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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm all for gun ownership, BUT, and only but if the applicant has a genuine reason for the firearm. Be it for sport, pest control I'm all for it, just how we have it set out in Australia, it's the only way it can work. 40% of guns sales in the US don't require a background check. Criminals getting their hands on the same firepower as the military/law enforcement is a disaster. This kid that did the shootings knew what he was doing, he was even wearing a bullet proof vest, why the fark would his mother need a bullet proof vest?
    Maybe she thought she'd be fighting the government soon when Obama turns power over to the UN (we had a public official in Texas go to the press with this theory). Lots of seriously paranoid people in our country. See we also lack a decent education system, so we keep pumping out a new crop of tinfoil hat wearers each year. Half the country thinks the earth is 6,000 years old.

    All kidding aside, America has a strong gun culture that is hard for outsiders to understand. Guns were once sold in barrels at hardware stores - of course that's before 30 round clips ...

  2. #102
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    For you folks replying that aren't American citizens.....trust me , most all Americans are extremely tired of these senseless , cowardly acts of violence in our country ! I am not gong to reply on the gun control issue but I can assure you that sportsman and hunters alike are very upset......why , because most of them abide by the laws and respect and appreciate the right of gun ownership in our country and see the deterioration of it due to conflict between radical opinions coming from both sides of the court ! Commonsense solutions are what we need without infringing on the rights of every law abiding citizen ! Please refrain on what's best for our country....I've been involved in cowboy action , sporting clays , hunting , and many other target shooting events and these people have fun and are very concerned about keeping it a safe environment ! Thank you !
    " A way to a deep freedom " - Tarja

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    Every single one of you has missed the mark.

    Ban this, ban that. Utter foolishness.

    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.

    Man's arrogance that he can fix all things is the very root of the problem. Only if/when every person finally comes the the understanding that they cannot do it alone, and surrender to God will things ever change. If you follow His rules and His commandments, no one gets hurt.

    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.


    BWAHAHAHAHA, pure 24k gold, theres always one in every post, id like to give Virtigo the award for the most ridiculous post in this thread maybe for the whole 2012 mtbr season..
    And how bout the last line, lol, ''but this is one argument you will lose in the end, just wait and see'' is there anything a god botherer doesnt know?
    Thanks for the insight vertigo....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  4. #104
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    TIGMAN, thank you for declining the observations of the rest of the world!

    Here on a MTB forum we have threads about public land managers threatening to stop authorised trail development because naughty rogue builders are out digging in the bush, this thread trying to legitimise weapon one-upmanship (not the point of the OP I know, but it's here) and threads come and go regarding the benefits of US military actions in far flung places where the only justification is profiteering of US businesses involved. In the end there can be no justification for stupidity.

    If you don't start listening to external voices of reason and interest, then the US will progress farther down the ladder of no return. In my lifetime the US has gone from the most respected nation on earth to one of the most dangerous and ridiculous. If we can all see the poison spreading past your borders from the outside, then it must be time to wake up TIGMAN. If only this was a joke instead of a sad reality with no sign of change.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN View Post
    Please refrain on what's best for our country...!
    Well, it's kind of hard to sit back and watch the same mistakes happen over and over again. Nothing is learn't from history, school shooting isn't a new phenomenon, it's been happening for about 250 yrs now, how much more time is needed and how many more children need to be shot before the government wakes up? Like I said, it's hard for the rest of the world to sit back and watch this kind of bs happen time after time after time.
    Tighter gun control will not have any affect on those law abiding citizens, none whatsoever, a lot if not most don't seem to get that part.
    The people it will effect will be those like that shooters mother. No civilian requires an assault rifle, a tool purposely made (for the military) to take out large numbers quickly and efficiently...let alone a school teacher.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-18-2012 at 01:49 AM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN View Post
    For you folks replying that aren't American citizens.....trust me , most all Americans are extremely tired of these senseless , cowardly acts of violence in our country ! I am not gong to reply on the gun control issue but I can assure you that sportsman and hunters alike are very upset......why , because most of them abide by the laws and respect and appreciate the right of gun ownership in our country and see the deterioration of it due to conflict between radical opinions coming from both sides of the court ! Commonsense solutions are what we need without infringing on the rights of every law abiding citizen ! Please refrain on what's best for our country....I've been involved in cowboy action , sporting clays , hunting , and many other target shooting events and these people have fun and are very concerned about keeping it a safe environment ! Thank you !
    LOL Tigman, 'please refrain on whats best for our country' half your problem is thinking you are too big to listen to anybody from the rest of the world, hows that going for you mate?

    Many of us have a very good understanding of many things in your country, for many years we measured ourselves off you guys, those days are well n truly gone now, but sometimes in life it is good to hear outsiders views that are outside the bubble, i know it might come as a shock to you but some people other than Americans have brains and ideas too.
    Do you think we are so stupid not to realise that most Americans and sportsmen and hunters are sick and tired of the current tragedies, keep your patronising ******** for somebody else.

    Ive had countless neg reps over the past year be-littleing Aussies, from Americans that think the rest of the world is irrellivant and stupid and that America is the only place that counts, its a pity, because this is how your country is seen around the globe by many, as arrogant and above everybody else and that if your not American your opinion is worth nothing.
    the funny thing is is out of all the people i know around the world, on internet sites and from inside our multicultural country here, its only ever Americans that act this way bar Dutch South Africans..
    I love Americans, i know that this is not true for most of you, i have generally been treated with nothing but warmth and hospitality here and i know thats how most of you are, but how bout not letting the rest of your fine county men down mate and wake up and realise that others have opinions and might not be as dumb and ignorant as you think we are.
    cheers mate..
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    TIGMAN, thank you for declining the observations of the rest of the world!

    Here on a MTB forum we have threads about public land managers threatening to stop authorised trail development because naughty rogue builders are out digging in the bush, this thread trying to legitimise weapon one-upmanship (not the point of the OP I know, but it's here) and threads come and go regarding the benefits of US military actions in far flung places where the only justification is profiteering of US businesses involved. In the end there can be no justification for stupidity.

    If you don't start listening to external voices of reason and interest, then the US will progress farther down the ladder of no return. In my lifetime the US has gone from the most respected nation on earth to one of the most dangerous and ridiculous. If we can all see the poison spreading past your borders from the outside, then it must be time to wake up TIGMAN. If only this was a joke instead of a sad reality with no sign of change.
    Well said mate, its guys like you that are willing to share opinions and have an open mind that actually get things done and give your country a good and fair name.
    cheers mate, reps to you brother.
    Last edited by Tone's; 12-18-2012 at 02:08 AM.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  8. #108
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    Well, in true MTBR fashion this turned in to the debate it shouldn't have.

    Tone, I told you that you can't open Pandora's box and then close it. lol

    Well, I will throw my hat in the ring of this useless debate of which there is no real perfect answer. I will start by asking a coupe questions.

    After April 19, 1995 when a crazed lunatic named Timothy McVeigh slaughtered 168 people, did we outlaw fertilizer?

    What about after Sept 11 2001 when a group of terrorists practically brought a nation to it's knees killing thousands of people, did we decommission all air planes?

    Ted Kaczynski was able to build bombs with stuff that can mostly be picked up at any hardware store. Do we ban those products?

    The answer to both questions is "No".

    The reason being is it was not the fertilizer or the airplanes fault.

    The guns did not kill those people and children, they were merely a tools that the killer used. He could have chose many of other things to do what he did, some of which way more destructive then a gun and we would not be sitting here having this conversation.

    I will agree that there is no real purpose for fully automatic assault rifles other than I am sure they can be fun to fire for some people but that is a moot point since they are already banned. However, hand guns do have a purpose and should not be banned. You may say the difference is that a hand guns only purpose is to kill, but I will a disagree. I say it is a tool which only purpose is to protect and unfortunately some people use it to kill.

    If you ban guns, do you think all the law breakers of the world are going to volunteer their guns? I highly doubt it.

    There is an old saying about if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will own guns. This is true.

    In my perfect world, there would be no need for guns as there would be no violence or crime. However, my perfect world does not exist and there are bad people out there that do bad things every day. Guns are not cause of these bad things but unfortunately this day this disturbed young man used one as his means to take the lives of 28 people. It is a sad day to see so many lives over turned in an instant but lets not blame the tool as there could have been many other tools chosen to commit this horrific crime.


    BTW, I do not own a hand gun and don't see myself owning one any time soon.
    I just don't personally feel the need for it but I will defend the right for those who do.
    That being said, I do not have a wife or girl friend living with me, I do not have any children, and I live in a totally safe are where I feel no need to lock my doors and often just leave the keys in the ignition of my car.

    On that note, I will end by saying that my thoughts and prayers go out to families and community that this tragedy affected.

  9. #109
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    There is an answer and it may not have had a chance in the past. "They" say that in Australia it took one mass murder to change the attitude of the country. People sold their guns back to the government and kids stopped thinking of owning a gun. Be clear, kids still play with guns here and probably always will**.

    I grew in up a cowboys and Indians kid. We all had fun and if you didn't like guns you could have a bow and arrow or knife. No whips! There were real whips in our street. Horses too.

    My Dad and all his family had been shooters at one time or another, including WWII. Back then I had a real gun and could walk down my street or through properties with it over my shoulder at age 7. I owned guns into the late 80's and was club target shooting after losing the little hunger I had for hunting in high school.

    I sold my weapons to a professional hunter I got to know when I moved to a new home in Perth, Western Australia. There were no kids or popular morals, but when you see a 7.62mm projectile pass through both sides of 3 inch pipe at 1000 yards (marking targets) and what a 180 grain hollow point bullet does to more wobbly targets and what a load of 12G does to flying critters, it is not a quantum leap to the simple fact that weapons of this type just do not have a place in the suburbs.

    My beautiful Remington 700BDL 308 was one to go. I heard it brought down roos, horses and some camel for the pet food industry and to preserve the land from ferals. Fine that, but leave it in my house with 20 people living within 20m - why?

    I am more intelligent than the US population - not hard; but face facts, until you morons learn how to discriminate the multiple actual invasions on your freedoms from the bullscheis shoved down your political and moral throats, then some loonies are going to worship school killers and all the other nutbags that go overboard reacting to your misguided society, fired by personal and social mental illness - like Tones said.

    Note I am not using this killers name - he does not exist in my mind and he should not be seen, named or the subject of media review. Focus on the evil and you come up with, guess what? - reasons to have assault rifles, wall-mounted rocket launchers and the right to inflict your will on anyone in your way......... Oh, wait, did I say something you were not supposed to hear??????????????

    **About a dozen years ago at my 40th BD party a number of people I had not known for long came along - newish rural location (with beach, ideal climate etc) and so did their kids and friends. During the earlier, feeling-out period, the subject of guns and kids came up. It was very clear we had some of the continually morally outraged at the do. No toy guns, no battle cries, no violence against your sister-types.

    I am absolutely sure 40+ pair of undies were wet from laughter when a conga line of (10?) kids marched down the stairs and out into the adults, our son in the lead, each with one or two toy guns and a steely glint in their eye. They did not join the adults, but went away to plan things.

    Isn't it time to take the reactive child out of public safety? Can you walk down your street, into the bush and have fun with a gun without consequences, Mr and Mrs America? Guess what? It's a new day, so how about showing the rest of the world what a real nation does to create a real example? Or maybe you want to revert to direct organism to organism conflict to prove your democracy via anarchy? Hmm?
    Last edited by Ridnparadise; 12-18-2012 at 03:47 AM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    After April 19, 1995 when a crazed lunatic named Timothy McVeigh slaughtered 168 people, did we outlaw fertilizer?

    What about after Sept 11 2001 when a group of terrorists practically brought a nation to it's knees killing thousands of people, did we decommission all air planes?
    Authorities have good reason to be concerned with fertilizer-based explosives. In one of the most horrific cases of domestic terrorism, Americans Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were convicted of detonating a bomb made with large quantities of ammonium nitrate fertilizer outside a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people.

    Since then, ammonium nitrate fertilizer has become so heavily regulated that many farm supply stores have stopped selling it.
    FBI Letter Warns of Fertilizer Purchases for Explosives - ABC News



    Suspected terrorists can’t fly on planes, but they can buy guns. The feds can track sales of fertilizer, but not semi-automatic rifles.
    If you’re a suspected terrorist, you’ll set off all kinds of alarm bells if you try to buy the precursor materials for a bomb. But if you going on a firearms shopping spree, you’re in the clear, since the government can’t legally maintain a database of gun owners. In other words, “there is no basis to automatically prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives because they appear on the terrorist watchlist,” a 2011 Government Accountability Office report found. (.pdf) Read that again: suspected terrorists can buy all the guns they want.
    5 Steps That Will Curb Gun Violence (And 5 Ways They Will Fail) | Danger Room | Wired.com

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudhen View Post
    I am a gun owner, but have never really delved deeply into the gun control issue.

    I was taught in law school to apply the facts to the law, and see where that leads you.

    I really have no opinion on the regulation of non-sporting firearms, but the facts just don't support their regulation as an overly statistically meaningful method of protecting human life.

    9000+- total people die from gun shot wounds in an average year in the US.

    40,000 die from alcohol related organic medical problems (no innocent victims).

    Another 40,000 die from alcohol related auto accidents (many innocent victims)

    450,000 die from the use of tobacco products, and 50,000 of them are non-smokers.

    The tobacco industry is a $12 billion a year industry, yet ONE STATE, California, spends $9 billion to treat tobacco related illness....

    So, until stats like this change, I'm just not interested in any discussion about gun control....

    More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.1,2

    Now, if a measure comes to a ballot vote, and the ballot bans:

    Smoking
    Drinking alcohol
    High School & College Sports - especially football
    Fast cars
    Bathtubs
    Stairs
    Assault Weapons
    Onions, Bell Peppers, and Mushroom (ok, this is not really a requirement)

    Then I might vote for it.......

    mudhen

    1.Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Smoking-Attributable Mortality, Years of Potential Life Lost, and Productivity Losses—United States, 2000–2004. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 2008;57(45):1226–8 [accessed 2011 Mar 11].
    2.McGinnis J, Foege WH. Actual Causes of Death in the United States. Journal of American Medical Association 1993;270:2207–12 [cited 2011 Mar 11].
    What you failed to mention is thet the people that die from Tobacco and Alcohol and drugs did it to themselves, they are not innocent people getting gunned down at schools and all the rest of your examples are basically accidents barring road deaths..
    These sort of comparisons are ridiculous..
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  12. #112
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    All I have to say is I went to Walmart last night to get a few things and it became quite apparent how messed up this country is. I never go to Walmart but needed to get an inexpensive pocket knife. I goto the sporting goods section and I can't find a single freaking pocket knife. They do how ever have a case full of guns. Hal of them are designed to looks like assault rifles. They are all semi auto .22 but designed to look like something out of call of duty. What purpose do these guns have?

    Well I walk out of Walmart out of total disgust. In part by the guns and lack of pocket knives. But also looking around it seems 90% of the stuff they sell is a bunch of plastic crap that's going to end up in a landfill in less than 180 days. I swear if I can help it I am never setting foot in that place again.

    So Im off to ***** sporting goods in search of a knife. Good news I found one. Well it wasn't quite so simple. They had them locked up so I had to goto the counter to ask them to come unlock one for me. The same time I made to the counter so did another guy asking to buy a shotgun. No lie this guy made it out of the store with a gun right before I made it out with my new knife.

    Makes you wonder. If our founding fathers had any idea it was going to be like this and there would be arms with the such the potential for distruction I think they would have thought twice. It was a different time then and having the right to bear arms was needed so people could protect their towns etc by forming militias. This was also before modern day police departments. It seems to me that in today's society guns aren't protecting they are infringing on others rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    It's sad we have become a nation consumed with fear and try to legitimacize that fear with the right to have firearms so easily accessable.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, in true MTBR fashion this turned in to the debate it shouldn't have.

    Tone, I told you that you can't open Pandora's box and then close it. lol

    Well, I will throw my hat in the ring of this useless debate of which there is no real perfect answer. I will start by asking a coupe questions.

    After April 19, 1995 when a crazed lunatic named Timothy McVeigh slaughtered 168 people, did we outlaw fertilizer?

    What about after Sept 11 2001 when a group of terrorists practically brought a nation to it's knees killing thousands of people, did we decommission all air planes?

    Ted Kaczynski was able to build bombs with stuff that can mostly be picked up at any hardware store. Do we ban those products?

    The answer to both questions is "No".

    The reason being is it was not the fertilizer or the airplanes fault.

    The guns did not kill those people and children, they were merely a tools that the killer used. He could have chose many of other things to do what he did, some of which way more destructive then a gun and we would not be sitting here having this conversation.

    I will agree that there is no real purpose for fully automatic assault rifles other than I am sure they can be fun to fire for some people but that is a moot point since they are already banned. However, hand guns do have a purpose and should not be banned. You may say the difference is that a hand guns only purpose is to kill, but I will a disagree. I say it is a tool which only purpose is to protect and unfortunately some people use it to kill.

    If you ban guns, do you think all the law breakers of the world are going to volunteer their guns? I highly doubt it.

    There is an old saying about if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will own guns. This is true.

    In my perfect world, there would be no need for guns as there would be no violence or crime. However, my perfect world does not exist and there are bad people out there that do bad things every day. Guns are not cause of these bad things but unfortunately this day this disturbed young man used one as his means to take the lives of 28 people. It is a sad day to see so many lives over turned in an instant but lets not blame the tool as there could have been many other tools chosen to commit this horrific crime.


    BTW, I do not own a hand gun and don't see myself owning one any time soon.
    I just don't personally feel the need for it but I will defend the right for those who do.
    That being said, I do not have a wife or girl friend living with me, I do not have any children, and I live in a totally safe are where I feel no need to lock my doors and often just leave the keys in the ignition of my car.

    On that note, I will end by saying that my thoughts and prayers go out to families and community that this tragedy affected.
    lol, c'mon kjlued, this is stretching the bow pretty far mate lol

    Jumbo jets flying into buildings by terrorists is a ridiculous comparison, how many times has that happened
    How many times are things getting blown up with fertilizer lol, by the way you need a licence to buy it here, you need to have done a two day chemical course which i have done.
    these are not fair dinkum comparisons mate lol
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    I am more intelligent than the US population - not hard; but face facts, until you morons learn how to discriminate the multiple actual invasions on your freedoms from the bullscheis shoved down your political and moral throats, then some loonies are going to worship school killers and all the other nutbags that go overboard reacting to your misguided society, fired by personal and social mental illness - like Tones said.
    Here's what happens when you write nonsense like that. All the idiots wrap themselves in the flag and pile in. At that point the argument becomes "My country right or wrong" and the people who actually have something to say bale. Then the thread gets binned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    What you failed to mention is thet the people that die from Tobacco and Alcohol and drugs did it to themselves, they are not innocent people getting gunned down at schools and all the rest of your examples are basically accidents barring road deaths..
    These sort of comparisons are ridiculous..
    Not all alcohol deaths are self inflicted. How many innocent people die each year after being hit by drunk drivers? Second hand smoke?
    I don't use Strava. Don't need an application to tell me I am slow because I already know.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Here's what happens when you write nonsense like that. All the idiots wrap themselves in the flag and pile in. At that point the argument becomes "My country right or wrong" and the people who actually have something to say bale. Then the thread gets binned.
    Nonsense does not require a reply

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Not all alcohol deaths are self inflicted. How many innocent people die each year after being hit by drunk drivers? Second hand smoke?
    Of course, but are there rules about drink driving, last time i looked it was a serious offence?
    Are there laws about no smoking in clubs and pubs and public places, there are here? its an offence.
    You see when theres a serious problem most right minded people do something about it.

    Maybe there needs to be some serious laws with firearms, or should it just be a free for all like it already is, hows that going for your country?
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Of course, but are there rules about drink driving, last time i looked it was a serious offence?
    Are there laws about no smoking in clubs and pubs and public places, there are here? its an offence.
    You see when theres a serious problem most right minded people do something about it.

    Maybe there needs to be some serious laws with firearms, or should it just be a free for all like it already is, hows that going for your country?




    We have thousands of "serious laws with firearms", the enforcement of those already existing laws is what is lacking. I mean c'mon, the U.S. Government is still covering up their own breaking of the laws with "Fast and Furious" the gun walking fiasco that put weapons in the hands of Narco Terrorists. I humbly suggest that we have more than enough laws to deal with it, enforcing them is another issue altogether.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    We have thousands of "serious laws with firearms", the enforcement of those already existing laws is what is lacking. I mean c'mon, the U.S. Government is still covering up their own breaking of the laws with "Fast and Furious" the gun walking fiasco that put weapons in the hands of Narco Terrorists. I humbly suggest that we have more than enough laws to deal with it, enforcing them is another issue altogether.
    AZ with all due respect,

    Can you tell me the reasons and purpose of having Automatic and semi automatic assult weapons and handguns in mainstream society are, barring there use with law enforcement.
    We have had one shooting spree here in 30 years, they are banned here and thats the reason we have had one mass shooting in a country full of lunatics.
    These weapons should be banned in any responsible country.

    Please dont tell me that if citizens are armed with them they can avert mass shootings by killing the shooter, as there has only been ONE yes one known case of that senario in your country and that facts from a US professor interviewed for AUS television

    He also stated that while you need to fill out a questionaire to buy a gun in many US states its is not cross checked by the police,thus you can lie and avoid prisicution, guns are basically sold to anybody.

    yes i agree enforcing rules is not easy, but you have to start somewhere, it will take decades to have a real effect, but compared to AUS and Britain and most other advanced countries, your gun rules are non existant AZ
    cheers
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    AZ with all due respect,

    Can you tell me the reasons and purpose of having Automatic and semi automatic assult weapons and handguns in mainstream society are, barring there use with law enforcement.
    We have had one shooting spree here in 30 years, they are banned here and thats the reason we have had one mass shooting in a country full of lunatics.
    These weapons should be banned in any responsible country.

    Please dont tell me that if citizens are armed with them they can avert mass shootings by killing the shooter, as there has only been ONE yes one known case of that senario in your country and that facts from a US professor interviewed for AUS television

    He also stated that while you need to fill out a questionaire to buy a gun in many US states its is not cross checked by the police,thus you can lie and avoid prisicution, guns are basically sold to anybody.

    yes i agree enforcing rules is not easy, but you have to start somewhere, it will take decades to have a real effect, but compared to AUS and Britain and most other advanced countries, your gun rules are non existant AZ
    cheers


    You should probably cross check your info before basing an argument on it. In addition to a questionnaire there is also an F.B.I. background check that must take place when purchasing weapons. So please, stop with the rhetoric, especially rhetoric that is based on info that is incomplete or fabricated. Our rights are protected by our Constitution which by its very design is not easy to subvert. Amending our Constitution is not a simple task, but it does make it more difficult for a tyrannical administration to trample upon our rights. Our Constitution is the foundation of this country and imperfect as it may be it serves us well in protecting our rights. One question, how much did the murder rate fall after the gun buy back in oz? 70%?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    You should probably cross check your info before basing an argument on it. In addition to a questionnaire there is also an F.B.I. background check that must take place when purchasing weapons. So please, stop with the rhetoric, especially rhetoric that is based on info that is incomplete or fabricated. Our rights are protected by our Constitution which by its very design is not easy to subvert. Amending our Constitution is not a simple task, but it does make it more difficult for a tyrannical administration to trample upon our rights. Our Constitution is the foundation of this country and imperfect as it may be it serves us well in protecting our rights. One question, how much did the murder rate fall after the gun buy back in oz? 70%?
    mate, you didnt answer my questions above, and your telling me that its a fact that there is an FBI check in every US state? i never stated every state.
    I asked you a simple question about semi and automatic weapons which i though was very fair?
    I stated a fact that there has only been one armed citizen to shoot a shooter on a shooting spree.
    I stated that in 'many' US states background checks are not cross referenced with police as i heard from a US citizen on TV today.

    And can you please point out the Rhetoric and incomplete and fabricated info above, and instead of getting upset how bout explain it to me.

    And to answer your question im not sure how much the murder rate declined here after the gun buy back, i'll have to do some research, but i can tell you we have only had one mass shooting here and none on the mainland since the gun buy back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    mate, you didnt answer my questions above, and your telling me that its a fact that there is an FBI check in every US state? i never stated every state.
    I asked you a simple question about semi and automatic weapons which i though was very fair?
    I stated a fact that there has only been one armed citizen to shoot a shooter on a shooting spree.
    I stated that in 'many' US states background checks are not cross referenced with police as i heard from a US citizen on TV today.

    And can you please point out the Rhetoric and incomplete and fabricated info above, and instead of getting upset how bout explain it to me.

    And to answer your question im not sure how much the murder rate declined here after the gun buy back, i'll have to do some research, but i can tell you we have only had one mass shooting here and none on the mainland since the gun buy back.



    The simple answer is that it is a right guarantied by the 2nd amendment our Constitution.
    Until that is changed it is our inalienable right. I can appreciated that you have a very strong opinion on the subject, but at the end of the day, our Constitution trumps all as it should.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    You should probably cross check your info before basing an argument on it. In addition to a questionnaire there is also an F.B.I. background check that must take place when purchasing weapons. So please, stop with the rhetoric, especially rhetoric that is based on info that is incomplete or fabricated. Our rights are protected by our Constitution which by its very design is not easy to subvert. Amending our Constitution is not a simple task, but it does make it more difficult for a tyrannical administration to trample upon our rights. Our Constitution is the foundation of this country and imperfect as it may be it serves us well in protecting our rights. One question, how much did the murder rate fall after the gun buy back in oz? 70%?
    And the answer to your question.

    Suicide rates by fire arm has dropped 150% since 1996 when the gun buy back scheme happened, all semi and auto guns were banned, handguns were banned many years before this.

    Homicide rates from firearms have dropped from 0.04 per 100k to 0.01 per 100k, so yes your looking at about a 70% reduction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Not all alcohol deaths are self inflicted. How many innocent people die each year after being hit by drunk drivers? Second hand smoke?
    Good point. So why not treat guns the same as alcohol, tobacco and cars.

    Alcohol and tobacco can only be sold by licensed vendors.
    Alcohol and tobacco can not be sold second hand person to person.
    Alcohol and tobacco are heavily taxed.

    In order to drive a car legally you need 3rd party injury insurance.
    In order to drive a car legally you need a license for which you must pass a stringent test.
    In order to drive a car legally it must be registered.

    You'll notice that applying any or all of these simple measures to guns wouldn't infringe even slightly upon your 2nd amendment rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    And the answer to your question.

    Suicide rates by fire arm has dropped 150% since 1996 when the gun buy back scheme happened, all semi and auto guns were banned, handguns were banned many years before this.

    Homicide rates from firearms have dropped from 0.04 per 100k to 0.01 per 100k, so yes your looking at about a 70% reduction.



    How much have violence using other weapons gone up? I humbly suggest that the weapon of choice simply shifted from firearms to knives. I do not wish to be drawn into a discussion of the merits of one political system or another, I rather simply wish to point out that our Constitution is the default to any discussion on this matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    How much have violence using other weapons gone up? I humbly suggest that the weapon of choice simply shifted from firearms to knives.
    Your dead right AZ, it has shifted to other methods, but ive been trying to point out that removing semis, autos and semi handguns will stop a lot of the cases of mass carnage in places like schools and the likes, i could be wrong in my opinion but it looks very much like all of these crimes are commited with the weapons above which in my opinion have no place in any country.
    Thats the first and foremost thing ive been refering to when i say the US needs stricter gun laws, stricter meaning banning these guns, after all we are talking about school mass shooting carried out using these weapons.

    Az im actually PRO gun, my father was a professional Taxidermist, one of the best in AUS, and hunter, i grew up with guns and when he died i had possesion of over 30 guns, many that i handed back in 96, because they were semi and automatic.
    Im a licensed gun owner and own guns myself,

    Im not saying im right, its just an opinion, and like arseholes, everybodies got one mate.

    cheers mate
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    How much have violence using other weapons gone up? I humbly suggest that the weapon of choice simply shifted from firearms to knives. I do not wish to be drawn into a discussion of the merits of one political system or another, I rather simply wish to point out that our Constitution is the default to any discussion on this matter.
    Homicide has been on the decline since the mid 90s. People might of shifted to other methods...ie knives, but the death rate is falling. Not as many are getting killed with knives as apposed to guns
    I should state the probable reason for declining death rate caused by knife is because pocket knives are banned in Oz, except for very small non lock back type, basically a keyring knife.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-18-2012 at 07:20 AM.

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    ^ To add some context, the Homicide rate in the U.S. is falling as well in fairness. The human animal will always find a way to exterminate one another no matter the means. The ssue of guns in this country is very complex and a solution is not likely any time soon. As AZ. points out it is a constitutional issue and amending the constitution is no easy task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    ^ To add some context, the Homicide rate in the U.S. is falling as well in fairness. The human animal will always find a way to exterminate one another no matter the means. The ssue of guns in this country is very complex and a solution is not likely any time soon. As AZ. points out it is a constitutional issue and amending the constitution is no easy task.
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used. There are a multitude of measures which can be taken without infringing upon the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    As a small example. You and your family are substantially more likely to die from gunshot if you keep guns in the house. This unfairly increases the cost of life insurance for those who don't. If insurance companies were mandated to take this risk into account when setting premiums the imbalance could be addressed. No amendment needed.
    This doesn't infringe upon your constitutional right to bear arms, it just costs you more. Gun owners constantly talk about the defence of liberty, put a price upon that and see how dedicated they are.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used.
    .
    Exactly The NRA (the gun industry's mouthpiece) has got many people thinking that any limits on their ability to sell any type of gun to any person is the same thing as an outright ban on all guns.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used. There are a multitude of measures which can be taken without infringing upon the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    As a small example. You and your family are substantially more likely to die from gunshot if you keep guns in the house. This unfairly increases the cost of life insurance for those who don't. If insurance companies were mandated to take this risk into account when setting premiums the imbalance could be addressed. No amendment needed.
    This doesn't infringe upon your constitutional right to bear arms, it just costs you more. Gun owners constantly talk about the defence of liberty, put a price upon that and see how dedicated they are.



    The 10 amendment covers that I believe. And I humbly suggest that the price of liberty has already been paid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    The 10 amendment covers that I believe. And I humbly suggest that the price of liberty has already been paid.
    You're probably right about the 10th amendment, at least as interpreted by Scalia. I don't understand the rest of the sentence. Do you mean that the price of liberty has been paid for in dead children?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    You're probably right about the 10th amendment, at least as interpreted by Scalia. I don't understand the rest of the sentence. Do you mean that the price of liberty has been paid for in dead children?



    No, the price of liberty has been paid for by 236 years of sacrifice by others. As I posted earlier, I do not care to enter into a political debate, I am not proclaiming right or wrong, just pointing out what should be obvious and why it makes any action extremely difficult. So, I am bowing out of this discussion, Merry Christmas to all, be safe and respect one another.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    No, the price of liberty has been paid for by 236 years of sacrifice by others.
    No, still not getting it. You're not a dumb bloke AZ, neither am I. Why are you sounding like a talking bumper sticker? If you've a point to make, make it. You must know by now that I'll afford you a reasoned discussion, whether you agree with me or not.

    edit: Nevermind, just seen your amended post.

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    Americans fought a revolution to gain their liberty, and have defended it since then (as well as defended others). What is so hard to understand about our liberty being paid for through the sacrifice of others. This is one of the reasons we defend our liberty so rabidly, it came at a very high price. We may not have a perfect system but its ours and many of us paid a vey high price for it, so please have some respect for that.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    All kidding aside, America has a strong gun culture that is hard for outsiders to understand. Guns were once sold in barrels at hardware stores - of course that's before 30 round clips ...
    This reflection is important.
    This obsession for the possession of weapons is incomprehensible to many foreigners.
    Then better to pray for the children and their families

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Good point. So why not treat guns the same as alcohol, tobacco and cars.

    Alcohol and tobacco can only be sold by licensed vendors.
    Alcohol and tobacco can not be sold second hand person to person.
    Alcohol and tobacco are heavily taxed.

    In order to drive a car legally you need 3rd party injury insurance.
    In order to drive a car legally you need a license for which you must pass a stringent test.
    In order to drive a car legally it must be registered.

    You'll notice that applying any or all of these simple measures to guns wouldn't infringe even slightly upon your 2nd amendment rights.
    In Canada, they made gun owners register before they banned them..
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    Americans fought a revolution to gain their liberty, and have defended it since then (as well as defended others). What is so hard to understand about our liberty being paid for through the sacrifice of others. This is one of the reasons we defend our liberty so rabidly, it came at a very high price. We may not have a perfect system but its ours and many of us paid a vey high price for it, so please have some respect for that.
    Don't do that. It's a transparent ploy to shut down discussion, and it will probably work. Everybody in the free world has made sacrifices for liberty. And many still under the yoke of authoritarian oppression are still doing so. It's not a peculiarly American thing and to suggest it is shows enormous disrespect to people all around the world who have fought, suffered and died for freedom, and who are still doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Don't do that. It's a transparent ploy to shut down discussion, and it will probably work. Everybody in the free world has made sacrifices for liberty. And many still under the yoke of authoritarian oppression are still doing so. It's not a peculiarly American thing and to suggest it is shows enormous disrespect to people all around the world who have fought, suffered and died for freedom, and who are still doing so.
    I believe roadie scum was referring to our American liberties with his post. Sure, other nations have varied amounts of liberty from total authoritarian regimes like North Korea to quasi-socialist nations such as Europe. However, Americans are genuine because not only have we fought for our own liberties, we have died for other nations liberties in two World Wars and all around the world.

    Imagine what the world would look like today if we had not gotten involved in World War II? The entirety of Europe would be Nazi Germany.

    The recent conflicts we have gotten into can be questioned whether or not they are legitimate..I have questions on it myself but I don't blame the soldiers but rather the leadership that is sending them over there to fight senseless conflicts so they can continue to bleed our economy dry.

    But without the blood, sweat, and tears of our military and our military forefathers, you and I would not have the right to post opinions on the internet without fear of someone breaking into your door to arrest you if you posted something the government didn't like as in nations that would in this world.
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  40. #140
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    As predicted #114

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used. There are a multitude of measures which can be taken without infringing upon the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    As a small example. You and your family are substantially more likely to die from gunshot if you keep guns in the house. This unfairly increases the cost of life insurance for those who don't. If insurance companies were mandated to take this risk into account when setting premiums the imbalance could be addressed. No amendment needed.
    This doesn't infringe upon your constitutional right to bear arms, it just costs you more. Gun owners constantly talk about the defence of liberty, put a price upon that and see how dedicated they are.
    It is a Constitutional issue because the second amendment reads,

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The phrase "shall not be infringed" translates just like it says...there shall be no law denying the right of people to keep firearms nor carry them (bear) with you.

    By Constitutional standards, all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Now, according to those in our government who don't like the 2nd amendment, they want us to reason that it says firearms can be regulated but it is there black and white - the founders put firearm regulation off limits to the powers to be.
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  42. #142
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    I see why I don't come here much anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherijumper View Post
    I see why I don't come here much anymore.
    I can understand the sentiment...hot topic political discussions are usually not the most enjoyable experience but I believe the debates are necessary and as long as everyone remains respectable and civil, we can discuss the topic in as much detail as the circumstances allow.
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  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    It is a Constitutional issue because the second amendment reads,

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The phrase "shall not be infringed" translates just like it says...there shall be no law denying the right of people to keep firearms nor carry them (bear) with you.

    By Constitutional standards, all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Now, according to those in our government who don't like the 2nd amendment, they want us to reason that it says firearms can be regulated but it is there black and white - the founders put firearm regulation off limits to the powers to be.
    Well an ammendment can be ammended....or repealed

    Secondly it was an ammendment so the FOUNDERS wern't the authors.

    Third the real world has a way of impressing itself on laws.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    In Canada, they made gun owners register before they banned them..
    Wow

    That is an oversimplification for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    The simple answer is that it is a right guarantied by the 2nd amendment our Constitution.
    Until that is changed it is our inalienable right. I can appreciated that you have a very strong opinion on the subject, but at the end of the day, our Constitution trumps all as it should.
    Yeah inaleinable right until it is repealed.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Yeah inaleinable right until it is repealed.
    Hard to take away this particular freedom as it's the second amendment. What level of arms should we stop at, that's the real question? Do we need 30 round clips? Rocket launchers?

    My great grandpa feed the family with deer meat. When he hunted, he took only one round for the old Winchester - he believed one round was enough and if he couldn't get dinner with that, they deserved not to eat. Now we need military weapons and 30 round clips, I guess ...

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    It is a Constitutional issue because the second amendment reads,

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The phrase "shall not be infringed" translates just like it says...there shall be no law denying the right of people to keep firearms nor carry them (bear) with you.

    By Constitutional standards, all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Now, according to those in our government who don't like the 2nd amendment, they want us to reason that it says firearms can be regulated but it is there black and white - the founders put firearm regulation off limits to the powers to be.
    All of which was written before the days of 30-round magazines, guns capable of firing hundreds of rounds per minute, and a culture that glamorizes violence. Times change. Societies change. Laws and rights need to change as well.

    At some point, the responsibility of doing whatever it takes to keep weapons like that out of the hands of maniacs has to trump the right of an average citizen to own one "just because I can".

    We don't need to ban ALL guns. We can amend the right accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Well an ammendment can be ammended....or repealed

    Secondly it was an ammendment so the FOUNDERS wern't the authors.

    Third the real world has a way of impressing itself on laws.
    The Bill of Rights was introduced by James Madison who is called "The father of the Constitution" in the 1st Congress in 1789.

    Yes, it can be repealed by another amendment like the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment. Good luck doing it because amending the Constitution is not an easy procedure as it was intended by the founders to be an exhaustive procedure.

    But our government won't do it - because it won't pass 3/4 of the state legislatures let alone the House or maybe even the Senate and the huge firestorm it would create so they are sidestepping it via other laws and executive measures.
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