchoGreg View Post
    Like I said, I'm not totally opposed to the idea, particularly as my son has gotten to the point we do the route as it is going to be laid out anyway, as a matter of normal practice. I just liked how Ben's gave a much better degree of challenge compared to Marvins, was fun both directions, was pretty well shaded during the summer, etc. It has been the case many times when I have had us turn around as my way of introducing my kids to a sport I love is to make it as fun, and stress free as possible until they are hooked. Thus, the turn around rather than pressuring him up to the next connector. That was how I was planning to introduce my daughter to it this year.

    I like the Canyon as downhill, I'm just not as thrilled with Bens being only uphill. By the way, I have also had to go downhill due to gear failure and running out of time on Ben's while planning to go up to the top and coming down Phil's, but the lack of time forced us to come back down Ben's. I hope people will not have hollier than thou attitudes if there is the occasional person that goes the "wrong way", even for short stints of the trail. Knowing how so many people are on the trails, I can see the "purist" becoming a very unforgiving a-hole, and I hope people will be a bit forgiving instead if the intent of people is to abide by the rules.
    Good points. The other great thing about Ben's is its proximity to Skyliner Road. If you have a failure, massive accident (personal experience....long story), or other issue, you can bail out at multiple points. If you have to go down, just be respectful to uphill riders. Stuff happens!!


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    Seen your crash...

    We all know that you have pride for your success at COTA. Thanks for all your hard work.

    But if I recall we have discussed that setting a precedence of one way trails was a horrible idea. It spreads throughout the network until you have lost half of the mileage you once had.

    How about we make COD downhill only. Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Respectthetrails; 03-17-2014 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Maybe someone should ask Phil what he thinks of his trail being a one way downhill. Did that happen?

    Did COTA include past presidents like Eric Meglasson, Kent Howes, or Paul Hammerquist into the discussion of one way trails or did you discount their knowledge and legacy for your own gain?

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    Are the downhill trails going to be open to hikers and runners? Will they be one way for them? Will anyone point out to the gonzo dh they still need to be alert?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Good points. The other great thing about Ben's is its proximity to Skyliner Road. If you have a failure, massive accident (personal experience....long story), or other issue, you can bail out at multiple points. If you have to go down, just be respectful to uphill riders. Stuff happens!!


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    I'm fine with this tact. I hope that part of this agreement is that those who "patrol" the trails, meaning many of the regulars that may find themselves thinking of themselves as the purist defacto "cops" of the trails, will be instructed to at least try to be polite about reminding those going downhill the trail is supposed to be uphill only. That, I believe, should be a very important bit of instructions for the COTA people. Since we have gone this long with Ben's as a two-way trail, if someone occasionally goes the "wrong way", it should not ruin anyone's day, and people should not act like it is ruining everything by treating the "offenders" as scum.

    By the way, for a newby kid just getting his first taste significant uphill, even the Skyliners exits are beyond where we have turned around. It took us a few rides to even make the first cutoff to Kents. While we are blessed with TONS of miles of trails, there are only a couple of good routes up in the lower trail area, namely Phil's, Ben's & Kents. That's why it is kinda a bummer to be restricted to Kent's if we want to have the flexibility to do a turnaround when needed.

    I get it. It is rarely the case that a choice does not come with some form of a negative outcome. In this case, I believe it is a bummer that Ben's loses some flexibility. And I am really not trying to change anyone's mind, as I believe down the road I will be glad the policy has been made.

    Thanks for all the work you do. I am a grateful Mtn Biker who barely has enough time to get out on the trails, let alone do any work on them. So, my comments should be taken as an interested party who will be happy to have the opportunity, and will look at this for its positives, rather than focus on the negatives. But I do think it is important for people to be told to not be too vigilant in their scolding of those who might have a decent reason to be going the wrong way . . . . they may have intended to complete the loop . . . but as you say, "Stuff Happens!!" While the overwhelming majority of those I have come across on the trails have been really cool people, incredibly positive to my boy getting into the sport, but I have also found this sport to be populated by quite a few that are "overly serious" about their sport, and too quick to rip into someone for violating a rule of the trail before considering circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Are the downhill trails going to be open to hikers and runners? Will they be one way for them? Will anyone point out to the gonzo dh they still need to be alert?
    Great points newfydog! How many runners enjoy the beauty of running up Phil's Canyon. I know I love riding that section "up". The rock formations and biodiversity of the canyon are simply amazing. Unless you stop a lot you will miss all of it blasting downhill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GauchoGreg View Post
    I'm fine with this tact. I hope that part of this agreement is that those who "patrol" the trails, meaning many of the regulars that may find themselves thinking of themselves as the purist defacto "cops" of the trails, will be instructed to at least try to be polite about reminding those going downhill the trail is supposed to be uphill only. That, I believe, should be a very important bit of instructions for the COTA people. Since we have gone this long with Ben's as a two-way trail, if someone occasionally goes the "wrong way", it should not ruin anyone's day, and people should not act like it is ruining everything by treating the "offenders" as scum.

    By the way, for a newby kid just getting his first taste significant uphill, even the Skyliners exits are beyond where we have turned around. It took us a few rides to even make the first cutoff to Kents. While we are blessed with TONS of miles of trails, there are only a couple of good routes up in the lower trail area, namely Phil's, Ben's & Kents. That's why it is kinda a bummer to be restricted to Kent's if we want to have the flexibility to do a turnaround when needed.

    I get it. It is rarely the case that a choice does not come with some form of a negative outcome. In this case, I believe it is a bummer that Ben's loses some flexibility. And I am really not trying to change anyone's mind, as I believe down the road I will be glad the policy has been made.

    Thanks for all the work you do. I am a grateful Mtn Biker who barely has enough time to get out on the trails, let alone do any work on them. So, my comments should be taken as an interested party who will be happy to have the opportunity, and will look at this for its positives, rather than focus on the negatives. But I do think it is important for people to be told to not be too vigilant in their scolding of those who might have a decent reason to be going the wrong way . . . . they may have intended to complete the loop . . . but as you say, "Stuff Happens!!" While the overwhelming majority of those I have come across on the trails have been really cook people, incredibly positive to my boy getting into the sport, but I have also found this sport to be populated by quite a few that are "overly serious" about their sport, and too quick to rip into someone for violating a rule of the trail before considering circumstances.
    Your point regarding communication style is super important. It will take time and education to get this right. Being calm and respectful will go a long way. Also, expect our signage to be clear and intuitive.

    Thanks for your comments and questions.
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    Too funny, I just read where I said "I have come across on the trails have been really cook people" I meant "cool".

    Anyway, thanks again. Can't wait for the trails to be in condition to ride. By the way, you guys have any idea, given the snow pack and ground moisture you are seeing now, when we should expect the trails up to Whoops to be ride-able this year? I know it would be a totally WAG, and totally contingent on our typically crazy spring weather, but, ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GauchoGreg View Post
    Too funny, I just read where I said "I have come across on the trails have been really cook people" I meant "cool".

    Anyway, thanks again. Can't wait for the trails to be in condition to ride. By the way, you guys have any idea, given the snow pack and ground moisture you are seeing now, when we should expect the trails up to Whoops to be ride-able this year? I know it would be a totally WAG, and totally contingent on our typically crazy spring weather, but, ...
    I was out there yesterday. Riding nicely to the Chicken. Also perfect to about 2.5 miles up Kent's. Some small muddy patches up to 300. Drying out fast. Although, our moisture last night will affect things. Actually super sandy in some spots due to the heavy rains and trails being turned into drainage.
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    For complete disclosure I will start off by saying that I am a current COTA board member, and also served on the one way trail committee, and that the following text is my opinion.

    @ Respectthetrails most of us know who you are and we all appreciate all the work you have done over the years, and will continue to do in the future. For that I will respect your anonymity as everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

    However, bashing the current COTA board and specifically calling out Paul and Woody was probably a little unnecessary. As a current board member I would like to point out to the rest of the mtbr community that in fact we are not a dictatorship, just a group of individuals who share a common passion for building trails we can enjoy on our bikes. I would also like to point out that the Board is composed entirely of volunteers.

    I'm sure this thread will continue for some time as we all know this is a pretty big deal for our beloved trail system. The fact of the matter is things change, and we either do nothing or adapt. One way trails is an adaptation for a trail system that is seeing more users every year as Bend becomes an ever more popular destination for the outdoor enthusiast. This is a big picture solution to a growing problem in the lower Phils triangle that can be implemented this year to evaluate its effectiveness on managing the crowds, and creating a better user experience for all.

    If it turns out the plan the committee came up with was in fact ill conceived and poorly executed we will all know in a couple months! If that ends up being the case I will personally bring the matter to the board and demand that we either ditch the plan entirely or adapt the plan as needed. So before we all jump to conclusions, lets just give it a try, I promise the sky is not going to fall down if we do!

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    I can follow some of the logic, especially Phils Canyon (just rebuild the old climbing trail that got taken out???). But, the Ben's decision has me scratching my head - plus I love riding down it. So if I understand, all of the downhill traffic from Whoops is going to have to cut over and go down Phil's/Kent's or out to Skyliner? Over time what that really means is that if another trail is not built is that Kent's will turn in to a defacto downhill trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrein View Post
    For complete disclosure I will start off by saying that I am a current COTA board member, and also served on the one way trail committee, and that the following text is my opinion.

    @ Respectthetrails most of us know who you are and we all appreciate all the work you have done over the years, and will continue to do in the future. For that I will respect your anonymity as everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

    However, bashing the current COTA board and specifically calling out Paul and Woody was probably a little unnecessary. As a current board member I would like to point out to the rest of the mtbr community that in fact we are not a dictatorship, just a group of individuals who share a common passion for building trails we can enjoy on our bikes. I would also like to point out that the Board is composed entirely of volunteers.

    I'm sure this thread will continue for some time as we all know this is a pretty big deal for our beloved trail system. The fact of the matter is things change, and we either do nothing or adapt. One way trails is an adaptation for a trail system that is seeing more users every year as Bend becomes an ever more popular destination for the outdoor enthusiast. This is a big picture solution to a growing problem in the lower Phils triangle that can be implemented this year to evaluate its effectiveness on managing the crowds, and creating a better user experience for all.

    If it turns out the plan the committee came up with was in fact ill conceived and poorly executed we will all know in a couple months! If that ends up being the case I will personally bring the matter to the board and demand that we either ditch the plan entirely or adapt the plan as needed. So before we all jump to conclusions, lets just give it a try, I promise the sky is not going to fall down if we do!

    Sincerely,

    Joe T.
    COTA Free Ride Coordinator
    Joe,
    I appreciate the fact that you are willing to revisit the issue if it is opposed by the masses. I have given several great options to unclog the pipe that is Phils Network in my posts. Have any of these been considered?

    I am not trying to call anyone out. By using Paul and Woody as the top dogs at COTA I am stating a fact. The board bends to their will. Who opposes Paul or Woody... ever.

    That's the boards problem. Sort it out and pick who is going to be the next COTA Chairman before its time to have one. You have about a year and a half.

    This Post is however about "One Way" trails. I'll stop posting insider information if COTA becomes transparent. When there is transparency nothing is news. So please stop keeping COTA members in the dark. You need our input, badly. This news should be on the front page of the COTA site with a request for comments. Instead we have MTBR. Bummer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockin View Post
    I can follow some of the logic, especially Phils Canyon (just rebuild the old climbing trail that got taken out???). But, the Ben's decision has me scratching my head - plus I love riding down it. So if I understand, all of the downhill traffic from Whoops is going to have to cut over and go down Phil's/Kent's or out to Skyliner? Over time what that really means is that if another trail is not built is that Kent's will turn in to a defacto downhill trail.
    You could not be more correct. But they are planning on cutting the one way off before it hits Rd.300. If that's incorrect then man its going to be a mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respectthetrails View Post
    You could not be more correct. But they are planning on cutting the one way off before it hits Rd.300. If that's incorrect then man its going to be a mess.
    We do plan a route to the right to direct downhill traffic further South on Rd. 300 toward Phil's. I will let Seen Your Crash add some detail to my comment.
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    I'm an outsider, never ridden in this specific area but have been to Fruita several times as will as the other Phil's, as in Phil's World in Cortez, CO which is pretty much 100% "directional" and it just may be the best trail system I've ever ridden. It's nice to know I don't have to worry about getting plowed from somebody coming directly at me.

    Overall, I like the directional idea. In all the places I've experienced it, it seems to work as designed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Why? Provide more detail to your argument.
    That should be more incumbent on those proposing changes to the existing rules than those questioning the need. Sounds like an F'd up process by COTA for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    That should be more incumbent on those proposing changes to the existing rules than those questioning the need. Sounds like an F'd up process by COTA for sure.
    No. Incorrect. I was responding to his statement with no argument to back it up.

    You post an inflammatory comment with no detail for your own position other than to dislike the process. Seen Your Crash has posted our plan. What is your take on the plan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    That should be more incumbent on those proposing changes to the existing rules than those questioning the need. Sounds like an F'd up process by COTA for sure.
    If you read the entire thread, Mr Mars and I came to an agreement about the plan. So, we are providing the details on the changes, ACree. Cheers!
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    No. Incorrect. I was responding to his statement with no argument to back it up.

    You post an inflammatory comment with no detail for your own position other than to dislike the process. Seen Your Crash has posted our plan. What is your take on the plan?
    You're mistaking me for the OP. I didn't post anything inflammatory. I questioned your demand for more detail. Even if COTA were taking the proper course here, secret proceeding and minimal public input start the communications off on the wrong foot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Respectthetrails View Post
    Joe,
    I appreciate the fact that you are willing to revisit the issue if it is opposed by the masses. I have given several great options to unclog the pipe that is Phils Network in my posts. Have any of these been considered?

    I am not trying to call anyone out. By using Paul and Woody as the top dogs at COTA I am stating a fact. The board bends to their will. Who opposes Paul or Woody... ever.

    That's the boards problem. Sort it out and pick who is going to be the next COTA Chairman before its time to have one. You have about a year and a half.

    This Post is however about "One Way" trails. I'll stop posting insider information if COTA becomes transparent. When there is transparency nothing is news. So please stop keeping COTA members in the dark. You need our input, badly. This news should be on the front page of the COTA site with a request for comments. Instead we have MTBR. Bummer...
    From what I have gathered you have offered only one solution to unclog the Phils network.

    1. "What we need are more trails to reduce the load on the network. We need beginner loops close to the trailhead so the Moms and Dads are not trying to teach their kids how to ride in the main flow of the trails. Make those one way if you like" - Quoted from one of respectthetrails posts.

    Unfortunately that isn't a feasible solution for solving the problem now! The trails would have to be laid out, approved by the Forest Service and then built. This could take years in planning alone. The problem isn't the moms and dads taking their kids out teaching them how to ride, its the large volume of riders we have on the trails. This volume is only going to increase! The easiest most effective means of eliminating the congestion, and conflict is to get them all going the same direction. You see this as a net loss in trails, others like myself see this as a gain as I now get to actually ride the trail without interrupting my ride constantly stopping to yield to others.

    The only other solution I saw was "Please consider building uphill routes for each downhill you remove and a downhill route for each uphill you remove." - Quoted from respectthetrails previous post in this thread.

    This is basically saying the same thing you said in number one above but worded in a different matter and all the issues I stated above for number 1 apply to this as well.

    If I missed the other solutions you proposed my bad and please enlighten me.

    You are calling people out, Woody, Paul and the rest of the COTA board! Since you think the entire Board is too dumb to think for themselves, and that Woody and Paul are brainwashing us with their agendas and stating this as a fact please enlighten me. When have they made myself or anyone else on the board for that matter bend our wills to meet their agendas. Not sure what your issues with Paul or Woody are, but from where I am sitting as a board member they have never forced anything on myself nor the rest of the board.

    To the contrary I believe they are doing a great job leading the organization and the proof is on the ground being enjoyed by many as I type this. Not only on the ground but our membership is also on the rise, clearly something is being done right! Furthermore the only reason I am on the Board is due to the fact that it is a diverse group of people whom actually get along and like each other. Young, older , slow, fast, xc, dh, freeride, old school single track, new school flow trails, all volunteering to spend their free time to better the riding experience in Central Oregon. Central Oregon is lucky to have an organization such as COTA, and I pinch myself every morning knowing that I get to live where people dream of spending their vacation time!

    On a side note, does everyone obey the speed limit signs all the time? Generally speaking I think most people do or stay pretty close to the posted speed during rush hour as the traffic makes it tough, not to mention it draws the attention of the authorities when a car is bobbing and weaving through traffic to get their speed fix as it endangers all those around them. Early morning or late afternoon may be a different story, less cars to deal with a person can open it up a little and not draw too much attention, the authorities are more concerned with eating their donuts than the occasional speeder going 10mph over the posted limit.

    Cheers,
    Joe T.
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    P.S. I'm done engaging with respectthetrails on this thread, he is entitled to his own opinion on this matter, but I will let the community decide how they feel in a few months and if it turns out bad I'm sure COTA will make things right.
    Last edited by jtrein; 03-17-2014 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Typo forgot to mention that last edit!

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    Like eschmid wrote in regards to Sandy Ridge... the parking lot, overflow area, and any available spot on the street may be full of cars, but the trails are seemingly empty. It is always like that at Sandy. What do you do about those pesky, two footed trail users though? Just curious... I don't make it to Bend enough to complain, but was pleased that this thread contained mention of the flat nature of the trails. I wish that "us" big city folk had this problem though. This could be something to embrace.
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    Is it possible to have seasonal one-way trails? For example, June-August (or whatever is deemed the high-use months) trails will be one way and two-way the rest of the year.

    I know signage, logistics, etc. would be an issue, but they can be put up once a year, and then taken down once a year. Just a thought to appease both sides of the argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrein View Post
    P.S. I'm done engaging with respectthetrails on this thread, .
    You had my respect until this. Don't come to this august group, and storm out when your rant is done. Engage in the dialog, there are real cyclists here. That is how something can get accomplished.

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    So is the one-way trail idea a done deal? Just trying to understand where things stand.

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    As somebody whose life has been profoundly affected by a head-on mtb crash, I have to say I generally support this idea.

    But I would implement it in phases. First, see whether Friday through Sunday restrictions takes care of the issue. Give it until July 4, then proceed accordingly.

    I'm sorry, but it was wrong not to involve the entire COTA membership in this process. Just wrong. Announcements should have been made, and comments should have been considered, before making decisions -- even if the ultimate decisions did not please everybody, or possibly even the majority. This smacks more than a bit of Big Brother-ism.

    Finally, I will sorely miss coming "down" Bens. Just one of my personal favorite routes, with my climbing preference being Phils. More work on the way down Bens, and more consistent climbing on the way up Phils. But that's just me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    You had my respect until this. Don't come to this august group, and storm out when your rant is done. Engage in the dialog, there are real cyclists here. That is how something can get accomplished.
    Newfy perhaps poorly worded on my part, my bad! All I was trying to get at is that I'm not looking for a keyboard battle with respectthetrails. This individual stated his/her opinion regarding the COTA board which he/she presented as fact! I simply offered the mtbr community my opinion and asked for evidence to back up the so called facts this individual presented. I understand there are real cyclist on this site, but I also know there are trolls and I'm not looking to feed them for entertainment. If people want to discuss the topic of one way trails then by all means do so, I will keep on eye on this thread as I'm sure the rest of the board will too.

    Cheers

    Joe T.

  56. #56
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    Paul's Trail or Kent's trail crosses 300 Rd and then climbs up to 310Rd. We are assuming this is the parallel trail they are talking about..
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    Well, since Joe T. and the rest of the board are keeping an eye on this forum I'll throw in my $0.02. Let me start by saying that I am a COTA member and have worked on the trails for over a decade now. I think this organization is fantastic and the trail network has benefited immensely from the hard work of the member volunteers.

    Now, as for this specific plan; I'm personally OK with it all except for the uphill only part on Ben's. It flows nicely from whoops as it is. If the network really needs an uphill only trial, why not Kents? Or if there will be some sort of better transition from whoops to Phil's downhill, that would be an OK alternative, but I didn't see that in the plan (e-mailed out today).

    On the other chatter about Fruita being a 'one way' system - I just spent the last two days riding many of those trails and didn't notice much this despite it being a very busy system. I didn't see any one way trails in the Kokipelli Loops area; around the Road 18 area the PBR trail was one way down (a good thing!), but no trails were designated one way up. Prime Cut seemed to be the defacto uphill route and it seemed to work with the crowds. I kind of think we would be just as well off having no designation on Ben's. The 'uphill only' designation really only seems necessary on routes where there may be a lot of biker / pedestrian conflict; like on North Fork. I don't see that on Ben's.

    These are just my opinions and I'm happy I have some place to say them where the COTA decision makers will have a chance to read and consider them. At the end of the day, I'll be a happy camper on the trails however the plan rolls out.

    To Respectthetrails original point; people want to be heard. I've heard some reasonable perspectives on this thread and think it would have been better if the COTA planning sub-group and board had reached out a little broader before unanimously voting this plan in.

    Again, please take this as constructive input only. I applaud all the hard work that everyone is doing for the good of the common trail network.

    -allen

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    Just a couple questions for maybe Willem or the Board members.

    Will these rules apply to hikers and runners?

    Who polices the new rules on the trails?
    How will the rules be enforced?
    What kind of ramifications or punishments for people who refuse to follow the one-way directions?

    And another point was made about Ben and Kents. Why not make Kents uphill?
    Ben's does kind of flow naturally with the already D/H designated Whoops.
    Yes, I'm a COTA member.

  59. #59
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    This one-way project for the Phil's Triangle has been militating on my mind since I'd read the first thread. After giving some serious thought about how to ameliorate some of the trail conflicts, as well as, appease all that will be affected should this idea reach fruition; I found myself on my MTB ride today in deep thought on varying ideas and then naturally arrived a what could be a win-win solution for everyone.....

    I'm also an MX enthusiast and reflected upon a common theme amongst most MX tracks.....they generally run the track one way for a period of time and then run the opposing way for an extended duration. I've never asked why they do this, but I'm assuming it's to maintain track integrity (i.e. which seems to be most important) and to allow a different flow of traffic for rider experience.

    In light of this idea, is it practical to think that we might run the system one way for let's say the odd weeks of the month (i.e. 1st week, 3rd week, and 5th week) and the opposing way the even weeks? IMO, this would provide a amicable resolve for everyone (i.e. we have some one-way trails ~and~ everyone can still ride them as they choose [given they ride on the right day]).

    Thoughts??
    jjMarS

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    "More riding. Less stopping. How many rides have you been on in the last year or two that were interrupted by more and more users going the opposite direction you were going?"
    -- This seems like a good idea to me. Although I have done the Bens up to the MTB fork and back with my young son...we'd just find a new route. Thanks for all you do COTA.

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    ..also Kent's down is way too fun to make uphill only. Please don't consider that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OregonTed View Post
    ..also Kent's down is way too fun to make uphill only. Please don't consider that.
    I agree. I prefer going down Kent's over Ben's. It's a fun descent.

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    Pump The Brakes!

    Admittedly, I donít engage on these forums as a general rule. I do follow closely to keep up on whatís current and to be entertained. Letís face it, most hot issues are just a bit overblown by one or two and itís fun to read. Iíve been a COTA member and have volunteered my time to work. Iíve ridden the area being impacted for more than twenty years and in that time Iíve watched it grow, improve, get used heavily, and degrade (not just trail condition). Here goes:

    Count me as one whoís disappointed that this is blindsiding the mountain bike community. The only lead-up seems to have been the right-of-way MTBR thread last season. No notice that the COTA board was actually considering such a drastic change this quickly. Those with concerns about public input and/or transparency have a point that canít be denied or discounted. Iím one of them. Certainly there are many who have opinions. Itís public land and the board is speaking on behalf of a very large community. I also think the right and ďtrendyĒ thing to do would have been to create a somewhat professional survey and invite us all to participate in something that could quantify community input/options. Itís not too late for that.

    Benís is perfectly suited as a two-way trail. Iím not saying the situation there shouldnít be improved. It's the most enjoyable and safest two-way route of the three (Benís, Kentís and Philís). The gradient is gentle, sight-lines are almost completely clear and it provides a few rider options that make it fun. My suggestion regarding Benís is twofold; 1) engage in a long-term planning process to redesign it and 2) mimic whatís been done with Funner and Tiddlywinks by building specific directional sections into the otherwise two-way trail. I donít think itís optimal to exclude downhill traffic on a trail providing such obvious connectivity from the upper trails to the trailhead (obvious like a ball peen hammer to the temple).

    Iíve personally had more ďclose callsĒ on Kentís than either of the other two trails. My experience has been that many who ride it downhill, do so pretty fast to take advantage of the steeper gradient and fun, flowy lines. Itís consistently my favorite to ride down. That said, itís a fun uphill too and this is bigger than just taking a straw poll of how many hold each trail as their favorite for returning to the TH. All of them are more fun down than up...itís mountain biking. My opinion here is related more to the overall system traffic pattern. What makes better sense to me is making Kentís the uphill only option. Uphill traffic would be centralized among the trails on the North side of the triangle and downhill traffic could flow (mushroom) to the outsides (with some mingling over on Benís). This also provides a bit easier and more natural connection to the trails on the South side of the triangle (Grand Slam onward) including anything proposed toward the new welcome center.

    Philís...well, itís classic both ways. But itís such a kick going down the canyon uninterrupted that DH only is a no-brainer to me. My only hope for Philís is that it doesnít (DOES NOT) turn into another Whoops Trail. Thereís no doubt some improvement could be made to make it more sustainable and improve the fun. But Whoops has become so specialized that it just isnít fun for a lot of folks (real cyclists included) and itíd be a real shame for the namesake trail in the system to be enjoyed by only those with the guts and commitment to ďsend it.Ē

    I hope the committee responsible for this is sincerely open-minded even at this late time in the ďprocessĒ...though, so far what Iíve read makes the plan seem to me like itís a done-deal and those directly involved are simply justifying it and expecting a ďno questions asked,Ē ďYes Sir,Ē (excuse me, I mean good olí college try) from the rest of us. Youíve given us no options and no opportunity for meaningful input to this point and my sense from reading all the posts in this thread is you donít want it now (we've given input anyway). Thatís actually a pretty crappy leadership trait to have surface when an idea is hatched that affects literally everyone who uses the trails. Please donít interpret that as a personal attack. Itís not. Itís a statement about the issue at hand. This issue steps outside the mission of providing a great trail system (it is a great system) and dives head first into legislation. Maybe thatís needed. Iím not convinced nowís the time, but itís not far off without system expansion and I agree the concept is a good one. It could be better accepted if an open process were followed that considered the entire system. What would be the harm in spending another year planning the bigger picture?

    Thank you for reading!

    -Darrel

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubby View Post
    Philís...well, itís classic both ways. But itís such a kick going down the canyon uninterrupted that DH only is a no-brainer to me. My only hope for Philís is that it doesnít (DOES NOT) turn into another Whoops Trail. Thereís no doubt some improvement could be made to make it more sustainable and improve the fun. But Whoops has become so specialized that it just isnít fun for a lot of folks (real cyclists included) and itíd be a real shame for the namesake trail in the system to be enjoyed by only those with the guts and commitment to ďsend it.Ē
    That is a valid point. Some of our trails have been slowly morphing from aesthetic trails to long distance terrain parks. The DH designation would be a natural next step in the process. The DH shuttle riders will pound the trails, and in the maintenance process, they will become "enhanced".

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Respectthetrails View Post
    You are falsely accusing me of not being involved, not attending meetings, and not doing trail work. This stays anonymous because of the dictatorship that currently exists at COTA.

    This is also not a rant. This is to shed light on a bad decision making process, a lack of transparency, and the Board members of COTA being controlled by Paul and Woody into doing their bidding.

    To address your second point about flat trails. Phil's area is flat by comparison to the other areas discussed. I want to ride both ways on any trail I want to. The last thing I need to hear is that "This trail is one way dude".

    Case in point... I had a mechanical on the way up North Fork trail. I was near happy valley but I could not go on. So on a busy Saturday I rode my bike respectfully back down North Fork trail. Along the way I came across numerous hikers and mountain bikers that scolded me for going downhill on an uphill only trail. I took it in stride but it sucked big time. (For the record North Fork trail is signed as uphill only but administratively it is not.) Either way I had to get out of the trail network and unless I wanted to walk up North Fork all the way to happy valley, do the rest of the climb pushing my bike to Farewell trail I had to go downhill. This could happen on Bens trail as well. Can you see this as a recipe for conflict? I did and I do.

    If COTA continues to ignore the amount of work that needs to be done in the Phil's Triangle to make it a better riding experience and decides only to apply rules to the area we all lose. Wanoga has consumed massive amounts of money and labor and is a really great new area, well done COTA. But in the Phil's area all we have had are some Trail Love stickers, and a mostly disgusted eye turned away by COTA.

    What we need are more trails to reduce the load on the network. We need beginner loops close to the trailhead so the Moms and Dads are not trying to teach their kids how to ride in the main flow of the trails. Make those one way if you like.

    More than anything if you do decide to make trails one way give us all an option of a second trail that gains the same distance to the same junction. At least that way you satisfy all the members and public that are going to come out of the woodwork against your seemingly well thought out plan.

    Post #3
    you could have walked your bike down, cause mechanicals don't give you a valid reason to ride down north fork, nothing does. actions like this will get north fork closed to bikers...
    live to ride, ride to party.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by imadumas View Post
    you could have walked your bike down, cause mechanicals don't give you a valid reason to ride down north fork, nothing does. actions like this will get north fork closed to bikers...
    Ridiculous. Go ahead and walk your bike down NF, Bens or whatever the trail may be in the event of a mechanical. But it will be a cold day in hell before I walk down an UH only trail because of a serious mechanical. I have better stuff to do with my time than worrying about ruffling the feathers of holier-than-thou hikers and bikers that judge before turning the cranium on for a moment.

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    We are so lucky to have COTA. COTA has done an amazing job managing our trails and growth. However, with growth comes change.

    Directional trails are a great idea; the pros outweigh the trade offs.

    My only concern is between the trailhead and the Chicken. This should be left bidirectional. The Chicken is a Phil's Trail landmark. A lot of people just want to get their picture taken there. Both my children had their first mountain bike rides to the Chicken. I took my 70 year old parents on their first mountain bike ride to the Chicken. A fourth grade teacher asked how many kids had ridden to the Chicken and almost all the kids raised their hands. It's a destination and bragging rights for novices.

    Getting to the Chicken by alternate routes is too demanding for most novice riders.
    Regulars riding on a congested day know to stay away from (or expect congestion) on Phil's between the TH and the Chicken anyway.

    Hats off to the folks taking the heat for these changes. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and pick apart a plan that I had no involvement in.

    Thank you COTA! I truly appreciate all that you do.

    Cheers!

  68. #68
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    ^ Maybe pop a new little connector over from Kent's to the Chicken?

  69. #69
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    COTA board, secret meetings, one way trails. No member input allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by GauchoGreg View Post
    ^ Maybe pop a new little connector over from Kent's to the Chicken?
    What is KGB / Expressway? Already there!!
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    What is KGB / Expressway? Already there!!
    Well, yes. For you and I and everyone on this thread that is the case.

    It really just depends on how COTA decides to mold Phil's. By leaving Phil's TH to the Chicken bidirectional, the Chicken will remain family/novice friendly. By making it one way, many families and novices would never see the Chicken.

    Maybe the Chicken ends up being a feather in the cap like Heli Pad or North Fork. Maybe instead of seeing the Chicken at age 5 they see it at age 9.

    I'd prefer the Chicken remain accessible to all.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    What is KGB / Expressway? Already there!!
    Exactly as Dr. Chippy said.

    Perfect example is last year, I took the whole family out to the Chicken when I got my 8-YO daughter her new bike. My wife is not a biker, and has an OLD crappy Bridgestone. Neither my wife or daughter could have made it to the Chicken via KGB or the Expressway. But we had a blast going out on Phil's to the Chicken, and letting them see it, and I have some great picks of a proud little girl with her new bike. Maybe the best solution has been made but will simply have the negative side effect of taking the Chicken out of reach for some. But your answer tells us the perspective you are coming from, and it is missing that there are other perspectives, and dismissing them does rub people the wrong way.

    Look, I'm not saying this was not the right action to take. But all those that got together to set up the new rules need to recognize that it is not perfect (and no one should expect it to be). What we are hearing from those who made the decisions is that everything is going to be better. A perfect example was the last line in a post from COTA on the other thread: "Ride when you want, less stopping and see fewer people. One-Way the fun way." Sheesh, sounds totally canned. Pom poms, marching bands, everyone happy with apple pie. Right now, I believe that is the attitude that is coming across, and it is rubbing some people the wrong way since it seems the process kept everyone outside the board out of the loop until all decisions were made, and that we should all be simply thrilled and there will be nothing lost.

    It is very rarely the case that major changes in anything don't come with some negative repercussions. You guys may want to just admit that there are going to be some issues, some negatives, and say that you will try to be responsive and see what can be done to mitigate them, rather than rah-rah-ing and ignoring the other points. For instance, if you are going to be working with the USFS to do a new connector to Phil's up at the 300, and possibly elsewhere, maybe as part of the same enviro work the USFS has to do, maybe it would be a good idea to see if you can mix in a couple other really short connectors down low, maybe one from Ben's to Kent's between the trail head and the currently 1st connector, and maybe one from Kents to the Chicken. Very likely you and most experienced riders will never use them on your own (although early season, you may end up appreciating more lower-elevation trails), but as I see it right now, the new changes are going to be a negative with regard to riding options for those with riders incapable of riding very far, as Kent's appears to be the only option for taking those who would be questionable to make the existing lower connections. This is coming from someone who will not likely personally benefit, because I'm quite sure that by the time such connectors could be completed, my kids will be WAY beyond needing them. But I sure appreciated having the flexibility and ride options that I had when my son was just starting. It would not be as nice if we would have had only one trail as an option.

  72. #72
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    i don't like this idea because it will double the number of people who pass me from behind on the uphill.
    lets not make it a religion, it is recreation

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    Lots of good ideas thrown around in this thread. Let's not forget the underlying issue, and a response below from jtrein that makes me further question this the pathway to this decision being "laid down"

    "I will let the community decide how they feel in a few months and if it turns out bad I'm sure COTA will make things right"

    so you are saying that you are going to ask for input AFTER a trial basis? I've never heard of laws being "tried out" for a bit.

    To the sub-group: Either you are fostering respect among your COTA member by sourcing their opinions, or you don't respect their ability to contribute constructively. Admit it....this is pretty much how it comes off to anyone hearing this news.

    I agree that there are strategies that could be implemented to make lower phil's a better experience, but I'm not sure I can get behind this. And nobody asked me as a COTA member, or COTA as a whole about our opinions. Thus they were never considered. kind of unfair.

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    I for one am SUPER STOKED! The plan in place can only get better. The masterminds behind the "Super Secret, Double Probation Team" have hit it out of the park! Steepness is at a limited supply in this area. Phil's is meant to RIP down, not slog up.

    Jtrein, keep your head up, and eyes forward. I'll buy the "team" a few cold ones!
    Just say NO, to climbing!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GauchoGreg View Post
    My wife is not a biker, and has an OLD crappy Bridgestone. .
    There is no such thing as a crappy old Bridgestone!

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    There is no such thing as a crappy old Bridgestone!
    Well, they really do work well as boat anchors!

  77. #77
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    No. I cannot imagine anything purely joyful about "bombing" anything. Bad for the trails, and especially bad for young riders, such as my daughter. We rode up Phil's to the Chicken yesterday, and will continue to do so until you pry the bike from my cold dead body. No room for discussion, sorry.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    We rode up Phil's to the Chicken yesterday, and will continue to do so until you pry the bike from my cold dead body. No room for discussion, sorry.
    You may be risking injury to self and child if you intentionally ride against traffic.

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    Threatening us is really not called for. She is 2 years old, so running over her could become manslaughter. Relegating us to one uphill trail is also uncalled for.
    .
    Phil's is is a two-way trail. Has been since it's inception. Based on this unprecedented radom rulemaking, and an uninforceable and impractical, non-democratic ban on uphill riding, you are without a doubt risking a law-suit if you hit us. I will use your post and any other post against the change as evidence that the rulemaking in this case is being done in a hostile environment, with a lot of dissent, and not a little danger involved for those of us with young children, or walking dogs or hiking or running on this trail.

    Oregon MTB'ers, you risk becoming, once again, a wheeled menace to health and safety in the National Forest, if you start lording it over and endangering other users. This will never fly, and I will print out each and every post here to use your hostile / irresponsible responses to ensure that it does not.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    Threatening us is really not called for.
    No one threatened you. The directional changes are needed for everyone's safety due to the increased congestion on the trails. Ignoring the directional changes may lead to an accident.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    I will print out each and every post here to use your hostile / irresponsible responses to ensure that it does not.
    I would hazard a guess that intentionally and knowingly riding the wrong way with a young child may be considered irresponsible behavior by some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    Relegating us to one uphill trail is also uncalled for.
    Uphill options include Ben's, Kent's, and Marvin's.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    No. I cannot imagine anything purely joyful about "bombing" anything. Bad for the trails, and especially bad for young riders, such as my daughter. We rode up Phil's to the Chicken yesterday, and will continue to do so until you pry the bike from my cold dead body. No room for discussion, sorry.
    Oh yeah, it's you again. I recall this "conversation" when you were threatening to Ride up funner during an Enduro race last year. Brilliant.

    Don't take the bate people. She will not dialogue and won't respond to reason or logic. She's out to shock everyone and wants a fight.

    Avoid her like the plague.

  82. #82
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    Thanks, 'cause I almost wasted the best quote of all time... "the faster you go the more fun it is"! My wife would not have allowed me to ride with either son, or daughter, at two years of age. BTW, I can think of two specifically joyful types of "bombing" without much effort at all. I hope everyone had a great day riding.

    Cheers!
    Master of Laundry...Lord of Cleaning!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    Threatening us is really not called for. She is 2 years old, so running over her could become manslaughter. Relegating us to one uphill trail is also uncalled for.
    Biggest flaw in your argument is the facet within liability and negligence known as "assumption of risk". You've assumed the risk by even getting on your bike, and now with your statement that you will continue to ride uphill against traffic until the bikes pried from for your cold dead hands has pretty well sealed your own fate should something go sideways. Your 2 year old child? What's really unfortunate about that is that given she's too young to make her own choices you alone are 100% responsible for her well being in the eyes of the court. Hooking up a 2 yr old to a trailer or a bike mounted seat for trail riding is irresponsible. We will use each and every one of your posts as evidence when you are reported to children's services as being an unfit parent. Funny how the wheel rolls both ways.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleatgrrl View Post
    She is 2 years old, so running over her could become manslaughter. .
    Hey you aren't related to guy who broke into my contractors shop, only to be stopped by a .45 in the face. He retorted that if he shot him he'd have sued him.

  85. #85
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    Well this thread took a turn into Crazy Town pretty abruptly. I wonder what the mayor and her two year old daughter do when they want to cross the street? Cause common sense and traffic laws be damned, if you run over her litigious progeny (lets assume the little ones name is Sue), woe be unto you as she gets to file suit against you for manslaughter! Damned Crazy Town mayors, always circumventing the law threatening civil suits for criminal matters that don't even exist.

  86. #86
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    COTA board, secret meetings, one way trails. No member input allowed-dont-feed-troll.jpg
    "ďMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

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    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

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    Almost have a hard time believing the above is real...

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    I was fascinated at the amount of body armor. I have only seen that much at Bootlegg Canyon. Maybe it is for safety... maybe Mad Max.
    Master of Laundry...Lord of Cleaning!

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    How could she possibly get so badly injured when dressed like a knight?

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  5. State Parks Needs Your Input on Mountain Bike Trails Plan
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