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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Cline Butte Collision!!!!

    This evening on our local news(KTVZ 21) they announced that there had been a bike on bike collision on Cline butte. This incident occured on one of the DH trails; the man riding up the trail was 67 years old and sustained head and neck injuries allthough non life threatening, he was transported by life flight to a local hospital. The down hill rider was uninjured and drove himself away from the scene.

    Please people!!!! Use some god damn common sense! There are 2 trails out there that are for DH riding; choosing to ride or hike up these trails is like riding up a gun barrel! Riders on those trails reach high speeds. You are not only risking your life but the riders lifes who may run into you! If you want to get to the top, either ride the road or... RIDE THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!
    If someone coming up the trail caused me to wreck because of their ignorance or lack of attention; you'd bet yer' ass I'm going to have a mouthful for ya, and maybe a fistful also.

    This is just rediculous people; if you want to XC ride, go across the highway to maston.
    I know a fairly large group of riders who ride at Cline multiple times every week, and the thought of what might happen if a train of 4-10 riders traveling at speed, happend to be surprised by an uphill rider. I know the rules! be in control at all times. But when you are on steep, rocky, and loose terrain; even at a mild speed, it can be hard to stop quickly.

    These are the only REAL DH trails in Central Oregon, and they are only rideable in the winter. Let the DH riders play while they can; if you want to hit up some grunter climb, go to horse ridge.

    Sorry about my FTS(Forum Terrets Syndrome), but thats my 2 cents
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  2. #2
    meatier showers
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    Without implying I'd climb a DH trail (I wouldn't), I must ask... is Cline Butte signed?

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  3. #3
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    I climb the local "downhill" trails. You should thank me for clearing the trail on the way up

  4. #4
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    I second the question if the DH trails have signed that they are one way only? Otherwise, how would people know what is going on, especially a 67 yr old rider that is probably not a DH rider.
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  5. #5
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    There are signs, but I'm not sure if there are "one way" signs. There are sections of these trails that are impassible if you're riding uphill; In fact, everytime I have seen someone going up the trail, they have been pushing their bike, not riding it. Even if there were no signs at all, thats still no excuse for going up a clearly DH trail. If I came upon a trail some where, and it was STEEP, LOOSE, and ROCKY, and it cleary had big jumps and drops. Riding up that trail would be the last thing on my mind. I would most likely think to myself, "these DH riders are getting to the top somehow, to ride down these trails; there must be a trail or road to the top somewhere". My stand point is clearly this. If you choose to ride UP a fast and technical DH trail; you are clearly CHOOSING to put other riders lives at risk.
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  6. #6
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    I feel for that Old guy who was injured, but he had been at a LBS in Redmond, where employees told him they are down hill specific trails. You can't get much dumber than that.
    You were told not to ride up the trails, and to take the road; but you did it anyways and got hurt. KARMA
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  7. #7
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    I am actually surprised this doesn't happen more often. Without knowing more about the Cline Butte trail (I haven't seen or ridden it), there does seem to be a difference between the rules of the trail (ride in control, uphill riders have the right of way) and common sense. IMHO there are plenty of great trails out there to destroy your legs and lungs on without climbing trails that are obviously designed and built for the down hill with jumps and banked corners. It's sad these things happen, and while signs would be great, they shouldn't be that necessary.

  8. #8
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    I rode the Matson trail network last June. I am not sure there were even any signs at the trailheads let alone anywhere else.

    When I came back to my car, I ran into a group of 4 mature (50+) riders that took me across the highway to ride what I am now assuming was the Cline Butte area. There were definitely no signs anywhere. It looked like it was more popular for motorcycles. Nothing about the trails we were riding screamed "DownHill Only Trail". Looking back in hindsight we did descend a trail that had a lot of single kickers and doubles. I didn't think much of it even on a fully rigid ss. I wouldn't have thought coming back up the trail on my ss would have been any big deal either (at that time I was at least 195 lbs and had been drinking Yukon Jack all day).

    IMHO, a true DH only trail is one that is so steep and technical that it just would not be worth it to attempt to climb up for anyone. However, I don't make the rules and I don't want to. Mt biking up or down is a risky activity. This incident sounds like the perfect example case for the legal system to sort out the responsibilities of both parties.

    I not making any judgement either way. My original intent was to answer Davey's (Sparticas) question. I didn't see any signs in the area.

  9. #9
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    I feel for that Old guy who was injured, but he had been at a LBS in Redmond, where employees told him they are down hill specific trails. You can't get much dumber than that.
    You were told not to ride up the trails, and to take the road; but you did it anyways and got hurt. KARMA
    Personally I think you're way out of line on this point, Nasty Nick.

    Without signage, assume nothing. Uphill traffic has the right of way. I'm not saying the old fellow climbing should have been there, but if you want to bomb down a trail beyond your ability to stop or completely control your bike, you're responsible if you hit somebody or something.

    I'll bet any amount of money the courts will come to a similar decision.

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  10. #10
    Making fat cool since '71
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    Without signs, there's no "Downhill only" or "bike only" (as at BlackRock) trails, period. I understand the intent/desire/precedent...but also the legality and responsibility.

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  11. #11
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    We are officially waiting to hear back from the BLM so we can add more "No Motorized Vehicles" signs, and "Downhill Only" signs.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Personally I think you're way out of line on this point, Nasty Nick.

    Without signage, assume nothing. Uphill traffic has the right of way. I'm not saying the old fellow climbing should have been there, but if you want to bomb down a trail beyond your ability to stop or completely control your bike, you're responsible if you hit somebody or something.

    I'll bet any amount of money the courts will come to a similar decision.

    --Sparty
    Well Sparty, signs will soon be posted that its DH only on specific trails. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm a heartless bastard; but I follow the rules when I'm riding XC trail anywhere else. I only expect for others to do the same on DH trails. The poor old guy who was injured, was deffinately out of his element; and maybe a little more research on where he was going to ride, would have helped him avoid this accident. You make it sound like we're a bunch of out of control, wreckless bikers! I think you're way out of line! There is plenty of riding to be had here in Central Oregon, can't the XC riding crowd leave just 2 trails for us DH'ers to ride without fear of running into an uphill rider. We ride DH for the SPEED, to see how fast we can make it down the hill, to see how far we can push ourselves. Not to milk our brakes and gently cruise down the trail. This is a forum, where anyone can post their oppinions on certain subjects. THESE AE MY OPPINIONS. You don't have to agree with them. Once signs are posted on said trails, we shouldn't have this problem anymore.

    You cannot become a better DH racer without practice!

    My appologies to anyone who might have been offended, that was not my intent.
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  13. #13
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    I agree with Sparty -- you are blaming the victim here. What if instead of an uphill rider it had been another down-hiller wiped out in the trail... whose fault would that have been? And without signs the default is access to all... coming, or going. If you want these trails to be downhill only and there are enough of you to make the point, work on getting it designated as such. In the meantime -- and even then -- it's your responsibility to ride in control.
    "It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult."

  14. #14
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    I get what NastyNick is trying to say, and I also agree with the others, but, until the trails are appropriately signed/designated "downhill only" the dude that plowed into the older gentleman, IS, at fault.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  15. #15
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    Hey Kook, Interesting hypothetical situation...? If a rider wrecked in front of me... I suppose its my responsibility to stop or manuver around them... I've been in this situation, on both sides, and have never been hit or hit someone else. And yes, I am blaming the guilty party. He was told not to ride up the trails and to use the road to get to the top. If you told me not to run in front of you, while you were shooting your rifle; and I did run in front of you and got shot in the arm, that would be your fault because there was no sign telling me not to do that, and that I could get hurt.
    I am sympathetic for the man who was injured; any downed biker is bad news no matter what kind of riding you do. But the only thing he is a victim of is a poor judgement call, and not using common sense.

    I was never looking to put the blame on anyone, but to warn riders and bring attention to the fact that we have trails that are prodominantly being used a certain way, and that thay need more signage.
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  16. #16
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    I am sympathetic for the man who was injured; any downed biker is bad news no matter what kind of riding you do. But the only thing he is a victim of is a poor judgement call, and not using common sense.

    I was never looking to put the blame or fault on anyone, but to warn riders and bring attention to the fact that we have trails that are prodominantly being used a certain way, and that thay need more signage.
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  17. #17
    meatier showers
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    No, wait

    Nick, I don't think you're a heartless bastard and never meant to imply this. On the contrary I've been watching what you've been doing to advance the sport of mountain biking and am really impressed with your energy, skills & enthusiasm.

    But responsibility is a different thing. I think what's happened at Cline illustrates the challenge some folks (within and without mountain bikingdom) have with downhillers. Some folks in the downhill community seem to believe they have the right to shred on public land without being responsible for their actions. That's just not so.

    A downhiller's need to practice plus his/her desire for the thrill of speed does not negate responsibility for damage unless they are riding on a closed course with posted rules. Sorry. I may not like this any more than anyone else, but the right to shred is not guaranteed.

    If I'm shooting my gun and I tell someone not to walk in front of me but they do anyway and I shoot them, I'm still responsible for pulling the trigger.

    I think this is the fundamental problem in this discussion. The DHer was at fault here but perhaps some in the DH community don't see it. This doesn't make anybody a bad person, it only means the problem will remain until perceptions (and maybe rules & signs) are changed.

    So let's get Cline designated as a downhill area.

    --Sparty
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Nick, I don't think you're a heartless bastard and never meant to imply this. On the contrary I've been watching what you've been doing to advance the sport of mountain biking and am really impressed with your energy, skills & enthusiasm.

    But responsibility is a different thing. I think what's happened at Cline illustrates the challenge some folks (within and without mountain bikingdom) have with downhillers. Some folks in the downhill community seem to believe they have the right to shred on public land without being responsible for their actions. That's just not so.

    A downhiller's need to practice plus his/her desire for the thrill of speed does not negate responsibility for damage unless they are riding on a closed course with posted rules. Sorry. I may not like this any more than anyone else, but the right to shred is not guaranteed.

    If I'm shooting my gun and I tell someone not to walk in front of me but they do anyway and I shoot them, I'm still responsible for pulling the trigger.

    I think this is the fundamental problem in this discussion. The DHer was at fault here but perhaps some in the DH community don't see it. This doesn't make anybody a bad person, it only means the problem will remain until perceptions (and maybe rules & signs) are changed.

    So let's get Cline designated as a downhill area.

    --Sparty
    It is not going to just be DH on cline butte; BLM has plans for more trails of different variety out there. The problem at hand, Is appropriate signage, and edjucating riders. We allready have the Downhill Only signs, and are waiting to hear back from BLM on an official o.k. to put them up. I hope once the signs are up, it will put an end to the problem
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  19. #19
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    So essentially your argument is that because some shop dude told him not to ride up those trails that makes them officially downhill only?

    If some random shop guy tells you those trails are uphill only does that suddenly change them to uphill only?

    Sorry, doesn't wash.

    Without signage there is no direction restriction, trails default to normal practice all riders need to be in control, slamming into anything on the trail (another user, a deer, a downed tree whatever...) is the responsibility of the one that failed to stop.

  20. #20
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    At some point common sense needs to come into play. If I was at the costume shop buying a deer outfit, and they told me to be careful since it was hunting season, it would be beneficial to heed their warning, downright stupid not to. Who is right and who is wrong in this case... I am not making that judgement. It sucks for everyone. I hope the guy who is messed up heals fast and I hope they are able to get some signage to hopefully prevent this from happening again. But even with signs... that most likely isn't going to stop everyone.

  21. #21
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    The more I read the descriptions of the Cline Butte area, I don't think I was in that location at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think I was even in Oregon. I think I was in another state all together.

    We need more "Alcoholics Only" trails.

  22. #22
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydown
    The more I read the descriptions of the Cline Butte area, I don't think I was in that location at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think I was even in Oregon. I think I was in another state all together.

    We need more "Alcoholics Only" trails.
    Let me guess... a guy at the local liquor store told you you had to be drunk to ride that trail.

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  23. #23
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    Let's not try to hold court here. I would hope (pray) that the actual parties involved will be somewhat more civil than the bold accusations on this thread.

    I have to say without signs, the "rules" are a bit more open to personal interpretation.

    A speedy recovery to whomever is injured from this (learning) experience!
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  24. #24
    Daniel the Dog
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    You are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Personally I think you're way out of line on this point, Nasty Nick.

    Without signage, assume nothing. Uphill traffic has the right of way. I'm not saying the old fellow climbing should have been there, but if you want to bomb down a trail beyond your ability to stop or completely control your bike, you're responsible if you hit somebody or something.

    I'll bet any amount of money the courts will come to a similar decision.

    --Sparty
    Just because you are Sparty. Oh, relax, I'm yanking your angry chain. It is always too bad when someone gets hurt and is life flighted regarding of anything else.

  25. #25
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Just because you are Sparty. Oh, relax, I'm yanking your angry chain. It is always too bad when someone gets hurt and is life flighted regarding of anything else.
    You might be right, Jaybo. I wasn't there. I don't know the facts. I could be right, I could be wrong. sans soucie is correct when he says we shouldn't hold court here.

    --Sparty
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
    Jaybo... quit *****ing and move to Texas

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