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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I'm all for gun ownership, BUT, and only but if the applicant has a genuine reason for the firearm. Be it for sport, pest control I'm all for it, just how we have it set out in Australia, it's the only way it can work. 40% of guns sales in the US don't require a background check. Criminals getting their hands on the same firepower as the military/law enforcement is a disaster. This kid that did the shootings knew what he was doing, he was even wearing a bullet proof vest, why the fark would his mother need a bullet proof vest?
    Maybe she thought she'd be fighting the government soon when Obama turns power over to the UN (we had a public official in Texas go to the press with this theory). Lots of seriously paranoid people in our country. See we also lack a decent education system, so we keep pumping out a new crop of tinfoil hat wearers each year. Half the country thinks the earth is 6,000 years old.

    All kidding aside, America has a strong gun culture that is hard for outsiders to understand. Guns were once sold in barrels at hardware stores - of course that's before 30 round clips ...

  2. #102
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    For you folks replying that aren't American citizens.....trust me , most all Americans are extremely tired of these senseless , cowardly acts of violence in our country ! I am not gong to reply on the gun control issue but I can assure you that sportsman and hunters alike are very upset......why , because most of them abide by the laws and respect and appreciate the right of gun ownership in our country and see the deterioration of it due to conflict between radical opinions coming from both sides of the court ! Commonsense solutions are what we need without infringing on the rights of every law abiding citizen ! Please refrain on what's best for our country....I've been involved in cowboy action , sporting clays , hunting , and many other target shooting events and these people have fun and are very concerned about keeping it a safe environment ! Thank you !
    " A way to a deep freedom " - Tarja

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERTIGO2 View Post
    Every single one of you has missed the mark.

    Ban this, ban that. Utter foolishness.

    This tragedy and every other senseless act of violence is what happens when a nation turns it's back on God.

    Man's arrogance that he can fix all things is the very root of the problem. Only if/when every person finally comes the the understanding that they cannot do it alone, and surrender to God will things ever change. If you follow His rules and His commandments, no one gets hurt.

    Look it up. There is a cool collection of 66 books on the subject, all between one cover. It goes by a simple name- The Bible.

    Go ahead and tear me up. But this is one argument that you will lose- in the end. Just wait and see.


    BWAHAHAHAHA, pure 24k gold, theres always one in every post, id like to give Virtigo the award for the most ridiculous post in this thread maybe for the whole 2012 mtbr season..
    And how bout the last line, lol, ''but this is one argument you will lose in the end, just wait and see'' is there anything a god botherer doesnt know?
    Thanks for the insight vertigo....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  4. #104
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    TIGMAN, thank you for declining the observations of the rest of the world!

    Here on a MTB forum we have threads about public land managers threatening to stop authorised trail development because naughty rogue builders are out digging in the bush, this thread trying to legitimise weapon one-upmanship (not the point of the OP I know, but it's here) and threads come and go regarding the benefits of US military actions in far flung places where the only justification is profiteering of US businesses involved. In the end there can be no justification for stupidity.

    If you don't start listening to external voices of reason and interest, then the US will progress farther down the ladder of no return. In my lifetime the US has gone from the most respected nation on earth to one of the most dangerous and ridiculous. If we can all see the poison spreading past your borders from the outside, then it must be time to wake up TIGMAN. If only this was a joke instead of a sad reality with no sign of change.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN View Post
    Please refrain on what's best for our country...!
    Well, it's kind of hard to sit back and watch the same mistakes happen over and over again. Nothing is learn't from history, school shooting isn't a new phenomenon, it's been happening for about 250 yrs now, how much more time is needed and how many more children need to be shot before the government wakes up? Like I said, it's hard for the rest of the world to sit back and watch this kind of bs happen time after time after time.
    Tighter gun control will not have any affect on those law abiding citizens, none whatsoever, a lot if not most don't seem to get that part.
    The people it will effect will be those like that shooters mother. No civilian requires an assault rifle, a tool purposely made (for the military) to take out large numbers quickly and efficiently...let alone a school teacher.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-18-2012 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN View Post
    For you folks replying that aren't American citizens.....trust me , most all Americans are extremely tired of these senseless , cowardly acts of violence in our country ! I am not gong to reply on the gun control issue but I can assure you that sportsman and hunters alike are very upset......why , because most of them abide by the laws and respect and appreciate the right of gun ownership in our country and see the deterioration of it due to conflict between radical opinions coming from both sides of the court ! Commonsense solutions are what we need without infringing on the rights of every law abiding citizen ! Please refrain on what's best for our country....I've been involved in cowboy action , sporting clays , hunting , and many other target shooting events and these people have fun and are very concerned about keeping it a safe environment ! Thank you !
    LOL Tigman, 'please refrain on whats best for our country' half your problem is thinking you are too big to listen to anybody from the rest of the world, hows that going for you mate?

    Many of us have a very good understanding of many things in your country, for many years we measured ourselves off you guys, those days are well n truly gone now, but sometimes in life it is good to hear outsiders views that are outside the bubble, i know it might come as a shock to you but some people other than Americans have brains and ideas too.
    Do you think we are so stupid not to realise that most Americans and sportsmen and hunters are sick and tired of the current tragedies, keep your patronising ******** for somebody else.

    Ive had countless neg reps over the past year be-littleing Aussies, from Americans that think the rest of the world is irrellivant and stupid and that America is the only place that counts, its a pity, because this is how your country is seen around the globe by many, as arrogant and above everybody else and that if your not American your opinion is worth nothing.
    the funny thing is is out of all the people i know around the world, on internet sites and from inside our multicultural country here, its only ever Americans that act this way bar Dutch South Africans..
    I love Americans, i know that this is not true for most of you, i have generally been treated with nothing but warmth and hospitality here and i know thats how most of you are, but how bout not letting the rest of your fine county men down mate and wake up and realise that others have opinions and might not be as dumb and ignorant as you think we are.
    cheers mate..
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    TIGMAN, thank you for declining the observations of the rest of the world!

    Here on a MTB forum we have threads about public land managers threatening to stop authorised trail development because naughty rogue builders are out digging in the bush, this thread trying to legitimise weapon one-upmanship (not the point of the OP I know, but it's here) and threads come and go regarding the benefits of US military actions in far flung places where the only justification is profiteering of US businesses involved. In the end there can be no justification for stupidity.

    If you don't start listening to external voices of reason and interest, then the US will progress farther down the ladder of no return. In my lifetime the US has gone from the most respected nation on earth to one of the most dangerous and ridiculous. If we can all see the poison spreading past your borders from the outside, then it must be time to wake up TIGMAN. If only this was a joke instead of a sad reality with no sign of change.
    Well said mate, its guys like you that are willing to share opinions and have an open mind that actually get things done and give your country a good and fair name.
    cheers mate, reps to you brother.
    Last edited by Tone's; 12-18-2012 at 03:08 AM.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  8. #108
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    Well, in true MTBR fashion this turned in to the debate it shouldn't have.

    Tone, I told you that you can't open Pandora's box and then close it. lol

    Well, I will throw my hat in the ring of this useless debate of which there is no real perfect answer. I will start by asking a coupe questions.

    After April 19, 1995 when a crazed lunatic named Timothy McVeigh slaughtered 168 people, did we outlaw fertilizer?

    What about after Sept 11 2001 when a group of terrorists practically brought a nation to it's knees killing thousands of people, did we decommission all air planes?

    Ted Kaczynski was able to build bombs with stuff that can mostly be picked up at any hardware store. Do we ban those products?

    The answer to both questions is "No".

    The reason being is it was not the fertilizer or the airplanes fault.

    The guns did not kill those people and children, they were merely a tools that the killer used. He could have chose many of other things to do what he did, some of which way more destructive then a gun and we would not be sitting here having this conversation.

    I will agree that there is no real purpose for fully automatic assault rifles other than I am sure they can be fun to fire for some people but that is a moot point since they are already banned. However, hand guns do have a purpose and should not be banned. You may say the difference is that a hand guns only purpose is to kill, but I will a disagree. I say it is a tool which only purpose is to protect and unfortunately some people use it to kill.

    If you ban guns, do you think all the law breakers of the world are going to volunteer their guns? I highly doubt it.

    There is an old saying about if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will own guns. This is true.

    In my perfect world, there would be no need for guns as there would be no violence or crime. However, my perfect world does not exist and there are bad people out there that do bad things every day. Guns are not cause of these bad things but unfortunately this day this disturbed young man used one as his means to take the lives of 28 people. It is a sad day to see so many lives over turned in an instant but lets not blame the tool as there could have been many other tools chosen to commit this horrific crime.


    BTW, I do not own a hand gun and don't see myself owning one any time soon.
    I just don't personally feel the need for it but I will defend the right for those who do.
    That being said, I do not have a wife or girl friend living with me, I do not have any children, and I live in a totally safe are where I feel no need to lock my doors and often just leave the keys in the ignition of my car.

    On that note, I will end by saying that my thoughts and prayers go out to families and community that this tragedy affected.

  9. #109
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    There is an answer and it may not have had a chance in the past. "They" say that in Australia it took one mass murder to change the attitude of the country. People sold their guns back to the government and kids stopped thinking of owning a gun. Be clear, kids still play with guns here and probably always will**.

    I grew in up a cowboys and Indians kid. We all had fun and if you didn't like guns you could have a bow and arrow or knife. No whips! There were real whips in our street. Horses too.

    My Dad and all his family had been shooters at one time or another, including WWII. Back then I had a real gun and could walk down my street or through properties with it over my shoulder at age 7. I owned guns into the late 80's and was club target shooting after losing the little hunger I had for hunting in high school.

    I sold my weapons to a professional hunter I got to know when I moved to a new home in Perth, Western Australia. There were no kids or popular morals, but when you see a 7.62mm projectile pass through both sides of 3 inch pipe at 1000 yards (marking targets) and what a 180 grain hollow point bullet does to more wobbly targets and what a load of 12G does to flying critters, it is not a quantum leap to the simple fact that weapons of this type just do not have a place in the suburbs.

    My beautiful Remington 700BDL 308 was one to go. I heard it brought down roos, horses and some camel for the pet food industry and to preserve the land from ferals. Fine that, but leave it in my house with 20 people living within 20m - why?

    I am more intelligent than the US population - not hard; but face facts, until you morons learn how to discriminate the multiple actual invasions on your freedoms from the bullscheis shoved down your political and moral throats, then some loonies are going to worship school killers and all the other nutbags that go overboard reacting to your misguided society, fired by personal and social mental illness - like Tones said.

    Note I am not using this killers name - he does not exist in my mind and he should not be seen, named or the subject of media review. Focus on the evil and you come up with, guess what? - reasons to have assault rifles, wall-mounted rocket launchers and the right to inflict your will on anyone in your way......... Oh, wait, did I say something you were not supposed to hear??????????????

    **About a dozen years ago at my 40th BD party a number of people I had not known for long came along - newish rural location (with beach, ideal climate etc) and so did their kids and friends. During the earlier, feeling-out period, the subject of guns and kids came up. It was very clear we had some of the continually morally outraged at the do. No toy guns, no battle cries, no violence against your sister-types.

    I am absolutely sure 40+ pair of undies were wet from laughter when a conga line of (10?) kids marched down the stairs and out into the adults, our son in the lead, each with one or two toy guns and a steely glint in their eye. They did not join the adults, but went away to plan things.

    Isn't it time to take the reactive child out of public safety? Can you walk down your street, into the bush and have fun with a gun without consequences, Mr and Mrs America? Guess what? It's a new day, so how about showing the rest of the world what a real nation does to create a real example? Or maybe you want to revert to direct organism to organism conflict to prove your democracy via anarchy? Hmm?
    Last edited by Ridnparadise; 12-18-2012 at 04:47 AM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    After April 19, 1995 when a crazed lunatic named Timothy McVeigh slaughtered 168 people, did we outlaw fertilizer?

    What about after Sept 11 2001 when a group of terrorists practically brought a nation to it's knees killing thousands of people, did we decommission all air planes?
    Authorities have good reason to be concerned with fertilizer-based explosives. In one of the most horrific cases of domestic terrorism, Americans Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were convicted of detonating a bomb made with large quantities of ammonium nitrate fertilizer outside a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people.

    Since then, ammonium nitrate fertilizer has become so heavily regulated that many farm supply stores have stopped selling it.
    FBI Letter Warns of Fertilizer Purchases for Explosives - ABC News



    Suspected terrorists can’t fly on planes, but they can buy guns. The feds can track sales of fertilizer, but not semi-automatic rifles.
    If you’re a suspected terrorist, you’ll set off all kinds of alarm bells if you try to buy the precursor materials for a bomb. But if you going on a firearms shopping spree, you’re in the clear, since the government can’t legally maintain a database of gun owners. In other words, “there is no basis to automatically prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives because they appear on the terrorist watchlist,” a 2011 Government Accountability Office report found. (.pdf) Read that again: suspected terrorists can buy all the guns they want.
    5 Steps That Will Curb Gun Violence (And 5 Ways They Will Fail) | Danger Room | Wired.com

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudhen View Post
    I am a gun owner, but have never really delved deeply into the gun control issue.

    I was taught in law school to apply the facts to the law, and see where that leads you.

    I really have no opinion on the regulation of non-sporting firearms, but the facts just don't support their regulation as an overly statistically meaningful method of protecting human life.

    9000+- total people die from gun shot wounds in an average year in the US.

    40,000 die from alcohol related organic medical problems (no innocent victims).

    Another 40,000 die from alcohol related auto accidents (many innocent victims)

    450,000 die from the use of tobacco products, and 50,000 of them are non-smokers.

    The tobacco industry is a $12 billion a year industry, yet ONE STATE, California, spends $9 billion to treat tobacco related illness....

    So, until stats like this change, I'm just not interested in any discussion about gun control....

    More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.1,2

    Now, if a measure comes to a ballot vote, and the ballot bans:

    Smoking
    Drinking alcohol
    High School & College Sports - especially football
    Fast cars
    Bathtubs
    Stairs
    Assault Weapons
    Onions, Bell Peppers, and Mushroom (ok, this is not really a requirement)

    Then I might vote for it.......

    mudhen

    1.Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Smoking-Attributable Mortality, Years of Potential Life Lost, and Productivity Losses—United States, 2000–2004. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 2008;57(45):1226–8 [accessed 2011 Mar 11].
    2.McGinnis J, Foege WH. Actual Causes of Death in the United States. Journal of American Medical Association 1993;270:2207–12 [cited 2011 Mar 11].
    What you failed to mention is thet the people that die from Tobacco and Alcohol and drugs did it to themselves, they are not innocent people getting gunned down at schools and all the rest of your examples are basically accidents barring road deaths..
    These sort of comparisons are ridiculous..
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  12. #112
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    All I have to say is I went to Walmart last night to get a few things and it became quite apparent how messed up this country is. I never go to Walmart but needed to get an inexpensive pocket knife. I goto the sporting goods section and I can't find a single freaking pocket knife. They do how ever have a case full of guns. Hal of them are designed to looks like assault rifles. They are all semi auto .22 but designed to look like something out of call of duty. What purpose do these guns have?

    Well I walk out of Walmart out of total disgust. In part by the guns and lack of pocket knives. But also looking around it seems 90% of the stuff they sell is a bunch of plastic crap that's going to end up in a landfill in less than 180 days. I swear if I can help it I am never setting foot in that place again.

    So Im off to Dicks sporting goods in search of a knife. Good news I found one. Well it wasn't quite so simple. They had them locked up so I had to goto the counter to ask them to come unlock one for me. The same time I made to the counter so did another guy asking to buy a shotgun. No lie this guy made it out of the store with a gun right before I made it out with my new knife.

    Makes you wonder. If our founding fathers had any idea it was going to be like this and there would be arms with the such the potential for distruction I think they would have thought twice. It was a different time then and having the right to bear arms was needed so people could protect their towns etc by forming militias. This was also before modern day police departments. It seems to me that in today's society guns aren't protecting they are infringing on others rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    It's sad we have become a nation consumed with fear and try to legitimacize that fear with the right to have firearms so easily accessable.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well, in true MTBR fashion this turned in to the debate it shouldn't have.

    Tone, I told you that you can't open Pandora's box and then close it. lol

    Well, I will throw my hat in the ring of this useless debate of which there is no real perfect answer. I will start by asking a coupe questions.

    After April 19, 1995 when a crazed lunatic named Timothy McVeigh slaughtered 168 people, did we outlaw fertilizer?

    What about after Sept 11 2001 when a group of terrorists practically brought a nation to it's knees killing thousands of people, did we decommission all air planes?

    Ted Kaczynski was able to build bombs with stuff that can mostly be picked up at any hardware store. Do we ban those products?

    The answer to both questions is "No".

    The reason being is it was not the fertilizer or the airplanes fault.

    The guns did not kill those people and children, they were merely a tools that the killer used. He could have chose many of other things to do what he did, some of which way more destructive then a gun and we would not be sitting here having this conversation.

    I will agree that there is no real purpose for fully automatic assault rifles other than I am sure they can be fun to fire for some people but that is a moot point since they are already banned. However, hand guns do have a purpose and should not be banned. You may say the difference is that a hand guns only purpose is to kill, but I will a disagree. I say it is a tool which only purpose is to protect and unfortunately some people use it to kill.

    If you ban guns, do you think all the law breakers of the world are going to volunteer their guns? I highly doubt it.

    There is an old saying about if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will own guns. This is true.

    In my perfect world, there would be no need for guns as there would be no violence or crime. However, my perfect world does not exist and there are bad people out there that do bad things every day. Guns are not cause of these bad things but unfortunately this day this disturbed young man used one as his means to take the lives of 28 people. It is a sad day to see so many lives over turned in an instant but lets not blame the tool as there could have been many other tools chosen to commit this horrific crime.


    BTW, I do not own a hand gun and don't see myself owning one any time soon.
    I just don't personally feel the need for it but I will defend the right for those who do.
    That being said, I do not have a wife or girl friend living with me, I do not have any children, and I live in a totally safe are where I feel no need to lock my doors and often just leave the keys in the ignition of my car.

    On that note, I will end by saying that my thoughts and prayers go out to families and community that this tragedy affected.
    lol, c'mon kjlued, this is stretching the bow pretty far mate lol

    Jumbo jets flying into buildings by terrorists is a ridiculous comparison, how many times has that happened
    How many times are things getting blown up with fertilizer lol, by the way you need a licence to buy it here, you need to have done a two day chemical course which i have done.
    these are not fair dinkum comparisons mate lol
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    I am more intelligent than the US population - not hard; but face facts, until you morons learn how to discriminate the multiple actual invasions on your freedoms from the bullscheis shoved down your political and moral throats, then some loonies are going to worship school killers and all the other nutbags that go overboard reacting to your misguided society, fired by personal and social mental illness - like Tones said.
    Here's what happens when you write nonsense like that. All the idiots wrap themselves in the flag and pile in. At that point the argument becomes "My country right or wrong" and the people who actually have something to say bale. Then the thread gets binned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    What you failed to mention is thet the people that die from Tobacco and Alcohol and drugs did it to themselves, they are not innocent people getting gunned down at schools and all the rest of your examples are basically accidents barring road deaths..
    These sort of comparisons are ridiculous..
    Not all alcohol deaths are self inflicted. How many innocent people die each year after being hit by drunk drivers? Second hand smoke?
    I don't use Strava. Don't need an application to tell me I am slow because I already know.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Here's what happens when you write nonsense like that. All the idiots wrap themselves in the flag and pile in. At that point the argument becomes "My country right or wrong" and the people who actually have something to say bale. Then the thread gets binned.
    Nonsense does not require a reply

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Not all alcohol deaths are self inflicted. How many innocent people die each year after being hit by drunk drivers? Second hand smoke?
    Of course, but are there rules about drink driving, last time i looked it was a serious offence?
    Are there laws about no smoking in clubs and pubs and public places, there are here? its an offence.
    You see when theres a serious problem most right minded people do something about it.

    Maybe there needs to be some serious laws with firearms, or should it just be a free for all like it already is, hows that going for your country?
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Of course, but are there rules about drink driving, last time i looked it was a serious offence?
    Are there laws about no smoking in clubs and pubs and public places, there are here? its an offence.
    You see when theres a serious problem most right minded people do something about it.

    Maybe there needs to be some serious laws with firearms, or should it just be a free for all like it already is, hows that going for your country?




    We have thousands of "serious laws with firearms", the enforcement of those already existing laws is what is lacking. I mean c'mon, the U.S. Government is still covering up their own breaking of the laws with "Fast and Furious" the gun walking fiasco that put weapons in the hands of Narco Terrorists. I humbly suggest that we have more than enough laws to deal with it, enforcing them is another issue altogether.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    We have thousands of "serious laws with firearms", the enforcement of those already existing laws is what is lacking. I mean c'mon, the U.S. Government is still covering up their own breaking of the laws with "Fast and Furious" the gun walking fiasco that put weapons in the hands of Narco Terrorists. I humbly suggest that we have more than enough laws to deal with it, enforcing them is another issue altogether.
    AZ with all due respect,

    Can you tell me the reasons and purpose of having Automatic and semi automatic assult weapons and handguns in mainstream society are, barring there use with law enforcement.
    We have had one shooting spree here in 30 years, they are banned here and thats the reason we have had one mass shooting in a country full of lunatics.
    These weapons should be banned in any responsible country.

    Please dont tell me that if citizens are armed with them they can avert mass shootings by killing the shooter, as there has only been ONE yes one known case of that senario in your country and that facts from a US professor interviewed for AUS television

    He also stated that while you need to fill out a questionaire to buy a gun in many US states its is not cross checked by the police,thus you can lie and avoid prisicution, guns are basically sold to anybody.

    yes i agree enforcing rules is not easy, but you have to start somewhere, it will take decades to have a real effect, but compared to AUS and Britain and most other advanced countries, your gun rules are non existant AZ
    cheers
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    AZ with all due respect,

    Can you tell me the reasons and purpose of having Automatic and semi automatic assult weapons and handguns in mainstream society are, barring there use with law enforcement.
    We have had one shooting spree here in 30 years, they are banned here and thats the reason we have had one mass shooting in a country full of lunatics.
    These weapons should be banned in any responsible country.

    Please dont tell me that if citizens are armed with them they can avert mass shootings by killing the shooter, as there has only been ONE yes one known case of that senario in your country and that facts from a US professor interviewed for AUS television

    He also stated that while you need to fill out a questionaire to buy a gun in many US states its is not cross checked by the police,thus you can lie and avoid prisicution, guns are basically sold to anybody.

    yes i agree enforcing rules is not easy, but you have to start somewhere, it will take decades to have a real effect, but compared to AUS and Britain and most other advanced countries, your gun rules are non existant AZ
    cheers


    You should probably cross check your info before basing an argument on it. In addition to a questionnaire there is also an F.B.I. background check that must take place when purchasing weapons. So please, stop with the rhetoric, especially rhetoric that is based on info that is incomplete or fabricated. Our rights are protected by our Constitution which by its very design is not easy to subvert. Amending our Constitution is not a simple task, but it does make it more difficult for a tyrannical administration to trample upon our rights. Our Constitution is the foundation of this country and imperfect as it may be it serves us well in protecting our rights. One question, how much did the murder rate fall after the gun buy back in oz? 70%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    You should probably cross check your info before basing an argument on it. In addition to a questionnaire there is also an F.B.I. background check that must take place when purchasing weapons. So please, stop with the rhetoric, especially rhetoric that is based on info that is incomplete or fabricated. Our rights are protected by our Constitution which by its very design is not easy to subvert. Amending our Constitution is not a simple task, but it does make it more difficult for a tyrannical administration to trample upon our rights. Our Constitution is the foundation of this country and imperfect as it may be it serves us well in protecting our rights. One question, how much did the murder rate fall after the gun buy back in oz? 70%?
    mate, you didnt answer my questions above, and your telling me that its a fact that there is an FBI check in every US state? i never stated every state.
    I asked you a simple question about semi and automatic weapons which i though was very fair?
    I stated a fact that there has only been one armed citizen to shoot a shooter on a shooting spree.
    I stated that in 'many' US states background checks are not cross referenced with police as i heard from a US citizen on TV today.

    And can you please point out the Rhetoric and incomplete and fabricated info above, and instead of getting upset how bout explain it to me.

    And to answer your question im not sure how much the murder rate declined here after the gun buy back, i'll have to do some research, but i can tell you we have only had one mass shooting here and none on the mainland since the gun buy back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    mate, you didnt answer my questions above, and your telling me that its a fact that there is an FBI check in every US state? i never stated every state.
    I asked you a simple question about semi and automatic weapons which i though was very fair?
    I stated a fact that there has only been one armed citizen to shoot a shooter on a shooting spree.
    I stated that in 'many' US states background checks are not cross referenced with police as i heard from a US citizen on TV today.

    And can you please point out the Rhetoric and incomplete and fabricated info above, and instead of getting upset how bout explain it to me.

    And to answer your question im not sure how much the murder rate declined here after the gun buy back, i'll have to do some research, but i can tell you we have only had one mass shooting here and none on the mainland since the gun buy back.



    The simple answer is that it is a right guarantied by the 2nd amendment our Constitution.
    Until that is changed it is our inalienable right. I can appreciated that you have a very strong opinion on the subject, but at the end of the day, our Constitution trumps all as it should.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    You should probably cross check your info before basing an argument on it. In addition to a questionnaire there is also an F.B.I. background check that must take place when purchasing weapons. So please, stop with the rhetoric, especially rhetoric that is based on info that is incomplete or fabricated. Our rights are protected by our Constitution which by its very design is not easy to subvert. Amending our Constitution is not a simple task, but it does make it more difficult for a tyrannical administration to trample upon our rights. Our Constitution is the foundation of this country and imperfect as it may be it serves us well in protecting our rights. One question, how much did the murder rate fall after the gun buy back in oz? 70%?
    And the answer to your question.

    Suicide rates by fire arm has dropped 150% since 1996 when the gun buy back scheme happened, all semi and auto guns were banned, handguns were banned many years before this.

    Homicide rates from firearms have dropped from 0.04 per 100k to 0.01 per 100k, so yes your looking at about a 70% reduction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Not all alcohol deaths are self inflicted. How many innocent people die each year after being hit by drunk drivers? Second hand smoke?
    Good point. So why not treat guns the same as alcohol, tobacco and cars.

    Alcohol and tobacco can only be sold by licensed vendors.
    Alcohol and tobacco can not be sold second hand person to person.
    Alcohol and tobacco are heavily taxed.

    In order to drive a car legally you need 3rd party injury insurance.
    In order to drive a car legally you need a license for which you must pass a stringent test.
    In order to drive a car legally it must be registered.

    You'll notice that applying any or all of these simple measures to guns wouldn't infringe even slightly upon your 2nd amendment rights.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    And the answer to your question.

    Suicide rates by fire arm has dropped 150% since 1996 when the gun buy back scheme happened, all semi and auto guns were banned, handguns were banned many years before this.

    Homicide rates from firearms have dropped from 0.04 per 100k to 0.01 per 100k, so yes your looking at about a 70% reduction.



    How much have violence using other weapons gone up? I humbly suggest that the weapon of choice simply shifted from firearms to knives. I do not wish to be drawn into a discussion of the merits of one political system or another, I rather simply wish to point out that our Constitution is the default to any discussion on this matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    How much have violence using other weapons gone up? I humbly suggest that the weapon of choice simply shifted from firearms to knives.
    Your dead right AZ, it has shifted to other methods, but ive been trying to point out that removing semis, autos and semi handguns will stop a lot of the cases of mass carnage in places like schools and the likes, i could be wrong in my opinion but it looks very much like all of these crimes are commited with the weapons above which in my opinion have no place in any country.
    Thats the first and foremost thing ive been refering to when i say the US needs stricter gun laws, stricter meaning banning these guns, after all we are talking about school mass shooting carried out using these weapons.

    Az im actually PRO gun, my father was a professional Taxidermist, one of the best in AUS, and hunter, i grew up with guns and when he died i had possesion of over 30 guns, many that i handed back in 96, because they were semi and automatic.
    Im a licensed gun owner and own guns myself,

    Im not saying im right, its just an opinion, and like arseholes, everybodies got one mate.

    cheers mate
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    How much have violence using other weapons gone up? I humbly suggest that the weapon of choice simply shifted from firearms to knives. I do not wish to be drawn into a discussion of the merits of one political system or another, I rather simply wish to point out that our Constitution is the default to any discussion on this matter.
    Homicide has been on the decline since the mid 90s. People might of shifted to other methods...ie knives, but the death rate is falling. Not as many are getting killed with knives as apposed to guns
    I should state the probable reason for declining death rate caused by knife is because pocket knives are banned in Oz, except for very small non lock back type, basically a keyring knife.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-18-2012 at 08:20 AM.

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    ^ To add some context, the Homicide rate in the U.S. is falling as well in fairness. The human animal will always find a way to exterminate one another no matter the means. The ssue of guns in this country is very complex and a solution is not likely any time soon. As AZ. points out it is a constitutional issue and amending the constitution is no easy task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    ^ To add some context, the Homicide rate in the U.S. is falling as well in fairness. The human animal will always find a way to exterminate one another no matter the means. The ssue of guns in this country is very complex and a solution is not likely any time soon. As AZ. points out it is a constitutional issue and amending the constitution is no easy task.
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used. There are a multitude of measures which can be taken without infringing upon the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    As a small example. You and your family are substantially more likely to die from gunshot if you keep guns in the house. This unfairly increases the cost of life insurance for those who don't. If insurance companies were mandated to take this risk into account when setting premiums the imbalance could be addressed. No amendment needed.
    This doesn't infringe upon your constitutional right to bear arms, it just costs you more. Gun owners constantly talk about the defence of liberty, put a price upon that and see how dedicated they are.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used.
    .
    Exactly The NRA (the gun industry's mouthpiece) has got many people thinking that any limits on their ability to sell any type of gun to any person is the same thing as an outright ban on all guns.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used. There are a multitude of measures which can be taken without infringing upon the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    As a small example. You and your family are substantially more likely to die from gunshot if you keep guns in the house. This unfairly increases the cost of life insurance for those who don't. If insurance companies were mandated to take this risk into account when setting premiums the imbalance could be addressed. No amendment needed.
    This doesn't infringe upon your constitutional right to bear arms, it just costs you more. Gun owners constantly talk about the defence of liberty, put a price upon that and see how dedicated they are.



    The 10 amendment covers that I believe. And I humbly suggest that the price of liberty has already been paid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    The 10 amendment covers that I believe. And I humbly suggest that the price of liberty has already been paid.
    You're probably right about the 10th amendment, at least as interpreted by Scalia. I don't understand the rest of the sentence. Do you mean that the price of liberty has been paid for in dead children?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    You're probably right about the 10th amendment, at least as interpreted by Scalia. I don't understand the rest of the sentence. Do you mean that the price of liberty has been paid for in dead children?



    No, the price of liberty has been paid for by 236 years of sacrifice by others. As I posted earlier, I do not care to enter into a political debate, I am not proclaiming right or wrong, just pointing out what should be obvious and why it makes any action extremely difficult. So, I am bowing out of this discussion, Merry Christmas to all, be safe and respect one another.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    No, the price of liberty has been paid for by 236 years of sacrifice by others.
    No, still not getting it. You're not a dumb bloke AZ, neither am I. Why are you sounding like a talking bumper sticker? If you've a point to make, make it. You must know by now that I'll afford you a reasoned discussion, whether you agree with me or not.

    edit: Nevermind, just seen your amended post.

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    Americans fought a revolution to gain their liberty, and have defended it since then (as well as defended others). What is so hard to understand about our liberty being paid for through the sacrifice of others. This is one of the reasons we defend our liberty so rabidly, it came at a very high price. We may not have a perfect system but its ours and many of us paid a vey high price for it, so please have some respect for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    All kidding aside, America has a strong gun culture that is hard for outsiders to understand. Guns were once sold in barrels at hardware stores - of course that's before 30 round clips ...
    This reflection is important.
    This obsession for the possession of weapons is incomprehensible to many foreigners.
    Then better to pray for the children and their families

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Good point. So why not treat guns the same as alcohol, tobacco and cars.

    Alcohol and tobacco can only be sold by licensed vendors.
    Alcohol and tobacco can not be sold second hand person to person.
    Alcohol and tobacco are heavily taxed.

    In order to drive a car legally you need 3rd party injury insurance.
    In order to drive a car legally you need a license for which you must pass a stringent test.
    In order to drive a car legally it must be registered.

    You'll notice that applying any or all of these simple measures to guns wouldn't infringe even slightly upon your 2nd amendment rights.
    In Canada, they made gun owners register before they banned them..
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    Americans fought a revolution to gain their liberty, and have defended it since then (as well as defended others). What is so hard to understand about our liberty being paid for through the sacrifice of others. This is one of the reasons we defend our liberty so rabidly, it came at a very high price. We may not have a perfect system but its ours and many of us paid a vey high price for it, so please have some respect for that.
    Don't do that. It's a transparent ploy to shut down discussion, and it will probably work. Everybody in the free world has made sacrifices for liberty. And many still under the yoke of authoritarian oppression are still doing so. It's not a peculiarly American thing and to suggest it is shows enormous disrespect to people all around the world who have fought, suffered and died for freedom, and who are still doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    Don't do that. It's a transparent ploy to shut down discussion, and it will probably work. Everybody in the free world has made sacrifices for liberty. And many still under the yoke of authoritarian oppression are still doing so. It's not a peculiarly American thing and to suggest it is shows enormous disrespect to people all around the world who have fought, suffered and died for freedom, and who are still doing so.
    I believe roadie scum was referring to our American liberties with his post. Sure, other nations have varied amounts of liberty from total authoritarian regimes like North Korea to quasi-socialist nations such as Europe. However, Americans are genuine because not only have we fought for our own liberties, we have died for other nations liberties in two World Wars and all around the world.

    Imagine what the world would look like today if we had not gotten involved in World War II? The entirety of Europe would be Nazi Germany.

    The recent conflicts we have gotten into can be questioned whether or not they are legitimate..I have questions on it myself but I don't blame the soldiers but rather the leadership that is sending them over there to fight senseless conflicts so they can continue to bleed our economy dry.

    But without the blood, sweat, and tears of our military and our military forefathers, you and I would not have the right to post opinions on the internet without fear of someone breaking into your door to arrest you if you posted something the government didn't like as in nations that would in this world.
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  40. #140
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    As predicted #114

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    It's only a constitutional issue if you consider gun control to mean banning all guns. This is the big lie which the NRA has so successfully used. There are a multitude of measures which can be taken without infringing upon the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    As a small example. You and your family are substantially more likely to die from gunshot if you keep guns in the house. This unfairly increases the cost of life insurance for those who don't. If insurance companies were mandated to take this risk into account when setting premiums the imbalance could be addressed. No amendment needed.
    This doesn't infringe upon your constitutional right to bear arms, it just costs you more. Gun owners constantly talk about the defence of liberty, put a price upon that and see how dedicated they are.
    It is a Constitutional issue because the second amendment reads,

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The phrase "shall not be infringed" translates just like it says...there shall be no law denying the right of people to keep firearms nor carry them (bear) with you.

    By Constitutional standards, all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Now, according to those in our government who don't like the 2nd amendment, they want us to reason that it says firearms can be regulated but it is there black and white - the founders put firearm regulation off limits to the powers to be.
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  42. #142
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    I see why I don't come here much anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherijumper View Post
    I see why I don't come here much anymore.
    I can understand the sentiment...hot topic political discussions are usually not the most enjoyable experience but I believe the debates are necessary and as long as everyone remains respectable and civil, we can discuss the topic in as much detail as the circumstances allow.
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  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    It is a Constitutional issue because the second amendment reads,

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The phrase "shall not be infringed" translates just like it says...there shall be no law denying the right of people to keep firearms nor carry them (bear) with you.

    By Constitutional standards, all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Now, according to those in our government who don't like the 2nd amendment, they want us to reason that it says firearms can be regulated but it is there black and white - the founders put firearm regulation off limits to the powers to be.
    Well an ammendment can be ammended....or repealed

    Secondly it was an ammendment so the FOUNDERS wern't the authors.

    Third the real world has a way of impressing itself on laws.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    In Canada, they made gun owners register before they banned them..
    Wow

    That is an oversimplification for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    The simple answer is that it is a right guarantied by the 2nd amendment our Constitution.
    Until that is changed it is our inalienable right. I can appreciated that you have a very strong opinion on the subject, but at the end of the day, our Constitution trumps all as it should.
    Yeah inaleinable right until it is repealed.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Yeah inaleinable right until it is repealed.
    Hard to take away this particular freedom as it's the second amendment. What level of arms should we stop at, that's the real question? Do we need 30 round clips? Rocket launchers?

    My great grandpa feed the family with deer meat. When he hunted, he took only one round for the old Winchester - he believed one round was enough and if he couldn't get dinner with that, they deserved not to eat. Now we need military weapons and 30 round clips, I guess ...

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    It is a Constitutional issue because the second amendment reads,

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The phrase "shall not be infringed" translates just like it says...there shall be no law denying the right of people to keep firearms nor carry them (bear) with you.

    By Constitutional standards, all gun control laws are unconstitutional. Now, according to those in our government who don't like the 2nd amendment, they want us to reason that it says firearms can be regulated but it is there black and white - the founders put firearm regulation off limits to the powers to be.
    All of which was written before the days of 30-round magazines, guns capable of firing hundreds of rounds per minute, and a culture that glamorizes violence. Times change. Societies change. Laws and rights need to change as well.

    At some point, the responsibility of doing whatever it takes to keep weapons like that out of the hands of maniacs has to trump the right of an average citizen to own one "just because I can".

    We don't need to ban ALL guns. We can amend the right accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Well an ammendment can be ammended....or repealed

    Secondly it was an ammendment so the FOUNDERS wern't the authors.

    Third the real world has a way of impressing itself on laws.
    The Bill of Rights was introduced by James Madison who is called "The father of the Constitution" in the 1st Congress in 1789.

    Yes, it can be repealed by another amendment like the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment. Good luck doing it because amending the Constitution is not an easy procedure as it was intended by the founders to be an exhaustive procedure.

    But our government won't do it - because it won't pass 3/4 of the state legislatures let alone the House or maybe even the Senate and the huge firestorm it would create so they are sidestepping it via other laws and executive measures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    We can amend the right accordingly.



    I doubt it, the parties in this country are too polarized, no one willing to meet in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    The Bill of Rights was introduced by James Madison who is called "The father of the Constitution" in the 1st Congress in 1789.

    Yes, it can be repealed by another amendment like the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment. Good luck doing it because amending the Constitution is not an easy procedure as it was intended by the founders to be an exhaustive procedure.

    But our government won't do it - because it won't pass 3/4 of the state legislatures let alone the House or maybe even the Senate and the huge firestorm it would create so they are sidestepping it via other laws and executive measures.
    Just had a thought - the 18th amendment started Prohibition which basically was an alcohol ban....didn't work out too well as it gave rise to the gangster mobs and violence as folks had to go to the black market to get booze.... eventually the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment because they realized the booze ban didn't work.

    Now, if they try to repeal the 2nd....what is going to happen? Hmmm???
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  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Just had a thought - the 18th amendment started Prohibition which basically was an alcohol ban....didn't work out too well as it gave rise to the gangster mobs and violence as folks had to go to the black market to get booze.... eventually the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment because they realized the booze ban didn't work.

    Now, if they try to repeal the 2nd....what is going to happen? Hmmm???
    Less mass killings.

    More reasonable society.

    Less twisted laws.

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    Come on does anyone, other than tinfoil hat tea party freaks, seriously believe we'll repeal the 2nd amendment? Guns are in our blood as Americans, but perhaps some commonsense rules make sense. Right now 40 percent of gun sales don't have a background check ... not sure we need 30 round mags either.

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    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    If they ban anything (won't be handguns), all existing guns would be grandfathered in. This slippery slope augment just doesn't fly. The government regulates lots of things including guns right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    What you failed to mention is thet the people that die from Tobacco and Alcohol and drugs did it to themselves, they are not innocent people getting gunned down at schools and all the rest of your examples are basically accidents barring road deaths..
    These sort of comparisons are ridiculous..
    50,000 died from second hand smoke.

    Your reply 'mate'?

    I'd like to see every smoker prosecuted for murder at a 1/50,000 rate of penalty.

    Same for persons that consume alcohol, drive, and kill an innocent bystander.

    Execution would be my choice. By firearm would make me smile, but any method of taking their life would be a fine exchange for taking someone else's life.

    Any reply 'mate'?

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  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    Yeah that is fer sure.

    In the next ten years the US could legalize pot, reduce organized crime to a small fraction of what it is today, and make a nickel.

    With the nickel they could repeal the 2nd and buy up the guns and stockpile them with the National Guards...

    Geez and reduce the military budget...

    And fix the deficit.

    And fix Mexico's organized crime problems....

    Geez and even get all the out of work red necks jobs hand picking organically grown pot.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Yeah that is fer sure.

    In the next ten years the US could legalize pot, reduce organized crime to a small fraction of what it is today, and make a nickel.

    With the nickel they could repeal the 2nd and buy up the guns and stockpile them with the National Guards...

    Geez and reduce the military budget...

    And fix the deficit.

    And fix Mexico's organized crime problems....

    Geez and even get all the out of work red necks jobs hand picking organically grown pot.
    Heheheh! Too right!!!

    I think everyone needs to go read the book I am reading right now: "Beyond Religion" by the Dalai Llama... Vertigo started to scratch the surface by saying that God has the answers... sorry mate, but that may just be a little misguided.
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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    Yeah that is fer sure.

    In the next ten years the US could legalize pot, reduce organized crime to a small fraction of what it is today, and make a nickel.

    With the nickel they could repeal the 2nd and buy up the guns and stockpile them with the National Guards...

    Geez and reduce the military budget...

    And fix the deficit.

    And fix Mexico's organized crime problems....

    Geez and even get all the out of work red necks jobs hand picking organically grown pot.
    Do you understand it takes 3/4 of state legislatures (about 38 states) to ratify an amendment and that is after it passes Congress? Do you think 38 states are going to go along with that? I would have a very hard time thinking so - I would doubt even California would vote for it let alone the Bible belt states.

    As far as Mexico's drug cartel violence - not all their guns came from the US - they get firearms from other nations...AK47's..etc.... In fact, we have learned recently that Bush and Obama sent weapons to Mexico that ended up in the hands of the drug cartels - aka Fast and Furious. No amount of 2nd amendment repeal would have stopped that.

    Our guns are not military grade guns - the Bushmaster .223 the shooter used was not an M4 or an M16. It was a semi-automatic only copy of an M4 - the actual military grade M4 and M16 are select fire (true assault rifles) weapons that can fire semi-auto or fully auto or burst. A bushmaster .223 can only fire semi-auto and is no functionally different than a hunting rifle.
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  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    If they ban anything (won't be handguns), all existing guns would be grandfathered in. This slippery slope augment just doesn't fly. The government regulates lots of things including guns right now.
    You speak directly to my point, "all existing guns would be grandfathered in", so what will be accomplished, other than to appease the constituents of the leftwing lawmakers? You'll need to offer up far more than that to convience me that a ban of any sort will reduce gun violence. Violence of any kind is a "behavioral issue" no mater how is perpetrated, and no amount of regulation will remedy a genetic defect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    A bushmaster .223 can only fire semi-auto and is no functionally different than a hunting rifle.
    I guess if you just generalize it down to the basic fact that it's a rifle that fires a bullet, you're right. There is no functional difference.

    Functionally, how many rounds do you need when hunting? You're not taking down 20-30 deer as quickly as you can pull the trigger. You're firing one, maybe 2 rounds if you're lucky, at a single target. Beyond that, the animal is more than likely spooked and running, and you'll need to reload and start the stalking/waiting game all over again.
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  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    I guess if you just generalize it down to the basic fact that it's a rifle that fires a bullet, you're right. There is no functional difference.

    Functionally, how many rounds do you need when hunting? You're not taking down 20-30 deer as quickly as you can pull the trigger. You're firing one, maybe 2 rounds if you're lucky, at a single target. Beyond that, the animal is more than likely spooked and running, and you'll need to reload and start the stalking/waiting game all over again.
    you are exactly right. why make a bushmaster 223 look exactly like a colt m4?? to make joe average "feel" he's rocking a military grade weapon? the m4 design is purpose built for military work, which strictly speaking is killing people.

    who needs one at home and how can anyone claim it's just a hunting rifle? i've used hunting rifles, they don't take 30 round clips or look like a military gun. if i wanted to buy a gun to "defend" my family, it'd be a pump action shotgun. i have no illusion that my markmanship skills go up in an adrenaline filled situation such as protecting my family. i'd want something that took my crummy aim under pressure into account. the bonus being i could hunt duck and geese with it.

    companies make bushmasters to play into peoples joy of feeling like they are playing with military grade equipment, it suits no hunting purpose. no one is talking outright bans like the nra spouts off about to scare people that their rights are being violated. i'm sure the founding fathers weren't intending that citizens would be owning automatic handguns and 30 round clip guns. plus the fact a lot of the "non-automatic" guns can be converted to full auto after purchase.

    lol, here on mtbr we all claim every time a new thing/fad comes up, that it's just marketing driven like when 29ers and then 650b came out, but when it's the gun industry pushing gun sales we all buy the kool aid and hop on no questions asked. i think the gun industry is a little more profitable than the bike industry. why don't we question their motives a little more?

    here's a quote from a recent article showing semi auto and high capacity guns are hot sellers and stating that the us gun industry is a 3.5 billion dollar industry. i'm sure they're looking out for your 2nd amendment rights, not their bottom line

    Gun sales have thrived throughout the weak economy and gun company stock prices have soared.
    But after the massacre at Sandy Hook in Connecticut, the outlook for the firearms industry is less certain, with momentum building for restrictions on semiautomatic rifles and high capacity magazines.
    "It would remove one of the hottest-selling products from the market place," said Rommel Dionisio, an analyst for Wedbush Securities who covers Smith & Wesson.
    Dionisio estimates the U.S. gun industry has as much as $3.5 billion in annual sales.
    Last edited by qbert2000; 12-18-2012 at 01:38 PM.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    You speak directly to my point, "all existing guns would be grandfathered in", so what will be accomplished, other than to appease the constituents of the leftwing lawmakers? You'll need to offer up far more than that to convience me that a ban of any sort will reduce gun violence. Violence of any kind is a "behavioral issue" no mater how is perpetrated, and no amount of regulation will remedy a genetic defect.
    Most of these shooters are out buying these guys in the weeks or months before they act, so it would stop new availability. The people that have them now are unlikely to ever commit a crime. Of course, this guy got them from his mom, so this approach would've have helped anyway. California has a ban on assault riffles and high capacity clips and we do have less mass shootings now.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    I guess if you just generalize it down to the basic fact that it's a rifle that fires a bullet, you're right. There is no functional difference.

    Functionally, how many rounds do you need when hunting? You're not taking down 20-30 deer as quickly as you can pull the trigger. You're firing one, maybe 2 rounds if you're lucky, at a single target. Beyond that, the animal is more than likely spooked and running, and you'll need to reload and start the stalking/waiting game all over again.
    I fully understand your point that do you need a 30 round clip to hunt? No. If you did, you probably need to work on your accuracy.

    My main point with the accuracy argument was a typical hunting rifle can accomodate 5 - 10 rounds and alot of them are detachable magazines.. It takes about 20 seconds to change mags and the mags are small enough to carry several of them in a coat pocket.

    So, with a semi-automatic AR15 with a 30 round magazine or a semi-automatic Remington 742 with only a 5 round detachable clip that can be changed very quickly and you could carry 6 clips in a coat pocket easily, how much damage/carnage can a nuthead do if he went into a school of unarmed victims?

    In either scenario, you are going to get alot of carnage because no one is going to fight back and if you did - you have about 20 seconds to tackle the shooter who can also buttstroke you with the rifle as well as shoot you with it.

    So basically, banning rifles like AR15's just because they look military - The military doesn't use AR15's, they use M4s and M16s as well as SWAT - isn't going to reduce carnage as said carnage can be equally achieved by traditional rifles because the targets will always in essense be unarmed.
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  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Like this...No school shootings in Israel, because the Israelis actually care about their children, and don't believe it's ok to sacrifice a few dozen to use them as pawns to further a globalist political agenda... unlike our domestic Democrats y'all voted for recently...

    Because Israelis actually take Home Land Security seriously, and not as a comedy skit like our own government does, and as a result they trust their citizens with guns and with their most precious natural resource...their children.

    Israeli Elementary School Teacher on an outing with her class...
    Hard to compare a small homogenized and very well educated country to a diverse country where half the people don't believe in science, evolution, or global warming.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Like this...No school shootings in Israel, because the Israelis actually care about their children, and don't believe it's ok to sacrifice a few dozen to use them as pawns to further a globalist political agenda... unlike our domestic Democrats y'all voted for recently...

    Because Israelis actually take Home Land Security seriously, and not as a comedy skit like our own government does, and as a result they trust their citizens with guns and with their most precious natural resource...their children.

    Israeli Elementary School Teacher on an outing with her class...
    well, in israel all citizens serve military service. so that teacher carrying that gun didn't take a two week course or an extra day course like some have suggested. she would have served 2 years in the military eminently qualifying her to carry that gun. not just having a back ground check

    Regular service
    Main article: Conscription in Israel



    National military service is mandatory for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18, although Arab (but not Druze) citizens are exempted if they so please, and other exceptions may be made on religious, physical or psychological grounds (see Profile 21). The Tal law, which exempts ultra-orthodox Jews from service, has been the subject of several court cases as well as considerable legislative controversy.
    Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two. The IDF women who volunteer for several combat positions often serve for three years, due to the longer period of training. Women in other positions, such as programmers, who also require lengthy training time, may also serve three years. Women in most combat positions are also required to serve in the reserve for several years after they leave regular service.
    Some distinguished recruits are selected to be trained in order to eventually become members of special forces units. Every brigade in the IDF has its own special force branch.
    Career soldiers are paid on average NIS 23,000 a month, fifty times the NIS 460 paid to conscripts.[19]

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    ...and don't believe it's ok to sacrifice a few dozen to use them as pawns to further a globalist political agenda... unlike our domestic Democrats y'all voted for recently...
    Because Republicans aren't willing to sacrifice US (and foreign, for that matter) citizens for globalist agendas of their own? What was Iraq 2003?

    Sorry... veering off topic.
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  69. #169
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    just a thought:

    Why don't Conservative Christian Republicans view controlling/banning the sale of assault weapons through the same moral microscope as they do birth control?
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  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    I have now heard many ask "why the need for simi auto handguns and assult rifles" and a call for the ban of these type of firearms. This "knee jerk" response to a social problem does nothing but cloud the issue to futher a political agenda.
    If such a ban were emplymented, what would become of the millions, yes millions, of these firearms that had been leagally obtained? Does our government, "By the people, for the people", take them? How reminiscent of Germany 1933. And yes you've created a problem greater than the one you were trying to solve.
    The point is that a ban on any type of firearm is a "feel good" fix, I certainly don't have the answers, but irrational gun control laws is not it.
    It doesn't require a ban. It requires a shift in thinking of the average American and a buy back scheme. Weapons bought back are destroyed and taken out of the loop. When Mum and Dad America stop thinking their freedom is being infringed by losing the right to have a wall-mounted rocket launcher long enough to realise that weapons in your home increase your personal as well as public risk, you may be surprised how many make the right decision and walk away from their weapons.

    This is not an argument about the rights of Americans, it is about the reality that guns have no place in the burbs and assault weapons have no place anywhere in society.

    Von Goethe had a couple of ideas for you - on the subject of your freedom
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free"
    and perhaps he was talking about this very issue
    "Nothing is worse than active ignorance"

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    I have more faith in US teachers than that, but in the spirit of compromise, then just give the other 50% concealed carry permits...it only takes one good man with a gun to stop evil in it's tracks.

    Democrats, on the other hand, don't want to confront evil, they want to limit a US citizens response to a homicidal maniac to cowering in a toilet and praying that the maniac runs out of bullets while killing someone else's children before he starts killing yours.

    They feel that 10 of your children is an acceptable death toll, and that is why they want to limit magazines to 10-rounds.

    Diane Feinstein has a Concealed Carry Permit but wants to limit your right to defend yourself...she's got hers and now it's time to start cracking down on everyone else...
    Feinstein is a hypocrite, we all know that - she's not the first elected to be one either.

    So, I guess republicans feel 20 kids here or there is an fair price to maintain their NRA ratings? I know, we need to arm all teachers and students so they can have gun battles with psychos in the halls of our schools. Sounds like a nice learning environment.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    Because Republicans aren't willing to sacrifice US (and foreign, for that matter) citizens for globalist agendas of their own? What was Iraq 2003?

    Sorry... veering off topic.
    He has a point here....Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats. In my humble opinion, both parties are just as equally worthless. Why we as Americans need to think past the slogans and smiles and think past what the media tells us.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Ok..are you a teacher..?

    My math teacher, history, pe, music, drama, english, teachers were all vets... one could pass a law just allowing them to defend our children.

    You do realize that these mass murder incidents have all occurred in designated Gun-Free Zones ...coincidence...I don't think so.

    I am all for extensive training as a requirement. No one should own a gun without training in it's safe use.

    That would be a sensible Gun Control Law, but right now it is a State issue.
    These mass murders also seem to happen in states that don't limit high cap mags or assault rifles. California as the most populated state should really get a lot more, right?

    Having teachers pack heat also sends the message to kids that violence is the way to solve problems. What happens when a kid grabs a Bushmaster from some now fat and out of shape math teacher that hasn't considered working out since the army was forcing him to back in the 1970s? Why do we want to live like they do in the middle east, again?

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfisher1971 View Post
    just a thought:

    Why don't Conservative Christian Republicans view controlling/banning the sale of assault weapons through the same moral microscope as they do birth control?
    Catholics are generally associated with being against birth control. Most Christian denominations have no problem with birth control - only abortion.

    If you read the Bible, Jesus actually tells his disciples to buy a sword.

    Luke 22:36 - "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

    Swords were the "assault weapons" of the period as the military used them as the primary weapon as there were no guns at the time. There is nothing morally wrong for a Christian to own a firearm so an AR15 is not anti-biblical.

    To set the record straight - an assault rifle properly defined is a weapon that is select-fire (safe, semi, full/burst) that is used for military purposes. An AR15 is not an assault rifle as it is not select fire since it does not fire full auto or burst and is not used by the military.
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  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    US schools haven't been good learning environments since about 1974 anyway...
    While India and China pump out engineers, we'll pump out marksmen. Great way to compete in the world economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    These mass murders also seem to happen in states that don't limit high cap mags or assault rifles. California as the most populated state should really get a lot more, right?

    Having teachers pack heat also sends the message to kids that violence is the way to solve problems. What happens when a kid grabs a Bushmaster from some now fat and out of shape math teacher that hasn't considered working out since the army was forcing him to back in the 1970s? Why do we want to live like they do in the middle east, again?
    My state (MO) doesn't have as draconian of gun laws as CT or CA and can't remember the last mass shooting we have had here? Most of the gun violence in MO are in the big cities (KC and STL) and most of it in the bad neighborhoods and most of it involves handguns...most handguns only hold 7 - 15 rounds depending on model and caliber.
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  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    Catholics are generally associated with being against birth control. Most Christian denominations have no problem with birth control - only abortion.

    If you read the Bible, Jesus actually tells his disciples to buy a sword.

    Luke 22:36 - "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

    Swords were the "assault weapons" of the period as the military used them as the primary weapon as there were no guns at the time. There is nothing morally wrong for a Christian to own a firearm so an AR15 is not anti-biblical.

    To set the record straight - an assault rifle properly defined is a weapon that is select-fire (safe, semi, full/burst) that is used for military purposes. An AR15 is not an assault rifle as it is not select fire since it does not fire full auto or burst and is not used by the military.
    Christians long ago forget the pacifist nature of Jesus and made sure the bible was edited accordingly - in the end, when they meet the lord, they may get a big surprise.

    Maybe we should call these AR style or fake ARs? The funny thing is mini 14s would still be legal as they are in California, but of course they look nicer with wood stocks. No body shoots schools up them for some weird reason - perhaps the wood stock?

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    It doesn't require a ban. It requires a shift in thinking of the average American and a buy back scheme. Weapons bought back are destroyed and taken out of the loop. When Mum and Dad America stop thinking their freedom is being infringed by losing the right to have a wall-mounted rocket launcher long enough to realise that weapons in your home increase your personal as well as public risk, you may be surprised how many make the right decision and walk away from their weapons.

    This is not an argument about the rights of Americans, it is about the reality that guns have no place in the burbs and assault weapons have no place anywhere in society.

    Von Goethe had a couple of ideas for you - on the subject of your freedom
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free"
    and perhaps he was talking about this very issue
    "Nothing is worse than active ignorance"
    Your revelence of the poetry, writen by a man who live within a country (Germany) that had no centralist governent, should somehow explain how you dictating to me, which one of my rights is important. You said "When Mum and Dad America stop thinking their freedom is being infringed by losing the right ..."
    I paid dearly for all of our rights, what have you given? it's not negotiable!
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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    I wish I had been teaching there.
    There's a sentiment we can all agree on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    lol, c'mon kjlued, this is stretching the bow pretty far mate lol

    Jumbo jets flying into buildings by terrorists is a ridiculous comparison, how many times has that happened
    How many times are things getting blown up with fertilizer lol, by the way you need a licence to buy it here, you need to have done a two day chemical course which i have done.
    these are not fair dinkum comparisons mate lol
    It isn't a stretch at all, if somebody wants to kill, they will kill.
    We didn't blame the planes in the attacks on Sept 11th nor did we blame the fertilizer in the OK city bombing. So why do we blame the guns if somebody gets shot?
    The gun can not get up, aim itself, and fire a bullet. It takes a person to operate it.
    That same person if they could not get a gun would kill by some other means if they wanted to.

    Yes, the sale of fertilizer is regulated.
    Yes, KNOWN terrorists can not get on airplanes.

    And guess what, the sale of handguns in most (not all) US states is also regulated and has a waiting period. You want additional regulations, fine. Banning is not the answer.

    BTW, guns banned in Australia does not make it safer.

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Australia vs United States

    Although your murder rate may be lower, your overall crime rate victims is 43% higher then the US and your rape victims are double. Not to mention, your nations perception of safety is a lot lower than that of the US.

    So, banning guns obviously is not the perfect answer.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    It isn't a stretch at all, if somebody wants to kill, they will kill.
    We didn't blame the planes in the attacks on Sept 11th nor did we blame the fertilizer in the OK city bombing. So why do we blame the guns if somebody gets shot?
    The gun can not get up, aim itself, and fire a bullet. It takes a person to operate it.
    That same person if they could not get a gun would kill by some other means if they wanted to.

    Yes, the sale of fertilizer is regulated.
    Yes, KNOWN terrorists can not get on airplanes.

    And guess what, the sale of handguns in most (not all) US states is also regulated and has a waiting period. You want additional regulations, fine. Banning is not the answer.

    BTW, guns banned in Australia does not make it safer.

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Australia vs United States

    Although your murder rate may be lower, your overall crime rate victims is 43% higher then the US and your rape victims are double. Not to mention, your nations perception of safety is a lot lower than that of the US.

    So, banning guns obviously is not the perfect answer.
    It was founded by criminals. Just saying.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    It was founded by criminals. Just saying.
    Actually, there were already inhabitants there prior to them being placed there.


    BTW, a large portion of our countries murder rate is criminals killing criminals.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Christians long ago forget the pacifist nature of Jesus and made sure the bible was edited accordingly - in the end, when they meet the lord, they may get a big surprise.

    Maybe we should call these AR style or fake ARs? The funny thing is mini 14s would still be legal as they are in California, but of course they look nicer with wood stocks. No body shoots schools up them for some weird reason - perhaps the wood stock?
    If you are saying the bible was edited to make Jesus appear to be something He was not, then you are saying the Bible is not the inerrant word of God as Christians believe it is. The Bible was written by people but the words were inspired by God - meaning God inspired them what to write. Misquoting God is not something that I would want to be guilty of.

    Jesus's pacifism doesn't mean Jesus was a pushover victim - when Jesus came to earth the first time - he came to lay down his life for mankind's redemption from sin and that required going to the cross to be crucified. He came as a lamb.

    Jesus made a whip and ran the money changers out of the temple. Hardly a pacifist action one would say.

    In the Old Testament, story after story of how God judged nations and people - Sodom and Gomorrah - God literally stoned those two cities into oblivion. Hardly a pacifist action.

    In the second coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation, Christ comes back to earth and smites all the armies gathered against Him. Hardly a pacifist action. The second time Christ comes back, He isn't coming as a lamb but a lion.

    Jesus didn't teach us to go around being violent so I am not trying to say Christians should be out looking to fight at every waking moment but that Jesus didn't teach us to be pushover victims to those who wish to prey upon us in my opinion.
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    The big problem America has with guns isn't the guns but the fact that half of you are gun nuts. What 300 million guns down there?

    The gun culture is the problem. Up here in Canada we have fairly restrictive guns laws but it is still very easy to get guns. Most people up here just don't bother. Owning a gun is primarily a rural thing, which does make semse. Others just don't bother.

    Just so you know, lots of my buddies had guns when I was a kid. These guys were macho types that thought owning guns was cool, not so different than many down south.

    I held a Ruger Mini 14 once, when a coworker showed it to us after work one day. About 3 weeks later he smoked a teacher he was sleeping with. He had purchased the 30 round clip that I said he needed to make the gun look cool. He used up about half the magazine on the guy.

    We all kind of knew the shooter was a nut job; I'm just glad he didn't shoot me.

    Just last summer I was at a firing range firing a friend's 9mm Glock, 357, and 22 pistols. It was fun, but so what. I don't get it. I can fire a gun, wow!

    Your culture needs to change. It isn't about gun control, it is about attitude. Way too many people think a gun is a tool to solve problems.

    Most of us here in the GWN would wonder why anyone would want to own a gun. What for?
    That is what the police are for.

    Do any of you wonder why our muder rate is so low? I don't.

    50 odd muders in Toronto last year, a city of 3 million. Most of those muders were gangland, very likely using smuggled guns from America.

    Chicago has roughly the same population yet has 600 murders. How can gun advocates fail to acknowledge this?

    BTW, my heart goes out to all the loved ones of those poor children and teachers. They will never be the same again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    The big problem America has with guns isn't the guns but the fact that half of you are gun nuts. What 300 million guns down there?

    The gun culture is the problem. Up here in Canada we have fairly restrictive guns laws but it is still very easy to get guns. Most people up here just don't bother. Owning a gun is primarily a rural thing, which does make semse. Others just don't bother.

    Just so you know, lots of my buddies had guns when I was a kid. These guys were macho types that thought owning guns was cool, not so different than many down south.

    I held a Ruger Mini 14 once, when a coworker showed it to us after work one day. About 3 weeks later he smoked a teacher he was sleeping with. He had purchased the 30 round clip that I said he needed to make the gun look cool. He used up about half the magazine on the guy.

    We all kind of knew the shooter was a nut job; I'm just glad he didn't shoot me.

    Just last summer I was at a firing range firing a friend's 9mm Glock, 357, and 22 pistols. It was fun, but so what. I don't get it. I can fire a gun, wow!

    Your culture needs to change. It isn't about gun control, it is about attitude. Way too many people think a gun is a tool to solve problems.

    Most of us here in the GWN would wonder why anyone would want to own a gun. What for?
    That is what the police are for.

    Do any of you wonder why our muder rate is so low? I don't.

    50 odd muders in Toronto last year, a city of 3 million. Most of those muders were gangland, very likely using smuggled guns from America.

    Chicago has roughly the same population yet has 600 murders. How can gun advocates fail to acknowledge this?

    BTW, my heart goes out to all the loved ones of those poor children and teachers. They will never be the same again.

    Drew



    The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that law enforcement agencies job is not to protect us, there is no reasonable expectation that they would be able to. So how can one expect as you say to leave it to the police?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    If you are saying the bible was edited to make Jesus appear to be something He was not, then you are saying the Bible is not the inerrant word of God as Christians believe it is. The Bible was written by people but the words were inspired by God - meaning God inspired them what to write. Misquoting God is not something that I would want to be guilty of.

    Jesus's pacifism doesn't mean Jesus was a pushover victim - when Jesus came to earth the first time - he came to lay down his life for mankind's redemption from sin and that required going to the cross to be crucified. He came as a lamb.

    Jesus made a whip and ran the money changers out of the temple. Hardly a pacifist action one would say.

    In the Old Testament, story after story of how God judged nations and people - Sodom and Gomorrah - God literally stoned those two cities into oblivion. Hardly a pacifist action.

    In the second coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation, Christ comes back to earth and smites all the armies gathered against Him. Hardly a pacifist action. The second time Christ comes back, He isn't coming as a lamb but a lion.

    Jesus didn't teach us to go around being violent so I am not trying to say Christians should be out looking to fight at every waking moment but that Jesus didn't teach us to be pushover victims to those who wish to prey upon us in my opinion.
    The bible is a collection of books that were cherry picked by the catholic church - many other books were left out. Some were written by, gasp, even women.

    One problem in believing the world will end is there's no good reason to fix it or preserve it in anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Strongarm View Post
    The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that law enforcement agencies job is not to protect us, there is no reasonable expectation that they would be able to. So how can one expect as you say to leave it to the police?
    Obviously because for 99.9% of Canadians the police do a fine job.

    I would own a gun if I lived in the bush because that makes sense, since the cops would be a long time getting there to help.

    Living in the city, crime where a gun or even a knife is used is rare. For the most part muggings are swarm type events where a youth will have their stuff taken by 4 or 5 punks. Most of the time nothing more than fist are involved.

    Violence is primarily a young guy thing, in your culture and mine. However, up here most often this stuff is settled by fists. It is usually only in the big cities where swords, machetes, knives, bats and guns are used, and then again in a gang/criminal situation.

    Basically no one in the smaller cities is ever expecting to be shot in an altercation since almost no one carries around handguns. It is highly illegal do so, so the only people carrying them are gang members, and they only carry when there is 'work' to be done.

    Drew
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Obviously because for 99.9% of Canadians the police do a fine job.
    Orly?

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Canada vs United States

    Again, murder rate is lower but crime rate is not.


    I find it funny though how non Americans have such a grand insight on "the problem with Americans".

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    First off, I consider myself a pretty strong Christian. I was born into a Christian faith, sent to private Christian schools, walked away from the church for a period time, studied other religions of the world and then came back to Christian church.

    However, none of that matters as this tragedy has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
    Yes, if everyone in the world followed Christian teachings we would not have to worry about murder or any crime for that matter. However, same goes for if everyone followed the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism,
    and most other religions of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    The bible is a collection of books that were cherry picked by the catholic church - many other books were left out. Some were written by, gasp, even women.

    One problem in believing the world will end is there's no good reason to fix it or preserve it in anyway.
    Love the conspiracy theory of how books were left out.

    First off, you are correct the bible is a collection of books (and letters).
    However, what you fail to understand is that none of them were written with the intention of making a bible. Therefore your conspiracy theory of how the Vatican has omitted books is already blown out of the water. Yes, there were lots more additional letters and books written 2000 years ago about Christ which probably are numbering in the thousands. So if the Vatican didn't "cherry pick" what went in the book, the bible wouldn't be a book, it would be a library.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Orly?

    NationMaster - Crime stats: Canada vs United States

    Again, murder rate is lower but crime rate is not.


    I find it funny though how non Americans have such a grand insight on "the problem with Americans".
    Why is it funny? It is kind of sad that a comparable city has 10 times the murder rate than ours.

    The stats aren't really much of an insight.

    Many of your own citizens beleive exactly the same things I do about guns and gun ownership.

    If it's not a problem with guns or a gun culture how do you explain it?

    As for crime rates, so what? Ours is about the same as yours with the exception of all the murders.

    I'd call that a success, wouldn't you?

    Drew
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    First off, I consider myself a pretty strong Christian. I was born into a Christian faith, sent to private Christian schools, walked away from the church for a period time, studied other religions of the world and then came back to Christian church.

    However, none of that matters as this tragedy has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
    Yes, if everyone in the world followed Christian teachings we would not have to worry about murder or any crime for that matter. However, same goes for if everyone followed the teachings of Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism,
    and most other religions of the world.



    Love the conspiracy theory of how books were left out.

    First off, you are correct the bible is a collection of books (and letters).
    However, what you fail to understand is that none of them were written with the intention of making a bible. Therefore your conspiracy theory of how the Vatican has omitted books is already blown out of the water. Yes, there were lots more additional letters and books written 2000 years ago about Christ which probably are numbering in the thousands. So if the Vatican didn't "cherry pick" what went in the book, the bible wouldn't be a book, it would be a library.
    Not a theory, it's fact. Yes, it would be a library with a lot more insight. I'd like to see the book written by Jesus' wife.

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    Double the rape victims a success?

    Maybe if some of those women would have been armed, they wouldn't have been victims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Why is it funny? It is kind of sad that a comparable city has 10 times the murder rate than ours.

    The stats aren't really much of an insight.

    Many of your own citizens beleive exactly the same things I do about guns and gun ownership.

    If it's not a problem with guns or a gun culture how do you explain it?

    As for crime rates, so what? Ours is about the same as yours with the exception of all the murders.

    I'd call that a success, wouldn't you?

    Drew
    Part of our lingering gun culture is because we fought for our freedom. You guys thought the King was cool and collaborated with the oppressors ... then later we've been obliged to save the world repeatedly ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Not a theory, it's fact. Yes, it would be a library with a lot more insight. I'd like to see the book written by Jesus' wife.
    Yes, I did not deny that many more books and letters were written during that time about Jesus. Neither does the Vatican deny it. However, the idea of some grand conspiracy is a theory and not fact. Maybe there is a conspiracy but their is no proof of it so therefore it is a theory by definition. Now if you can offer some proof let me know.

    And why do you want to see the book that this so called wife of Jesus wrote? Do you think you could translate it? Maybe he was married, there is evidence that supports that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. However there is still no known proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Yes, I did not deny that many more books and letters were written during that time about Jesus. Neither does the Vatican deny it. However, the idea of some grand conspiracy is a theory and not fact. Maybe there is a conspiracy but their is no proof of it so therefore it is a theory by definition. Now if you can offer some proof let me know.

    And why do you want to see the book that this so called wife of Jesus wrote? Do you think you could translate it? Maybe he was married, there is evidence that supports that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. However there is still no known proof.
    or any proof that jesus is anything more than just a man. where is the proof he was the son of god?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Double the rape victims a success?

    Maybe if some of those women would have been armed, they wouldn't have been victims.
    Come on, you're cherry picking.

    Rape here is double yours.

    US murder by firearm is 64 times ours.

    Maybe if you had tougher gun laws you could get that rate to only double instead.

    I read all the stats you linked.

    Like I said, aside from gun crime our countries are pretty much even.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Part of our lingering gun culture is because we fought for our freedom. You guys thought the King was cool and collaborated with the oppressors ... then later we've been obliged to save the world repeatedly ...
    Well, it could easily be argued that a lot of your foreign intervention was based on economic self interest.

    Save the world repeatedly?

    The only wars that come to mind that were actually crucial to the west's freedom were the 1st and 2nd world wars.

    Everything else was a bit of a pissing match between the US and the USSR.

    For instance I don't really think Europe or Canada, or the US for that matter were endangered by the North Vietnamese over running the south.

    They did in fact over run it, and we are still fine aren't we?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Come on, you're cherry picking.

    Rape here is double yours.

    US murder by firearm is 64 times ours.

    Maybe if you had tougher gun laws you could get that rate to only double instead.

    I read all the stats you linked.

    Like I said, aside from gun crime our countries are pretty much even.
    I read them all too

    BTW, the stretch is not as bad as it seems when you consider the population of the United states is almost 10x as much. Which means are rate per is not 64x higher.

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    What OldJackpine said is the most sensible thing I've heard yet from a gun owner. I've talked to a few other hunters that seem to share these ideas. I am not a gun owner or a hunter, but I totally understand and respect the sport of hunting.

    I think there are hunters and then there are "gun-lovers". The gun-lovers may not even be hunters. I worked with a guy that had MANY firearms. He was not a hunter, but was convinced that there were all sorts of gov't conspiracies and that one day he would NEED those weapons. Is this a common mentality of gun-lovers? Why would anyone other than military and swat teams need automatic weapons? I just don't get it. They are desigend for the sole purpose of killing as many people as possible in a short amount of time. Just what the CT SOB did!! Do they honestly think that they WILL NEED them at some point? I also wonder if people that buy automatic weapons have some sort of obsession with death or like to feel powerful by owning such a weapon. I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just rying to figure out why a civilian would want or feel the need for an automatic weapon. I would never want an instrument of death like that in my home. Although I do totally support, say a handgun in the home for protection.

    And those that spout the 2nd amendment. Wasn't that wrtitten when muskets were being used where it took a minute or more to reload and had no sort of accuracy? Also, I believe it was written atleast partially so civilians could protect themselves from British forces . Did our forefathers envisionfuture school shootings by madmen? I doubt it.

    It is true that all the regulation in the world won't stop a madman from killing, but it might make it harder for them to succeed. It's easier to stop someone with a knife than it is to stop someone with an AK47.

    This whole tragedy has made me feel sick, like 9/11. I can tell you that I am looking at little kids differently now and really seeing the beauty that most of us are born with. my kids are only 8 & 10, and they still have that innocense of youth. I just don't understand why someone would want to destroy that.

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