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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    my suggestion would be to ban automatic weapons and hand guns. no one "needs" them. nothing wrong with hunting and owning weapons for that. arming everyone to "protect" them is hardly an answer. how do you keep simple matters and disagreements from escalating to murder when people are fully armed? that is your answer? in the heat of the moment during a simple argument, what happens when someone has a gun? why is it necessary to be armed always? who are we protecting ourselves from? the government?
    As someone with a very "opinionated" spouse, I am well atuned to heated arguments. Everyone has them - the issue with arguments is that each person wants to be right and/or have the last word and in a heated argument - both people's pride and ego prevent them from letting the other win by having the last word... things keep escalating and with no one having a calm head or self control - the potential for violence is there.

    However, the majority of us won't cross the line into violence and the segment of our population that do are not representative of the majority of us.

    Alot of arguments are avoidable, some are not. You as a participant of an argument cannot control what the other partie(s) actions and attitudes will be but you can control your own. Self control would dictate that you can do your part in preventing the argument from reaching the boiling point by either walking away, calming the situation with your own words and actions, or other means to try to avoid violence.

    I believe we should be allowed to be armed always as protection from criminals..Criminals don't make appointments with their victims so only the criminal knows when a crime is going to occur - they occur on their schedule. The victim usually isn't privy to that knowledge.

    Hence why I believe someone should be always armed -- how many times being unarmed does it take to be a defenseless victim? Just one.

    Also, in my opinion, being armed is a deterrent to those who would wish to do us harm - if we look at these mass shootings - they all happen where no one is armed because these criminals are cowards. They go for easy prey versus prey that can fight back.

    Having been in the military and studied many historical battles, knowing how your enemy thinks is very vital to victory. You put yourself in the mindset of your enemy and you can see things alot more clearer... If you were wanting to rack up dozens of casualties, where would you go? If you wanted to break into a house, which one would you break into? One that you knew 100% the target was unarmed or one you knew 100% was armed? Most criminals do value their own lives so they don't want to check out no more than you do. Obviously, some are exceptions but for the most part, criminals are after gain for themselves.

    As for government, our founders believed it to be a necessary evil...all governments are evil by their nature - filled with power hungry, self serving beaurocrats who all have the potential to misuse their power - just look around the world and anyone can see multiple examples of governments that abuse their power and abuse their citizenry. In layman's term, it's called tyranny.

    It was tyranny that gave birth to this nation in the first place. To say that our government is immune from the same cancer of tyranny that other governments have fallen into is simple blindness - the second amendment was put into our bill of rights because the founding fathers knew even the government that they fought, bled, and died to create could become the same tyranny they just freed themselves from and in their wisdom of checks and balances created the right of the American people to be armed as the ultimate check to the government should they cross the line into tyranny.

    The second amendment can be thanked for the prevention of the mainland United States from not being invaded by Japan in World War II. The Japanese military knew it would be suicidal for them to invade us because "there would be a gun behind every blade of grass".

    Again, look up the history of our nation, the founding fathers... the same Constitution that gives us the vast freedoms and liberties we as the American citizen have is the same Constitution that cages the government with limited powers. The Constitution is a cage to the Government and like a beast in a cage (the founders called it a necessary evil) the beast will always try to find a way out of the cage.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    As someone with a very "opinionated" spouse, I am well atuned to heated arguments. Everyone has them - the issue with arguments is that each person wants to be right and/or have the last word and in a heated argument - both people's pride and ego prevent them from letting the other win by having the last word... things keep escalating and with no one having a calm head or self control - the potential for violence is there.

    However, the majority of us won't cross the line into violence and the segment of our population that do are not representative of the majority of us.

    Alot of arguments are avoidable, some are not. You as a participant of an argument cannot control what the other partie(s) actions and attitudes will be but you can control your own. Self control would dictate that you can do your part in preventing the argument from reaching the boiling point by either walking away, calming the situation with your own words and actions, or other means to try to avoid violence.

    I believe we should be allowed to be armed always as protection from criminals..Criminals don't make appointments with their victims so only the criminal knows when a crime is going to occur - they occur on their schedule. The victim usually isn't privy to that knowledge.

    Hence why I believe someone should be always armed -- how many times being unarmed does it take to be a defenseless victim? Just one.

    Also, in my opinion, being armed is a deterrent to those who would wish to do us harm - if we look at these mass shootings - they all happen where no one is armed because these criminals are cowards. They go for easy prey versus prey that can fight back.

    Having been in the military and studied many historical battles, knowing how your enemy thinks is very vital to victory. You put yourself in the mindset of your enemy and you can see things alot more clearer... If you were wanting to rack up dozens of casualties, where would you go? If you wanted to break into a house, which one would you break into? One that you knew 100% the target was unarmed or one you knew 100% was armed? Most criminals do value their own lives so they don't want to check out no more than you do. Obviously, some are exceptions but for the most part, criminals are after gain for themselves.

    As for government, our founders believed it to be a necessary evil...all governments are evil by their nature - filled with power hungry, self serving beaurocrats who all have the potential to misuse their power - just look around the world and anyone can see multiple examples of governments that abuse their power and abuse their citizenry. In layman's term, it's called tyranny.

    It was tyranny that gave birth to this nation in the first place. To say that our government is immune from the same cancer of tyranny that other governments have fallen into is simple blindness - the second amendment was put into our bill of rights because the founding fathers knew even the government that they fought, bled, and died to create could become the same tyranny they just freed themselves from and in their wisdom of checks and balances created the right of the American people to be armed as the ultimate check to the government should they cross the line into tyranny.

    The second amendment can be thanked for the prevention of the mainland United States from not being invaded by Japan in World War II. The Japanese military knew it would be suicidal for them to invade us because "there would be a gun behind every blade of grass".

    Again, look up the history of our nation, the founding fathers... the same Constitution that gives us the vast freedoms and liberties we as the American citizen have is the same Constitution that cages the government with limited powers. The Constitution is a cage to the Government and like a beast in a cage (the founders called it a necessary evil) the beast will always try to find a way out of the cage.
    Mate i heard a statistic today on TV from an american that only ONCE yes only once has a gunman been shot by an armed observer in any serious shooting spree in the states, that blows the theory above totally out of the water...
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  3. #53
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    Unfortunately, tragedy goes the other way too. In 2004 - we lost a mountain biker, when he went too fast on a overgrown section of local singletrack. He washed-out his front tire, and the crash threw him into a dead, fallen Manzanita tree. One of the protruding branches went right through his neck and severed his jugular...one of the WORST ways to die. RIP...
    "The ONLY person who needs to race.....is the entrant"

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    Thought you didn't want to debate...

    To your original point, yes, it was great to get out on saturday morning and spend a few hours in the trees. Things like what happened friday make me understand why some people get off the grid.
    Haha yeah, I shouldn't be tempted here! Glad you got to blow off some steam on the saddle. If the wind weren't blowing frigid air right now I might be doing the same.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    The reason i mentioned it in an earlier thread and didnt continue with it was to show i think its an area that has to be addressed but also because i have bought it up in another thread to which serious debate followed and many were upset that the gun debate was detracting from the tragedy.

    For the record im not anti guns, my father was a Taxidermist and shooter and i grew up shooting and had a house full of guns..
    Im for people to take greater responsibility with the security of them, and im all for the banning of automatic and semi automatic weapons and for the banning of handguns.
    All three are banned here and we have had one mass shooting in 25 years and we have our fair share of lunatics here.

    Ive asked in another thread could somebody give me the reasons and uses of semi and automatic weapons BAR law enforcement in society and im yet to get one answer..

    Better work needs to be done with mental illness
    Tougher gun regulations are needed
    The banning of handguns and autos a semis are needed imo
    Tougher home security is needed with weapons in general
    Tougher screening is needed when buying weapons

    Just my opinion...
    The reason for ownership of these type of firearms is simple, its to protect your familiy from the criminals that possess them. A bolt action is no match for a crazed gunman with an AK47... Just sayin
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

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  7. #57
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    The reason for ownership of these type of firearms is simple, its to protect your familiy from the criminals that possess them. A bolt action is no match for a crazed gunman with an AK47... Just sayin
    How many criminals bust into your house with an AK47 (yes, I saw you live in Salinas)? It doesn't happen to me too often.

  9. #59
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  10. #60
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    I was brought up with guns - lots of many loaded guns (hanging all over the walls) and learned a healthy respect for them as a child. My family is filled with both liberals and conservatives and yep they both own lots of guns (my hippy cousins even have AK47s) - hard for some to believe given prevailing stereotypes, I'd imagine.

    So, I'm very conflicted about gun control. That said, why is it nobody ever commits a crime like this with a bolt action, lever action, hunting shotgun or six shooter? At some point we need to address this issue - what level of weaponry is enough? A poster in Salinas lives in the 'hood and needs to fight criminal with AKs - what happens when that's not enough, does he get a stinger missile?
    Last edited by SS Hack; 12-17-2012 at 10:16 AM.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post

    ...

    The shooter had a .223 bushmaster and two handguns - 3 in all with some reports he had more in the car. It is easily stated he was heavily armed. How many guns did the principal and her staff have? Zero. Because schools are gun-free zones, you have in effect a total gun ban and no second amendment on those properties so that should pretty much tell you all you need to know about gun control - the simple fact is that it doesn't work but rather has the opposite effect - it attracts those bent on massacring innocent people to those places.

    The shooter didn't go to city hall, the capitol building, a police station and attempt to shoot as many folks did he? Do you wonder why? It's pretty explanatory that he couldn't get the numbers because he would have been taken down by those in those facilities who are armed.

    ...blah blah blah...
    A killer like this is hell bent on causing as much devastation as he can, in the shortest amount of time. Do you honestly believe this type of reasoning goes through a killers mind during these attacks? If so, you are as delusional as he is.

    Yet another discussion goes straight to the **** bin. Lost already are the legacy of the victims, because our society would rather talk about the perp, and what caused it, and why, and how he was raised, and how he became a victim, and so on and so on....and we'll renew heated debates on gun control and mental illness....and all the while the families of the victims will fade away in silence. There is no news anymore. Its all sensationalism and we gobble it up and keep craving more.
    Grit, spit, and a whole lot of duct tape!

  12. #62
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    a bike ride and Jane's Addiction's - standing in the shower - loud.
    it is just so profoundly wrong to have to bury a child.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    The reason for ownership of these type of firearms is simple, its to protect your familiy from the criminals that possess them. A bolt action is no match for a crazed gunman with an AK47... Just sayin
    Ah, yes. The escalating cycle of sales that the gun industry thrives on.

    It is the arms dealer's dream business model: selling arms to both sides of a conflict.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stupendous Man View Post
    A killer like this is hell bent on causing as much devastation as he can, in the shortest amount of time. Do you honestly believe this type of reasoning goes through a killers mind during these attacks? If so, you are as delusional as he is.

    Yet another discussion goes straight to the **** bin. Lost already are the legacy of the victims, because our society would rather talk about the perp, and what caused it, and why, and how he was raised, and how he became a victim, and so on and so on....and we'll renew heated debates on gun control and mental illness....and all the while the families of the victims will fade away in silence. There is no news anymore. Its all sensationalism and we gobble it up and keep craving more.
    Yes, this individual was looking for the weakest victims he could find.
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  15. #65
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    So, to tie guns back into mountain biking somehow. Any of you ever carried a gun while riding deep in the back country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    How many criminals bust into your house with an AK47 (yes, I saw you live in Salinas)? It doesn't happen to me too often.
    Well excuse me for wear I live, we can't all live in "THE CITY" non do we want to. But it is my right to arm myself anyway I see fit. It's also my responsiblity to secure my firearms in a proper manner. As a veteran I've fought to secure these rights for all Americans, regardless of the city they live in.
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by GnarBrahWyo View Post
    So, to tie guns back into mountain biking somehow. Any of you ever carried a gun while riding deep in the back country?
    of course not....

    I don't want to kill a bear...so I carry spray instead. plus it is way lighter.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    of course not....

    I don't want to kill a bear...so I carry spray instead. plus it is way lighter.
    Maybe a carbon fiber gun for weight weenies?

    (before I get a response on how that would never work please know that what I wrote above was a joke =) )

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    Cabela's: Smith & Wesson BODYGUARD® .380 Semiautomatic Pistol

    Only carried while in the back-country alone. Super small and light. 6+1 plus laser. with a ankle hostler is it like it's not even there.

    Quote Originally Posted by GnarBrahWyo View Post
    So, to tie guns back into mountain biking somehow. Any of you ever carried a gun while riding deep in the back country?
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Cabela's: Smith & Wesson BODYGUARD® .380 Semiautomatic Pistol

    Only carried while in the back-country alone. Super small and light. 6+1 plus laser. with a ankle hostler is it like it's not even there.
    why do you carry it when in back country? what are you defending yourself against? serious question

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    what are you defending yourself against? serious question
    Whatever I need to. Say I fell and broke a leg. With other stuff in my pack I would have shelter and dinner, at a random squrrils expense. There is no cell service out there. You are on your own.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I was brought up with guns - lots of many loaded guns (hanging all over the walls) and learned a healthy respect for them as a child. My family is filled with both liberals and conservatives and yep they both own lots of guns (my hippy cousins even have AK47s) - hard for some to believe given prevailing stereotypes, I'd imagine.

    So, I'm very conflicted about gun control. That said, why is it nobody ever commits a crime like this with a bolt action, lever action, hunting shotgun or six shooter? At some point we need to address this issue - what level of weaponry is enough? A poster in Salinas lives in the 'hood and needs to fight criminal with AKs - what happens when that's not enough, does he get a stinger missile?
    I'm fine with you having a different opinion on our constitutional right, the defintion of the second ammendment, or tire tread design, but why do you feel compelled to belittle the town I live in? As I said in a previous post "I've paid dearly for this right" From the HOOD, Thx
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  23. #73
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    Anybody stop to consider the media's influence on this? If we all had to read about it in the newspaper tomorrow, or it only got 20 seconds on the newscast at 6 and 11...would we see as many of these types of shootings? Consider that for a minute...Why do we keep giving these shooters power by giving them fame?. I am not minimizing the impact to the families and their community, but I question how it all may motivate people that are wired to act this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Whatever I need to. Say I fell and broke a leg. With other stuff in my pack I would have shelter and dinner, at a random squrrils expense. There is no cell service out there. You are on your own.
    so killer squirrels????

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Whatever I need to. Say I fell and broke a leg. With other stuff in my pack I would have shelter and dinner, at a random squrrils expense. There is no cell service out there. You are on your own.
    Really so you gonna shoot the squirrel, the drag your sorry ass over to the squirrel, then pick it up.

    You will also of course gather the kindiling and fire wood while slithering around on the ground....

    If it is any sort of a real break femur or a tib/fib you will be immobilized.

    Yeah just ride with a friend or two makes a lot better sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Really so you gonna shoot the squirrel, the drag your sorry ass over to the squirrel, then pick it up.

    You will also of course gather the kindiling and fire wood while slithering around on the ground....

    If it is any sort of a real break femur or a tib/fib you will be immobilized.

    Yeah just ride with a friend or two makes a lot better sense.
    If your life is in danger you will move, reguardless of the injury. I know this from personal experience. I crawled a quarter of a mile to safety.
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    so killer squirrels????
    Congratulations on your ability to read.
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  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Congratulations on your ability to read.

    congratulations on your ability to take a joke

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Really so you gonna shoot the squirrel, the drag your sorry ass over to the squirrel, then pick it up.

    You will also of course gather the kindiling and fire wood while slithering around on the ground....

    If it is any sort of a real break femur or a tib/fib you will be immobilized.

    Yeah just ride with a friend or two makes a lot better sense.
    When your faced with surviving or dieing the human can do amazing things. lets remember the guy that cut his own arm off and walked many miles to survive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    When your faced with surviving or dieing the human can do amazing things. lets remember the guy that cut his own arm off and walked many miles to survive.
    too bad he didn't have a gun, would have been way quicker shooting his arm off rather than cutting it off with his pocket knife

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    too bad he didn't have a gun, would have been way quicker shooting his arm off rather than cutting it off with his pocket knife
    It would have been. Plus he would have better defense against the zombie killer squirrels.

    Saying zombie killer squirrels expresses more of joke then just killer squirrels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I'm fine with you having a different opinion on our constitutional right, the defintion of the second ammendment, or tire tread design, but why do you feel compelled to belittle the town I live in? As I said in a previous post "I've paid dearly for this right" From the HOOD, Thx
    Sorry, you guys deserve better down there - I've actually lived in worse 'hoods. I do think it's a sad world we live in when people such as yourself feel they need military style weapons for defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    It would have been. Plus he would have better defense against the zombie killer squirrels.

    Saying zombie killer squirrels expresses more of joke then just killer squirrels.
    maybe rapid zombie killer squirrels then. let's take it up a notch

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    According to the Mayans, this debate will become a mute point in 4 days!
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    maybe rapid zombie killer squirrels then. let's take it up a notch
    You 1up'ed me. OK, rapid zombie killer squirrels with lasers. Sh1T just got real.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    You 1up'ed me. OK, rapid zombie killer squirrels with lasers. Sh1T just got real.
    apid zombie killer squirrels with lasers from space!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    This kind of attitude is you're (USA's) biggest downfall. Do you realize, no, I mean do you FARKN realize there have been 90 school shootings (1996-2012) in the US? Do you realize because of your faked up rights that 231 children and teachers have lost their lives? Keep that mentality and that number of school shootings is going to rise and rise. A lot of people seem to value the right to bear arms more than their children, time to grow up, and this is coming from someone who works with a gun for a living. It's the non criminals who are the ones farking up, by not securing them. How the fark do children have access to guns?

    I just saw something disturbing on the news, guns sales in the US has gone up considerably since the shooting, lol, so now there are even more guns in circulation, in the hands of unresponsible owners.
    Seriously, I think you need to learn more about the nuances of the discussion going on in the US before you start going off on someone who basically agrees with you

    You are confusing "supporting people's right to own guns" with the NRA / gun industry agenda. While these overlap in some areas, there are NOT the same thing.

    You have let the NRA frame the discussion going on here for you, and are reacting to THEIR narrative.

    IMO, gun ownership rights are perfectly compatible with many sensible, reasonable gun regulation measures to reduce gun violence. The NRA always opposes such measures if there is any chance that it will result in fewer gun sales.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Seriously, I think you need to learn more about the nuances of the discussion going on in the US before you start going off on someone who basically agrees with you

    You are confusing "supporting people's right to own guns" with the NRA / gun industry agenda. While these overlap in some areas, there are NOT the same thing.

    You have let the NRA frame the discussion going on here for you, and are reacting to THEIR narrative.

    IMO, gun ownership rights are perfectly compatible with many sensible, reasonable gun regulation measures to reduce gun violence. The NRA always opposes such measures if there is any chance that it will result in fewer gun sales.
    Oddly the NRA used to support gun laws in the old days including the ban on machine guns enacted during the first part of the 20th century.

    They actually remind of labor unions in someways - both are only focused on self preservation and no longer even care about members or the reality of the world around them. This horrible event does seem to have weakened the grip a bit. We have "NRA grade A" politicians now looking at gun control again.

  39. #89
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    Every single one of you has missed the mark.

    Ban this, ban that. Utter foolishness.

    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.

    Man's arrogance that he can fix all things is the very root of the problem. Only if/when every person finally comes the the understanding that they cannot do it alone, and surrender to God will things ever change. If you follow His rules and His commandments, no one gets hurt.

    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.

  40. #90
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    It should be called a media festival, not a school yard shooting. The media just loves this sort of atrocity happening.

    By the way, 10 schoolgirls aged between 9-13 who were collecting firewood, were killed by a landmine or a roadside bomb in Afghanistan yesterday. They got a 10 second mention on the news.

    Also, a number of children were killed in Kurdistan yesterday in a bomb blast ... but these kids don't matter?

    How dare these other school kids who were murdered interrupt the real news.

    Warren.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    Every single one of you has missed the mark.

    Ban this, ban that. Utter foolishness.

    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.

    Man's arrogance that he can fix all things is the very root of the problem. Only if/when every person finally comes the the understanding that they cannot do it alone, and surrender to God will things ever change. If you follow His rules and His commandments, no one gets hurt.

    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.
    How ironic that you identify "arrogance" as the problem in a post that pushes the arrogance meter far beyond anything posted so far
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  42. #92
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    Thank Ronal Reagan and George Bush Jr. Reagan cut the hell out of mental health care and Bush ended the assault weapon's ban.
    agmtb

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.
    How, exactly, has our nation turned its back on "God"?

    Your God made the boy responsible for this tragedy, right? Made the mental illness he suffered from? That mental illness obviously made it impossible for him to rationalize right from wrong, good vs. evil, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.
    ...except there have been several versions of that book throughout the ages. Translations, revisions, exceptions, redactions...

    There's no way to argue anything about religion. You can't win. You can't lose. If you believe it, it's true. Regardless of any evidence, or lack of evidence. There's absolutely no way of proving or disproving any of it. It's like arguing with someone about their favorite color.
    trust the tread

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  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by abegold View Post
    Thank Ronal Reagan and George Bush Jr. Reagan cut the hell out of mental health care and Bush ended the assault weapon's ban.
    Yes, now it is the Prez fault because the parents didn't get their son the help he needed.
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  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wassa View Post
    It should be called a media festival, not a school yard shooting. The media just loves this sort of atrocity happening.

    By the way, 10 schoolgirls aged between 9-13 who were collecting firewood, were killed by a landmine or a roadside bomb in Afghanistan yesterday. They got a 10 second mention on the news.

    Also, a number of children were killed in Kurdistan yesterday in a bomb blast ... but these kids don't matter?

    How dare these other school kids who were murdered interrupt the real news.

    Warren.
    This are indeed sad and there are lots of other sad events happening daily around the world. But, there is something about an event that happens in your own backyard that is somehow more immediate.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    Every single one of you has missed the mark.

    Ban this, ban that. Utter foolishness.

    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.

    Man's arrogance that he can fix all things is the very root of the problem. Only if/when every person finally comes the the understanding that they cannot do it alone, and surrender to God will things ever change. If you follow His rules and His commandments, no one gets hurt.

    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.
    Are Iran and Afghanistan pretty safe places? They really do defer to "god" in those places. Lots of other secular counties with lower crime then the U.S.

    Which god should govern us, the Pope's god or the Morman's god (that lives on another planet)? Which version of the bible, the original where Jesus was a punk rock trouble maker and married or the catholic version that turned his wife into a whore to belittle women and made the savor into a milk toast martyr? I bet many of the victims were god fearing, why did god take them?

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    Every single one of you has missed the mark.

    Ban this, ban that. Utter foolishness.

    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.

    Man's arrogance that he can fix all things is the very root of the problem. Only if/when every person finally comes the the understanding that they cannot do it alone, and surrender to God will things ever change. If you follow His rules and His commandments, no one gets hurt.

    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.
    it's so awesome that you actually ride a cannondale prophet.

    surprised it took this long for god to make an appearance here, i don't agree with your post one iota, but god bless

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    but sadly, gun ownership and rights is just another form of religion. the believers won't listen to blasphemy denying their god, so ultimately, arguing about it is pointless despite the evidence (multiple school shootings) right in front of people.

    Merry "Christ"mas to you!!!

  49. #99
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    I am a gun owner, but have never really delved deeply into the gun control issue.

    I was taught in law school to apply the facts to the law, and see where that leads you.

    I really have no opinion on the regulation of non-sporting firearms, but the facts just don't support their regulation as an overly statistically meaningful method of protecting human life.

    9000+- total people die from gun shot wounds in an average year in the US.

    40,000 die from alcohol related organic medical problems (no innocent victims).

    Another 40,000 die from alcohol related auto accidents (many innocent victims)

    450,000 die from the use of tobacco products, and 50,000 of them are non-smokers.

    The tobacco industry is a $12 billion a year industry, yet ONE STATE, California, spends $9 billion to treat tobacco related illness....

    So, until stats like this change, I'm just not interested in any discussion about gun control....

    More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.1,2

    Now, if a measure comes to a ballot vote, and the ballot bans:

    Smoking
    Drinking alcohol
    High School & College Sports - especially football
    Fast cars
    Bathtubs
    Stairs
    Assault Weapons
    Onions, Bell Peppers, and Mushroom (ok, this is not really a requirement)

    Then I might vote for it.......

    mudhen

    1.Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Smoking-Attributable Mortality, Years of Potential Life Lost, and Productivity Losses—United States, 2000–2004. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 2008;57(45):1226–8 [accessed 2011 Mar 11].
    2.McGinnis J, Foege WH. Actual Causes of Death in the United States. Journal of American Medical Association 1993;270:2207–12 [cited 2011 Mar 11].
    "Lighten up Francis" Sgt. Hulka

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Seriously, I think you need to learn more about the nuances of the discussion going on in the US before you start going off on someone who basically agrees with you

    You are confusing "supporting people's right to own guns" with the NRA / gun industry agenda. While these overlap in some areas, there are NOT the same thing.

    You have let the NRA frame the discussion going on here for you, and are reacting to THEIR narrative.

    IMO, gun ownership rights are perfectly compatible with many sensible, reasonable gun regulation measures to reduce gun violence. The NRA always opposes such measures if there is any chance that it will result in fewer gun sales.
    I'm all for gun ownership, BUT, and only but if the applicant has a genuine reason for the firearm. Be it for sport, pest control I'm all for it, just how we have it set out in Australia, it's the only way it can work. 40% of guns sales in the US don't require a background check. Criminals getting their hands on the same firepower as the military/law enforcement is a disaster. This kid that did the shootings knew what he was doing, he was even wearing a bullet proof vest, why the fark would his mother need a bullet proof vest?

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