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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Cline Butte Collision!!!!

    This evening on our local news(KTVZ 21) they announced that there had been a bike on bike collision on Cline butte. This incident occured on one of the DH trails; the man riding up the trail was 67 years old and sustained head and neck injuries allthough non life threatening, he was transported by life flight to a local hospital. The down hill rider was uninjured and drove himself away from the scene.

    Please people!!!! Use some god damn common sense! There are 2 trails out there that are for DH riding; choosing to ride or hike up these trails is like riding up a gun barrel! Riders on those trails reach high speeds. You are not only risking your life but the riders lifes who may run into you! If you want to get to the top, either ride the road or... RIDE THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!
    If someone coming up the trail caused me to wreck because of their ignorance or lack of attention; you'd bet yer' ass I'm going to have a mouthful for ya, and maybe a fistful also.

    This is just rediculous people; if you want to XC ride, go across the highway to maston.
    I know a fairly large group of riders who ride at Cline multiple times every week, and the thought of what might happen if a train of 4-10 riders traveling at speed, happend to be surprised by an uphill rider. I know the rules! be in control at all times. But when you are on steep, rocky, and loose terrain; even at a mild speed, it can be hard to stop quickly.

    These are the only REAL DH trails in Central Oregon, and they are only rideable in the winter. Let the DH riders play while they can; if you want to hit up some grunter climb, go to horse ridge.

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  2. #2
    meatier showers
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    Without implying I'd climb a DH trail (I wouldn't), I must ask... is Cline Butte signed?

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  3. #3
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    I climb the local "downhill" trails. You should thank me for clearing the trail on the way up

  4. #4
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    I second the question if the DH trails have signed that they are one way only? Otherwise, how would people know what is going on, especially a 67 yr old rider that is probably not a DH rider.
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  5. #5
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    There are signs, but I'm not sure if there are "one way" signs. There are sections of these trails that are impassible if you're riding uphill; In fact, everytime I have seen someone going up the trail, they have been pushing their bike, not riding it. Even if there were no signs at all, thats still no excuse for going up a clearly DH trail. If I came upon a trail some where, and it was STEEP, LOOSE, and ROCKY, and it cleary had big jumps and drops. Riding up that trail would be the last thing on my mind. I would most likely think to myself, "these DH riders are getting to the top somehow, to ride down these trails; there must be a trail or road to the top somewhere". My stand point is clearly this. If you choose to ride UP a fast and technical DH trail; you are clearly CHOOSING to put other riders lives at risk.
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  6. #6
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    I feel for that Old guy who was injured, but he had been at a LBS in Redmond, where employees told him they are down hill specific trails. You can't get much dumber than that.
    You were told not to ride up the trails, and to take the road; but you did it anyways and got hurt. KARMA
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  7. #7
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    I am actually surprised this doesn't happen more often. Without knowing more about the Cline Butte trail (I haven't seen or ridden it), there does seem to be a difference between the rules of the trail (ride in control, uphill riders have the right of way) and common sense. IMHO there are plenty of great trails out there to destroy your legs and lungs on without climbing trails that are obviously designed and built for the down hill with jumps and banked corners. It's sad these things happen, and while signs would be great, they shouldn't be that necessary.

  8. #8
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    I rode the Matson trail network last June. I am not sure there were even any signs at the trailheads let alone anywhere else.

    When I came back to my car, I ran into a group of 4 mature (50+) riders that took me across the highway to ride what I am now assuming was the Cline Butte area. There were definitely no signs anywhere. It looked like it was more popular for motorcycles. Nothing about the trails we were riding screamed "DownHill Only Trail". Looking back in hindsight we did descend a trail that had a lot of single kickers and doubles. I didn't think much of it even on a fully rigid ss. I wouldn't have thought coming back up the trail on my ss would have been any big deal either (at that time I was at least 195 lbs and had been drinking Yukon Jack all day).

    IMHO, a true DH only trail is one that is so steep and technical that it just would not be worth it to attempt to climb up for anyone. However, I don't make the rules and I don't want to. Mt biking up or down is a risky activity. This incident sounds like the perfect example case for the legal system to sort out the responsibilities of both parties.

    I not making any judgement either way. My original intent was to answer Davey's (Sparticas) question. I didn't see any signs in the area.

  9. #9
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    I feel for that Old guy who was injured, but he had been at a LBS in Redmond, where employees told him they are down hill specific trails. You can't get much dumber than that.
    You were told not to ride up the trails, and to take the road; but you did it anyways and got hurt. KARMA
    Personally I think you're way out of line on this point, Nasty Nick.

    Without signage, assume nothing. Uphill traffic has the right of way. I'm not saying the old fellow climbing should have been there, but if you want to bomb down a trail beyond your ability to stop or completely control your bike, you're responsible if you hit somebody or something.

    I'll bet any amount of money the courts will come to a similar decision.

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  10. #10
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    Without signs, there's no "Downhill only" or "bike only" (as at BlackRock) trails, period. I understand the intent/desire/precedent...but also the legality and responsibility.

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  11. #11
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    We are officially waiting to hear back from the BLM so we can add more "No Motorized Vehicles" signs, and "Downhill Only" signs.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Personally I think you're way out of line on this point, Nasty Nick.

    Without signage, assume nothing. Uphill traffic has the right of way. I'm not saying the old fellow climbing should have been there, but if you want to bomb down a trail beyond your ability to stop or completely control your bike, you're responsible if you hit somebody or something.

    I'll bet any amount of money the courts will come to a similar decision.

    --Sparty
    Well Sparty, signs will soon be posted that its DH only on specific trails. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm a heartless bastard; but I follow the rules when I'm riding XC trail anywhere else. I only expect for others to do the same on DH trails. The poor old guy who was injured, was deffinately out of his element; and maybe a little more research on where he was going to ride, would have helped him avoid this accident. You make it sound like we're a bunch of out of control, wreckless bikers! I think you're way out of line! There is plenty of riding to be had here in Central Oregon, can't the XC riding crowd leave just 2 trails for us DH'ers to ride without fear of running into an uphill rider. We ride DH for the SPEED, to see how fast we can make it down the hill, to see how far we can push ourselves. Not to milk our brakes and gently cruise down the trail. This is a forum, where anyone can post their oppinions on certain subjects. THESE AE MY OPPINIONS. You don't have to agree with them. Once signs are posted on said trails, we shouldn't have this problem anymore.

    You cannot become a better DH racer without practice!

    My appologies to anyone who might have been offended, that was not my intent.
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  13. #13
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    I agree with Sparty -- you are blaming the victim here. What if instead of an uphill rider it had been another down-hiller wiped out in the trail... whose fault would that have been? And without signs the default is access to all... coming, or going. If you want these trails to be downhill only and there are enough of you to make the point, work on getting it designated as such. In the meantime -- and even then -- it's your responsibility to ride in control.
    "It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult."

  14. #14
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    I get what NastyNick is trying to say, and I also agree with the others, but, until the trails are appropriately signed/designated "downhill only" the dude that plowed into the older gentleman, IS, at fault.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  15. #15
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    Hey Kook, Interesting hypothetical situation...? If a rider wrecked in front of me... I suppose its my responsibility to stop or manuver around them... I've been in this situation, on both sides, and have never been hit or hit someone else. And yes, I am blaming the guilty party. He was told not to ride up the trails and to use the road to get to the top. If you told me not to run in front of you, while you were shooting your rifle; and I did run in front of you and got shot in the arm, that would be your fault because there was no sign telling me not to do that, and that I could get hurt.
    I am sympathetic for the man who was injured; any downed biker is bad news no matter what kind of riding you do. But the only thing he is a victim of is a poor judgement call, and not using common sense.

    I was never looking to put the blame on anyone, but to warn riders and bring attention to the fact that we have trails that are prodominantly being used a certain way, and that thay need more signage.
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  16. #16
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    I am sympathetic for the man who was injured; any downed biker is bad news no matter what kind of riding you do. But the only thing he is a victim of is a poor judgement call, and not using common sense.

    I was never looking to put the blame or fault on anyone, but to warn riders and bring attention to the fact that we have trails that are prodominantly being used a certain way, and that thay need more signage.
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  17. #17
    meatier showers
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    No, wait

    Nick, I don't think you're a heartless bastard and never meant to imply this. On the contrary I've been watching what you've been doing to advance the sport of mountain biking and am really impressed with your energy, skills & enthusiasm.

    But responsibility is a different thing. I think what's happened at Cline illustrates the challenge some folks (within and without mountain bikingdom) have with downhillers. Some folks in the downhill community seem to believe they have the right to shred on public land without being responsible for their actions. That's just not so.

    A downhiller's need to practice plus his/her desire for the thrill of speed does not negate responsibility for damage unless they are riding on a closed course with posted rules. Sorry. I may not like this any more than anyone else, but the right to shred is not guaranteed.

    If I'm shooting my gun and I tell someone not to walk in front of me but they do anyway and I shoot them, I'm still responsible for pulling the trigger.

    I think this is the fundamental problem in this discussion. The DHer was at fault here but perhaps some in the DH community don't see it. This doesn't make anybody a bad person, it only means the problem will remain until perceptions (and maybe rules & signs) are changed.

    So let's get Cline designated as a downhill area.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Nick, I don't think you're a heartless bastard and never meant to imply this. On the contrary I've been watching what you've been doing to advance the sport of mountain biking and am really impressed with your energy, skills & enthusiasm.

    But responsibility is a different thing. I think what's happened at Cline illustrates the challenge some folks (within and without mountain bikingdom) have with downhillers. Some folks in the downhill community seem to believe they have the right to shred on public land without being responsible for their actions. That's just not so.

    A downhiller's need to practice plus his/her desire for the thrill of speed does not negate responsibility for damage unless they are riding on a closed course with posted rules. Sorry. I may not like this any more than anyone else, but the right to shred is not guaranteed.

    If I'm shooting my gun and I tell someone not to walk in front of me but they do anyway and I shoot them, I'm still responsible for pulling the trigger.

    I think this is the fundamental problem in this discussion. The DHer was at fault here but perhaps some in the DH community don't see it. This doesn't make anybody a bad person, it only means the problem will remain until perceptions (and maybe rules & signs) are changed.

    So let's get Cline designated as a downhill area.

    --Sparty
    It is not going to just be DH on cline butte; BLM has plans for more trails of different variety out there. The problem at hand, Is appropriate signage, and edjucating riders. We allready have the Downhill Only signs, and are waiting to hear back from BLM on an official o.k. to put them up. I hope once the signs are up, it will put an end to the problem
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  19. #19
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    So essentially your argument is that because some shop dude told him not to ride up those trails that makes them officially downhill only?

    If some random shop guy tells you those trails are uphill only does that suddenly change them to uphill only?

    Sorry, doesn't wash.

    Without signage there is no direction restriction, trails default to normal practice all riders need to be in control, slamming into anything on the trail (another user, a deer, a downed tree whatever...) is the responsibility of the one that failed to stop.

  20. #20
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    At some point common sense needs to come into play. If I was at the costume shop buying a deer outfit, and they told me to be careful since it was hunting season, it would be beneficial to heed their warning, downright stupid not to. Who is right and who is wrong in this case... I am not making that judgement. It sucks for everyone. I hope the guy who is messed up heals fast and I hope they are able to get some signage to hopefully prevent this from happening again. But even with signs... that most likely isn't going to stop everyone.

  21. #21
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    The more I read the descriptions of the Cline Butte area, I don't think I was in that location at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think I was even in Oregon. I think I was in another state all together.

    We need more "Alcoholics Only" trails.

  22. #22
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydown
    The more I read the descriptions of the Cline Butte area, I don't think I was in that location at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think I was even in Oregon. I think I was in another state all together.

    We need more "Alcoholics Only" trails.
    Let me guess... a guy at the local liquor store told you you had to be drunk to ride that trail.

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  23. #23
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    Let's not try to hold court here. I would hope (pray) that the actual parties involved will be somewhat more civil than the bold accusations on this thread.

    I have to say without signs, the "rules" are a bit more open to personal interpretation.

    A speedy recovery to whomever is injured from this (learning) experience!
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  24. #24
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    You are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Personally I think you're way out of line on this point, Nasty Nick.

    Without signage, assume nothing. Uphill traffic has the right of way. I'm not saying the old fellow climbing should have been there, but if you want to bomb down a trail beyond your ability to stop or completely control your bike, you're responsible if you hit somebody or something.

    I'll bet any amount of money the courts will come to a similar decision.

    --Sparty
    Just because you are Sparty. Oh, relax, I'm yanking your angry chain. It is always too bad when someone gets hurt and is life flighted regarding of anything else.

  25. #25
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Just because you are Sparty. Oh, relax, I'm yanking your angry chain. It is always too bad when someone gets hurt and is life flighted regarding of anything else.
    You might be right, Jaybo. I wasn't there. I don't know the facts. I could be right, I could be wrong. sans soucie is correct when he says we shouldn't hold court here.

    --Sparty
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
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  26. #26
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    Riding MTB is a risky sport, accidents happen, maybe nobody's at fault, chalk it up as life experience, I hope the injured party heals up, gets back on his bike and rides on.

    Maybe the two rides can get together for a beer, talk near death experiences and have a laugh.
    Happy Trails
    Jolly

  27. #27
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    Which trail?

    Does anyone know on which trail the incident happened? Was the gentleman new to riding in the area? I would assume this happened on trail number one but does anyone know the whole story?
    I do know that the whole Cline area is in sort of in a state of limbo and "trail designations" is a loose term. I am not sure if we can call the two DH trails "official". There doesn't seem to be any signage out there except as to discourage motorized vehicles. Last time I was there in the "parking area", I was told I was on private property by the owner. There is very little to even indicate that is is an mountain bike area. Should I then expect the same rules as say Phil's trail? It is definitely a gray area in this area and therefore regular trail etiquette may be different. Sometimes all one has to go by is precedent in lieu of designation and signage. In the 20 or so times I have been out to Cline, I have never seen someone biking up the trail nor did I even think that this was a possibility. I have seen XC riders and have myself riden XC out there but I used the road or a different "undesignated" single track to the top. By tradition, the 2 trails there are downhill only.Legally, I know that precedent is often holds sway especially in cases where there no written, in this case signage, rules or documents.I would argue that it would be reasonable for someone who has experience riding at Cline to expect that the trails are DH only.
    If I were to speculate about the accident, I would assume that the "67 year old man" was new to riding at Cline.If someone is going to recreate in a new place, doesn't at least some responsibility fall on the newcomer to familiarize oneself with the area. Since the person probably didn't have a map, perhaps the only information about the trail came from the bikeshop. If this is the case (speculation of course), then one of the few pieces of information the "victim" actually had was that the trails were DH only. Following this "if then" process, the "victim" knowingly rode up a DH only trail.
    Of course we need signs, but sometimes they do not exist. Sometimes they are stolen or broken. Sometimes trails don't have signs beacuse they are not official trails. When we see signs we should heed them. If we don't see any signage in a "bike area", it might be a "sign" that this is not a regular bike area.
    I would, however, like to see someone ride up trail #2! Just make sure that I am not coming down the trail at the same time because I probably couldn't stop even if I wanted to.

  28. #28
    meatier showers
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    Scenario:
    A guy walks into a crowded bar, flashes a peace sign.
    His buddy walks into the bar right behind him.
    Somebody in the bar pulls out a handgun and shoots the second guy in the head.
    First guys says, "What the hell! Why did you do that?!?!"
    Somebody in the bar says, "It's tradition. Anybody that doesn't flash a peace sign when they walk in here gets shot in the head. Your buddy should have known this. Everybody around here knows this. Your buddy was asking to get shot."

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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
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  29. #29
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    Hope wasted calories

    Pretty intense conversation on this subject.I have been out to Cline Butte a handfull of times and it is a "Downhill area" built by locals to provide a need.I know some of those "locals" have spent a lot of there time making the trails as gnarly and fun as possible and they are.As a practitioner of "beg forgiveness rather than ask permission" I think a good solution would be to make your own sign for the area,if it's done tastefully and looks good more than likely the B.L.M. would adopt that also. I am currently working on a sign that tells people to get out of the car and climb up the road! It's going to be a challenge since the road was made for driving,my fear is that if I get run over by a vehicle carrying bikes up it would be my fault that I got run over because I was riding a bike up a road meant for vehicles. Life is full of "cans of worms" choose which ones to open carefully.

    There really is no wisdom in what I just wrote,just felt like joining in.It's a slow day in Oaktopia.

    Cheers
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    It doesn't seem right to blame the uphill rider when there were not proper signs posted. I don't understand how people are expected to just "know" not to ride up the trail. Not everyone who mountain bikes is a local, familiar with the customs of the area. Proper signage needs to be clearly posted at these types downhill only trails, and even then you should always ride with the assumption that there might be something in the trail ahead of you.

    On top of that, how can you expect people to follow rules on a trail that is illegitimate to begin with?

    I love to rip downhill just like everyone else, but I do it under that realization that there might be someone or something around the next corner. Riding out of control on an illegal trail is just the type of thing that gives downhill mountain bikers a bad reputation.

  31. #31
    ronbo613
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    I'm confused by the fact that one bike rider has a "right" to use a public trail and another does not.

  32. #32
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo613
    I'm confused by the fact that one bike rider has a "right" to use a public trail and another does not.
    Ronbo613, could you explain what gives you the impression that what you've stated is a fact? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
    Jaybo... quit *****ing and move to Texas

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    Clarification

    After reading the spirited debate here and reviewing other information I know about it, I had to question the actual location of the accident. Please check the KTVZ news story in question.

    http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=12027789

    The location of the accident is listed in the second paragraph. Thank you!

  34. #34
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    Ronbo613, could you explain what gives you the impression that what you've stated is a fact? Thanks.
    Perhaps living out here in the sticks is turning me into something that I wasn't before; but I am puzzled by this statement:
    here are 2 trails out there that are for DH riding; choosing to ride or hike up these trails is like riding up a gun barrel! Riders on those trails reach high speeds. You are not only risking your life but the riders lifes who may run into you! If you want to get to the top, either ride the road or... RIDE THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!
    I don't believe I've ever seen a trail on public land that was for "DH riding" only. There may be some; I just haven't seen them. Riding up a trail is "risking your life but the riders lifes who may run into you!" is also something I have not encountered.
    I may have been mistaken that these trails were on public land. So I guess if the guys who ride there own this property; then they should just post the land and they can have it all to themselves.
    My friends and I ride on very hilly private property all the time. Uphill riders usually pull over and let downhillers go by. If somebody made the decision they had a right to run people over just because they were in his way; I don't think that would go over very well and the result may very well be that NOBODY will be allowed to ride these trails.
    All in all; it makes me way more thankful for the people who ride on my home trails. For the most part; going uphill or down; they don't want to hurt anybody.

  35. #35
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    As someone who has only been mtn biking in the state for about a year, I could easily have been the guy riding up the hill.
    I try and find out all I can before riding in an area new to me (people on this forum have been a lot of help in the past), but if a trail has no signs and it is rideable in the up hill direction, I would assume it was a two way trail.
    I don't think condemning this poor guy is the right approach. Actively working to get signs posted where apropriate would be much more productive.

  36. #36
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    Wow, crazy story. My only 2c is, if this really happened on either one of the (2) DH trails out there, & not one of the few other moto trails on the butte I would be real surprised. 1st off, to even GET to the bottom of either trail you would have to ride UP multiple large jumps, drops & step downs, making it VERY clear that either one of these trails are built for DH specific runs, making it very difficult to ride up, and, if you did & could ride UP these obstacles (steep lips & dug out doubles), you would be doing damage to the terrain someone took a big part of their life to build. I know there are signs out there, maybe not at the bottom of the actual trails stating one way DH, but, unless you have been in a closet & have no idea what type of terrain you were on, I would say this area is obvious as to what type of riding is going on there.

    Now, if someone can actually climb #2 trail without dabbing, ****, even making any section on the way up, my hats off to you. #1 trail would not be as much of a challenge, but you would still have to HAB up the 1st 50-75ft or so just to be able to grind up it!

    Hope the fellow that got hit is o.k. & nothing turns out for the worse out there at Cline, it is really a great trail system & a test for anyone's skills just to ride it.

    And Nick, lay off the Monster Energy

  37. #37
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    Yeah bud, I have cut my caffiene intake.... a little.
    Y'all are going to find this hillarious! The news had initially misreported the location of the collision; and the accident really happend out in Maston somewhere.
    This is where I put my foot in my mouth.
    My second thought is, Maston? Really?
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  38. #38
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    The ever-elusive facts! Maston. Hmmmm, you'd have to be "tuned-out" (or in, depending) to have a head-on collision. All we have right now is assumptions, please if somebody has FIRST HAND knowledge of this incident, I love to hear it. Those jumps to conclusions after seeing the media's version of events are always entertaining! But, hey Nick - you do spend lots of time jumping, right? :-D
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    Yeah bud, I have cut my caffiene intake.... a little.
    Y'all are going to find this hillarious! The news had initially misreported the location of the collision; and the accident really happend out in Maston somewhere.
    This is where I put my foot in my mouth.
    My second thought is, Maston? Really?
    Maston?? WTF??? Is there a even a hill anywhere out there?? I fell asleep last time I rode Maston

    Hope the trail building is still going strong out there, miss Bend, just a little though The last downhill I did before I left town I had to climb a steep pitch to get to, but the DH was fun..
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  40. #40
    meatier showers
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    What a relief!

    --Sparty
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat
    Jaybo... quit *****ing and move to Texas

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    What a relief!

    --Sparty

    Yeah, but it's still the damn 29'ers that ruin the trails for us DH'ers

  42. #42
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    Yep, lots-o-jumpin'. Dirt jumping, bones jumping, and of course conclusion jumping...
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  43. #43
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    THE FACTS>>> Our customer came in the other day with a nice gouge in his nose. Turns out, he was one the riders involved in the incident. He said he was coming around the loop from the north, almost near the trail head, when the two collided. I guess it was kind of a blind spot and as he came around the bend, he saw the opposing 67 yr old with about 10' to spare, and the rest is history. Luckily they were both wearing helmets (hence the gouge in his nose) and appear to be recovering good. So, that clears up the air-dang Junipers.

    By the way, Trinity Bikes and COTA are having a build day out at Maston on March 20th. We hope to clear some of these blind areas up and make some much needed refinements to the ridden but neglected trails. We will have info on our website for meet times and location,
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  44. #44
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    Thanks for the update. I'm still curious if a portable music player was in use by either rider. I know some of the sight lines are non-existent but sometimes the audible warning of approaching bikes is sufficient.

    Thanks for hosting a work party out there!
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  45. #45
    mudnthebloodnthebeer
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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    I am sympathetic for the man who was injured; any downed biker is bad news no matter what kind of riding you do. But the only thing he is a victim of is a poor judgement call, and not using common sense.
    It probably never occurred to you that "poor judgment and not using common sense" is a pretty good description of high-speed downhill riding on trails that are not clearly designated and marked for that purpose. I hate to break the news to ya, but the reason that some people don't intuitively think the way that you do is because they're probably smarter than you are. Just sayin'.
    Also, the streets are full of horizontal dropouts...

    BSNYC

  46. #46
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    Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by quaffimodo
    It probably never occurred to you that "poor judgment and not using common sense" is a pretty good description of high-speed downhill riding on trails that are not clearly designated and marked for that purpose. I hate to break the news to ya, but the reason that some people don't intuitively think the way that you do is because they're probably smarter than you are. Just sayin'.
    I'm just going to pretend that the comment you just posted, didn't come out of your immature mouth. NO SCREW THAT!!!! **** YOU DUDE!!!!!!!!! So what if I choose to get my kicks by catching air or ripping fast downhill or riding a tech skinny. Some of us choose to take calculated risks as a hobby, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't make people unintelligent!
    Did you even read the garbage that you wrote? It makes absolutely no sense. No one thinks alike dumb ****; cause if they did, you would move, because you knew that I was going to kick you square in the taint. You may respond to this with more unintelligent thought, but I've washed my hands of this because i've allready wasted to much time on the waste of space that you are. Good day to ya!
    Braun Enterprises LLC, Building Cool Stuff

  47. #47
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Enough with the cursing, name calling and finger pointing. Keep it civil
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    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

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