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  1. #1
    Beer Swilling Clyde
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    Any recent news on Timberline?

    Hey guys, just wondering if anyone has any info on the progress going on at Timberline? From what I had seen last winter work was supposed to start this summer but haven't heard anything since then. I get all giddy when I think of lift access only an hour away! My next rig is going to be heavily influenced by the trails out there depending on if they are more freeride or downhill orientated either way I can't wait for next summer.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by missoularider
    Hey guys, just wondering if anyone has any info on the progress going on at Timberline? From what I had seen last winter work was supposed to start this summer but haven't heard anything since then. I get all giddy when I think of lift access only an hour away! My next rig is going to be heavily influenced by the trails out there depending on if they are more freeride or downhill orientated either way I can't wait for next summer.
    I new it was too good to be true when the initial announcement said there were plans to start trailbuilding this summer/ fall.

  3. #3
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    they have been building but they were stopped recently . Some concerns about something. I forget.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack
    they have been building but they were stopped recently . Some concerns about something. I forget.
    Cool, I didn't realize they had started digging.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  5. #5
    it means 'no problem'
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    There is some "opposition" to the project and they have engaged a law firm http://crag.org/ that is saying they have the intent to sue if the project goes forward.

    Send your comments to SUPPORT the project here:
    comments-pacificnorthwest-mthood-zigzag@fs.fed.us

    egads.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  6. #6
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    I was perusing through the crag link sans soucie provided and found This to be quite interesting. I thought HUB was supposed to be bike friendly. If you attend this event at the HUB, a portion of the profits from your beer and food will go to crag.

    Edit...Looks like it already happened.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  7. #7
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    Don't forget BARK. There is some crossover between staff of CRAG and BARK.

    http://www.bark-out.org/topic.php?id=Timberline

  8. #8
    it means 'no problem'
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    Don't forget BARK. There is some crossover between staff of CRAG and BARK.

    http://www.bark-out.org/topic.php?id=Timberline

    ...and Friends of Mt. Hood:

    http://www.friendsofmounthood.org/fmh.htm

    Scroll down a little for their position on the Timberline Bike Park project.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  9. #9
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    Yes, let's not build a bike park in a ski area, because we all know how little environmental damage a ski area does. It's the same thing as Forest Park - people (hikers) simply don't want to share, and they are willing to take their fight anywhere they feel threatened. It would be nice if Timberline would take the offensive and not let them spin and manipulate the situation as has been done with FP. Question them on their motives, call them out on their bs, then build the park!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie
    ...and Friends of Mt. Hood:

    http://www.friendsofmounthood.org/fmh.htm

    Scroll down a little for their position on the Timberline Bike Park project.
    Wow.

  11. #11
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    vote with a bullet

  12. #12
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    Was up there last week, here is a post from the NWTA forums about the trip -

    http://nw-trail.org/forum/trail-info...s/general/2093

  13. #13
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    vote with a bullet
    Do you really think that is the solution to this (or any other) problem, especially with people in your own community?

  14. #14
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    Last I heard, they will not make the final decision about the park until December. They are currently conducting the environmental impact studies.

  15. #15
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    Here's a good article in opposition.
    http://goo.gl/XRKh

    Funny how we've all been talking about 16 miles of trail, but the NWTA links says they've flagged 25.
    "Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
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  16. #16
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    I like the part in the commentary about the negative affects on Skibowl. If Skibowl is really that worried, maybe they should have thought of building a bike park that was worth paying money to use. I can understand going there to do a DH race, but go there to just ride? No way. Look up 1/2 arse in the dictionary and you are likely to find a pic of Skibowl's mtb park.

  17. #17
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    Can anyone confirm this:

    Ironically, on mountain bike trails elsewhere in the Mount Hood National Forest, downhill riding is prohibited in order to “prevent erosion”, according to the Forest Service trail signage.
    Downhill riding is prohibited on other mountain bike trails in the MHNF? I was not aware of any directional trails around here -- are there any? I have yet to see one in this state.

    Even Sandy Ridge is "suggested" one-way but that way is downhill so they must be talking about something else (or making **** up).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    Here's a good article in opposition.
    http://goo.gl/XRKh

    Funny how we've all been talking about 16 miles of trail, but the NWTA links says they've flagged 25.
    Thanks for that link. Has anyone that supports the opposing view even spent any time in the area that the park would be built? I have, and it is far from pristine back country. (If they want a pristine mountain then level Timberline and remove all of the ski lifts and hiking trails from the mountain.) Hikers and summer snow users will not be affected at all above the treeline/lodge.

    Wow, using Ski Bowl as an argument? They really do not understand. How can we make them understand what is a good trail/park and what is not?

    I am all for riding closer to town and Sandy Ridge is a welcome improvement. It is a 35 mile drive each way though. Too bad Portland is not receptive to anything closer in.

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    Something really stands out on that site: they are proponents of increasing the number of hiking trails on mt hood. I'm not necessarily against it, but it seems odd to talk about the damage and destruction that would be caused from building bike trails in an existing commercial recreation area, but at the same time insist that cutting new trails through the pristine backcountry is somehow ok, and encourage more users in this fragile alpine environment.

    it would take a renewed commitment from the Forest Service to expand the trail network around the mountain, and this is the largest obstacle. The agency has been doing just the opposite for many years, allowing trails to fade into oblivion for lack of basic maintenance.

    But this is also where you can help: the Forest Service has the funding to provide more trails, yet needs strong public support to make trails a priority in agency budgets. Buying a forest pass simply isn’t enough, unfortunately.

    Make your opinion known, and don’t accept the “lack of funding” explanation. Instead, take a look at this comparison of funding for Mount Hood and a couple of well-known national parks, and simply ask that YOUR forest to be managed with trail recreation at the top of the priority list.
    Hey that's me! I want trail recreation at the top of the list too!!!!

  20. #20
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    Thanks for pointing that out, the level of hypocrisy is amazing...
    http://wyeastblog.wordpress.com/2010...springs-trail/

    Opposing a highly maintained and professionally built trail network in a concentrated area already heavily developed as a ski resort, then advocating for 5 miles of trail deep in the Mt Hood wilderness and criticizing the forest service for "allowing trails to fade into oblivion", or um, returning to nature because no one is using them. It shouldn't take a team of biologists to figure out which has the most ecological impact, or an economist to figure out which one benefits the greatest number of forest users. We need to start calling them on this elitist self-serving BS.

  21. #21
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    Oh my god... That is the most selfish, ignorant, hypocritical blog of all time... They're sooo upset about a few new trails at Timberline, yet they're proposing new trails and reroutes all over the place for hikers in the same ecological conditions. Not to mention the build, build, build mentality for the proposed National Park... New byways, new lodges, new trails, more people, drive, drive, drive, spew more pollution throughout the forest, more trash all over... In the meantime, push the bike park onto private land or into active timber harvest areas and build new facilitites instead of utilizing existing ones at a current recreation area...

    Such nonsense... I can't believe they're so blinded by selfish righteousnouss. They can't even get their captions right. That first photo is Black Rock, not Post... Sheesh...
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  22. #22
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    Mt Hood? another Cascades volcano with that eerie, dank vibe? I say we tear it up and let everyone play hard on it till it recycles itself.

    If you don't quit squabbling and just go up there aand use it you're gonna lose it just like FP.

    Shred it!

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    Mt Hood? another Cascades volcano with that eerie, dank vibe? I say we tear it up and let everyone play hard on it till it recycles itself.

    If you don't quit squabbling and just go up there and use it you're gonna lose it just like FP.

    Shred it!

  24. #24
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    I'm not seeing the hypocrisy angle. The guy (a mtn biker, btw) says why he doesn't think T-line is the best choice for a bike park and then presents several alternatives. I agree with him that the money would be better spent in Govy. It's been years since I've ridden there, is Skibowl beyond improving?

    The idea behind the Cooper Springs trail (which passes thru some very nice country) is to take camping pressure off the N side and Paradise. I think it's a great idea, but doubt it'll ever happen as nobody stands to make any money off it.

    And WRT to the National Park dream, I honestly don't think there's any reason to expect we'd (bikers) fare any better under that regime than we did under the Wilderness proposal. IOW, we'd be valuable during consensus building, but expendable afterwards.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I'm not seeing the hypocrisy angle. The guy (a mtn biker, btw) says why he doesn't think T-line is the best choice for a bike park and then presents several alternatives. I agree with him that the money would be better spent in Govy. It's been years since I've ridden there, is Skibowl beyond improving?

    The idea behind the Cooper Springs trail (which passes thru some very nice country) is to take camping pressure off the N side and Paradise. I think it's a great idea, but doubt it'll ever happen as nobody stands to make any money off it.
    There is plenty of hiking in other places, in fact there are some nice yet underused trails behind Skibowl. Why not hike and camp over there and take some pressure off mt hood?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    There is plenty of hiking in other places, in fact there are some nice yet underused trails behind Skibowl. Why not hike and camp over there and take some pressure off mt hood?
    I've poked around in both areas. IMO the proposed Cooper Springs treeline trail is definitely a prettier stretch of country than the backside of Skibowl. But why not both?

    Still, the big point in favor of improving the bike park at Skibowl is that there already is a bike park at Skibowl. (If that's what you're getting at.)
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I've poked around in both areas. IMO the proposed Cooper Springs treeline trail is definitely a prettier stretch of country than the backside of Skibowl. But why not both?

    Still, the big point in favor of improving the bike park at Skibowl is that there already is a bike park at Skibowl. (If that's what you're getting at.)
    Why not bike parks at both? Why is it ok to increase hiking and camping on mt hood but not cycling?

    Why not leave the "prettier stretch" of country alone? Would cutting a trail through it make it even prettier?

  28. #28
    MattSavage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I've poked around in both areas. IMO the proposed Cooper Springs treeline trail is definitely a prettier stretch of country than the backside of Skibowl. But why not both?

    Still, the big point in favor of improving the bike park at Skibowl is that there already is a bike park at Skibowl. (If that's what you're getting at.)
    Calling the "bike park" at Ski Bowl is like throwing a fly fisherman in a ranchers stock pond and calling it the Metolious...

    I don't care where they build the bike park, as long as its not half assed. If T-Line is such an ecological big deal and it falls through, then they should team up with Ski Bowl and share the rewards. T-Line should invest in Ski Bowl and take a percentage back from their summer proceeds, win/win.
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  29. #29
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    Hey, I think lift-assisted biking is like fly-fishing with a grenade.

    I still think it'd be better sited at Skibowl. T-line is already a zoo in Summer. Skibowl doesn't have the summer skiing traffic, the hikers or the Lodge birds. It does have the permit, tte parking, the terrain and access to lodging and businesses in Govy camp. (Tthere'd be a big opportunity for a ride-in bike shop up there.) They'd just need to renew a few lifts (something long overdue) and build a few trails. Govy camp would be closer for the ambulances too.

    I'm not saying it'll happen, I just think it'd be a better deal for everyone. Everyone except the RLK corp.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    Hey, I think lift-assisted biking is like fly-fishing with a grenade.
    You should have just come out and said you are anti lift assist biking in the first place. I wish people would just cut to the chase. Enough with the smoke and mirrors. If you think DH is nothing but bad and want no part of it, just say so. If you think bikes are the devil's chariot and they have no place in the forest, just say so. Let me know where you stand. I respect differences in opinion but I hate beating around the bush.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I still think it'd be better sited at Skibowl. T-line is already a zoo in Summer. Skibowl doesn't have the summer skiing traffic, the hikers or the Lodge birds. It does have the permit, tte parking, the terrain and access to lodging and businesses in Govy camp. (Tthere'd be a big opportunity for a ride-in bike shop up there.) They'd just need to renew a few lifts (something long overdue) and build a few trails. Govy camp would be closer for the ambulances too.

    I'm not saying it'll happen, I just think it'd be a better deal for everyone. Everyone except the RLK corp.
    You're avoiding my question. Why is it ok to cut new hiking trails in a pristine alpine envrionment which will increase the number of hikers and campers in the area, but building a handful of bike trails in an already developed area is bad? I am directly questioning your statements with the same logic you are applying to mountain biking. If mountain bikers should use Skibowl for riding facilities since it already exists and is underutilized, why can't the same be said for hikers? There are hundreds ofmiles of hiking trails nearby why do you need more of them?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I still think it'd be better sited at Skibowl. T-line is already a zoo in Summer. Skibowl doesn't have the summer skiing traffic, the hikers or the Lodge birds. It does have the permit, tte parking, the terrain and access to lodging and businesses in Govy camp. (Tthere'd be a big opportunity for a ride-in bike shop up there.) They'd just need to renew a few lifts (something long overdue) and build a few trails. Govy camp would be closer for the ambulances too.

    I'm not saying it'll happen, I just think it'd be a better deal for everyone. Everyone except the RLK corp.
    T-line in the summer really isn't that bad and no worse then it is in the winter, skibowl barely has enough money to stay open let alone update their lifts. As far as building new trails... they're have years to improve their trails and expand, but once again they're not willing to put the time and money towards the project. Skibowl had their chance to capitalize on the lack to riding options for DH riding in the area, it's time for someone to step up to the plate and build a proper DH park(gravitylogic). Either way G camp would benefit from a bike park at either locations.
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
    http://www.timberlinelodge.com/mountainbike/

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    You should have just come out and said you are anti lift assist biking in the first place. I wish people would just cut to the chase. Enough with the smoke and mirrors. If you think DH is nothing but bad and want no part of it, just say so. If you think bikes are the devil's chariot and they have no place in the forest, just say so. Let me know where you stand. I respect differences in opinion but I hate beating around the bush.
    Where I stand it that I'm opposed to what I consider to be excessive development at T-line. I ride trails every weekend. Have since the 80s. I've ridden lift assist at Mammoth and once for a race at Skiblow. Someday I'd like to go to Whistler to ride. Love skiing there!

    You're avoiding my question. Why is it ok to cut new hiking trails in a pristine alpine envrionment which will increase the number of hikers and campers in the area, but building a handful of bike trails in an already developed area is bad? I am directly questioning your statements with the same logic you are applying to mountain biking. If mountain bikers should use Skibowl for riding facilities since it already exists and is underutilized, why can't the same be said for hikers? There are hundreds ofmiles of hiking trails nearby why do you need more of them?
    Simply put, my spin is that, wrt to biking, T-line isn't developed at all. At least not yet. Like I said, I think it's kind of a zoo in the summer, while Govy by comparison is dead. Increasing traffic at T-line will only make that situation worse. Developing a great park at Skibow would benefit a wider range of players, bring money and traffic to a spot that sorely needs it and preserve the traffic status quo at T-line.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    Where I stand it that I'm opposed to what I consider to be excessive development at T-line. I ride trails every weekend. Have since the 80s. I've ridden lift assist at Mammoth and once for a race at Skiblow. Someday I'd like to go to Whistler to ride. Love skiing there!



    Simply put, my spin is that, wrt to biking, T-line isn't developed at all. At least not yet. Like I said, I think it's kind of a zoo in the summer, while Govy by comparison is dead. Increasing traffic at T-line will only make that situation worse. Developing a great park at Skibow would benefit a wider range of players, bring money and traffic to a spot that sorely needs it and preserve the traffic status quo at T-line.
    I still don't see why it's ok to increase the number of humans visiting the pristine alpine backcountry of mt hood by means of cutting new trails and creating more locations for hiking and camping. I can only imagine the vast amount of destruction that will be caused by having an increase in the number of people hiking off trail, leaving human waste, disturbing wildlife, gathering firewood for campfires, and vandalism. Not to mention the CO2 emissions from all of the driving required to reach the high elevation trailheads. Wouldn't this development be much better suited to a lower elevation area that has existing yet underutilized resources in place? Why can't you hikers leave mt hood alone? If you truly want a backcountry experience why do you need a trail? If you truly want to preserve the mountain why do you insist on cutting new trails and establishing more camp sites on it?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I'm not seeing the hypocrisy angle. The guy (a mtn biker, btw) says why he doesn't think T-line is the best choice for a bike park and then presents several alternatives. I agree with him that the money would be better spent in Govy. It's been years since I've ridden there, is Skibowl beyond improving? .

    I see you have moved on from strawman arguments to false choice arguments. No one is proposing upgrades to Skibowl or Government Camp. Timberline is footing the bill for this and they are not going to develop outside of their area. There is no other option so don't pretend there is.

    Timberline wants us there. We want to be there. The businesses in Govy want the extra traffic and I am pretty sure the Forest Service wants this to take stress off of trails they have to maintain. Everybody wants this to happen except for a few envro nitwits and elitist hikers. The hate of the anti-bike crowd should be recognized for what it is. It is their personal problem and should not be given much credence.
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    I agree. Using G-Camp economics against a bike park on T-line is a strawman. A well thought out, designed, and supported bike park at T-line or Skibowl will benefit the town in the summer. Period. Sure, some people might pay the preminum for a beer and burger at the Lodge that wouldn't go to a joint in town. But, really, G-camp gets an increase in spending regardless of location. Skibowl could have made it work. They didn't Timberline wants to, I don't see a persuasive arguement to change my opinion. Some hikers being weirded out by folks with big bikes and pads is no different from skiers being weired out by 'crazy kids' on snowboards in years past. They just ned to learn to coexist. Hikers still won't have to worry about bikers barreling down on them on the Timberline trail.

  36. #36
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    I'm just not seeing how 15 miles of trail could be worth doing all that often. Especially given that it'll cost $40 or whatever to ride. Considering that there are already nice places to shuttle that are free and lots closer to town, I almost don't see how T-line couldn't be planning on expanding this operation.. That they've flagged 25 miles when the scoping doc asked for 15 says Trojan horse to me. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll happen. I just don't think it's a good idea.
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    If Timberline gets approval for the bike park I'm going to start shopping for a condo in Government Camp. How's that for an economic benefit? That means I'm staying up there, spending money at the business there, bringing my friends who will also spend money, etc.

    "I'm just not seeing how 15 miles of trail could be worth doing all that often."
    "Considering that there are already nice places to shuttle that are free and lots closer to town"

    Okay, so you're saying that 15 miles of DH specific lift accessed rail would be too boring but shuttling the same 1-5 miles trails over and over again isn't?

    Well designed DH trail systems are fun for a long, long time. I don't ever remember any of my runs down A-line at Whistler or In Deep getting boring.

    Also, when I consider how much money and time is spent shuttling it becomes obvious that riding the lift is much more economical.

    How about this: if you don't want to ride the trails at T-Line then don't. But, don't act like the area isn't already developed.

    Again, are you some kind of anti-mountain biking mountain biker Jam esp? The congnitive dissonance must be really distracting for you.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I'm just not seeing how 15 miles of trail could be worth doing all that often. Especially given that it'll cost $40 or whatever to ride. Considering that there are already nice places to shuttle that are free and lots closer to town, I almost don't see how T-line couldn't be planning on expanding this operation.. That they've flagged 25 miles when the scoping doc asked for 15 says Trojan horse to me. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll happen. I just don't think it's a good idea.
    Why would anyone buy a season pass to ski/board there in the winter? It's super expensive with a long drive. Why would anyone go to a lift accessed ski resort in the first place when there is plenty of backcountry available to anyone with skins or a snowmobile (for shuttling)?

    It's ok if it doesn't sound like something you would be into. We are telling you it makes a ton of sense for a lot of us, and it is something we really want. I would buy a season pass in a heartbeat. There is nowhere closer to home for me that has the terrain and environment being proposed.

    Remember how you said you rode DH at mammoth once and enjoy skiing at Whistler in the winter so you'd also be interested in trying Whistler on a bike one day? I take it this is the extent of your experience with the lift assisted cycling scene.

    What if my XC experience was that I rode McKenzie river once 10 years ago, but ride shuttles every weekend and enjoy riding my motorcycle at Browns Camp, you wouldn't expect me to be in tune with the XC scene as you know it, would you?
    Last edited by ride_nw; 10-11-2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: typo

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    I'm starting to wonder if Jam even bikes. Maybe he's just trying to distract us from having meaningful conversations that might yield results.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    I'm just not seeing how 15 miles of trail could be worth doing all that often. Especially given that it'll cost $40 or whatever to ride. Considering that there are already nice places to shuttle that are free and lots closer to town, I almost don't see how T-line couldn't be planning on expanding this operation.. That they've flagged 25 miles when the scoping doc asked for 15 says Trojan horse to me. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll happen. I just don't think it's a good idea.
    First you say you don't understand the appeal and the next thing you say is how much you'd love to go ride whistler? 40 bucks for a day of riding isn't bad at all, think of the gas money you spend on your car to shuttle and wear & tear. If you're worried about the cost you're in the wrong sport, or just by a season pass. Good places to shuttle? last time I was in Whistler we rode over 20k feet a day, where's a place around here that I can do that w/o driving 8hrs to do? You don't think it's a good idea to do at T-line, but just fine at skibowl.... Doesn't sound like you've put much thought into your argument.
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
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    Bikeportland.org has WSBOB. We have Jam esp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noparking
    You don't think it's a good idea to do at T-line, but just fine at skibowl.... Doesn't sound like you've put much thought into your argument.
    In his defense, I think he has put alot of thought into his argument. Unfortunately it doesn't appear very valid to most of us...
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  43. #43
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    Guys, it's a discussion forum. Surely riders have disagreed here before now.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparking
    First you say you don't understand the appeal and the next thing you say is how much you'd love to go ride whistler? 40 bucks for a day of riding isn't bad at all, think of the gas money you spend on your car to shuttle and wear & tear. If you're worried about the cost you're in the wrong sport, or just by a season pass. Good places to shuttle? last time I was in Whistler we rode over 20k feet a day, where's a place around here that I can do that w/o driving 8hrs to do? You don't think it's a good idea to do at T-line, but just fine at skibowl.... Doesn't sound like you've put much thought into your argument.
    Mammoth had 70 miles of trail, Whistler must have at least twice that, doesn't it? I don't really know so I'm asking: Is there another lift-accessed bike park with only 15 miles of track anywhere?

    My question was only partially about whether you'd actually use the 15 miles. The larger part of the question was whether anyone actually believes that RLK isn't already planning on expanding the program beyond their permit boundary. With a couple of buses they could effectively take over a ton of trail real estate, like the Glade, Crosstown and Pioneer Bridle trails for just a couple of examples. That's what I meant by it being a Trojan horse, to guys who're going to use (or guys with a stake in it) it must look like a gift. But to those of us who probably won't use it much, but do use those trails currently, it might look more like a lot to give up. .

    The best argument against Skibowl is that it's owned by a total fawking dirtbag, which is a shame but sadly can't be helped.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    Guys, it's a discussion forum. Surely riders have disagreed here before now.



    Mammoth had 70 miles of trail, Whistler must have at least twice that, doesn't it? I don't really know so I'm asking: Is there another lift-accessed bike park with only 15 miles of track anywhere?

    My question was only partially about whether you'd actually use the 15 miles. The larger part of the question was whether anyone actually believes that RLK isn't already planning on expanding the program beyond their permit boundary. With a couple of buses they could effectively take over a ton of trail real estate, like the Glade, Crosstown and Pioneer Bridle trails for just a couple of examples.
    15 miles is a start, everyone has to start somewhere... The Whistler Park encompasses some 2500 acres, opposed to Timberlines proposed 10... I will ride all 15 miles, over and over again.

    As far as their Special Use Permit boundary goes, I'm sure it's written into their lease, so that would require renegotiation. I highly doubt they would "take over" those trails. They can't even drive cats or maintenance vehicles beyond the boundary without permission. Just like in the winter those areas are "out of bounds". They don't maintain it or patrol it, but there's probably going to be nothing stopping anyone from continuing on down the Glade from within the park. Whistler has tons of trails accessible during the summer that are out of bounds yet accessible from the park and the summit chairs. They don't maintain them or patrol them. I'm sure the same would apply here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jam esp
    Guys, it's a discussion forum. Surely riders have disagreed here before now.



    Mammoth had 70 miles of trail, Whistler must have at least twice that, doesn't it? I don't really know so I'm asking: Is there another lift-accessed bike park with only 15 miles of track anywhere?

    My question was only partially about whether you'd actually use the 15 miles. The larger part of the question was whether anyone actually believes that RLK isn't already planning on expanding the program beyond their permit boundary. With a couple of buses they could effectively take over a ton of trail real estate, like the Glade, Crosstown and Pioneer Bridle trails for just a couple of examples. That's what I meant by it being a Trojan horse, to guys who're going to use (or guys with a stake in it) it must look like a gift. But to those of us who probably won't use it much, but do use those trails currently, it might look more like a lot to give up. .

    The best argument against Skibowl is that it's owned by a total fawking dirtbag, which is a shame but sadly can't be helped.
    Thanks for being honest and finally letting us know your agenda. You're afraid you'll lose access to trails you currently ride. That a fair concern. From what I heard it sounded like T-line wasn't planning on blocking access to those trails.

    And, yes, 15 miles of well designed trails would be really fun. Also, it'd be easy to add more miles within the same area without impacting other parties.

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    On a semi related note:

    Watched an episode of Oregon field Guide last week (don't know why, I don't really care for it.) The episode had a group of birdwatchers who go on a weekend long bird watching fest from one side of the state to the other. They pile in huge vans (which can't get much in terms of mpg) to drive across one of the largest states in the nation to stare at birds (talk about invasion of privacy!). But they probably don't want mountain bikes to ride on trails, be it Timberline or FP, because of the environmental impact. (Perhaps a bit presumptuous on my part, maybe some of them are mtb'ers.) Yeah (spoken in Bill Lumberg's voice).

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil'stink
    On a semi related note:

    Watched an episode of Oregon field Guide last week (don't know why, I don't really care for it.) The episode had a group of birdwatchers who go on a weekend long bird watching fest from one side of the state to the other. They pile in huge vans (which can't get much in terms of mpg) to drive across one of the largest states in the nation to stare at birds (talk about invasion of privacy!).
    Well, at least they carpooled...
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    This article about the Timberline MTB part referes to a trail called "Timberline to town".

    http://blog.oregonlive.com/terryrich...eeks_to_b.html

    I've been on the lower portion of this trail and was told by the builder that the entire trail was completed ~2 weeks ago. He said the top of the trail goes out to the north of the blossom chair lift. I hope to go find it this weekend.

  49. #49
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    I personally can't wait to drop my hard earned cash on lift passes, food and gas to get there and back. Not to mention any future bike shops that may spring up. There's nothing like supporting local economies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hangtime
    I personally can't wait to drop my hard earned cash on lift passes, food and gas to get there and back. Not to mention any future bike shops that may spring up. There's nothing like supporting local economies.
    I'd buy my season pass right now if I could.
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by noparking
    I'd buy my season pass right now if I could.
    Ditto.. probably one for me, one for my dad and one for my girlfriend.

    I've read through all the opposition and I still don't understand their point. Am I stupid or something?

    I'll do a simple Pro v. Con list for a bike park at Timberline.

    Pro.
    1. A bike Park will be at Timberline <-- that in itself is amazing.
    2. Money will be spent on the way up to Mt. Hood at Mt. Hood and on the way back down Mt. Hood.
    3. Building sustainable bike trails will then put that land off limits for any plans that would do substantial harm to the land.
    4. More traffic/users to Mt. Hood means more stewards of the MHNF
    5. This will be a dedicated place for gravity riding... in turn = less poaching of other Mt. Hood trails
    6. More money being spent on Mt. Hood.
    7. Did i mention more Money being spent?
    8. More money being spent = more jobs.
    9. More jobs equals more money being spent.
    10. We're going to ride somewhere ... might as well be on trails designed to handle our type of riding.

    Cons.
    1. None.

  52. #52
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    There really aren't any legitimate cons, it's just the damn hippies want everything their way and there just isn't any reasoning with them. They are literally retarded when it comes to trying to have a civil conversation on the subject. Look at the bright side though the city of Portland just put more bike racks by my house, so we have that going for us.
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by noparking
    There really aren't any legitimate cons, it's just the damn hippies want everything their way and there just isn't any reasoning with them. They are literally retarded when it comes to trying to have a civil conversation on the subject. Look at the bright side though the city of Portland just put more bike racks by my house, so we have that going for us.
    Totally agree with you. The part that we need to look to is how these environmentalists gained so much power. Obviously they are doing something right because any activity that may involve bending a blade of grass is always jammed by their belligerent preaching. But hey, I look forward to my lock being cut by a meth head while it's parked at those shnazzy new racks!

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    I wonder if the term FREERIDE might be part of the problem. Maybe it sounds too close to FREE RANGE (seriously). The term definitely does not lend itself to the concept of constraint.

    I have noticed several times the opposing arguments talking about the perceived problem of having mountain bikers riding off trail (presumably thundering through the forest like a herd of elk) but this just isn't something I have seen happen.

    But, interestingly, I received an invitation from BARK in my mailbox to meet up for a group hike. Exact words:

    "Bring lunch, water, hat, rain gear, sturdy boots or sneakers and be prepared to hike off-trail."

    Maybe going off-trail is the norm for every other user group and they just assume cyclists do it too.

    I'm sure there is more to it than just this but I found it interesting.

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    Did you pay Crack-n-fail to use the term"Freeride"?OOPS...now I owe them too.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ride_nw
    I wonder if the term FREERIDE might be part of the problem. Maybe it sounds too close to FREE RANGE (seriously). The term definitely does not lend itself to the concept of constraint.

    I have noticed several times the opposing arguments talking about the perceived problem of having mountain bikers riding off trail (presumably thundering through the forest like a herd of elk) but this just isn't something I have seen happen.

    But, interestingly, I received an invitation from BARK in my mailbox to meet up for a group hike. Exact words:

    "Bring lunch, water, hat, rain gear, sturdy boots or sneakers and be prepared to hike off-trail."

    Maybe going off-trail is the norm for every other user group and they just assume cyclists do it too.

    I'm sure there is more to it than just this but I found it interesting.
    That is a bit like an an abused spouse wondering what they did wrong. We could call it harmonic peace play and they would still have sand in their cracks about it.

    An argument does not have to have any merit or basis in fact for it to be forwarded. Hypocrisy will also not stand in their way as you have pointed out.
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  57. #57
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    I think that these groups that are against the TL bike park should take a good look at Black Rock and see what local riders can actually do with an area. Trails are maintained and the surrounding area is kept unharmed. Never in my years of riding down there have I seen off trail issues. I hope the BRMBA guys are getting involved because they run a tight ship and can show off what local riders can do.

  58. #58
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    I know I will catch flak for this comment...but here it goes.
    WTF, WTF, WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to communicate with enviromentalists, is like trying to reason with an F'n rock! They love to talk, talk, talk; and listen like a 10 year old with ADD.
    I'm trying to be a possitive contributing force in our local bike community.... but I can't help but feel like the gravity crowd around Mt.Hood has no other choice but to build illeagal trail; when time and time again; after working so dilligently with local land managers to make something happen, just to be shut down by self centered, close minded, righteous treehuggers.
    You and your damn off trail hiking excursions should be treated just the same as riding a bike in wilderness. You think your boots don't do damage???? You people truely have a twisted sense of reality.
    That is my OPPINION, and my 2 cents... Get over it allready! we're not drilling for crude on the side of Mt.Hood for christ sakes!
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyNick
    I know I will catch flak for this comment...but here it goes.
    WTF, WTF, WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to communicate with enviromentalists, is like trying to reason with an F'n rock! They love to talk, talk, talk; and listen like a 10 year old with ADD.
    I'm trying to be a possitive contributing force in our local bike community.... but I can't help but feel like the gravity crowd around Mt.Hood has no other choice but to build illeagal trail; when time and time again; after working so dilligently with local land managers to make something happen, just to be shut down by self centered, close minded, righteous treehuggers.
    You and your damn off trail hiking excursions should be treated just the same as riding a bike in wilderness. You think your boots don't do damage???? You people truely have a twisted sense of reality.
    That is my OPPINION, and my 2 cents... Get over it allready! we're not drilling for crude on the side of Mt.Hood for christ sakes!
    I am NOT condoning the activity of building illeagal trails on Mt.Hood; but I hope you see what I'm geting at.
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  60. #60
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    Some recent news, digest at will: http://www.bark-out.org/article.php?id=703
    Last edited by mattsavage; 02-09-2011 at 07:10 PM.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsavage
    Some recent news, digest at will: http://www.bark-out.org/article.php?id=703
    It looks like this was published (online at least) buy the Portland Tribune and the Sandy Post. God I hate these people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity
    It looks like this was published (online at least) buy the Portland Tribune and the Sandy Post. God I hate these people.
    Yep, the sad thing is I think this is my mother in-laws cousin who wrote this and who I see once a year at a local family re-union. That stinks and pretty sure it is him cause I have seen him post info at re-unions on protecting and restoring areas of Cooper Spur as well. Retired cop with a bunch of extra time on his hands trying to "protect" the third most visited mountain/national forest in the states that has been getting thrashed ever since they built charilifts and allowed cars to drive up there over the past 75yrs. If you can ski it, why not be able to bike it as well
    Ride On!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta
    Yep, the sad thing is I think this is my mother in-laws cousin who wrote this and who I see once a year at a local family re-union. That stinks and pretty sure it is him cause I have seen him post info at re-unions on protecting and restoring areas of Cooper Spur as well. Retired cop with a bunch of extra time on his hands trying to "protect" the third most visited mountain/national forest in the states that has been getting thrashed ever since they built charilifts and allowed cars to drive up there over the past 75yrs. If you can ski it, why not be able to bike it as well
    Any chance you can shart in his beer?
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity
    Any chance you can shart in his beer?
    LMAO
    Ride On!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta
    Yep, the sad thing is I think this is my mother in-laws cousin who wrote this and who I see once a year at a local family re-union. That stinks and pretty sure it is him cause I have seen him post info at re-unions on protecting and restoring areas of Cooper Spur as well. Retired cop with a bunch of extra time on his hands trying to "protect" the third most visited mountain/national forest in the states that has been getting thrashed ever since they built charilifts and allowed cars to drive up there over the past 75yrs. If you can ski it, why not be able to bike it as well
    Man, I feel for you... I've always suspected one of my relatives of being a Nazi war criminal. I'm not sure which is worse...
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta
    Yep, the sad thing is I think this is my mother in-laws cousin who wrote this and who I see once a year at a local family re-union. That stinks and pretty sure it is him cause I have seen him post info at re-unions on protecting and restoring areas of Cooper Spur as well. Retired cop with a bunch of extra time on his hands trying to "protect" the third most visited mountain/national forest in the states that has been getting thrashed ever since they built charilifts and allowed cars to drive up there over the past 75yrs. If you can ski it, why not be able to bike it as well
    you know what you need to do.
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
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  67. #67
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    30 Day public comment period has begun again... Show your support!

    comments-pacificnorthwest-mthood-zigzag@fs.fed.us
    http://www.timberlinelodge.com/mountainbike/

    <a href=http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gDfxMDT8MwRydLA1cj72 BTMwMTAwjQL8h2VAQArb-_RA!!/?ss=110606&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&navid=130110000 000000&pnavid=130000000000000&accessDB=true&positi on=Project*&groupid=32278&ttype=projectdetail&pnam e=Mt.%20Hood%20National%20Forest-%20Projects>EIS</a>
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  68. #68
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    I sent in my new email as soon as I got that this afternoon.

  69. #69
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    Email sent.

  70. #70
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    two emails sent this should be cross posted on the main DH forum as well as any other place you guys can think about
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
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  71. #71
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    E-mail sent. I also had my wife send a version. We might as well get full representation from MTB households.

    The purpose and need for action section of the of the project documentation is pretty interesting. Pages 7-14 address the concerns raised by the anti-bike crowd. It is pretty funny. No straw is too small to grasp at.

    http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558...LT2_034554.pdf
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  72. #72
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    email sent.

    I too enjoyed the FS PDF.
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  73. #73
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    email sent. Please voice your support!

  74. #74
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    COTA Supports the Timberline Bike Park

    Here is the message I just posted to the COTA website:

    The proposed Timberline Bike Park Preliminary Environmental Assessment has been uploaded to the Forest Service website and the formal 30 day comment period began on March 6. There has been much publicity generated from the groups that oppose this downhill bike park, unfortunately most of it based more on emotion than on fact.

    The Timberline proposal meets an under-developed need for gravity mountain biking near Portland and it has been thoroughly analzed by the Forest Service. By following the link below you can view all the documentation and download a map of this proposal.

    COTA Supports the development of this Timberline Downhill Bike Park for several reasons:

    1. The trail system design is consistent with best trail building practices for sustainability, drainage and user enjoyment. The park was designed by Whistler Gravity Research - the most respected bike park design group in the industry.

    2. The needs for this type of riding are growing and the opportunities for LEGAL mountain bike DH use are stagnant or shrinking. This Park will service a growing sector of the sport by meeting an increasingly large public need.

    3. The area being proposed for development has already been impacted by several ski runs and a high-speed chair which services Timberline Lodge itself. It is hardly "pristine wilderness" as the opposition claims.

    4. The nearby Mt. Hood Wilderness areas are already closed to bicycle use and those groups that oppose this project are actually seeking MORE Wilderness on Mt. Hood. The trails being proposed for the Timberline Mountain Bike Park will be designated and signed for downhill bicycle traffic only. The opposition's statement that this trail system will increase user conflicts with equestrians and hikers is patently absurd. It will REDUCE conflicts.

    5. Lastly, as the population of mountain bikers grows, so does the need for a wider range of opportunities for them. The Timberline Bike Park proposal not only meets a growing need but it will also reduce the instance of illegally-built trails on public lands. In short, please support this project!

    The Forest Service MUST hear from anyone (and everyone) that supports this project if it is to move forward. If you or anyone you know would ever make use of such an opportunity, NOW is the time to voice your support!

    You can send a letter in your own words or copy what we have written above. Please send your coments in support of the Timberline Mountain Bike Trails and Skills Park to:

    comments-pacificnorthwest-mthood-zigzag@fs.fed.us

    For questions call or write Christy Covington, 503-622-3191, ext 668

    The Mount Hood National Forest website is located at http://www.fs.usda.gov/mthood.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  75. #75
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    Email sent!

    The MTB support meeting is set for Thursday March 17 at 4:00 at Zig Zag Ranger station.

    Why did they schedule a meeting at 4:00 PM on a weekday?! How many people are willing to or able to leave work for this? How about a Saturday morning? The turnout would be much better...
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13
    Email sent!

    The MTB support meeting is set for Thursday March 17 at 4:00 at Zig Zag Ranger station.

    Why did they schedule a meeting at 4:00 PM on a weekday?! How many people are willing to or able to leave work for this? How about a Saturday morning? The turnout would be much better...
    The USFS admin people are probably off Friday... I have a meeting with the Corp of Engineers at 3 that day for the same reason, last thing to squeeze in before the 3 day weekend.

    It's a bummer, the only people who could attend are the retirees that make up Friends of Mt. Hood...

    I hope our reps from all the local MTB groups will be able to make a cameo, including IMBA.
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  77. #77
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    Email sent. Let's get it done!!

  78. #78
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    Another support email sent. I am putting the March 17 meeting on my calendar and planning to attend. Think I can get out of work early enough to make it.
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  79. #79
    B42
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    I'll be there the 17th. Already worked it out. I'll try to get as many locals as possible. I know it's tough for people from town to get here at that time.

  80. #80
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    Nice editorial in support of the bike park

    Here is an editorial in support of the Timberline Bike Park. It is a nice response to the recent editorials we have seen.

    http://www.theoutlookonline.com/opin...59896814554800

    Make sure you get your comments in. We don't want to be out maneuvered on this one.
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  81. #81
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    I have sent in my letter.

    Now, I am trying to convince the good people at Cog Wild to provide their vans to bring a bunch of supporters from Bend to the meeting in Zig Zag... Stay tuned...

    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  82. #82
    B42
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    The following is the text of a letter I received yesterday from the Forest service. I'll also include a link to the original PDF.

    Link:
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1105601/TMBPLetter.pdf

    March 8, 2011

    Dear Interested Citizen,

    The Mt. Hood National Forest is seeking comments and input from the public for the Timberline Ski Area Mountain Bike Trails and Skill Park Proposal. The project is located on the Zigzag Ranger District of the Mt. Hood National Forest, Oregon.

    We will be hosting an open house at the Zigzag Ranger Station on Thursday March 17th, from 4:00-7:00 pm in the Evergreen Conference Room, located behind the main office building (south side of why, follow signs). This will be an opportunity for you and other interested citizens to have a first-hand look at the proposed project map in larger scale, and talk with the project team members. Since there will be no formal presentations at the open house, please feel free to come at any time.

    The Timberline Ski Area Mountain Bike Trails and Skill Park Environmental Assessment (EA) is still in the process of being completed and no decision has been made yet. The Forest is requesting your comments on this project through our website or at this open house.

    A copy of the proposed action and preliminary assessment can be viewed from the Forest web site at http://www.fs.usda.gov/mthood, in the Land and Resources Management section under "Projects".

    Requests for additional information on the open house should be addressed to Christy Covington ccovington@fs.fed.us, 503 622-2030.

    Thank you for you interest and participation in this process.

    Sincerely,
    Bill Westbrook
    Zigzag District Ranger

  83. #83
    MattSavage
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    Mt. Hood NF has a new Forest Supervisor... According to the USDA he's an "avid hiker, naturalist, and fly fisherman... with a BA in Natural Resource Conservation."

    If only it read that he was an "avid mtn. biker..." I wonder how his role affects trail advocacy and final decision making...?
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsavage
    Mt. Hood NF has a new Forest Supervisor... According to the USDA he's an "avid hiker, naturalist, and fly fisherman... with a BA in Natural Resource Conservation."

    If only it read that he was an "avid mtn. biker..." I wonder how his role affects trail advocacy and final decision making...?
    I consider myself an avid mt biker that is also an avid hiker/backpacker (I usually spend at least 15 nights out a year) and even a naturalist, but I don't have a degree in Natural Resources...I do support the TLine bike park. Plus, I bet we can assume there are a lot of mt bikers that enjoy fly fishing.

    So are you just fear mongering?
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by B42
    The following is the text of a letter I received yesterday from the Forest service. I'll also include a link to the original PDF.

    Link:
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1105601/TMBPLetter.pdf

    Apparently the people at BARK think this Open House will be a good time to show up and to protest the project:

    MAR
    17
    THU
    Open House for Timberline Mountain Bike Park
    Thursday, March 17th, 4:00 pm
    The Forest Service will be hosting an open house on the Timberline Mountain Bike Trails and Skills Park proposal on Thursday March 17 in the Evergreen Conference Room at the Zigzag Ranger Station, 70220 E. Highway 26, Zigzag, OR 97049

    Please join us and let the Forest Service know that this fragile high elevation alpine area is the wrong place to build a high impact 17 mile downhill bike trail network. This project will have significant impacts on the wildlife that visit this area in the summertime and also harm the headwaters of Still Creek, a salmon bearing stream.

    If you are interested in carpooling from the Bark office please call us at 503-331-0374.
    I think we should do our collective best to show up also.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  86. #86
    MattSavage
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan

    So are you just fear mongering?
    No... Did I type anything negative or offensive about those activities? I simply noted that it didn't state that he was an avid mtn. biker, and that I wished that it had, and I speculated as to his position and impact in decision making.

    It's not like I typed "Holy shut, there's an environazi running MHNF and everythings gonna be shut down for mtb'ing... Everyone on guard!" That would be fear mongering. I think that's what your suggesting I was implying, which is not the case.

    I do feel a new top position within the Forest is relevant to the subject at hand, especially since the outcome of this park could set precedence in how gravity assisted mtb'ing is handled in the future on National Forest lands.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie
    I think we should do our collective best to show up also.
    Agreed. Thanks for the heads up on BARK. Anyone who can take a half-day to attend the meeting, it would be great to mobilize supporters. This is important.

    Details (again):

    Open House for Timberline Mountain Bike Park
    Thursday, March 17th, 4:00 pm

    Evergreen Conference Room
    Zigzag Ranger Station
    70220 E. Highway 26
    Zigzag, OR 97049
    dig...

  88. #88
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    More info on BARK

    The following is pasted from the BARK web site. We need to get everyone involved to prevent this from happening to us. We know they lie. We know they fear monger. We know they try to confuse the issues. Unfortunately, we also know they have numbers. We need all hands on deck to stop this misguided group.


    Quote Originally Posted by bark-out.org
    The Forest Service has finalized its plan for ATVs, dirtbikes, and other off-highway vehicles (OHVs) in Mt. Hood National Forest

    Prior to this decision Mt. Hood was open to OHV use everywhere that wasn't posted closed. 36 percent of Mt. Hood's 1.1 million acres were open for OHV use. OHV use was allowed on 2,463 miles of roads and cross country travel was allowed. With this decision OHV users will be limited to about 143 miles of designated roads and trails in LaDee Flats, McCubbins Gulch, and Rock Creek.

    The Forest Service received thousands of comments, including 715 from Barkers, on its draft EIS. The agency considered creating OHV areas in extremely sensitive parts of the forest including Bear Creek, Peavine, Graham Pass, Mt. Defiance, and Gibson Prairie. However, they received overwhelming opposition from its own experts, other agencies, and the public. Fortunately these areas have been spared.

    53 percent of people who visit Mt. Hood come to hike and only .52 percent of Mt. Hood's visitors are there to ride ATVs, dirtbikes, and other OHVs. While OHV users are only a small percentage of Mt. Hood's visitors, they have had a substantial adverse impact on the forest. Bark is pleased that the Forest Service listened to the thousands of Oregonians who asked them to protect our drinking water, wildlife habitat, and quiet recreation opportunities from noisy polluting OHVs.

    While this decision is an important step in the right direction, we will continue to monitor OHV use in Mt. Hood and the effectiveness of this plan at reducing the harm caused by OHVs.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  89. #89
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    An article just went up on Oregonlive about the meeting on Thursday. It states that friends of Mt Hood think this project is a horrible example of "old fashion urban sprawl". Blow up the comments section with your support!

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by missoularider
    An article just went up on Oregonlive about the meeting on Thursday. It states that friends of Mt Hood think this project is a horrible example of "old fashion urban sprawl". Blow up the comments section with your support!
    Blow up the comments section with well thought out, non-offensive comments.

  91. #91
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    Done. I'm 5-Spot on the Oregon live Board.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/environmen...discussio.html

  92. #92
    B42
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    If you read the original, let's just say I'm an idiot and posted on a different blog entry.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...n_timberl.html

  93. #93
    MattSavage
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    Quote Originally Posted by B42
    If you read the original, let's just say I'm an idiot and posted on a different blog entry.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...n_timberl.html

    Yeah, there's many versions floating around on there....
    Last edited by mattsavage; 03-16-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hangtime
    Done. I'm 5-Spot on the Oregon live Board.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/environmen...discussio.html
    Nice post.
    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    The internet sounds like a tough place to ride.

  95. #95
    B42
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    Ok, so none of the bloggers with authorize my comments. Since I wrote them all out I'll post them here so I'll feel better. Please feel free to ignore me.

    =================================================

    <b>I'm excited</b> about the possibility of a bike park and think that if it's run properly under the guidance of the Forest Service and RLK we will see the benefits far outweigh any negatives. I see three very positive effects of the proposal.

    <b>Continued growth of Summer camps</b>
    When I was a teenager I attended ski camps during the summer and spent the afternoons in Government Camp. Back then there was not much to do so we ended up running around town like a pack of stray dogs, much to the chagrin of the tourists and shop keepers of the area. Over the years there has been development of recreational activities for kids attending ski and snowboard camps and these have helped continue the stelar reputation of the area for summertime snow sports.

    <p>Kids that can ski and snowboard in the morning and skateboard, bike, or play at Ski Bowl in the afternoon, are kids that come back year after year to the summer camps. This is because they are having fun their entire visit and not just a few hours in the morning. Adding lift-assisted mountain biking will not only bring the summer camp kids back, but also bring people up from Portland, Boise, Bend, Olympia, and other places. The existing summer camps will continue to thrive, and new ones could even be opened supported by the new downhill mountain biking.<br />

    <b>Jobs created, saved, and enhanced</b>
    This park could be a job creation dream at a time when Oregon is trying to stop the pain of this recession we're in. Let's look first at the completely new jobs that I can think of. <br />
    <li>People need to run the chair lift (that's probably 4-5 jobs).</li><br />
    <li>There will need to be additional people to maintain the chair as well (probably 1 additional to the normal summer staff). All of these positions would normally have been laid off for the summer. <br>
    <li>Timberline will probably rent bikes so that visitors can enjoy the beginner trails and experience more of the mountain than they could in a short time hiking. People will need to staff that as well (probably 4-5 more jobs). </li><br />
    <li>Most of the skiers don't come down from the ski runs until the end of the day, so they don't spend much time near the lodge and don't use many of the local services. Because the "skills park" will be near the new concrete day lodge, I think RLK (the company that runs Timberline) expects people to use the day lodge a lot more for Mountain Biking than the skiers do. Depending on how many bikers there are, Timberline might need to add food service staff to serve lunch/snacks etc. At a minimum, they will want to have a food/snack cart for the bikers (this could be 2-3 people, or 7-8 depending on the day).<br />
    <li>What about jobs that might be saved or enhanced? Government camp could use more activity in the off season. It's difficult today to keep a business open during the summer around Government Camp and the Welches area. In many cases, there isn't enough tourism from hikers and sightseers to keep the doors open (skiers fill this void in the winter). I'm hoping that we will see ski shops of the winter turned into bike shops of the summer to support the summer camp kids and the tourists from out of town. Especially the ones from out of state that will stay in the hotels from Sandy to Government camp. They'll bring their husbands and wives and kids that might not even ride mountain bikes. So the family will spend time in the area hiking and shopping and sightseeing (maybe even riding the beginner trails at Timberline). All of them creating or enhancing jobs and businesses in the area.</li></li></li></p>

    <b>Continued restoration and enhancement of Timberline Lodge</b>
    Throughout the past 20-30 years (probably more, but I have only been around this long) RLK has been restoring and working to protect Timberline Lodge. The Day Lodge was built to keep skiers and their boots off of the wood floors and give them a place of their own to come in waves and to not be intermixed with the overnight guests, wedding parties, and school children that come to learn about the history of the area. Many of the furnishings have also been redone. Because of the great work they have done and if you haven't been going there since you were a child, you won't know what's new and what's original. All of these things are valuable assets to the area and the historic nature of the Lodge that everyone should be proud of. Unfortunately, these things and all of the work they do cost substantial amounts of money. This new bike park should be able to help them keep the area up to our high and keep the Lodge running well.

    <b>Our natural resources</b> are precious and should be used with a well thought out plan so they will be around for future generations to enjoy. I'm confident that with RLKs past track record of preserving Timberline and the Forest Services dedication to service and the environment, we have the right people on the job. They will ensure that Timberline Lodge and the beautiful surrounding area are here for my grand children and yours to enjoy year around, skiing, hiking, biking, snowboarding, and relaxing by the pool of Timberline Lodge.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by B42
    Ok, so none of the bloggers with authorize my comments. Since I wrote them all out I'll post them here so I'll feel better. Please feel free to ignore me.

    =================================================

    <b>I'm excited</b> about the possibility of a bike park and think that if it's run properly under the guidance of the Forest Service and RLK we will see the benefits far outweigh any negatives. I see three very positive effects of the proposal.

    <b>Continued growth of Summer camps</b>
    When I was a teenager I attended ski camps during the summer and spent the afternoons in Government Camp. Back then there was not much to do so we ended up running around town like a pack of stray dogs, much to the chagrin of the tourists and shop keepers of the area. Over the years there has been development of recreational activities for kids attending ski and snowboard camps and these have helped continue the stelar reputation of the area for summertime snow sports.

    <p>Kids that can ski and snowboard in the morning and skateboard, bike, or play at Ski Bowl in the afternoon, are kids that come back year after year to the summer camps. This is because they are having fun their entire visit and not just a few hours in the morning. Adding lift-assisted mountain biking will not only bring the summer camp kids back, but also bring people up from Portland, Boise, Bend, Olympia, and other places. The existing summer camps will continue to thrive, and new ones could even be opened supported by the new downhill mountain biking.<br />

    <b>Jobs created, saved, and enhanced</b>
    This park could be a job creation dream at a time when Oregon is trying to stop the pain of this recession we're in. Let's look first at the completely new jobs that I can think of. <br />
    <li>People need to run the chair lift (that's probably 4-5 jobs).</li><br />
    <li>There will need to be additional people to maintain the chair as well (probably 1 additional to the normal summer staff). All of these positions would normally have been laid off for the summer. <br>
    <li>Timberline will probably rent bikes so that visitors can enjoy the beginner trails and experience more of the mountain than they could in a short time hiking. People will need to staff that as well (probably 4-5 more jobs). </li><br />
    <li>Most of the skiers don't come down from the ski runs until the end of the day, so they don't spend much time near the lodge and don't use many of the local services. Because the "skills park" will be near the new concrete day lodge, I think RLK (the company that runs Timberline) expects people to use the day lodge a lot more for Mountain Biking than the skiers do. Depending on how many bikers there are, Timberline might need to add food service staff to serve lunch/snacks etc. At a minimum, they will want to have a food/snack cart for the bikers (this could be 2-3 people, or 7-8 depending on the day).<br />
    <li>What about jobs that might be saved or enhanced? Government camp could use more activity in the off season. It's difficult today to keep a business open during the summer around Government Camp and the Welches area. In many cases, there isn't enough tourism from hikers and sightseers to keep the doors open (skiers fill this void in the winter). I'm hoping that we will see ski shops of the winter turned into bike shops of the summer to support the summer camp kids and the tourists from out of town. Especially the ones from out of state that will stay in the hotels from Sandy to Government camp. They'll bring their husbands and wives and kids that might not even ride mountain bikes. So the family will spend time in the area hiking and shopping and sightseeing (maybe even riding the beginner trails at Timberline). All of them creating or enhancing jobs and businesses in the area.</li></li></li></p>

    <b>Continued restoration and enhancement of Timberline Lodge</b>
    Throughout the past 20-30 years (probably more, but I have only been around this long) RLK has been restoring and working to protect Timberline Lodge. The Day Lodge was built to keep skiers and their boots off of the wood floors and give them a place of their own to come in waves and to not be intermixed with the overnight guests, wedding parties, and school children that come to learn about the history of the area. Many of the furnishings have also been redone. Because of the great work they have done and if you haven't been going there since you were a child, you won't know what's new and what's original. All of these things are valuable assets to the area and the historic nature of the Lodge that everyone should be proud of. Unfortunately, these things and all of the work they do cost substantial amounts of money. This new bike park should be able to help them keep the area up to our high and keep the Lodge running well.

    <b>Our natural resources</b> are precious and should be used with a well thought out plan so they will be around for future generations to enjoy. I'm confident that with RLKs past track record of preserving Timberline and the Forest Services dedication to service and the environment, we have the right people on the job. They will ensure that Timberline Lodge and the beautiful surrounding area are here for my grand children and yours to enjoy year around, skiing, hiking, biking, snowboarding, and relaxing by the pool of Timberline Lodge.
    Nice post. It is obviously far to intelligent for the Oregonian.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  97. #97
    troubled economist
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    April 4th deadline for comments

    (Or, 30 days from when the public notice was in the Oregonian)

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberline Lodge
    The Forest Service is requesting members of the public to submit comments on the proposal by April 4, 2011.
    Make sure you get your comments in if you haven't already.
    dig...

  98. #98
    MattSavage
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    Quote Originally Posted by B42
    Ok, so none of the bloggers with authorize my comments. Since I wrote them all out I'll post them here so I'll feel better. Please feel free to ignore me.

    Some blogs (Sandy for instance...) require you to respond to an email they send you in order for your response to post. It would say something like "to validate your response, respond to this email without changing the subject line..." or something like that. Maybe check your junk mail folders or something.
    "I wrote a hit play! What have you ever done?!"

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  99. #99
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    Stopped by the open house for about an hour today. Met and talked with Steve Kruze, Timberline Mountain Operations, for about a half hour. The guy is a rider, really the visionary for the park project and was quite open to discussing the difficult topics surrounding this. He spent quite a bit of the time answering my questions. Also met and talked with a nice guy from the Kelso area. Looking forward to what develops at T-Line and getting some more rides in at Growlers.
    Last edited by Glide the Clyde; 03-18-2011 at 01:50 PM.
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  100. #100
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    any word on how it went?
    Voice your support for Timberline Bike Park
    http://www.timberlinelodge.com/mountainbike/

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