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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    We can amend the right accordingly.



    I doubt it, the parties in this country are too polarized, no one willing to meet in the middle.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    The Bill of Rights was introduced by James Madison who is called "The father of the Constitution" in the 1st Congress in 1789.

    Yes, it can be repealed by another amendment like the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment. Good luck doing it because amending the Constitution is not an easy procedure as it was intended by the founders to be an exhaustive procedure.

    But our government won't do it - because it won't pass 3/4 of the state legislatures let alone the House or maybe even the Senate and the huge firestorm it would create so they are sidestepping it via other laws and executive measures.
    Just had a thought - the 18th amendment started Prohibition which basically was an alcohol ban....didn't work out too well as it gave rise to the gangster mobs and violence as folks had to go to the black market to get booze.... eventually the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment because they realized the booze ban didn't work.

    Now, if they try to repeal the 2nd....what is going to happen? Hmmm???
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Just had a thought - the 18th amendment started Prohibition which basically was an alcohol ban....didn't work out too well as it gave rise to the gangster mobs and violence as folks had to go to the black market to get booze.... eventually the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment because they realized the booze ban didn't work.

    Now, if they try to repeal the 2nd....what is going to happen? Hmmm???
    Less mass killings.

    More reasonable society.

    Less twisted laws.

  4. #154
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    Come on does anyone, other than tinfoil hat tea party freaks, seriously believe we'll repeal the 2nd amendment? Guns are in our blood as Americans, but perhaps some commonsense rules make sense. Right now 40 percent of gun sales don't have a background check ... not sure we need 30 round mags either.

  5. #155
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    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    If they ban anything (won't be handguns), all existing guns would be grandfathered in. This slippery slope augment just doesn't fly. The government regulates lots of things including guns right now.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    What you failed to mention is thet the people that die from Tobacco and Alcohol and drugs did it to themselves, they are not innocent people getting gunned down at schools and all the rest of your examples are basically accidents barring road deaths..
    These sort of comparisons are ridiculous..
    50,000 died from second hand smoke.

    Your reply 'mate'?

    I'd like to see every smoker prosecuted for murder at a 1/50,000 rate of penalty.

    Same for persons that consume alcohol, drive, and kill an innocent bystander.

    Execution would be my choice. By firearm would make me smile, but any method of taking their life would be a fine exchange for taking someone else's life.

    Any reply 'mate'?

    mudhen
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    Yeah that is fer sure.

    In the next ten years the US could legalize pot, reduce organized crime to a small fraction of what it is today, and make a nickel.

    With the nickel they could repeal the 2nd and buy up the guns and stockpile them with the National Guards...

    Geez and reduce the military budget...

    And fix the deficit.

    And fix Mexico's organized crime problems....

    Geez and even get all the out of work red necks jobs hand picking organically grown pot.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Yeah that is fer sure.

    In the next ten years the US could legalize pot, reduce organized crime to a small fraction of what it is today, and make a nickel.

    With the nickel they could repeal the 2nd and buy up the guns and stockpile them with the National Guards...

    Geez and reduce the military budget...

    And fix the deficit.

    And fix Mexico's organized crime problems....

    Geez and even get all the out of work red necks jobs hand picking organically grown pot.
    Heheheh! Too right!!!

    I think everyone needs to go read the book I am reading right now: "Beyond Religion" by the Dalai Llama... Vertigo started to scratch the surface by saying that God has the answers... sorry mate, but that may just be a little misguided.
    It's all Here. Now.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Yeah that is fer sure.

    In the next ten years the US could legalize pot, reduce organized crime to a small fraction of what it is today, and make a nickel.

    With the nickel they could repeal the 2nd and buy up the guns and stockpile them with the National Guards...

    Geez and reduce the military budget...

    And fix the deficit.

    And fix Mexico's organized crime problems....

    Geez and even get all the out of work red necks jobs hand picking organically grown pot.
    Do you understand it takes 3/4 of state legislatures (about 38 states) to ratify an amendment and that is after it passes Congress? Do you think 38 states are going to go along with that? I would have a very hard time thinking so - I would doubt even California would vote for it let alone the Bible belt states.

    As far as Mexico's drug cartel violence - not all their guns came from the US - they get firearms from other nations...AK47's..etc.... In fact, we have learned recently that Bush and Obama sent weapons to Mexico that ended up in the hands of the drug cartels - aka Fast and Furious. No amount of 2nd amendment repeal would have stopped that.

    Our guns are not military grade guns - the Bushmaster .223 the shooter used was not an M4 or an M16. It was a semi-automatic only copy of an M4 - the actual military grade M4 and M16 are select fire (true assault rifles) weapons that can fire semi-auto or fully auto or burst. A bushmaster .223 can only fire semi-auto and is no functionally different than a hunting rifle.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    If they ban anything (won't be handguns), all existing guns would be grandfathered in. This slippery slope augment just doesn't fly. The government regulates lots of things including guns right now.
    You speak directly to my point, "all existing guns would be grandfathered in", so what will be accomplished, other than to appease the constituents of the leftwing lawmakers? You'll need to offer up far more than that to convience me that a ban of any sort will reduce gun violence. Violence of any kind is a "behavioral issue" no mater how is perpetrated, and no amount of regulation will remedy a genetic defect.
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    A bushmaster .223 can only fire semi-auto and is no functionally different than a hunting rifle.
    I guess if you just generalize it down to the basic fact that it's a rifle that fires a bullet, you're right. There is no functional difference.

    Functionally, how many rounds do you need when hunting? You're not taking down 20-30 deer as quickly as you can pull the trigger. You're firing one, maybe 2 rounds if you're lucky, at a single target. Beyond that, the animal is more than likely spooked and running, and you'll need to reload and start the stalking/waiting game all over again.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    I guess if you just generalize it down to the basic fact that it's a rifle that fires a bullet, you're right. There is no functional difference.

    Functionally, how many rounds do you need when hunting? You're not taking down 20-30 deer as quickly as you can pull the trigger. You're firing one, maybe 2 rounds if you're lucky, at a single target. Beyond that, the animal is more than likely spooked and running, and you'll need to reload and start the stalking/waiting game all over again.
    you are exactly right. why make a bushmaster 223 look exactly like a colt m4?? to make joe average "feel" he's rocking a military grade weapon? the m4 design is purpose built for military work, which strictly speaking is killing people.

    who needs one at home and how can anyone claim it's just a hunting rifle? i've used hunting rifles, they don't take 30 round clips or look like a military gun. if i wanted to buy a gun to "defend" my family, it'd be a pump action shotgun. i have no illusion that my markmanship skills go up in an adrenaline filled situation such as protecting my family. i'd want something that took my crummy aim under pressure into account. the bonus being i could hunt duck and geese with it.

    companies make bushmasters to play into peoples joy of feeling like they are playing with military grade equipment, it suits no hunting purpose. no one is talking outright bans like the nra spouts off about to scare people that their rights are being violated. i'm sure the founding fathers weren't intending that citizens would be owning automatic handguns and 30 round clip guns. plus the fact a lot of the "non-automatic" guns can be converted to full auto after purchase.

    lol, here on mtbr we all claim every time a new thing/fad comes up, that it's just marketing driven like when 29ers and then 650b came out, but when it's the gun industry pushing gun sales we all buy the kool aid and hop on no questions asked. i think the gun industry is a little more profitable than the bike industry. why don't we question their motives a little more?

    here's a quote from a recent article showing semi auto and high capacity guns are hot sellers and stating that the us gun industry is a 3.5 billion dollar industry. i'm sure they're looking out for your 2nd amendment rights, not their bottom line

    Gun sales have thrived throughout the weak economy and gun company stock prices have soared.
    But after the massacre at Sandy Hook in Connecticut, the outlook for the firearms industry is less certain, with momentum building for restrictions on semiautomatic rifles and high capacity magazines.
    "It would remove one of the hottest-selling products from the market place," said Rommel Dionisio, an analyst for Wedbush Securities who covers Smith & Wesson.
    Dionisio estimates the U.S. gun industry has as much as $3.5 billion in annual sales.
    Last edited by qbert2000; 12-18-2012 at 12:38 PM.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    You speak directly to my point, "all existing guns would be grandfathered in", so what will be accomplished, other than to appease the constituents of the leftwing lawmakers? You'll need to offer up far more than that to convience me that a ban of any sort will reduce gun violence. Violence of any kind is a "behavioral issue" no mater how is perpetrated, and no amount of regulation will remedy a genetic defect.
    Most of these shooters are out buying these guys in the weeks or months before they act, so it would stop new availability. The people that have them now are unlikely to ever commit a crime. Of course, this guy got them from his mom, so this approach would've have helped anyway. California has a ban on assault riffles and high capacity clips and we do have less mass shootings now.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    I guess if you just generalize it down to the basic fact that it's a rifle that fires a bullet, you're right. There is no functional difference.

    Functionally, how many rounds do you need when hunting? You're not taking down 20-30 deer as quickly as you can pull the trigger. You're firing one, maybe 2 rounds if you're lucky, at a single target. Beyond that, the animal is more than likely spooked and running, and you'll need to reload and start the stalking/waiting game all over again.
    I fully understand your point that do you need a 30 round clip to hunt? No. If you did, you probably need to work on your accuracy.

    My main point with the accuracy argument was a typical hunting rifle can accomodate 5 - 10 rounds and alot of them are detachable magazines.. It takes about 20 seconds to change mags and the mags are small enough to carry several of them in a coat pocket.

    So, with a semi-automatic AR15 with a 30 round magazine or a semi-automatic Remington 742 with only a 5 round detachable clip that can be changed very quickly and you could carry 6 clips in a coat pocket easily, how much damage/carnage can a nuthead do if he went into a school of unarmed victims?

    In either scenario, you are going to get alot of carnage because no one is going to fight back and if you did - you have about 20 seconds to tackle the shooter who can also buttstroke you with the rifle as well as shoot you with it.

    So basically, banning rifles like AR15's just because they look military - The military doesn't use AR15's, they use M4s and M16s as well as SWAT - isn't going to reduce carnage as said carnage can be equally achieved by traditional rifles because the targets will always in essense be unarmed.
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  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Like this...No school shootings in Israel, because the Israelis actually care about their children, and don't believe it's ok to sacrifice a few dozen to use them as pawns to further a globalist political agenda... unlike our domestic Democrats y'all voted for recently...

    Because Israelis actually take Home Land Security seriously, and not as a comedy skit like our own government does, and as a result they trust their citizens with guns and with their most precious natural resource...their children.

    Israeli Elementary School Teacher on an outing with her class...
    Hard to compare a small homogenized and very well educated country to a diverse country where half the people don't believe in science, evolution, or global warming.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Like this...No school shootings in Israel, because the Israelis actually care about their children, and don't believe it's ok to sacrifice a few dozen to use them as pawns to further a globalist political agenda... unlike our domestic Democrats y'all voted for recently...

    Because Israelis actually take Home Land Security seriously, and not as a comedy skit like our own government does, and as a result they trust their citizens with guns and with their most precious natural resource...their children.

    Israeli Elementary School Teacher on an outing with her class...
    well, in israel all citizens serve military service. so that teacher carrying that gun didn't take a two week course or an extra day course like some have suggested. she would have served 2 years in the military eminently qualifying her to carry that gun. not just having a back ground check

    Regular service
    Main article: Conscription in Israel



    National military service is mandatory for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18, although Arab (but not Druze) citizens are exempted if they so please, and other exceptions may be made on religious, physical or psychological grounds (see Profile 21). The Tal law, which exempts ultra-orthodox Jews from service, has been the subject of several court cases as well as considerable legislative controversy.
    Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two. The IDF women who volunteer for several combat positions often serve for three years, due to the longer period of training. Women in other positions, such as programmers, who also require lengthy training time, may also serve three years. Women in most combat positions are also required to serve in the reserve for several years after they leave regular service.
    Some distinguished recruits are selected to be trained in order to eventually become members of special forces units. Every brigade in the IDF has its own special force branch.
    Career soldiers are paid on average NIS 23,000 a month, fifty times the NIS 460 paid to conscripts.[19]

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    ...and don't believe it's ok to sacrifice a few dozen to use them as pawns to further a globalist political agenda... unlike our domestic Democrats y'all voted for recently...
    Because Republicans aren't willing to sacrifice US (and foreign, for that matter) citizens for globalist agendas of their own? What was Iraq 2003?

    Sorry... veering off topic.
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  19. #169
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    just a thought:

    Why don't Conservative Christian Republicans view controlling/banning the sale of assault weapons through the same moral microscope as they do birth control?
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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    It doesn't require a ban. It requires a shift in thinking of the average American and a buy back scheme. Weapons bought back are destroyed and taken out of the loop. When Mum and Dad America stop thinking their freedom is being infringed by losing the right to have a wall-mounted rocket launcher long enough to realise that weapons in your home increase your personal as well as public risk, you may be surprised how many make the right decision and walk away from their weapons.

    This is not an argument about the rights of Americans, it is about the reality that guns have no place in the burbs and assault weapons have no place anywhere in society.

    Von Goethe had a couple of ideas for you - on the subject of your freedom
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free"
    and perhaps he was talking about this very issue
    "Nothing is worse than active ignorance"

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    I have more faith in US teachers than that, but in the spirit of compromise, then just give the other 50% concealed carry permits...it only takes one good man with a gun to stop evil in it's tracks.

    Democrats, on the other hand, don't want to confront evil, they want to limit a US citizens response to a homicidal maniac to cowering in a toilet and praying that the maniac runs out of bullets while killing someone else's children before he starts killing yours.

    They feel that 10 of your children is an acceptable death toll, and that is why they want to limit magazines to 10-rounds.

    Diane Feinstein has a Concealed Carry Permit but wants to limit your right to defend yourself...she's got hers and now it's time to start cracking down on everyone else...
    Feinstein is a hypocrite, we all know that - she's not the first elected to be one either.

    So, I guess republicans feel 20 kids here or there is an fair price to maintain their NRA ratings? I know, we need to arm all teachers and students so they can have gun battles with psychos in the halls of our schools. Sounds like a nice learning environment.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    Because Republicans aren't willing to sacrifice US (and foreign, for that matter) citizens for globalist agendas of their own? What was Iraq 2003?

    Sorry... veering off topic.
    He has a point here....Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats. In my humble opinion, both parties are just as equally worthless. Why we as Americans need to think past the slogans and smiles and think past what the media tells us.
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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Ok..are you a teacher..?

    My math teacher, history, pe, music, drama, english, teachers were all vets... one could pass a law just allowing them to defend our children.

    You do realize that these mass murder incidents have all occurred in designated Gun-Free Zones ...coincidence...I don't think so.

    I am all for extensive training as a requirement. No one should own a gun without training in it's safe use.

    That would be a sensible Gun Control Law, but right now it is a State issue.
    These mass murders also seem to happen in states that don't limit high cap mags or assault rifles. California as the most populated state should really get a lot more, right?

    Having teachers pack heat also sends the message to kids that violence is the way to solve problems. What happens when a kid grabs a Bushmaster from some now fat and out of shape math teacher that hasn't considered working out since the army was forcing him to back in the 1970s? Why do we want to live like they do in the middle east, again?

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    just a thought:

    Why don't Conservative Christian Republicans view controlling/banning the sale of assault weapons through the same moral microscope as they do birth control?
    Catholics are generally associated with being against birth control. Most Christian denominations have no problem with birth control - only abortion.

    If you read the Bible, Jesus actually tells his disciples to buy a sword.

    Luke 22:36 - "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

    Swords were the "assault weapons" of the period as the military used them as the primary weapon as there were no guns at the time. There is nothing morally wrong for a Christian to own a firearm so an AR15 is not anti-biblical.

    To set the record straight - an assault rifle properly defined is a weapon that is select-fire (safe, semi, full/burst) that is used for military purposes. An AR15 is not an assault rifle as it is not select fire since it does not fire full auto or burst and is not used by the military.
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  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    US schools haven't been good learning environments since about 1974 anyway...
    While India and China pump out engineers, we'll pump out marksmen. Great way to compete in the world economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    These mass murders also seem to happen in states that don't limit high cap mags or assault rifles. California as the most populated state should really get a lot more, right?

    Having teachers pack heat also sends the message to kids that violence is the way to solve problems. What happens when a kid grabs a Bushmaster from some now fat and out of shape math teacher that hasn't considered working out since the army was forcing him to back in the 1970s? Why do we want to live like they do in the middle east, again?
    My state (MO) doesn't have as draconian of gun laws as CT or CA and can't remember the last mass shooting we have had here? Most of the gun violence in MO are in the big cities (KC and STL) and most of it in the bad neighborhoods and most of it involves handguns...most handguns only hold 7 - 15 rounds depending on model and caliber.
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  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Catholics are generally associated with being against birth control. Most Christian denominations have no problem with birth control - only abortion.

    If you read the Bible, Jesus actually tells his disciples to buy a sword.

    Luke 22:36 - "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

    Swords were the "assault weapons" of the period as the military used them as the primary weapon as there were no guns at the time. There is nothing morally wrong for a Christian to own a firearm so an AR15 is not anti-biblical.

    To set the record straight - an assault rifle properly defined is a weapon that is select-fire (safe, semi, full/burst) that is used for military purposes. An AR15 is not an assault rifle as it is not select fire since it does not fire full auto or burst and is not used by the military.
    Christians long ago forget the pacifist nature of Jesus and made sure the bible was edited accordingly - in the end, when they meet the lord, they may get a big surprise.

    Maybe we should call these AR style or fake ARs? The funny thing is mini 14s would still be legal as they are in California, but of course they look nicer with wood stocks. No body shoots schools up them for some weird reason - perhaps the wood stock?

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    It doesn't require a ban. It requires a shift in thinking of the average American and a buy back scheme. Weapons bought back are destroyed and taken out of the loop. When Mum and Dad America stop thinking their freedom is being infringed by losing the right to have a wall-mounted rocket launcher long enough to realise that weapons in your home increase your personal as well as public risk, you may be surprised how many make the right decision and walk away from their weapons.

    This is not an argument about the rights of Americans, it is about the reality that guns have no place in the burbs and assault weapons have no place anywhere in society.

    Von Goethe had a couple of ideas for you - on the subject of your freedom
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free"
    and perhaps he was talking about this very issue
    "Nothing is worse than active ignorance"
    Your revelence of the poetry, writen by a man who live within a country (Germany) that had no centralist governent, should somehow explain how you dictating to me, which one of my rights is important. You said "When Mum and Dad America stop thinking their freedom is being infringed by losing the right ..."
    I paid dearly for all of our rights, what have you given? it's not negotiable!
    ~ A 1 legged AMERICAN Veteran
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    I wish I had been teaching there.
    There's a sentiment we can all agree on.

  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    lol, c'mon kjlued, this is stretching the bow pretty far mate lol

    Jumbo jets flying into buildings by terrorists is a ridiculous comparison, how many times has that happened
    How many times are things getting blown up with fertilizer lol, by the way you need a licence to buy it here, you need to have done a two day chemical course which i have done.
    these are not fair dinkum comparisons mate lol
    It isn't a stretch at all, if somebody wants to kill, they will kill.
    We didn't blame the planes in the attacks on Sept 11th nor did we blame the fertilizer in the OK city bombing. So why do we blame the guns if somebody gets shot?
    The gun can not get up, aim itself, and fire a bullet. It takes a person to operate it.
    That same person if they could not get a gun would kill by some other means if they wanted to.

    Yes, the sale of fertilizer is regulated.
    Yes, KNOWN terrorists can not get on airplanes.

    And guess what, the sale of handguns in most (not all) US states is also regulated and has a waiting period. You want additional regulations, fine. Banning is not the answer.

    BTW, guns banned in Australia does not make it safer.

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Australia vs United States

    Although your murder rate may be lower, your overall crime rate victims is 43% higher then the US and your rape victims are double. Not to mention, your nations perception of safety is a lot lower than that of the US.

    So, banning guns obviously is not the perfect answer.

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    It isn't a stretch at all, if somebody wants to kill, they will kill.
    We didn't blame the planes in the attacks on Sept 11th nor did we blame the fertilizer in the OK city bombing. So why do we blame the guns if somebody gets shot?
    The gun can not get up, aim itself, and fire a bullet. It takes a person to operate it.
    That same person if they could not get a gun would kill by some other means if they wanted to.

    Yes, the sale of fertilizer is regulated.
    Yes, KNOWN terrorists can not get on airplanes.

    And guess what, the sale of handguns in most (not all) US states is also regulated and has a waiting period. You want additional regulations, fine. Banning is not the answer.

    BTW, guns banned in Australia does not make it safer.

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Australia vs United States

    Although your murder rate may be lower, your overall crime rate victims is 43% higher then the US and your rape victims are double. Not to mention, your nations perception of safety is a lot lower than that of the US.

    So, banning guns obviously is not the perfect answer.
    It was founded by criminals. Just saying.

  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    It was founded by criminals. Just saying.
    Actually, there were already inhabitants there prior to them being placed there.


    BTW, a large portion of our countries murder rate is criminals killing criminals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Christians long ago forget the pacifist nature of Jesus and made sure the bible was edited accordingly - in the end, when they meet the lord, they may get a big surprise.

    Maybe we should call these AR style or fake ARs? The funny thing is mini 14s would still be legal as they are in California, but of course they look nicer with wood stocks. No body shoots schools up them for some weird reason - perhaps the wood stock?
    If you are saying the bible was edited to make Jesus appear to be something He was not, then you are saying the Bible is not the inerrant word of God as Christians believe it is. The Bible was written by people but the words were inspired by God - meaning God inspired them what to write. Misquoting God is not something that I would want to be guilty of.

    Jesus's pacifism doesn't mean Jesus was a pushover victim - when Jesus came to earth the first time - he came to lay down his life for mankind's redemption from sin and that required going to the cross to be crucified. He came as a lamb.

    Jesus made a whip and ran the money changers out of the temple. Hardly a pacifist action one would say.

    In the Old Testament, story after story of how God judged nations and people - Sodom and Gomorrah - God literally stoned those two cities into oblivion. Hardly a pacifist action.

    In the second coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation, Christ comes back to earth and smites all the armies gathered against Him. Hardly a pacifist action. The second time Christ comes back, He isn't coming as a lamb but a lion.

    Jesus didn't teach us to go around being violent so I am not trying to say Christians should be out looking to fight at every waking moment but that Jesus didn't teach us to be pushover victims to those who wish to prey upon us in my opinion.
    I don't use Strava. Don't need an application to tell me I am slow because I already know.

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  35. #185
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    The big problem America has with guns isn't the guns but the fact that half of you are gun nuts. What 300 million guns down there?

    The gun culture is the problem. Up here in Canada we have fairly restrictive guns laws but it is still very easy to get guns. Most people up here just don't bother. Owning a gun is primarily a rural thing, which does make semse. Others just don't bother.

    Just so you know, lots of my buddies had guns when I was a kid. These guys were macho types that thought owning guns was cool, not so different than many down south.

    I held a Ruger Mini 14 once, when a coworker showed it to us after work one day. About 3 weeks later he smoked a teacher he was sleeping with. He had purchased the 30 round clip that I said he needed to make the gun look cool. He used up about half the magazine on the guy.

    We all kind of knew the shooter was a nut job; I'm just glad he didn't shoot me.

    Just last summer I was at a firing range firing a friend's 9mm Glock, 357, and 22 pistols. It was fun, but so what. I don't get it. I can fire a gun, wow!

    Your culture needs to change. It isn't about gun control, it is about attitude. Way too many people think a gun is a tool to solve problems.

    Most of us here in the GWN would wonder why anyone would want to own a gun. What for?
    That is what the police are for.

    Do any of you wonder why our muder rate is so low? I don't.

    50 odd muders in Toronto last year, a city of 3 million. Most of those muders were gangland, very likely using smuggled guns from America.

    Chicago has roughly the same population yet has 600 murders. How can gun advocates fail to acknowledge this?

    BTW, my heart goes out to all the loved ones of those poor children and teachers. They will never be the same again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    The big problem America has with guns isn't the guns but the fact that half of you are gun nuts. What 300 million guns down there?

    The gun culture is the problem. Up here in Canada we have fairly restrictive guns laws but it is still very easy to get guns. Most people up here just don't bother. Owning a gun is primarily a rural thing, which does make semse. Others just don't bother.

    Just so you know, lots of my buddies had guns when I was a kid. These guys were macho types that thought owning guns was cool, not so different than many down south.

    I held a Ruger Mini 14 once, when a coworker showed it to us after work one day. About 3 weeks later he smoked a teacher he was sleeping with. He had purchased the 30 round clip that I said he needed to make the gun look cool. He used up about half the magazine on the guy.

    We all kind of knew the shooter was a nut job; I'm just glad he didn't shoot me.

    Just last summer I was at a firing range firing a friend's 9mm Glock, 357, and 22 pistols. It was fun, but so what. I don't get it. I can fire a gun, wow!

    Your culture needs to change. It isn't about gun control, it is about attitude. Way too many people think a gun is a tool to solve problems.

    Most of us here in the GWN would wonder why anyone would want to own a gun. What for?
    That is what the police are for.

    Do any of you wonder why our muder rate is so low? I don't.

    50 odd muders in Toronto last year, a city of 3 million. Most of those muders were gangland, very likely using smuggled guns from America.

    Chicago has roughly the same population yet has 600 murders. How can gun advocates fail to acknowledge this?

    BTW, my heart goes out to all the loved ones of those poor children and teachers. They will never be the same again.

    Drew



    The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that law enforcement agencies job is not to protect us, there is no reasonable expectation that they would be able to. So how can one expect as you say to leave it to the police?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    If you are saying the bible was edited to make Jesus appear to be something He was not, then you are saying the Bible is not the inerrant word of God as Christians believe it is. The Bible was written by people but the words were inspired by God - meaning God inspired them what to write. Misquoting God is not something that I would want to be guilty of.

    Jesus's pacifism doesn't mean Jesus was a pushover victim - when Jesus came to earth the first time - he came to lay down his life for mankind's redemption from sin and that required going to the cross to be crucified. He came as a lamb.

    Jesus made a whip and ran the money changers out of the temple. Hardly a pacifist action one would say.

    In the Old Testament, story after story of how God judged nations and people - Sodom and Gomorrah - God literally stoned those two cities into oblivion. Hardly a pacifist action.

    In the second coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation, Christ comes back to earth and smites all the armies gathered against Him. Hardly a pacifist action. The second time Christ comes back, He isn't coming as a lamb but a lion.

    Jesus didn't teach us to go around being violent so I am not trying to say Christians should be out looking to fight at every waking moment but that Jesus didn't teach us to be pushover victims to those who wish to prey upon us in my opinion.
    The bible is a collection of books that were cherry picked by the catholic church - many other books were left out. Some were written by, gasp, even women.

    One problem in believing the world will end is there's no good reason to fix it or preserve it in anyway.

  38. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Strongarm View Post
    The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that law enforcement agencies job is not to protect us, there is no reasonable expectation that they would be able to. So how can one expect as you say to leave it to the police?
    Obviously because for 99.9% of Canadians the police do a fine job.

    I would own a gun if I lived in the bush because that makes sense, since the cops would be a long time getting there to help.

    Living in the city, crime where a gun or even a knife is used is rare. For the most part muggings are swarm type events where a youth will have their stuff taken by 4 or 5 punks. Most of the time nothing more than fist are involved.

    Violence is primarily a young guy thing, in your culture and mine. However, up here most often this stuff is settled by fists. It is usually only in the big cities where swords, machetes, knives, bats and guns are used, and then again in a gang/criminal situation.

    Basically no one in the smaller cities is ever expecting to be shot in an altercation since almost no one carries around handguns. It is highly illegal do so, so the only people carrying them are gang members, and they only carry when there is 'work' to be done.

    Drew
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  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Obviously because for 99.9% of Canadians the police do a fine job.
    Orly?

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Canada vs United States

    Again, murder rate is lower but crime rate is not.


    I find it funny though how non Americans have such a grand insight on "the problem with Americans".

  40. #190
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    First off, I consider myself a pretty strong Christian. I was born into a Christian faith, sent to private Christian schools, walked away from the church for a period time, studied other religions of the world and then came back to Christian church.

    However, none of that matters as this tragedy has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
    Yes, if everyone in the world followed Christian teachings we would not have to worry about murder or any crime for that matter. However, same goes for if everyone followed the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism,
    and most other religions of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    The bible is a collection of books that were cherry picked by the catholic church - many other books were left out. Some were written by, gasp, even women.

    One problem in believing the world will end is there's no good reason to fix it or preserve it in anyway.
    Love the conspiracy theory of how books were left out.

    First off, you are correct the bible is a collection of books (and letters).
    However, what you fail to understand is that none of them were written with the intention of making a bible. Therefore your conspiracy theory of how the Vatican has omitted books is already blown out of the water. Yes, there were lots more additional letters and books written 2000 years ago about Christ which probably are numbering in the thousands. So if the Vatican didn't "cherry pick" what went in the book, the bible wouldn't be a book, it would be a library.

  41. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Orly?

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Canada vs United States

    Again, murder rate is lower but crime rate is not.


    I find it funny though how non Americans have such a grand insight on "the problem with Americans".
    Why is it funny? It is kind of sad that a comparable city has 10 times the murder rate than ours.

    The stats aren't really much of an insight.

    Many of your own citizens beleive exactly the same things I do about guns and gun ownership.

    If it's not a problem with guns or a gun culture how do you explain it?

    As for crime rates, so what? Ours is about the same as yours with the exception of all the murders.

    I'd call that a success, wouldn't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    First off, I consider myself a pretty strong Christian. I was born into a Christian faith, sent to private Christian schools, walked away from the church for a period time, studied other religions of the world and then came back to Christian church.

    However, none of that matters as this tragedy has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
    Yes, if everyone in the world followed Christian teachings we would not have to worry about murder or any crime for that matter. However, same goes for if everyone followed the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism,
    and most other religions of the world.



    Love the conspiracy theory of how books were left out.

    First off, you are correct the bible is a collection of books (and letters).
    However, what you fail to understand is that none of them were written with the intention of making a bible. Therefore your conspiracy theory of how the Vatican has omitted books is already blown out of the water. Yes, there were lots more additional letters and books written 2000 years ago about Christ which probably are numbering in the thousands. So if the Vatican didn't "cherry pick" what went in the book, the bible wouldn't be a book, it would be a library.
    Not a theory, it's fact. Yes, it would be a library with a lot more insight. I'd like to see the book written by Jesus' wife.

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    Double the rape victims a success?

    Maybe if some of those women would have been armed, they wouldn't have been victims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Why is it funny? It is kind of sad that a comparable city has 10 times the murder rate than ours.

    The stats aren't really much of an insight.

    Many of your own citizens beleive exactly the same things I do about guns and gun ownership.

    If it's not a problem with guns or a gun culture how do you explain it?

    As for crime rates, so what? Ours is about the same as yours with the exception of all the murders.

    I'd call that a success, wouldn't you?

    Drew
    Part of our lingering gun culture is because we fought for our freedom. You guys thought the King was cool and collaborated with the oppressors ... then later we've been obliged to save the world repeatedly ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Not a theory, it's fact. Yes, it would be a library with a lot more insight. I'd like to see the book written by Jesus' wife.
    Yes, I did not deny that many more books and letters were written during that time about Jesus. Neither does the Vatican deny it. However, the idea of some grand conspiracy is a theory and not fact. Maybe there is a conspiracy but their is no proof of it so therefore it is a theory by definition. Now if you can offer some proof let me know.

    And why do you want to see the book that this so called wife of Jesus wrote? Do you think you could translate it? Maybe he was married, there is evidence that supports that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. However there is still no known proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes, I did not deny that many more books and letters were written during that time about Jesus. Neither does the Vatican deny it. However, the idea of some grand conspiracy is a theory and not fact. Maybe there is a conspiracy but their is no proof of it so therefore it is a theory by definition. Now if you can offer some proof let me know.

    And why do you want to see the book that this so called wife of Jesus wrote? Do you think you could translate it? Maybe he was married, there is evidence that supports that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. However there is still no known proof.
    or any proof that jesus is anything more than just a man. where is the proof he was the son of god?

  47. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Double the rape victims a success?

    Maybe if some of those women would have been armed, they wouldn't have been victims.
    Come on, you're cherry picking.

    Rape here is double yours.

    US murder by firearm is 64 times ours.

    Maybe if you had tougher gun laws you could get that rate to only double instead.

    I read all the stats you linked.

    Like I said, aside from gun crime our countries are pretty much even.
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  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Part of our lingering gun culture is because we fought for our freedom. You guys thought the King was cool and collaborated with the oppressors ... then later we've been obliged to save the world repeatedly ...
    Well, it could easily be argued that a lot of your foreign intervention was based on economic self interest.

    Save the world repeatedly?

    The only wars that come to mind that were actually crucial to the west's freedom were the 1st and 2nd world wars.

    Everything else was a bit of a pissing match between the US and the USSR.

    For instance I don't really think Europe or Canada, or the US for that matter were endangered by the North Vietnamese over running the south.

    They did in fact over run it, and we are still fine aren't we?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Come on, you're cherry picking.

    Rape here is double yours.

    US murder by firearm is 64 times ours.

    Maybe if you had tougher gun laws you could get that rate to only double instead.

    I read all the stats you linked.

    Like I said, aside from gun crime our countries are pretty much even.
    I read them all too

    BTW, the stretch is not as bad as it seems when you consider the population of the United states is almost 10x as much. Which means are rate per is not 64x higher.

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    What OldJackpine said is the most sensible thing I've heard yet from a gun owner. I've talked to a few other hunters that seem to share these ideas. I am not a gun owner or a hunter, but I totally understand and respect the sport of hunting.

    I think there are hunters and then there are "gun-lovers". The gun-lovers may not even be hunters. I worked with a guy that had MANY firearms. He was not a hunter, but was convinced that there were all sorts of gov't conspiracies and that one day he would NEED those weapons. Is this a common mentality of gun-lovers? Why would anyone other than military and swat teams need automatic weapons? I just don't get it. They are desigend for the sole purpose of killing as many people as possible in a short amount of time. Just what the CT SOB did!! Do they honestly think that they WILL NEED them at some point? I also wonder if people that buy automatic weapons have some sort of obsession with death or like to feel powerful by owning such a weapon. I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just rying to figure out why a civilian would want or feel the need for an automatic weapon. I would never want an instrument of death like that in my home. Although I do totally support, say a handgun in the home for protection.

    And those that spout the 2nd amendment. Wasn't that wrtitten when muskets were being used where it took a minute or more to reload and had no sort of accuracy? Also, I believe it was written atleast partially so civilians could protect themselves from British forces . Did our forefathers envisionfuture school shootings by madmen? I doubt it.

    It is true that all the regulation in the world won't stop a madman from killing, but it might make it harder for them to succeed. It's easier to stop someone with a knife than it is to stop someone with an AK47.

    This whole tragedy has made me feel sick, like 9/11. I can tell you that I am looking at little kids differently now and really seeing the beauty that most of us are born with. my kids are only 8 & 10, and they still have that innocense of youth. I just don't understand why someone would want to destroy that.

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