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  1. #1
    newfydog
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    $600,000 paved parking lot at Phil's

    Anyone else think that is one stupid waste of our money? We need a paved parking to go mountain biking???? I'm going to ask the Forest Service and our congressmen to let dirt riders park on dirt. We can handle it, really.

    USDA Forest Service - Bend/Fort Rock Ranger District NEPA Projects - Phil's Trailhead Project

    If you wish to submit a comment, please send it to:

    Scott McBride
    1230 NE 3rd Street, A-262 , Bend, OR, 97701
    semcbride@fs.fed.us

  2. #2
    GEAUX TIGERS!!!
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    I agree. Maybe toilet facilities need to be revamped, but hey, Im good with doing it like the cougars do it.

  3. #3
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    WTF? Wouldn't want people to get mud splatters on their fancy SUVs, I guess.
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  4. #4
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    There's a couple additional things to consider:
    1. This money is partially a grant and partially Fed Hwy's money - it came out of a competitive process...

    2. As such it can only be used for this project - if the Phil's project doesn't happen, that money will get used for some other trail head or pavement somewhere else...


    There is a healthy diversity of opinion on this one. For me, personally I go back to the question, "Who benefits from this?" The answer is easy - visitors and alter-abled folks who want a close-to-town area to visit.

    Easily 75% of the rides I do out of there, I am not driving my car.

    COTA also remains ADAMANT that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will we tolerate any user fees at Phil's TH. The FS knows this. For those who see this trail head as one step closer to user fees, please be assured that COTA will strongly oppose user fees.

    Ask yourself - (as a local) - does this really affect your experience?
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  5. #5
    it means 'no problem'
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    ... and if you think $600,000 is a waste, you should check here before you get your chamois in a bunch:


    50 Examples of Government Waste


    edit: I just love #7: Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job.[7]
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  6. #6
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    Yes I think the lot there is one of the best anywhere as is. I mean it's not like it's muddy out there in Bend! Dusty... sure. I'd much rather see 600K spent on fully irrigating some of the killer trails there. Just think... a tacky Phil's trail all summer from Whoops to the lot. That's 600K well spent. I'd pay admission to ride that.

  7. #7
    Afric Pepperbird
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    When I read this in the Bulletin yesterday, and they interviewed the woman who suggested a (very) nearby campground, I said "Yeah! A campground would be neat!"

    But on second thought, I hope not. There are tons of litter problems as it stands now at the TH. The last thing we need are drunken Yahoos getting destructive and rowdy while camping here. I'm glad the FS is against it.

    (This is not an indictment on most mountain bikers. Just the bad apples you know would mess the place up)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    When I read this in the Bulletin yesterday, and they interviewed the woman who suggested a (very) nearby campground, I said "Yeah! A campground would be neat!"

    But on second thought, I hope not. There are tons of litter problems as it stands now at the TH. The last thing we need are drunken Yahoos getting destructive and rowdy while camping here. I'm glad the FS is against it.

    (This is not an indictment on most mountain bikers. Just the bad apples you know would mess the place up)
    I really like the idea of using the money to put a campground in somewhere near, but not at the trail head. I used to be a local, but now I have to camp or stay in a hotel for weekend stays in Bend. Unfortunately, there is only dispersed camping near the trail network. I feel this causes more issues with garbage and land misuse than a campground with toilet and water facilities.

    Bend is an MTB destination, a campground near the trails would be a great addition to the area. Pavement at Phil's is not necessary, at least a campground would bring in fee's for the F.S.
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  9. #9
    it means 'no problem'
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    OK, let me reiterate:
    This money is either for the proposed project or the money doesn't come here.

    All the arguments saying, "why don't they spend it on ____" are moot.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  10. #10
    Nat
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    I'm okay with it.

    Dutchman - paved/clean bathrooms
    Meissner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Swampy - paved/clean bathrooms
    Shevlin Park - paved/clean bathrooms
    Skyliner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Phil's - dirt/filthy outhouse

  11. #11
    it means 'no problem'
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    ^ + Wanoga...
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  12. #12
    Nat
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    Yes, also Wanoga - paved/clean bathrooms. Thanks.

    I've ridden in a lot of other cities and states with developed parking at busy trailheads and it did not detract from the riding experience at all. It made for a nice gathering spot before and after the ride where people could eat, drink, and socialize. They were actually pretty nice to have.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    ... and if you think $600,000 is a waste, you should check here before you get your chamois in a bunch:


    50 Examples of Government Waste


    edit: I just love #7: Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job.[7]
    Major +1 !!!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I'm okay with it.

    Dutchman - paved/clean bathrooms
    Meissner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Swampy - paved/clean bathrooms
    Shevlin Park - paved/clean bathrooms
    Skyliner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Phil's - dirt/filthy outhouse
    So true. I think it will work well. Plus....we could use anything to increase tourism in Bend. We need the $$$$ in our local economy. Phil's and our trails in general are a major draw.
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  15. #15
    newfydog
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    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    OK, let me reiterate:
    This money is either for the proposed project or the money doesn't come here.

    All the arguments saying, "why don't they spend it on ____" are moot.
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    Good points. Cannot disagree and I am very Conservative. Maybe you and I go solve this thing!!
    Last edited by willem3; 02-24-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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  17. #17
    Afric Pepperbird
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I'm okay with it.

    Dutchman - paved/clean bathrooms
    Meissner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Swampy - paved/clean bathrooms
    Shevlin Park - paved/clean bathrooms
    Skyliner - paved/clean bathrooms
    Phil's - dirt/filthy outhouse
    Hmmm, I don't know. Skyliners pit toilet is pretty nasty, too. I'd never drop a deuce there, as I'd be afraid of flies laying eggs up my you-know-what. I'd be pooping maggots for days.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    I really like the idea of using the money to put a campground in somewhere near, but not at the trail head. I used to be a local, but now I have to camp or stay in a hotel for weekend stays in Bend. Unfortunately, there is only dispersed camping near the trail network. I feel this causes more issues with garbage and land misuse than a campground with toilet and water facilities.

    Bend is an MTB destination, a campground near the trails would be a great addition to the area. Pavement at Phil's is not necessary, at least a campground would bring in fee's for the F.S.
    we camp at specific spots in central oregon where you can hit the trails from camp, so i agree that more camping close to trails is a good thing

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    That's what i was thinking. The attitude that we have to spend it or lose it is a huge problem i think. Or maybe the problem is more the fact that that sort of situation exists in the first place. Either way, spending it even if we don't really need it, because we'll lose it otherwise, seems like a bad idea. It will perpetuate spending where it isn't needed.

    There is nothing wrong with a dusty phils TH. I have no problem with a fundraiser or voluntary donations at the trailhead to raise money for improvements, but i don't think this is worthy of more general public funds.

    A camp ground may or may not be a good idea, but as Sans Soucie (is that Woody?) said, it's irrelevant to this particular batch of money.

    I posted my thought here several days ago and also emailed the gov. rep. Do Nothing a Possibility for Phils Trailhead ? Bike Around Bend

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    This. Not to mention the solutions have less capacity then the current situation? That makes no sense.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    The money originates in the Federal budget. About a 1,300 billion of that is deficit. I really don't want to borrow from the Chinese to pave Phil's. We need to stop worrying about what Bend gets, and point this out to our elected officials as another stupid expenditure, the type of waste we should reject as Americans, not condone as Bendites.

    And I'm a liberal democrat.
    I agree. The level of waste "our" government commits is beyond absurd. The money is just getting printed for all kinds of crap adding to the defecit. I'm not arguing that point. I'm simply saying "the money is already spent" for THIS proposed project. The system is broken and whether we want Phil's paved or not will have zero effect on the system. It is a symptom of a much bigger problem, a very small symptom at that.

    Something that isn't broken is the local "public comment" system. If enough people argue against (or for a different configuration) this project it won't happen. Personally I think it would provide some benefit to those who use the trail head. Big picture aside, this seems good for the local economy. That's my 2¢ not yours.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  22. #22
    newfydog
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    OK, wrote my letter to the powers that be.

    Thanks to Troys600 for the link. In it is the link for the 104 page study:

    http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558...LT2_117200.pdf

    As well as the official comment link whichis now open:
    Send your email to:

    comments-pacificnorthwest-deschutes-...rock@fs.fed.us

    The study was great to whip me into a frenzy. It is worse than I thought. Here's my comment, direct from the right wing nut job I'm turning into:

    "The proposed work on the trailhead of the Phil’s Trail complex is an absurd waste of money. In a time when we have record deficits, proposing expenditures as high as $761,500 to pave a parking area for mountain bike riders is ridiculous. The people are there to ride bikes on dirt. They can handle a dirt parking area.
    The 104 page study is a waste as well. It cites concerns that dirt might be compacted by the roadside, while suggesting cutting 64 trees and paving the ground over. It makes no mention that the entire area is next to a massive abandoned pumice pit, gravel practically devoid of any life.
    The forest service paid someone to go out there and count cars 87 days. They found, on average, 26 of them. For just $29,000 per car we can have a gold plated parking area. Just borrow the money from China.
    Any funds available for this project should be returned to the federal government. Anyone who wasted time on the evaluation needs to be reassigned to work the public actually needs."

  23. #23
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    Agree that deficit spending is not good (currently 0.43c for every $1 spent), but the majority of the money borrowed is owed to the US. Less than 8% is owed to China.

    Agree that spending 3/4 of a million $ on the Phil's TH parking lot is a big waste.

  24. #24
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    and in few years they will call....

    depave.org

    We have similar problems in France,in fact i think we call it "Corruption"
    It's a deal between the county and the company who makes roads and parking lot.

    they have no idea of what they are doing, the only thing important is to get deeper in a abyssal debt...

  25. #25
    newfydog
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    Agree that deficit spending is not good (currently 0.43c for every $1 spent), but the majority of the money borrowed is owed to the US. Less than 8% is owed to China.
    .
    Hey, don't confuse me with facts, I'm trying to be a right wing nut job. Worse than borrowing from China would be raising taxes on any of the job creators in those McMansions in Broken Top Highlands

  26. #26
    Afric Pepperbird
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    I just think of it as, "look at all the money we're 'saving' by finally ending these useless Iraq/Afghanistan wars." I'm sure just a teeny, tiny, miniscule fraction of that can pay for some much needed parking improvements.

  27. #27
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    Until the US can't sell debt, they will continue to borrow at record pace. Anyone who thinks either party will change this is foolish. The growth of the debt is independent of party affiliation. Bottom line, many want and like their entitlements.

  28. #28
    Daniel the Dog
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    I agree with Dry Side on the entitlement mentality. I don't know what the answer is? If someone does please PM Obama Oh, I could care less either way on the Phil's deal but it does seem to be foolish spending....

  29. #29
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    Uh oh. Better lock this thread...

    (I don't necessarily agree/disagree, just see where this is going and it has nothing to do with bicycles!)

  30. #30
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    No don't lock this thread, it's relevant to bicycles if for no other reason than the fact that I am going to DC for the National Bicycle Summit to argue for (among other things) continued Federal funding for bicycle transportation enhancements and trail funding such as RTP.

    I don't think I need to remind anyone here that COTA was able to build most of the Wanoga trails due to the fact that we received a large RTP (stands for Recreational Trails Program) grant in 2009. That and large donations from private citizens and corporations such as US Bank, REI, BendBroadband, Deschutes Brewery, Ruffwear, Mudslinger Events and Silvermoon Brewing. It's safe to say we have local and Federal money to thank for many of the recreational benefits we enjoy.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  31. #31
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    Curious why you think Phils TH should be exempt from the NW forest pass requirement? Not that I'm for it, but rules regarding which trail heads it's required at should be applied consistently, regardless of whether COTA approves.

    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    There's a couple additional things to consider:
    1. This money is partially a grant and partially Fed Hwy's money - it came out of a competitive process...

    2. As such it can only be used for this project - if the Phil's project doesn't happen, that money will get used for some other trail head or pavement somewhere else...


    There is a healthy diversity of opinion on this one. For me, personally I go back to the question, "Who benefits from this?" The answer is easy - visitors and alter-abled folks who want a close-to-town area to visit.

    Easily 75% of the rides I do out of there, I am not driving my car.

    COTA also remains ADAMANT that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will we tolerate any user fees at Phil's TH. The FS knows this. For those who see this trail head as one step closer to user fees, please be assured that COTA will strongly oppose user fees.

    Ask yourself - (as a local) - does this really affect your experience?

  32. #32
    newfydog
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    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    .

    I don't think I need to remind anyone here that COTA was able to build most of the Wanoga trails due to the fact that we received a large RTP grant in 2009..
    Of course, Phils, Bens's, Storm King, Mrazak were done without a cent of public money, The only input of public money was sending forest service employees out to try to prevent the trail building.

    That fact has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not we need a large expensive patch of asphalt at the Phils Trailhead. Give the money to COTA and see if they find that to be a $600,000 priority.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Of course, Phils, Bens's, Storm King, Mrazak were done without a cent of public money, The only input of public money was sending forest service employees out to try to prevent the trail building.
    Apples to Oranges my friend... Wanoga trails were almost entirely machine built and those things didn't come free. You of all people. sheesh.


    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    That fact has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not we need a large expensive patch of asphalt at the Phils Trailhead.
    I was just pointing out that Federal money came in...


    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Curious why you think Phils TH should be exempt from the NW forest pass requirement? Not that I'm for it, but rules regarding which trail heads it's required at should be applied consistently, regardless of whether COTA approves.
    Not just Phil's, all trail heads. It's because we are trail stewards who believe in freely giving back to the public that which was freely given to us.
    "“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Edward Abbey

  34. #34
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    Good to know. I'll make sure to throw in a paragraph opposing spending for machine built trails in my letter too. Hand built = better trail and cheaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by sans soucie View Post
    Apples to Oranges my friend... Wanoga trails were almost entirely machine built and those things didn't come free. You of all people. sheesh.




    I was just pointing out that Federal money came in...




    Not just Phil's, all trail heads. It's because we are trail stewards who believe in freely giving back to the public that which was freely given to us.
    I'm opposed to user fees as well. But I still find it interesting that you're supporting this spending for a TH, and then also saying don't worry, we won't let the USFS impose the user fees that other TH's in the area already have. Reminds me of pork barrel politics and earmarks.

  35. #35
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    Love this example of waste. Gitmo detainees to get brand-new $750,000 soccer field » The Right Scoop - I would much rather see $600K spent on the Phil's parking lot than $750K spent on a Soccer Field for Gitmo Detainees......
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Hey, don't confuse me with facts, I'm trying to be a right wing nut job. Worse than borrowing from China would be raising taxes on any of the job creators in those McMansions in Broken Top Highlands
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation. Remember the definition of "rich" is making $250K and above (family income). $250K minus taxes is not that much anymore. Especially considering how much things cost. Also many small business owners are impacted by this factor as well. This includes many local businesses. Raising taxes will not fix anything. You can confiscate the wealth of all millionaires in the US and it will not even make a dent in the debt. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). We also need to cut wasteful regulations (Education Dept, Energy Dept, Commerce Dept, & others) such as Sarbanes Oxley, Dodd Frank, & Obamacare in addition to dramatically cutting defense spending. It is a super big mess.....America is not so "Free" anymore....Freedom can be found more in places like Canada at this point. Nuts!
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation. Remember the definition of "rich" is making $250K and above (family income). $250K minus taxes is not that much anymore. Especially considering how much things cost. Also many small business owners are impacted by this factor as well. This includes many local businesses. Raising taxes will not fix anything. You can confiscate the wealth of all millionaires in the US and it will not even make a dent in the debt. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). We also need to cut wasteful regulations (Education Dept, Energy Dept, Commerce Dept, & others) such as Sarbanes Oxley, Dodd Frank, & Obamacare in addition to dramatically cutting defense spending. It is a super big mess.....America is not so "Free" anymore....Freedom can be found more in places like Canada at this point. Nuts!


    Yeah, cuz Trickle Down economics worked so well the last time it was forced upon us.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post


    Yeah, cuz Trickle Down economics worked so well the last time it was forced upon us.
    You know DF. What is your solution? I also love the way folks throw out statements with no facts. It is not trickle down economics or trickle up. It should be give everyone in the economy freedom and take the government off our backs. Quite simple. The Free Market works. I also have not seen the trickle up economics working too well. Food stamps, handouts, and unemployment insurance does not improve the economy. Plus....only 49% of Americans pay Federal Income Tax at all. The top 15% pay 70% of the tax bill. Enough said.

    A great example is New Zealand. Low taxes, very low debt, low regulations.... GUESS what. Successful economy and rated the #1 place in the world to open a new business.
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  39. #39
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    Getting way off track here, but this video does a good job of explaining how the federal government spends..

    THE VOTE PUMP - YouTube

    Only the naive would believe one party or the other is going to change things. Not until the debt can't be sold with there be change. Easy to say tax more or cut spending. If tomorrow the government quit borrowing and deficit spending I don't think in the near term the economy would do so well. On the other hand if the government dramatically increased taxes to cover the deficit that would not be good either. Any way you slice it, the problem is very challenging and no politician is capable of fixing it.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    Getting way off track here, but this video does a good job of explaining how the federal government spends..

    THE VOTE PUMP - YouTube

    Only the naive would believe one party or the other is going to change things. Not until the debt can't be sold with there be change. Easy to say tax more or cut spending. If tomorrow the government quit borrowing and deficit spending I don't think in the near term the economy would do so well. On the other hand if the government dramatically increased taxes to cover the deficit that would not be good either. Any way you slice it, the problem is very challenging and no politician is capable of fixing it.
    Spot on. This guy's videos are always superb.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation. Remember the definition of "rich" is making $250K and above (family income). $250K minus taxes is not that much anymore. Especially considering how much things cost. Also many small business owners are impacted by this factor as well. This includes many local businesses. Raising taxes will not fix anything. You can confiscate the wealth of all millionaires in the US and it will not even make a dent in the debt. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security). We also need to cut wasteful regulations (Education Dept, Energy Dept, Commerce Dept, & others) such as Sarbanes Oxley, Dodd Frank, & Obamacare in addition to dramatically cutting defense spending. It is a super big mess.....America is not so "Free" anymore....Freedom can be found more in places like Canada at this point. Nuts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    Haha! Ron Paul would be much better than Obummer. Who do you support DarkSlide?
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Haha! Ron Paul would be much better than Obummer. Who do you support DarkSlide?
    Haven't decided yet. Actually, Ron Paul is half right. Too bad he is so wrong on the other half.
    And as far your comment how 250 grand isn't that much? Well, the avg income in this country is around 30-40 grand. A lot of the people who make those wages are raising families as well. It is called perspective. :Let me ask you this: As a "Job Creator", if you were to have your taxes lowered would you A: create more jobs? B: Maybe give a raise to your work force?

    One more thing: if you are a small business owner who is bringing home 250 grand before taxes you are doing better than 90 percent of small business owners. Again, perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    Haven't decided yet. Actually, Ron Paul is half right. Too bad he is so wrong on the other half.
    And as far your comment how 250 grand isn't that much? Well, the avg income in this country is around 30-40 grand. A lot of the people who make those wages are raising families as well. It is called perspective. :Let me ask you this: As a "Job Creator", if you were to have your taxes lowered would you A: create more jobs? B: Maybe give a raise to your work force?

    One more thing: if you are a small business owner who is bringing home 250 grand before taxes you are doing better than 90 percent of small business owners. Again, perspective.
    Good points and fair. I actually do not support Paul. I would take him over Obama. Honestly not that impressed by the pool of candidates. I wanted Gov. Jindal to run. My point is that $250K is not rich by any means. I am actually a supporter if the Fair Tax and hate all of this class warfare stuff. I would highly recommend reading Mark Levin's books Liberty and Tyranny and Ameritopia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Good points and fair. I actually do not support Paul. I would take him over Obama. Honestly not that impressed by the pool of candidates. I wanted Gov. Jindal to run. My point is that $250K is not rich by any means. I am actually a supporter if the Fair Tax and hate all of this class warfare stuff. I would highly recommend reading Mark Levin's books Liberty and Tyranny and Ameritopia.
    Class warfare? You mean the class warfare being waged on middle class families? On labor? On Unions? Stagnant wages? Crappier benefits? Outsourcing? Decimation of our manufacturing base? Out of control medical insurance costs? I'm sorry but what regulations are you speaking of? We have been deregulating everything for the past 30 years or so and look where it got us.

    I'm sorry, but 250K is rich. In 4 years a person making 250k can make more than most people will make in their lifetimes. We are not going to get out of the problems we have in this country by taking away SS from our seniors. Or their medicaid. Or taking away social services from the poorest among us. It is time for the upper crust to take a hair cut.

    BTW a "fair tax" inst a fair tax. Taxing the income of our working poor is not fair. Asking the richest among us to kick in a few extra bucks is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    Class warfare? You mean the class warfare being waged on middle class families? On labor? On Unions? Stagnant wages? Crappier benefits? Outsourcing? Decimation of our manufacturing base? Out of control medical insurance costs? I'm sorry but what regulations are you speaking of? We have been deregulating everything for the past 30 years or so and look where it got us.

    I'm sorry, but 250K is rich. In 4 years a person making 250k can make more than most people will make in their lifetimes. We are not going to get out of the problems we have in this country by taking away SS from our seniors. Or their medicaid. Or taking away social services from the poorest among us. It is time for the upper crust to take a hair cut.
    Deregulation.....nope. Regulation is more like it. 10 Million words in the tax code, Dodd Frank, Fannie & Freddie, Sarbanes Oxley, Obamacare... I could go on for a while. The government has gotten way out of control. Time to cut first and then look at taxes. Plus, tax increases will not fix the entitlement programs. We are way off topic here. Enough said. Back to bikes!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    It is time for the upper crust to take a hair cut.
    There is no joy in seeing $40k/yr go to taxes while working 60 hrs a week. Being told I need to contribute more is sickening. It seems you view the "upper crust" like they are idly rich, sitting on piles of ill gotten wealth. So wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    There is no joy in seeing $40k/yr go to taxes while working 60 hrs a week. Being told I need to contribute more is sickening. It seems you view the "upper crust" like they are idly rich, sitting on piles of ill gotten wealth. So wrong.
    The wealthy put their capital to work by investing it in companies, real estate and other investment opportunities. This in turn creates and build wealth. We need this in order to fuel the economy. Great point Vancbiker! I should stay the heck out of this discussion because I am so disgusted at the erroneous attitude about those with money. I have known many "wealthy" folks who both invest their money to drive the economy as well as "spend" their money in stores, buying cars, etc. This spending helps drive job creation and funny enough...additional tax revenue. Life is interesting... The politics of envy and class warfare is beneath us as Americans. I am done with this thread and will no longer comment. Time to get back to work! Also time to ride. Get on the fat bike for a ride in our snow!! Oh yeah!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkslide18 View Post
    :Let me ask you this: As a "Job Creator", if you were to have your taxes lowered would you A: create more jobs? B: Maybe give a raise to your work force?
    Create more jobs, to create more product with the man hours, to make more profit, to take some load off my back. I make enough money to be happy, but I have little time to do the stuff that makes me happy. I'll take the same money, and less stress, more time/sleep, any day.
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    IMO, there are so many gov sectors trying to govern, that they all suck at it. Cut half of them out completely, an let the remaining NEEDED half do there job, and do it well. Less crap for us voters to keep an eye on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Being one of those job creators... . Raising taxes will not fix anything. The only way to cut the debt is to reform entitlements...!
    Well, Mr Job Creator, I'd say you are arithmatically challenged.

    We will need everything to cut the debt, including a fair tax rate on people like you and me. In 2005 I paid $115,000 in Federal tax. This year all my income is dividends and long term capital gains and my tax bill is absurdly low, far less than friends who work for a salary. We need to at least tax the wealthy (you, me, Warren Buffet) at the rate Ronald Reagan did if we ever want to fix the deficit.

    That and not throwing away money on parking lots

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Well, Mr Job Creator, I'd say you are arithmatically challenged.

    We will need everything to cut the debt, including a fair tax rate on people like you and me. In 2005 I paid $115,000 in Federal tax. This year all my income is dividends and long term capital gains and my tax bill is absurdly low, far less than friends who work for a salary. We need to at least tax the wealthy (you, me, Warren Buffet) at the rate Ronald Reagan did if we ever want to fix the deficit.

    That and not throwing away money on parking lots
    Thanks for sharing your personal finances. I am far from being challenged with my arithmetic. The bottom line on this stuff is to cut the spending dramatically. Government needs to be overhauled. Every president from the turn of the last century (1900) onward has spent too much. Government is dominated by Progressives and Big Government approaches. This needs to change. I say no discussions about tax increases until the cuts take place. Only then...can we truly discuss the "revenue side" in a balanced way. Additionally, increasing taxes without dramatic overhaul is just plain dumb. I challenge anyone to tell me something the government does well. Everything they touch is horribly managed and seems to need increased budget continually. Just look at the fraud in Medicare.

    Clearly this is not the right forum for this discussion. I would rather go ride at this point! Trying to argue with Progressives is pointless. Go read Mark Levin's book Liberty & Tyranny. Here is a link to Amazon to make the purchase: Amazon.com: Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto (9781416562856): Mark R. Levin: Books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Well, Mr Job Creator, I'd say you are arithmatically challenged.

    We will need everything to cut the debt, including a fair tax rate on people like you and me. In 2005 I paid $115,000 in Federal tax. This year all my income is dividends and long term capital gains and my tax bill is absurdly low, far less than friends who work for a salary. We need to at least tax the wealthy (you, me, Warren Buffet) at the rate Ronald Reagan did if we ever want to fix the deficit.

    That and not throwing away money on parking lots
    I think the point is, cut taxes, after cutting out a LOT of other Gov BS. Cut everything, just don't raise taxes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Being one of those job creators...I can tell you that raising my taxes will reduce job creation.
    Even though your taxes are levied only on your net business income after business expenses? Hiring poeple actually reduces your tax burden.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy View Post
    Even though your taxes are levied only on your net business income after business expenses? Hiring poeple actually reduces your tax burden.
    If your sales/expenses/profit stays at LEAST constant, and you are working thin already, you can't reliably write more pay checks.

    Thats the scenario of many businesses these days.

    I'm at a point where I want to get a business loan, to get a few pieces of machinery, to reduce production costs. This savings would hire a couple people. My business has zero debit except for one vehicle, and is in the black. Getting a loan, yeah right....
    Bend, Oregon

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    I think it will work well. Plus....we could use anything to increase tourism in Bend. We need the $$$$ in our local economy. .

    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    The bottom line on this stuff is to cut the spending.... dramatically. ::.

    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    I am far from being challenged with my arithmetic. ...
    ummm.....just cut the spending where willem wants and the arithmetic will all work out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thuren View Post
    If your sales/expenses/profit stays at LEAST constant, and you are working thin already, you can't reliably write more pay checks.

    Thats the scenario of many businesses these days.
    If your profit margin is thin, then income based taxes -- which are levied ON PROFITS -- are not the problem.

    Income taxes have zero effect on profitability because they are levied only AFTER the profits have been declared.
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    ummm.....just cut the spending where willem wants and the arithmetic will all work out.
    If you want to pay more taxes...You know where to send the check!

    IRS
    Fresno, CA

    Good luck to ya!
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    For sure, income tax wise.

    The tax situation plus all the other business costs, are just a domino effect. I buy a lot of steel. If the steel prices were back where they were 6 years ago, I could probably hire 3 people.

    Don't get me started on insurance...
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    Hmm

    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy View Post
    Even though your taxes are levied only on your net business income after business expenses? Hiring poeple actually reduces your tax burden.
    Sure and losing money in a business reduces tax burden. It is like when I sold advertising I told a business owner that advertising is a write off. He laughed and said, "I don't need a tax write off at this point." He said that because he wasn't making any money....

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    The horse and sparrow theory

    If you feed a horse enough oats, it will eventually **** some out for the sparrows. If you can point me to a time that this has worked to stimulate an economy, I'd like to read about it.
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    I'm a self employed small contractor, I don't make anywhere close to what's called rich but probably make more than the average. Some of my thoughts;

    Close to 50% ( currently getting bigger) of the population don't pay income taxes but are the biggest beneficiaries of entitlements, they vote on how these entitlements should be spent, and how much the other 50% (currently getting smaller) should pay in taxes. EVERYONE should pay something and have a little skin in the game, then you might think that paving Phil's is a waste of money.

    Social Security, medicare, Obama care, etc. should never of been created, if the government was so concerned with your well being they should of mandated that you save a % of your income that would be available for your retirement. Just imagine if you saved 15% ( current fica rate between you and your employer) of your income over your whole life, how much money YOU would have and would not be waiting every month for your measly SS check from the government, and if you die that money stays with your family. The whole thing is a big PONZI scheme, the new investors pay in to pay off the old ones and like all PONZI schemes they eventually collapse.

    Since the US borrows .43 of every dollar spent we would have to cut spending and or raise revenues by 43% just to stop adding to the already 16 Trillion ( currently growing by 1.2 Trillion a year) debt, to pay off the debt we would need to raise and cut more. I don't think the politicians or the public have it them to do what needs to be done, I think we're at the tipping point of our countries fate and it may already be to late. This great country should be in debt to no one.

    It's also been proven time and again that lowering taxes increases revenue to the government by increasing the amount of taxpayers. I've never gotten a job from a poor person, tax the rich more they spend and invest less which means less jobs and less taxpayers.

    Corporations don't pay taxes, you the consumer pays their tax, raise taxes on them they raise prices plain and simple.

    Insurance is the reason health care cost so much.

    Financing is why a car cost so much, and since the car costs more, it cost more to insure.

    Since insurance cost so much you need to finance your car.

    Legal system is why insurance cost so much.

    Government regulation, insurance, and legal system is why doing business cost so much; it's a vicious circle and we the consumer are getting screwed.

    What's going to happen when gas is $6-$7 a gallon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend View Post
    I'm a self employed small contractor, I don't make anywhere close to what's called rich but probably make more than the average. Some of my thoughts;

    Close to 50% ( currently getting bigger) of the population don't pay income taxes but are the biggest beneficiaries of entitlements, they vote on how these entitlements should be spent, and how much the other 50% (currently getting smaller) should pay in taxes. EVERYONE should pay something and have a little skin in the game, then you might think that paving Phil's is a waste of money.

    Social Security, medicare, Obama care, etc. should never of been created, if the government was so concerned with your well being they should of mandated that you save a % of your income that would be available for your retirement. Just imagine if you saved 15% ( current fica rate between you and your employer) of your income over your whole life, how much money YOU would have and would not be waiting every month for your measly SS check from the government, and if you die that money stays with your family. The whole thing is a big PONZI scheme, the new investors pay in to pay off the old ones and like all PONZI schemes they eventually collapse.

    Since the US borrows .43 of every dollar spent we would have to cut spending and or raise revenues by 43% just to stop adding to the already 16 Trillion ( currently growing by 1.2 Trillion a year) debt, to pay off the debt we would need to raise and cut more. I don't think the politicians or the public have it them to do what needs to be done, I think we're at the tipping point of our countries fate and it may already be to late. This great country should be in debt to no one.

    It's also been proven time and again that lowering taxes increases revenue to the government by increasing the amount of taxpayers. I've never gotten a job from a poor person, tax the rich more they spend and invest less which means less jobs and less taxpayers.

    Corporations don't pay taxes, you the consumer pays their tax, raise taxes on them they raise prices plain and simple.

    Insurance is the reason health care cost so much.

    Financing is why a car cost so much, and since the car costs more, it cost more to insure.

    Since insurance cost so much you need to finance your car.

    Legal system is why insurance cost so much.

    Government regulation, insurance, and legal system is why doing business cost so much; it's a vicious circle and we the consumer are getting screwed.

    What's going to happen when gas is $6-$7 a gallon?
    Well said. Thank you! I cannot find one fault in your post. Outstanding!!!
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    Well said!

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    Social Security was never meant as a retirement plan. It was intended as a safety net and the money paid in was supposed to be equivalent to an insurance premium. SS payments will eventually have to be means tested and the eligibility age raised. Again, until the debt can't be sold, governments will continue to borrow. I turned off by both sides of the aisle - Romney "I am going to increase military spending, cut taxes, yet balance the budget". We have already been down that road. Look for the debt to pass $20T before who ever is the next presidents term ends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    Social Security was never meant as a retirement plan. It was intended as a safety net and the money paid in was supposed to be equivalent to an insurance premium. SS payments will eventually have to be means tested and the eligibility age raised. Again, until the debt can't be sold, governments will continue to borrow. I turned off by both sides of the aisle - Romney "I am going to increase military spending, cut taxes, yet balance the budget". We have already been down that road. Look for the debt to pass $20T before who ever is the next presidents term ends.
    Most if not all government programs are created with good intentions but always grow out of control, that's why the health care issue is so scary. It's all about power and control, once the majority of the citizens are relying on the government for their basic needs in life then they will have complete control over everything in all our lives.

    The problem has been on both sides of the aisle and has gotten exponentially worse during the current administration. Cutting taxes will raise revenues, but our budget problems are not a revenue problem, they're an entitlement spending problem. There's no way we'll balance the budget without drastic cuts on entitlement spending. These entitlements and the interest on the growing debt will be the downfall of our country unless drastic sacrifices and changes are made now.

    People are like electricity; they seek the path of less resistance. Give them something for nothing and they'll chose to do nothing.

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    Um, our budget problems are both a revenue and a spending problem. Entitlements, or safety net if you prefer, do not add to the deficit...yet. Medicare will hit the inflectoin point pretty soon, but SS is decades off before it does. Even then, the pay out will be reduced to about 75% of plan and again not add to the deficit.

    The revenue side is simple. At the start of the century, we had started with a budget surplus. Then, recession and trillions in tax cuts wiped that out and then some. Then add two wars, prescription drug benefit without cost controls, unchecked growth in military and domestic spending, then another recession and stimulus. It is easy to see how we've gone from about 5 trillion in debt and dropping to over 16 trillion in 12 short years.

    It can't be solved by cutting alone, nor can it be solved by taxing alone. But nothing will be solved without demand increasing. The more the average income stagnates while the cost of insurance, energy, and housing rise exponentially, less demand in a macroeconomic sense will be generated.
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    Most do have "skin in the game"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend View Post
    Close to 50% ( currently getting bigger) of the population don't pay income taxes but are the biggest beneficiaries of entitlements, they vote on how these entitlements should be spent, and how much the other 50% (currently getting smaller) should pay in taxes. EVERYONE should pay something and have a little skin in the game, then you might think that paving Phil's is a waste of money.
    Some data you might find interesting:

    Misconceptions and Realities About Who Pays Taxes — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities


    Also:

    "In fact, the number of filers paying no federal income tax has hovered between 40 and 50 percent for the past several years.
    In 2010, 45 percent of households paid no federal income tax, according to the Tax Policy Center. In 2009, it was about 47 percent. In 2008, 49 percent were exempt from federal income tax.
    All in all, according to the Tax Policy Center, there will be 76 million nonpaying “tax units” in 2011. The Center defines a tax unit as “an individual, or a married couple who file a tax
    return jointly, along with all dependents of that individual or married couple.”

    And not all of those tax units represent the working class.

    Nine million nonpayers, or 12.8 percent of the total, are in the middle income quintile. Another 1.9 million -- 2.6 percent of the total -- are in the second-highest quintile, and some 443,000, or 0.6 percent of the total, are in the top quintile.

    The Tax Policy Center breaks down that last number a bit further: There are 78,000 non-paying units in the top 95th to 99th income percentile, 24,000 in the top 1 percentile, and 3,000 in the top tenth of a percentile.

    This group has a nickname, too: they're the HINTs, for high income, no taxes.

    These might be people who get their income from tax-exempt bonds or overseas sources, as CNN reported last year."
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    I did not read through everything Free-agent, but good read from what I saw. Just as left wing biased as some of the conservative data is biased.

    The only thing I will say, is that lets say the study has some valid points, and assume that some rich pay little to no income tax. Those rich are still most likely paying TONS in sales tax(Except Oregon ), services, and giving hundreds of jobs, while not sucking FROM the system, like many milking entitlements.

    EDITED: per below hehe
    Last edited by thuren; 03-02-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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    Unless they live in Oregon



    Lets keep in mind that the "safety net" system set up long ago that we all pay into today mostly benefits the largest group living in poverty in America today....children.
    I teach in a school that is 75%+ free and reduced lunch (entitlement) and 80%+ first generation college students. During their Junior and Senior years they take courses for dual credit, and we cover the college tuition costs (entitlement) for many who need the support. For this reason alone, we have a much higher percentage of low SES students graduating and going to college than other schools. Had we not provided that "entitlement," we wouldn't have so many students breaking the cycle of poverty in their families. Entitlement can have longer term economic benefits for society as well, which is rarely brought up in these discussions (give people support now and we won't have to pay to imprison them for much more money later). Those students will now more than likely gain decent employment and never have to use the "safety net," and neither will their children and grandchildren and so on.
    Gotta run to class.
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    Sorry about the long post. That was meant to be one line!!! Darn iPad!!
    Last edited by willem3; 03-02-2012 at 09:42 PM. Reason: To long
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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend View Post
    government... worse ...
    Americans... Fathers... Declaration... wealth ...
    The purpose of government in the United States of America, ... leviathan... State... empower ... liberty, ... altruistically... “entitlement” ....* If Obama...... Obama out.*
    Is this thread even still open?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Muesl View Post
    Is this thread even still open?
    Serves me right for trying to copy and paste on my iPad. should have been one line!!! Sorry
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  74. #74
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    I saw a bumper sticker on a Volvo the other day that said..."End Socialism".
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    I saw a bumper sticker on a Volvo the other day that said..."End Socialism".
    That is funny!! Usually Volvo's have Obama 2012 stickers on them... Times are changing....
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  76. #76
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    Willem's rant, so over the top that even he was embarassed and had to edit it out, finished with this gem:

    " What is an American?* What is the American society?* What is the American culture?* It’s completely different; it’s the opposite of what you hear Obama saying day in and day out"

    I think America is defined by the voters, not by some manifesto, They voted for Obama. If the election were held today, they would again select him over that ranting gang of ideologues we've been subjected to in the Republican debates. If he ever becomes the tyrant the right fears he is, we the people will replace him. I like that system, and respect the decisions derived from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    Willem's rant, so over the top that even he was embarassed and had to edit it out, finished with this gem:

    " What is an American?* What is the American society?* What is the American culture?* It’s completely different; it’s the opposite of what you hear Obama saying day in and day out"

    I think America is defined by the voters, not by some manifesto, They voted for Obama. If the election were held today, they would again select him over that ranting gang of ideologues we've been subjected to in the Republican debates. If he ever becomes the tyrant the right fears he is, we the people will replace him. I like that system, and respect the decisions derived from it.
    It was not my rant dude. It was supposed to be a quote from Mark Levin and intended to only be one line. Not embarrased at all by Levin. Still stand behind the quote above 100%. Obama ran as a Centrist and continues to run his Presidency as a campaign. He is much further Left than when he ran. Therefore, a typical politician. Nothing special. Just someone folks were dumb enough to actually believe.

    America is supposed to run based on our Constitution. That is not a manifesto.
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    I could argue that Obama is farther right then when he ran (as a constitutional lawyer). He has continued and even enhanced many of the Bush admins assault on the 4th amendment..

    10 Reasons the US is No Longer the Land of the Free

    Obama is not great, but the Romney answer of dramatically increasing military spending, cutting taxes, and claiming he will balance the budget is no better. Romney won't stop the assault on the 4th amendment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    I could argue that Obama is farther right then when he ran (as a constitutional lawyer). He has continued and even enhanced many of the Bush admins assault on the 4th amendment..

    10 Reasons the US is No Longer the Land of the Free

    Obama is not great, but the Romney answer of dramatically increasing military spending, cutting taxes, and claiming he will balance the budget is no better. Romney won't stop the assault on the 4th amendment.
    Agree 100% on Romney and military spending. Obama just continued the Bush war on terror. Very true. Great points. My problem with Obama is more on the Domestic issues. I think we should get out of those wars.
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    Romney will have us continue the ME occupation as he joins with Israel to attack Iran. Unfortunately Obama probably will do the same after the election. Regardless of who is president: The debt will continue to rise at record pace, the US will continue to occupy the ME, and the 4th amendment will continue to be under attack. Interesting thread for a Oregon MTB forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dry Side View Post
    Romney will have us continue the ME occupation as he joins with Israel to attack Iran. Unfortunately Obama probably will do the same after the election. Regardless of who is president: The debt will continue to rise at record pace, the US will continue to occupy the ME, and the 4th amendment will continue to be under attack. Interesting thread for a Oregon MTB forum.
    Time to get back to bikes!!! Done with this. I want to relax and enjoy the weekend. Adios to this thread for me.
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by nh4cl View Post
    Um, our budget problems are both a revenue and a spending problem. Entitlements, or safety net if you prefer, do not add to the deficit...yet. Medicare will hit the inflectoin point pretty soon, but SS is decades off before it does. Even then, the pay out will be reduced to about 75% of plan and again not add to the deficit.

    The revenue side is simple. At the start of the century, we had started with a budget surplus. Then, recession and trillions in tax cuts wiped that out and then some. Then add two wars, prescription drug benefit without cost controls, unchecked growth in military and domestic spending, then another recession and stimulus. It is easy to see how we've gone from about 5 trillion in debt and dropping to over 16 trillion in 12 short years.

    It can't be solved by cutting alone, nor can it be solved by taxing alone. But nothing will be solved without demand increasing. The more the average income stagnates while the cost of insurance, energy, and housing rise exponentially, less demand in a macroeconomic sense will be generated.


    Entitlements not adding to the debt?
    0,000 paved parking lot at Phil's-spendingpiechart.jpg

    Mandatory spending (entitlements) and interest on the debt is about 62%. You could say that we don't borrow money on entitlement spending we just borrow it for everything else, but that's like saying someone on food stamps that buys beer and cigarettes with cash isn't spending their food stamp money on beer and cigarettes.

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    Federal government spending only goes one direction. We're almost borrowing what the total budget was 10-12 years ago, it's insane!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff in bend View Post
    mandatory spending (entitlements) and interest on the debt is about 62%. You could say that we don't borrow money on entitlement spending we just borrow it for everything else, but that's like saying someone on food stamps that buys beer and cigarettes with cash isn't spending their food stamp money on beer and cigarettes.
    awesome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
    I think America is defined by the voters, not by some manifesto, They voted for Obama. If the election were held today, they would again select him over that ranting gang of ideologues we've been subjected to in the Republican debates. If he ever becomes the tyrant the right fears he is, we the people will replace him. I like that system, and respect the decisions derived from it.
    I agree. I also feel that the majority, left or right, know deep down, VERY few of the promises he was elected on, and even as president, have not come close to being reality. Do what you say you are going to do, or, GTFO.
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    This thread is pathetic. I have posted some OT rants before, but this is ridiculous. The last "president" is responsible for far more damage than anything that has occurred so far. I suppose you folks would prefer that moron from Alaska? Maybe that crazy,wife ditching,poster child for PTSD with the beer heiress "new" wife would have suited your "needs". Winter does not bring out the best on this forum.BTW... the system is beyond repair. It does not matter who you elect.Where is Yelloman now? I would vote for Yelloman!
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    Did someone say something about Chinese hookers? God bless 'em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CmbtDvr185 View Post
    Did someone say something about Chinese hookers? God bless 'em.
    I was more thinking about Chinese Downhill to settle this dispute!!!

    Chineese Downhill from HOTDOG the Movie - YouTube
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    ...
    Last edited by OldHouseMan; 03-08-2012 at 05:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppa#1 View Post
    The last "president" is responsible for far more damage than anything that has occurred so far.
    Thats funny. "So far" might be the key note there. Don't we have Gov health care coming? The Gov does things so clean, and efficient, I can't WAIT to see the mess that creates. Don't we have an even more MASSIVE debt, all created while this president is in office? Just be sure to beat that same drum when someone else is in trying to clean up the mess, hopefully with tactics that have actually worked, through out our history.

    Don't get me wrong, I actually think that the left leaning ideas of saving the world, and making it so everyone and every thing has it nice and cushy, is awesome. Who wouldn't think that is not the best option, but unfortunately, it just can not work that way.
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  90. #90
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    Look at the data.

    Bush doubled the debt while inheriting a robust economy. Obama has increased the debt by 50%, but also inherited the worst economic situation since the GD. Many argue the increased debt was necessary to avoid an all-out depression.

    With regards to debt-Reagan has been the worst, Clinton has been the best.

    National Debt by Presidential Term - per Capita and as Percentage of GDP
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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    Bush doubled the debt while inheriting a robust economy. Obama has increased the debt by 50%, but also inherited the worst economic situation since the GD. Many argue the increased debt was necessary to avoid an all-out depression.

    With regards to debt-Reagan has been the worst, Clinton has been the best.

    National Debt by Presidential Term - per Capita and as Percentage of GDP
    I guess thats one way to look at it. I think we all know the president can ask, but will not get, unless Congress and the Senate sign off. Hmmmmmm.... Then add in what a united Congress an Senate can pull off without the pres. 1990 on is pretty interesting..

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  92. #92
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    Not really

    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    Bush doubled the debt while inheriting a robust economy. Obama has increased the debt by 50%, but also inherited the worst economic situation since the GD. Many argue the increased debt was necessary to avoid an all-out depression.

    With regards to debt-Reagan has been the worst, Clinton has been the best.

    National Debt by Presidential Term - per Capita and as Percentage of GDP
    The fly in the ointment with tagging economic success with the office of the President is a dynamic larger then the office drive the economy. Clinton was fortunate to be President when the internet economy was going crazy. He had zero to do with that! He just smiled and rode the wave...but he did get the balance budgeted as the coffers of government were flush.

    Bush also had 911 and its terrible impact on our economy. The economy Bush inherited was full of holes. People were using their houses like ATM machines. It looked good but it was built on debt. It eventually became evident in time that is crap. Built on nothing substantial. It had to bust.

    Obama believes in European style government. He believes government can create solutions for just about everything. If you believe in his view of American I'm sure you love him. You can't forget the House and Congress are also in this boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by free-agent View Post
    Many argue the increased debt was necessary to avoid an all-out depression.
    Including the vast majority of economists.

    Quote Originally Posted by thuren View Post
    Don't we have Gov health care coming?
    As if! Uh, no we do NOT have government health care coming. I wish we did.

    Some of us fought really hard for a single payer system (which would have drastically reduced many of the hidden costs embedded in our economic system, and made us much more competitive globally), but even that so-called "socialist" Obama was afraid to ask for it. Not only did we not get single payer, but we didn't even get the so-called "Public Option". If it's coming, please tell me how to sign up!

    So when right wingers go around calling Obama "socialist", the rest of us just scratch our heads and go "wha...?" Other than partial takeovers of the auto and financial industries (both of which are well on their way back to full private ownership, and both of which were continuations of Bush policies), I'm not even aware of any initiatives he has advanced that would constitute socialism.

    The Gov does things so clean, and efficient, I can't WAIT to see the mess that creates.
    I've spent a few years in the public sector, and over 2 decades working in private industry. In my experience private industry is often just as inefficient and wasteful as government, if not more so. The big difference is when a private company effs up a $10 million -- or even a $100 million -- project, the public doesn't hear about it. But believe me, I've seen waste, sloth and inefficiency in the private sector that would make the stereotypical DMV worker blush.
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    "Including the vast majority of economists."

    I love it when Liberals use vague references to the "Vast Majority" of Economists or Scientists, etc. Name them and show me a statistic that shows a vast majority. You can't. I know plenty of economists who would disagree.


    "As if! Uh, no we do NOT have government health care coming. I wish we did."

    Actually, Obamacare is set-up to force the healthcare system to continue to fail and move toward Government run healthcare. It does absolutely zero to reduce costs, lawsuits, and waste. From what I have seen, it includes all types of surprises such as $111 Billion that was unknown. It also provides way to much power to HHS (Health & Human Services Department). As Nancy Pelosi said, "We need to pass the bill to see what is in it.".

    I spent a large portion of my life in a country with nationalized or government controlled healthcare. I can tell you that it sucks. Waiting lists do exist. People of certain ages are excluded from different types of treatment. If your Cancer is a Stage 4 or greater, you are denied treatment. (Death Panel anyone....) You can take your Public Option and shove it in my opinion. Guess what... My parents who still live in that nameless country, come to the USA for their healthcare. Interesting huh....Careful what you wish for!



    "I've spent a few years in the public sector, and over 2 decades working in private industry. In my experience private industry is often just as inefficient and wasteful as government, if not more so. The big difference is when a private company effs up a $10 million -- or even a $100 million -- project, the public doesn't hear about it. But believe me, I've seen waste, sloth and inefficiency in the private sector that would make the stereotypical DMV worker blush."

    Complete progressive rubbish in my opinion. I have worked in the Private Sector for my entire career. Private or Publicly owned companies (Fortune 500's & others) are held to a very high standard. Those who work there do not have tenure, lucrative retirement plans, or other benefits that those in the public sector do. Therefore, we are held accountable for every action we take and could be fired for poor performance or not meeting our goals. This is not something I see enough of in the Public Sector. Just look at the PERS problem here in Oregon. Just ridiculous. I can tell you that my personal experience in dealing with Government Agencies makes it clear that it is poorly run. This included the horrible Post Office, DMV, IRS, Passport Services, TSA, etc. I could go on.

    Anyhow. Clearly you are a die hard liberal and there is no talking sense into you. You will probably reply with the typical progressive arguments. I have no illusions about being able to change any Liberal over to our side. Just wanted to vent. I actually had no intention of commenting on this thread anymore. But it does feel good to get out my 2 cents worth. See you on the trail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy View Post
    I've spent a few years in the public sector, and over 2 decades working in private industry. In my experience private industry is often just as inefficient and wasteful as government, if not more so. The big difference is when a private company effs up a $10 million -- or even a $100 million -- project, the public doesn't hear about it. But believe me, I've seen waste, sloth and inefficiency in the private sector that would make the stereotypical DMV worker blush.
    Thats not what I have experienced in my 20 years of business. One of those decades was managing one of our family chain autopart stores. We always fought hard to get city business, as they NEVER badgered or shopped around prices, just said, "I don't care what it costs, send it to me". We were always shocked that tax money was just thrown around like that. One drop in the massive bucket.
    Bend, Oregon

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    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Clearly you are a die hard liberal and there is no talking sense into you. You will probably reply with the typical progressive arguments.
    Funny, a few days ago, as I heard you repeating typical right-wing talking points, I almost wrote the exact same thing about you (with the sides reversed, of course). But then I decided to be more respectful, and I have more valuable things to do with my time than spending an hour refuting your points, so I kept it to myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by willem3 View Post
    Private or Publicly owned companies (Fortune 500's & others) are held to a very high standard. ... Therefore, we are held accountable for every action we take and could be fired for poor performance or not meeting our goals.
    Yeah, right! Good one! I've worked at numerous companies where people swore Scott Adams must work there, and you think Dilbert is only about government agencies!

    Since you're going to attack me personally for merely challenging a couple of your beliefs, I guess I have to say it's pretty obvious that:
    - You're convinced that Obamacare is socialism, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise by pointing out that it perpetuates the same completely-effed-up private system that we suffer under today.
    - You're convinced that all single payer healthcare systems have worse overall outcomes than our s***hole system, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced that everything government touches turns to crap, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced that the economy is slow due to lack of investment capital rather than lack of demand, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced either that the economy was teetering on the edge of a deflationary precipice (ignoring the fact that we had an unprecedented 3 straight months of deflation in late 2008), or that inflation is worse than deflation. Either way, I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced that a rational business owner will invest less in their business because of an anticipated personal expense (like higher taxes or a big boat payment), and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    Last edited by GlowBoy; 03-05-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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    That's the problem there is so much polarization. It doesn't really matter because eventually the debt will not be sellable. Already seeing it with cities going bankrupt. Having to cut services because the debt of the under funded or unfunded entitlements are taking their toll. There is no free lunch and no party or politician will be able to fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy View Post
    Funny, a few days ago, as I heard you repeating the same (IMO misguided or outright wrong) right-wing talking points I hear daily, I almost wrote the exact same thing about you (with the sides reversed, of course). But then I decided to be more respectful, and I have more valuable things to do with my time than spending an hour refuting your points, so I kept it to myself.

    Yeah, right! Good one! I've worked at numerous companies where people swore Scott Adams must work there, and you think Dilbert is only about government agencies!

    It's pretty obvious that:
    - You're convinced that Obamacare is socialism, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise by pointing out that it perpetuates the same completely-effed-up private system that we suffer under today.
    - You're convinced that all single payer healthcare systems have worse overall outcomes than our s***hole system, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced that everything government touches turns to crap, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced that the economy is slow due to lack of investment capital rather than lack of demand, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    - You're convinced that a rational business owner will invest less in their business because of an anticipated personal expense (like higher taxes or a big boat payment), and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
    Clearly, I am a rude bastard. Just calling them as I see them. It may be a little New York style on my part. After all, I am from the Netherlands and we are known for being direct. I am a Free Market Constitutional Conservative and therefore will not be convinced by progressive talking points.

    That being said, it is nice to know that we agree on being stubborn! Nothing wrong with sticking to your guns. Now, we can move on, ride bikes, and drink beer. Because in the end, we are two tiny individuals with very little true impact on any of this except for our vote. All the best!!
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    Since it's been brought up, and to get even further away from the original thread... Socialized medicine seems to be quite popular among the MTBR.com crowd, as evidenced by this very recent thread:

    Question for those who live in a country with socialized medicine?

    I, for one, would not mind it a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    Since it's been brought up, and to get even further away from the original thread... Socialized medicine seems to be quite popular among the MTBR.com crowd, as evidenced by this very recent thread:

    Question for those who live in a country with socialized medicine?

    I, for one, would not mind it a bit.
    Then move!!! Great trails in other countries!! It sounds pretty, but in reality as DrySide said in his post, it is unsustainable financially. In practice socialized medicine is horrible. Speaking from experience.....
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