Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 131
  1. #1
    newfydog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    276

    $600,000 paved parking lot at Phil's

    Anyone else think that is one stupid waste of our money? We need a paved parking to go mountain biking???? I'm going to ask the Forest Service and our congressmen to let dirt riders park on dirt. We can handle it, really.

    USDA Forest Service - Bend/Fort Rock Ranger District NEPA Projects - Phil's Trailhead Project

    If you wish to submit a comment, please send it to:

    Scott McBride
    1230 NE 3rd Street, A-262 , Bend, OR, 97701
    semcbride@fs.fed.us

  2. #2
    GEAUX TIGERS!!!
    Reputation: RighteousTrail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    389
    I agree. Maybe toilet facilities need to be revamped, but hey, Im good with doing it like the cougars do it.

  3. #3
    highly visible
    Reputation: GlowBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,185
    WTF? Wouldn't want people to get mud splatters on their fancy SUVs, I guess.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  4. #4
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    There's a couple additional things to consider:
    1. This money is partially a grant and partially Fed Hwy's money - it came out of a competitive process...

    2. As such it can only be used for this project - if the Phil's project doesn't happen, that money will get used for some other trail head or pavement somewhere else...


    There is a healthy diversity of opinion on this one. For me, personally I go back to the question, "Who benefits from this?" The answer is easy - visitors and alter-abled folks who want a close-to-town area to visit.

    Easily 75% of the rides I do out of there, I am not driving my car.

    COTA also remains ADAMANT that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will we tolerate any user fees at Phil's TH. The FS knows this. For those who see this trail head as one step closer to user fees, please be assured that COTA will strongly oppose user fees.

    Ask yourself - (as a local) - does this really affect your experience?
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  5. #5
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    ... and if you think $600,000 is a waste, you should check here before you get your chamois in a bunch:


    50 Examples of Government Waste


    edit: I just love #7: Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job.[7]
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    171
    Yes I think the lot there is one of the best anywhere as is. I mean it's not like it's muddy out there in Bend! Dusty... sure. I'd much rather see 600K spent on fully irrigating some of the killer trails there. Just think... a tacky Phil's trail all summer from Whoops to the lot. That's 600K well spent. I'd pay admission to ride that.

  7. #7
    Afric Pepperbird
    Reputation: dirt farmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,720
    When I read this in the Bulletin yesterday, and they interviewed the woman who suggested a (very) nearby campground, I said "Yeah! A campground would be neat!"

    But on second thought, I hope not. There are tons of litter problems as it stands now at the TH. The last thing we need are drunken Yahoos getting destructive and rowdy while camping here. I'm glad the FS is against it.

    (This is not an indictment on most mountain bikers. Just the bad apples you know would mess the place up)

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bubba13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    940
    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    When I read this in the Bulletin yesterday, and they interviewed the woman who suggested a (very) nearby campground, I said "Yeah! A campground would be neat!"

    But on second thought, I hope not. There are tons of litter problems as it stands now at the TH. The last thing we need are drunken Yahoos getting destructive and rowdy while camping here. I'm glad the FS is against it.

    (This is not an indictment on most mountain bikers. Just the bad apples you know would mess the place up)
    I really like the idea of using the money to put a campground in somewhere near, but not at the trail head. I used to be a local, but now I have to camp or stay in a hotel for weekend stays in Bend. Unfortunately, there is only dispersed camping near the trail network. I feel this causes more issues with garbage and land misuse than a campground with toilet and water facilities.

    Bend is an MTB destination, a campground near the trails would be a great addition to the area. Pavement at Phil's is not necessary, at least a campground would bring in fee's for the F.S.
    Portland Off Road Navagators

  9. #9
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    OK, let me reiterate:
    This money is either for the proposed project or the money doesn't come here.

    All the arguments saying, "why don't they spend it on ____" are moot.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  10. #10
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11,493
    I'm okay with it.

    Dutchman - paved/clean bathrooms
    Meissner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Swampy - paved/clean bathrooms
    Shevlin Park - paved/clean bathrooms
    Skyliner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Phil's - dirt/filthy outhouse

  11. #11
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    ^ + Wanoga...
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  12. #12
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11,493
    Yes, also Wanoga - paved/clean bathrooms. Thanks.

    I've ridden in a lot of other cities and states with developed parking at busy trailheads and it did not detract from the riding experience at all. It made for a nice gathering spot before and after the ride where people could eat, drink, and socialize. They were actually pretty nice to have.

  13. #13
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    ... and if you think $600,000 is a waste, you should check here before you get your chamois in a bunch:


    50 Examples of Government Waste


    edit: I just love #7: Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job.[7]
    Major +1 !!!
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  14. #14
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I'm okay with it.

    Dutchman - paved/clean bathrooms
    Meissner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Swampy - paved/clean bathrooms
    Shevlin Park - paved/clean bathrooms
    Skyliner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Phil's - dirt/filthy outhouse
    So true. I think it will work well. Plus....we could use anything to increase tourism in Bend. We need the $$$$ in our local economy. Phil's and our trails in general are a major draw.
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  15. #15
    newfydog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    276
    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    OK, let me reiterate:
    This money is either for the proposed project or the money doesn't come here.

    All the arguments saying, "why don't they spend it on ____" are moot.
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.

  16. #16
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    Good points. Cannot disagree and I am very Conservative. Maybe you and I go solve this thing!!
    Last edited by willem3; 02-24-2012 at 07:21 PM.
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  17. #17
    Afric Pepperbird
    Reputation: dirt farmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,720
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I'm okay with it.

    Dutchman - paved/clean bathrooms
    Meissner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Swampy - paved/clean bathrooms
    Shevlin Park - paved/clean bathrooms
    Skyliner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Phil's - dirt/filthy outhouse
    Hmmm, I don't know. Skyliners pit toilet is pretty nasty, too. I'd never drop a deuce there, as I'd be afraid of flies laying eggs up my you-know-what. I'd be pooping maggots for days.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jaewannabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    329
    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    I really like the idea of using the money to put a campground in somewhere near, but not at the trail head. I used to be a local, but now I have to camp or stay in a hotel for weekend stays in Bend. Unfortunately, there is only dispersed camping near the trail network. I feel this causes more issues with garbage and land misuse than a campground with toilet and water facilities.

    Bend is an MTB destination, a campground near the trails would be a great addition to the area. Pavement at Phil's is not necessary, at least a campground would bring in fee's for the F.S.
    we camp at specific spots in central oregon where you can hit the trails from camp, so i agree that more camping close to trails is a good thing

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    That's what i was thinking. The attitude that we have to spend it or lose it is a huge problem i think. Or maybe the problem is more the fact that that sort of situation exists in the first place. Either way, spending it even if we don't really need it, because we'll lose it otherwise, seems like a bad idea. It will perpetuate spending where it isn't needed.

    There is nothing wrong with a dusty phils TH. I have no problem with a fundraiser or voluntary donations at the trailhead to raise money for improvements, but i don't think this is worthy of more general public funds.

    A camp ground may or may not be a good idea, but as Sans Soucie (is that Woody?) said, it's irrelevant to this particular batch of money.

    I posted my thought here several days ago and also emailed the gov. rep. Do Nothing a Possibility for Phils Trailhead ? Bike Around Bend

  20. #20
    I should be out riding
    Reputation: ACree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,532
    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    This. Not to mention the solutions have less capacity then the current situation? That makes no sense.
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's a motorcycle.

    Worshiping at the Church of Singletrack since 1993.

  21. #21
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    I agree. The level of waste "our" government commits is beyond absurd. The money is just getting printed for all kinds of crap adding to the defecit. I'm not arguing that point. I'm simply saying "the money is already spent" for THIS proposed project. The system is broken and whether we want Phil's paved or not will have zero effect on the system. It is a symptom of a much bigger problem, a very small symptom at that.

    Something that isn't broken is the local "public comment" system. If enough people argue against (or for a different configuration) this project it won't happen. Personally I think it would provide some benefit to those who use the trail head. Big picture aside, this seems good for the local economy. That's my 2¢ not yours.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  22. #22
    newfydog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    276
    OK, wrote my letter to the powers that be.

    Thanks to Troys600 for the link. In it is the link for the 104 page study:

    http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558...LT2_117200.pdf

    As well as the official comment link whichis now open:
    Send your email to:

    comments-pacificnorthwest-deschutes-...rock@fs.fed.us

    The study was great to whip me into a frenzy. It is worse than I thought. Here's my comment, direct from the right wing nut job I'm turning into:

    "The proposed work on the trailhead of the Phil’s Trail complex is an absurd waste of money. In a time when we have record deficits, proposing expenditures as high as $761,500 to pave a parking area for mountain bike riders is ridiculous. The people are there to ride bikes on dirt. They can handle a dirt parking area.
    The 104 page study is a waste as well. It cites concerns that dirt might be compacted by the roadside, while suggesting cutting 64 trees and paving the ground over. It makes no mention that the entire area is next to a massive abandoned pumice pit, gravel practically devoid of any life.
    The forest service paid someone to go out there and count cars 87 days. They found, on average, 26 of them. For just $29,000 per car we can have a gold plated parking area. Just borrow the money from China.
    Any funds available for this project should be returned to the federal government. Anyone who wasted time on the evaluation needs to be reassigned to work the public actually needs."

  23. #23
    COTA member
    Reputation: Dry Side's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    964
    Agree that deficit spending is not good (currently 0.43c for every $1 spent), but the majority of the money borrowed is owed to the US. Less than 8% is owed to China.

    Agree that spending 3/4 of a million $ on the Phil's TH parking lot is a big waste.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: french fever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    17
    and in few years they will call....

    depave.org

    We have similar problems in France,in fact i think we call it "Corruption"
    It's a deal between the county and the company who makes roads and parking lot.

    they have no idea of what they are doing, the only thing important is to get deeper in a abyssal debt...

  25. #25
    newfydog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    276
    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    Agree that deficit spending is not good (currently 0.43c for every $1 spent), but the majority of the money borrowed is owed to the US. Less than 8% is owed to China.
    .
    Hey, don't confuse me with facts, I'm trying to be a right wing nut job. Worse than borrowing from China would be raising taxes on any of the job creators in those McMansions in Broken Top Highlands

  26. #26
    Afric Pepperbird
    Reputation: dirt farmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,720
    I just think of it as, "look at all the money we're 'saving' by finally ending these useless Iraq/Afghanistan wars." I'm sure just a teeny, tiny, miniscule fraction of that can pay for some much needed parking improvements.

  27. #27
    COTA member
    Reputation: Dry Side's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    964
    Until the US can't sell debt, they will continue to borrow at record pace. Anyone who thinks either party will change this is foolish. The growth of the debt is independent of party affiliation. Bottom line, many want and like their entitlements.

  28. #28
    Daniel the Dog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,737
    I agree with Dry Side on the entitlement mentality. I don't know what the answer is? If someone does please PM Obama Oh, I could care less either way on the Phil's deal but it does seem to be foolish spending....

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    396
    Uh oh. Better lock this thread...

    (I don't necessarily agree/disagree, just see where this is going and it has nothing to do with bicycles!)

  30. #30
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    No don't lock this thread, it's relevant to bicycles if for no other reason than the fact that I am going to DC for the National Bicycle Summit to argue for (among other things) continued Federal funding for bicycle transportation enhancements and trail funding such as RTP.

    I don't think I need to remind anyone here that COTA was able to build most of the Wanoga trails due to the fact that we received a large RTP (stands for Recreational Trails Program) grant in 2009. That and large donations from private citizens and corporations such as US Bank, REI, BendBroadband, Deschutes Brewery, Ruffwear, Mudslinger Events and Silvermoon Brewing. It's safe to say we have local and Federal money to thank for many of the recreational benefits we enjoy.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  31. #31
    I should be out riding
    Reputation: ACree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,532
    Curious why you think Phils TH should be exempt from the NW forest pass requirement? Not that I'm for it, but rules regarding which trail heads it's required at should be applied consistently, regardless of whether COTA approves.

    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    There's a couple additional things to consider:
    1. This money is partially a grant and partially Fed Hwy's money - it came out of a competitive process...

    2. As such it can only be used for this project - if the Phil's project doesn't happen, that money will get used for some other trail head or pavement somewhere else...


    There is a healthy diversity of opinion on this one. For me, personally I go back to the question, "Who benefits from this?" The answer is easy - visitors and alter-abled folks who want a close-to-town area to visit.

    Easily 75% of the rides I do out of there, I am not driving my car.

    COTA also remains ADAMANT that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will we tolerate any user fees at Phil's TH. The FS knows this. For those who see this trail head as one step closer to user fees, please be assured that COTA will strongly oppose user fees.

    Ask yourself - (as a local) - does this really affect your experience?

  32. #32
    newfydog
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    276
    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    .

    I don't think I need to remind anyone here that COTA was able to build most of the Wanoga trails due to the fact that we received a large RTP grant in 2009..
    Of course, Phils, Bens's, Storm King, Mrazak were done without a cent of public money, The only input of public money was sending forest service employees out to try to prevent the trail building.

    That fact has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not we need a large expensive patch of asphalt at the Phils Trailhead. Give the money to COTA and see if they find that to be a $600,000 priority.

  33. #33
    it means 'no problem'
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    508
    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Of course, Phils, Bens's, Storm King, Mrazak were done without a cent of public money, The only input of public money was sending forest service employees out to try to prevent the trail building.
    Apples to Oranges my friend... Wanoga trails were almost entirely machine built and those things didn't come free. You of all people. sheesh.


    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    That fact has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not we need a large expensive patch of asphalt at the Phils Trailhead.
    I was just pointing out that Federal money came in...


    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Curious why you think Phils TH should be exempt from the NW forest pass requirement? Not that I'm for it, but rules regarding which trail heads it's required at should be applied consistently, regardless of whether COTA approves.
    Not just Phil's, all trail heads. It's because we are trail stewards who believe in freely giving back to the public that which was freely given to us.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  34. #34
    I should be out riding
    Reputation: ACree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,532
    Good to know. I'll make sure to throw in a paragraph opposing spending for machine built trails in my letter too. Hand built = better trail and cheaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    Apples to Oranges my friend... Wanoga trails were almost entirely machine built and those things didn't come free. You of all people. sheesh.




    I was just pointing out that Federal money came in...




    Not just Phil's, all trail heads. It's because we are trail stewards who believe in freely giving back to the public that which was freely given to us.
    I'm opposed to user fees as well. But I still find it interesting that you're supporting this spending for a TH, and then also saying don't worry, we won't let the USFS impose the user fees that other TH's in the area already have. Reminds me of pork barrel politics and earmarks.

  35. #35
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Love this example of waste. Gitmo detainees to get brand-new $750,000 soccer field » The Right Scoop - I would much rather see $600K spent on the Phil's parking lot than $750K spent on a Soccer Field for Gitmo Detainees......
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  36. #36
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Hey, don't confuse me with facts, I'm trying to be a right wing nut job. Worse than borrowing from China would be raising taxes on any of the job creators in those McMansions in Broken Top Highlands
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation. Remember the definition of "rich" is making $250K and above (family income). $250K minus taxes is not that much anymore. Especially considering how much things cost. Also many small business owners are impacted by this factor as well. This includes many local businesses. Raising taxes will not fix anything. You can confiscate the wealth of all millionaires in the US and it will not even make a dent in the debt. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). We also need to cut wasteful regulations (Education Dept, Energy Dept, Commerce Dept, & others) such as Sarbanes Oxley, Dodd Frank, & Obamacare in addition to dramatically cutting defense spending. It is a super big mess.....America is not so "Free" anymore....Freedom can be found more in places like Canada at this point. Nuts!
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  37. #37
    Afric Pepperbird
    Reputation: dirt farmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,720
    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation. Remember the definition of "rich" is making $250K and above (family income). $250K minus taxes is not that much anymore. Especially considering how much things cost. Also many small business owners are impacted by this factor as well. This includes many local businesses. Raising taxes will not fix anything. You can confiscate the wealth of all millionaires in the US and it will not even make a dent in the debt. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). We also need to cut wasteful regulations (Education Dept, Energy Dept, Commerce Dept, & others) such as Sarbanes Oxley, Dodd Frank, & Obamacare in addition to dramatically cutting defense spending. It is a super big mess.....America is not so "Free" anymore....Freedom can be found more in places like Canada at this point. Nuts!


    Yeah, cuz Trickle Down economics worked so well the last time it was forced upon us.

  38. #38
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post


    Yeah, cuz Trickle Down economics worked so well the last time it was forced upon us.
    You know DF. What is your solution? I also love the way folks throw out statements with no facts. It is not trickle down economics or trickle up. It should be give everyone in the economy freedom and take the government off our backs. Quite simple. The Free Market works. I also have not seen the trickle up economics working too well. Food stamps, handouts, and unemployment insurance does not improve the economy. Plus....only 49% of Americans pay Federal Income Tax at all. The top 15% pay 70% of the tax bill. Enough said.

    A great example is New Zealand. Low taxes, very low debt, low regulations.... GUESS what. Successful economy and rated the #1 place in the world to open a new business.
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  39. #39
    COTA member
    Reputation: Dry Side's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    964
    Getting way off track here, but this video does a good job of explaining how the federal government spends..

    THE VOTE PUMP - YouTube

    Only the naive would believe one party or the other is going to change things. Not until the debt can't be sold with there be change. Easy to say tax more or cut spending. If tomorrow the government quit borrowing and deficit spending I don't think in the near term the economy would do so well. On the other hand if the government dramatically increased taxes to cover the deficit that would not be good either. Any way you slice it, the problem is very challenging and no politician is capable of fixing it.

  40. #40
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    Getting way off track here, but this video does a good job of explaining how the federal government spends..

    THE VOTE PUMP - YouTube

    Only the naive would believe one party or the other is going to change things. Not until the debt can't be sold with there be change. Easy to say tax more or cut spending. If tomorrow the government quit borrowing and deficit spending I don't think in the near term the economy would do so well. On the other hand if the government dramatically increased taxes to cover the deficit that would not be good either. Any way you slice it, the problem is very challenging and no politician is capable of fixing it.
    Spot on. This guy's videos are always superb.
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: darkslide18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,065
    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation. Remember the definition of "rich" is making $250K and above (family income). $250K minus taxes is not that much anymore. Especially considering how much things cost. Also many small business owners are impacted by this factor as well. This includes many local businesses. Raising taxes will not fix anything. You can confiscate the wealth of all millionaires in the US and it will not even make a dent in the debt. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). We also need to cut wasteful regulations (Education Dept, Energy Dept, Commerce Dept, & others) such as Sarbanes Oxley, Dodd Frank, & Obamacare in addition to dramatically cutting defense spending. It is a super big mess.....America is not so "Free" anymore....Freedom can be found more in places like Canada at this point. Nuts!

  42. #42
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    Haha! Ron Paul would be much better than Obummer. Who do you support DarkSlide?
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: darkslide18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,065
    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Haha! Ron Paul would be much better than Obummer. Who do you support DarkSlide?
    Haven't decided yet. Actually, Ron Paul is half right. Too bad he is so wrong on the other half.
    And as far your comment how 250 grand isn't that much? Well, the avg income in this country is around 30-40 grand. A lot of the people who make those wages are raising families as well. It is called perspective. :Let me ask you this: As a "Job Creator", if you were to have your taxes lowered would you A: create more jobs? B: Maybe give a raise to your work force?

    One more thing: if you are a small business owner who is bringing home 250 grand before taxes you are doing better than 90 percent of small business owners. Again, perspective.

  44. #44
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    Haven't decided yet. Actually, Ron Paul is half right. Too bad he is so wrong on the other half.
    And as far your comment how 250 grand isn't that much? Well, the avg income in this country is around 30-40 grand. A lot of the people who make those wages are raising families as well. It is called perspective. :Let me ask you this: As a "Job Creator", if you were to have your taxes lowered would you A: create more jobs? B: Maybe give a raise to your work force?

    One more thing: if you are a small business owner who is bringing home 250 grand before taxes you are doing better than 90 percent of small business owners. Again, perspective.
    Good points and fair. I actually do not support Paul. I would take him over Obama. Honestly not that impressed by the pool of candidates. I wanted Gov. Jindal to run. My point is that $250K is not rich by any means. I am actually a supporter if the Fair Tax and hate all of this class warfare stuff. I would highly recommend reading Mark Levin's books Liberty and Tyranny and Ameritopia.
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: darkslide18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,065
    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Good points and fair. I actually do not support Paul. I would take him over Obama. Honestly not that impressed by the pool of candidates. I wanted Gov. Jindal to run. My point is that $250K is not rich by any means. I am actually a supporter if the Fair Tax and hate all of this class warfare stuff. I would highly recommend reading Mark Levin's books Liberty and Tyranny and Ameritopia.
    Class warfare? You mean the class warfare being waged on middle class families? On labor? On Unions? Stagnant wages? Crappier benefits? Outsourcing? Decimation of our manufacturing base? Out of control medical insurance costs? I'm sorry but what regulations are you speaking of? We have been deregulating everything for the past 30 years or so and look where it got us.

    I'm sorry, but 250K is rich. In 4 years a person making 250k can make more than most people will make in their lifetimes. We are not going to get out of the problems we have in this country by taking away SS from our seniors. Or their medicaid. Or taking away social services from the poorest among us. It is time for the upper crust to take a hair cut.

    BTW a "fair tax" inst a fair tax. Taxing the income of our working poor is not fair. Asking the richest among us to kick in a few extra bucks is.

  46. #46
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    Class warfare? You mean the class warfare being waged on middle class families? On labor? On Unions? Stagnant wages? Crappier benefits? Outsourcing? Decimation of our manufacturing base? Out of control medical insurance costs? I'm sorry but what regulations are you speaking of? We have been deregulating everything for the past 30 years or so and look where it got us.

    I'm sorry, but 250K is rich. In 4 years a person making 250k can make more than most people will make in their lifetimes. We are not going to get out of the problems we have in this country by taking away SS from our seniors. Or their medicaid. Or taking away social services from the poorest among us. It is time for the upper crust to take a hair cut.
    Deregulation.....nope. Regulation is more like it. 10 Million words in the tax code, Dodd Frank, Fannie & Freddie, Sarbanes Oxley, Obamacare... I could go on for a while. The government has gotten way out of control. Time to cut first and then look at taxes. Plus, tax increases will not fix the entitlement programs. We are way off topic here. Enough said. Back to bikes!!!!
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3,084
    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    It is time for the upper crust to take a hair cut.
    There is no joy in seeing $40k/yr go to taxes while working 60 hrs a week. Being told I need to contribute more is sickening. It seems you view the "upper crust" like they are idly rich, sitting on piles of ill gotten wealth. So wrong.

  48. #48
    Keep Singletrack Single
    Reputation: willem3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    There is no joy in seeing $40k/yr go to taxes while working 60 hrs a week. Being told I need to contribute more is sickening. It seems you view the "upper crust" like they are idly rich, sitting on piles of ill gotten wealth. So wrong.
    The wealthy put their capital to work by investing it in companies, real estate and other investment opportunities. This in turn creates and build wealth. We need this in order to fuel the economy. Great point Vancbiker! I should stay the heck out of this discussion because I am so disgusted at the erroneous attitude about those with money. I have known many "wealthy" folks who both invest their money to drive the economy as well as "spend" their money in stores, buying cars, etc. This spending helps drive job creation and funny enough...additional tax revenue. Life is interesting... The politics of envy and class warfare is beneath us as Americans. I am done with this thread and will no longer comment. Time to get back to work! Also time to ride. Get on the fat bike for a ride in our snow!! Oh yeah!!
    Support Bend Trails
    http://bendtrails.org
    Phil's Trail Facebook Page
    https://www.facebook.com/PhilsTrail

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thuren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    789
    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    :Let me ask you this: As a "Job Creator", if you were to have your taxes lowered would you A: create more jobs? B: Maybe give a raise to your work force?
    Create more jobs, to create more product with the man hours, to make more profit, to take some load off my back. I make enough money to be happy, but I have little time to do the stuff that makes me happy. I'll take the same money, and less stress, more time/sleep, any day.
    Bend, Oregon

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thuren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    789
    IMO, there are so many gov sectors trying to govern, that they all suck at it. Cut half of them out completely, an let the remaining NEEDED half do there job, and do it well. Less crap for us voters to keep an eye on.
    Bend, Oregon

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •