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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I expect that kind of stuff from a 10 yr old.
    What you're talking would of made sense 50 yrs ago and beyond, where wars were won on manpower. In todays society it's automated electronic warfare, lets not forget nuclear weapons, chemical/biological weapons. Time to let go of the 1900s.
    What I was talking about was the reason Japan never invaded the mainland US - because of all the gun owning citizens who could have repelled them. Do you wonder why Switzerland was never invaded by Nazi Germany? The same reason.

    In 1990, we sent one half million troops to the Gulf War when we had automated electronic warfare, nuclear weapons, NBC weapons. In the 2000's we had several hundred thousand troops in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

    And what is up with the "I expect that kind of stuff from a 10 year old" comment? The last time I checked, 10 year olds would be ones expected to make snarly, snide comments when they don't like what they hear.
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  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    along with the miles of open water between countries
    Not to mention that the Japanese military was inadequate even to defend its own country against the US military, which was fighting on multiple fronts. The idea that they could ever have mounted an invasion of mainland America is so fanciful that it beggars belief.
    Calling this the argument of a 10 year old insults 10 year olds.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    along with the miles of open water between countries
    Had Japan been more successful at the Pearl Harbor attack or at Midway in taking out our carrier fleet, they could have massed an invasion of the continental US - the ocean would have been a logistical challenge but with a highly weakened Pacific fleet, the US would have been hard pressed to stop them from reaching the West coast.

    Japan would not necessarily have to go to the western US, they could have focused on Alaska more - established a land presence and then worked downwards to Washington. They would only have to logistically go from Japan to Alaska a shorter distance. From Alaska, they could use the local resources to sustain themselves for the most part as they marched downwards.

    Or Japan could have went to Mexico and worked upwards - the key thing weakening the US Navy to where it wasn't an obstacle to shipping.
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  4. #254
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    Hahahahaha. Now it's the Swiss scaring off the Nazis.
    This just keeps getting better.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    What I was talking about was the reason Japan never invaded the mainland US - because of all the gun owning citizens who could have repelled them. Do you wonder why Switzerland was never invaded by Nazi Germany? The same reason.
    Do you seriously think about what you're typing?
    Do you seriously think an armed civilian is going to be a match for a solider? Someone who is trained in warfare, while you..... aren't? Why not just arm civilians and do away with the army, airforce and navy.
    I'm assuming you presume that when an army invades, they invade in small numbers.
    Last edited by SV11; 12-19-2012 at 01:00 PM.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    What I was talking about was the reason Japan never invaded the mainland US - because of all the gun owning citizens who could have repelled them. Do you wonder why Switzerland was never invaded by Nazi Germany? The same reason.

    In 1990, we sent one half million troops to the Gulf War when we had automated electronic warfare, nuclear weapons, NBC weapons. In the 2000's we had several hundred thousand troops in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

    And what is up with the "I expect that kind of stuff from a 10 year old" comment? The last time I checked, 10 year olds would be ones expected to make snarly, snide comments when they don't like what they hear.
    Of course the Swiss were also the Nazi's bankers and they had a habit of forgetting Jewish account numbers if the account holder didn't make their way out of a death camp.

    Instead of sending that 500k troops, why didn't we just send a few out of shape NRA member with some ugly Walmart camo - hey, they could have driven themselves there in their jacked up trucks, right?

    We need a strong military - is anyone disputing that? The real question is what can we do to prevent mass murder of Americans by other Americans?

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    I would do my best as a CCW holder to defend all innocent lives. If I saw a stranger being held up at gunpoint across the street, you darn right I would point my gun at the robber and tell him to hit the floor and put him under citizens arrest until the police showed up. If the robber attempted to point the gun at me, he would be raising daisies.

    Would I go to jail? Possibly, depending on where I was at but you know what, sometimes the right thing isn't the easiest thing to do. Our founding fathers literally risked their necks to create this nation - had they lost they would have been hanged as traitors...they took a very deadly risk in the Revolution.
    have you ever shot at a human being? been in an armed confrontation?

    trained police officers have a miserable shooting percentage in live fire confrontations. it's not a video game or target practice or a movie.

    adrenaline and fear play a huge part in armed confrontations and the average citizen has zero training in that. thinking you's have the perpetrator pushing daisies is beyond arrogant, it's a downright dangerous attitude to have.

    what if in your senario you describe, the guy with the gun was another concerned citizen making a citizens arrest? from across the street you could recognize that and not pull your gun in that situation? what armed conflict training do you possess? how desparate are you to be a "hero"?

    here's how well trained police did in the empire state shooting with 2 to one odds.

    Nine pedestrians suffered bullet or fragment wounds in the hail of gunfire, all from shots fired by police, Kelly said. Three passers-by sustained direct gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments, Kelly said.
    One officer shot nine rounds and the other shot seven.


    i'm sure you ior any other citizen could do better, at least in your imagination anyways

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Do you seriously think about what you're typing?
    Do you seriously think an armed civilian is going to be a match for a solider? Someone who is trained in warfare, while you..... aren't? Why not just arm civilians and do away with the army, airforce and navy.
    I'm assuming you presume that when an army invades, they invade in small numbers.
    BTW - I am a Desert Storm Army veteran so I do have combat training.

    Not every soldier is an infantryman, majority of them have occupational specialities in mechanics, aviation, medical, engineer, etc. which they only get a smaller portion of actual infantry oriented training versus the infantryman who spends all their time in infantry related training. Usually, the infantry is comprised of recruits who scored very low on the ASVAB (apptitude test you take when you enlist) or those who want to do that job because they want the excitement of being a combat infantryman.

    You may think the armed civilian American may just be redneck, potbelly bubba's who are only good at shooting stop signs on country roads and such but alot of civilians have lived their entire lives with firearms and around firearms and know how to use them very efficiently.

    To think that an armed citizenry is no match for trained solders, I guess you could have told that to the Revolutionaries that just happened to beat the British army that just happened to be the best army in the world at the time.
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  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    What I was talking about was the reason Japan never invaded the mainland US - because of all the gun owning citizens who could have repelled them.
    Except that's not the reason. That's like saying the reason you didn't sleep with Angelina Jolie was because she was with Brad Pitt.

    Do you wonder why Switzerland was never invaded by Nazi Germany?
    No, because the reason is common knowledge: Switzerland was neutral, and they would have joined the allies if attacked.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Except that's not the reason. That's like saying the reason you didn't sleep with Angelina Jolie was because she was with Brad Pitt.


    No, because the reason is common knowledge: Switzerland was neutral, and they would have joined the allies if attacked.
    Everyone knows their bankers helped the Nazi's. The main reason their weren't invaded off course was their natual barriers.

    All this talk is stupid anyway, what exactily does it have to do with preventing the mass murder of American school children, again?

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    have you ever shot at a human being? been in an armed confrontation?

    trained police officers have a miserable shooting percentage in live fire confrontations. it's not a video game or target practice or a movie.

    adrenaline and fear play a huge part in armed confrontations and the average citizen has zero training in that. thinking you's have the perpetrator pushing daisies is beyond arrogant, it's a downright dangerous attitude to have.

    what if in your senario you describe, the guy with the gun was another concerned citizen making a citizens arrest? from across the street you could recognize that and not pull your gun in that situation? what armed conflict training do you possess? how desparate are you to be a "hero"?

    here's how well trained police did in the empire state shooting with 2 to one odds.

    Nine pedestrians suffered bullet or fragment wounds in the hail of gunfire, all from shots fired by police, Kelly said. Three passers-by sustained direct gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments, Kelly said.
    One officer shot nine rounds and the other shot seven.


    i'm sure you ior any other citizen could do better, at least in your imagination anyways
    No I have never been in an armed confrontation and pray I never am in one. Not something I would desire to be involved in.

    My brother is a police officer and he can tell you straight up - it takes about 4 - 6 minutes minimum from the time they get the call until they get on scene. Tell me how much damage can be done in that amount of time?

    And training yourself to be a defenseless victim isn't dangerous? I know this may not be popular of a statement but visualize the entire school last Friday filled with teachers, staff, and little kids all down in the fetal position defenseless as this monster shot them at will.. That is what the staff and kids are taught to do in this situation by the powers to be - lay there and be shot. To me that is more dangerous of a mindset than being prepared to defend yourself.

    I would rather go out knowing I had the chance to defend myself than going out a defenseless sheep.
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  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    BTW - I am a Desert Storm Army veteran so I do have combat training.

    Not every soldier is an infantryman, majority of them have occupational specialities in mechanics, aviation, medical, engineer, etc. which they only get a smaller portion of actual infantry oriented training versus the infantryman who spends all their time in infantry related training. Usually, the infantry is comprised of recruits who scored very low on the ASVAB (apptitude test you take when you enlist) or those who want to do that job because they want the excitement of being a combat infantryman.

    You may think the armed civilian American may just be redneck, potbelly bubba's who are only good at shooting stop signs on country roads and such but alot of civilians have lived their entire lives with firearms and around firearms and know how to use them very efficiently.

    To think that an armed citizenry is no match for trained solders, I guess you could have told that to the Revolutionaries that just happened to beat the British army that just happened to be the best army in the world at the time.
    Ok, my mistake, you might have training, but you can't speak on behalf of citizens. I will continue to say everyday of the week that a civilian is no match for a soldier.
    The attitude you possess is suicidal, you're not thinking realistically. Living with firearms does not make you an elite soldier or a super hero.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Ok, my mistake, you might have training, but you can't speak on behalf of citizens. I will continue to say everyday of the week that a civilian is no match for a soldier.
    The attitude you possess is suicidal, you're not thinking realistically. Living with firearms does not make you an elite soldier or a super hero.
    Obviously, as seen in Syria.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    The attitude you possess is suicidal, you're not thinking realistically. Living with firearms does not make you an elite soldier or a super hero.
    yet I get called a selfish coward for sharing that mentality while being a gun owner

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Ok, my mistake, you might have training, but you can't speak on behalf of citizens. I will continue to say everyday of the week that a civilian is no match for a soldier.
    The attitude you possess is suicidal, you're not thinking realistically. Living with firearms does not make you an elite soldier or a super hero.
    You are right, living with firearms doesn't make you an elite soldier or hero - most civilian gun owners don't own guns to become Rambo. Wasn't trying to make that connection. Also, not trying to downplay the skill of the soldier. But soldiers aren't invincible - heck look overseas where we are still embattled with a group of people still living in the 9th century.

    My attitude - I happen to believe in God, The Constitution, and the principles of the founding fathers of the United States.

    Benjamin Franklin said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    So, now we have our government telling us we need to ban certain firearms because they happen to look "bad" even though they don't function any different than any other semiautomatic firearm so we can be safe from the bad guys. Even in the gun control crowd, there is varying amounts of what they want to ban or take - some just want to ban "assault rifles" - some want handguns --- some want everything.

    I don't know about you - I believe our liberty came at too high a price to just lay down to a government who cannot be trusted for the false hope of safety.
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  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawson Raider View Post
    You are right, living with firearms doesn't make you an elite soldier or hero - most civilian gun owners don't own guns to become Rambo. Wasn't trying to make that connection. Also, not trying to downplay the skill of the soldier. But soldiers aren't invincible - heck look overseas where we are still embattled with a group of people still living in the 9th century.

    My attitude - I happen to believe in God, The Constitution, and the principles of the founding fathers of the United States.

    Benjamin Franklin said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    So, now we have our government telling us we need to ban certain firearms because they happen to look "bad" even though they don't function any different than any other semiautomatic firearm so we can be safe from the bad guys. Even in the gun control crowd, there is varying amounts of what they want to ban or take - some just want to ban "assault rifles" - some want handguns --- some want everything.

    I don't know about you - I believe our liberty came at too high a price to just lay down to a government who cannot be trusted for the false hope of safety.
    Do you think firearms should have any regulations at all? Is there any type of limits you'd support? How about background checks, are those acceptable?

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    We have thousands of "serious laws with firearms", the enforcement of those already existing laws is what is lacking. I mean c'mon, the U.S. Government is still covering up their own breaking of the laws with "Fast and Furious" the gun walking fiasco that put weapons in the hands of Narco Terrorists. I humbly suggest that we have more than enough laws to deal with it, enforcing them is another issue altogether.
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  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan The VW Tech View Post
    yet I get called a selfish coward for sharing that mentality while being a gun owner
    i don't think you are a coward but i do wonder why so many feel the "need" to carry a firearm as protection. where do you live that you feel that unsafe without a concealed weapon on you? how bad is the crime in your area? i've walked the streets of toronto at night unarmed and never felt i was unsafe without a weapon and it is a city of 3 million people. are there places in the city i avoid? sure, but i'd still avoid them even if i had a gun.

    it seems that people who carry guns live in a state of fear. or worry that they need weapons in their home to protect against intruders. is crime that bad in your area? my house has never been broken into and i do not feel vulnerable in it. having a gun in a false sense of security and no guarantee that if something happens it will save me or my loved ones. plus it leaves them at risk if they are stored improperly as i have 4 young children.

    guns are a false sense of security imho, but it is just an opinion and others are free to decide. i just think people put too much stock in their skill to use them adequately in a real life and death situation.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    ... fellow MTBers ...
    Is that a joke? You've posted 7 times and they've all been in this thread. You joined specifically to get into this argument. Or you're a sock puppet.

  20. #270
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    Ok, problem solved. We just need a lot more guns.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    i don't think you are a coward but i do wonder why so many feel the "need" to carry a firearm as protection. where do you live that you feel that unsafe without a concealed weapon on you? how bad is the crime in your area? i've walked the streets of toronto at night unarmed and never felt i was unsafe without a weapon and it is a city of 3 million people. are there places in the city i avoid? sure, but i'd still avoid them even if i had a gun.

    it seems that people who carry guns live in a state of fear. or worry that they need weapons in their home to protect against intruders. is crime that bad in your area? my house has never been broken into and i do not feel vulnerable in it. having a gun in a false sense of security and no guarantee that if something happens it will save me or my loved ones. plus it leaves them at risk if they are stored improperly as i have 4 young children.

    guns are a false sense of security imho, but it is just an opinion and others are free to decide. i just think people put too much stock in their skill to use them adequately in a real life and death situation.
    Funny how you mention the term "need". Need has nothing to do with the definition of freedom. None of us "need" to speak our minds but we desire to do so and are granted the right to in this country.

    freedom -
    Noun
    The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
    Absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    No joke...I am a MTBer and a gun owner and probably doing both far longer that you have been on the planet...I don't see any inconsistencies there, so you don't get a pass to question my motives, not knowing who I am or anything about me.

    Thanks for reading my posts, but if what I've posted rubs you the wrong way, I suggest that you don't read them in the future...chill out and consider contributing something that raises the rhetoric of this discussion.
    I doubt you've been doing anything much longer than I've been on the planet. You certainly haven't ever posted a damn thing on this forum which has anything to do with mountain biking. You're here to troll. Purely and simply.

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuffink View Post
    I doubt you've been doing anything much longer than I've been on the planet. You certainly haven't ever posted a damn thing on this forum which has anything to do with mountain biking. You're here to troll. Purely and simply.
    Is this supposed to discredit his opinion? Don't get so personal about what seems to be a good, solid discussion.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Boguss View Post
    Do you consistently make conclusions based on no information?

    It doesn't matter to me if you do, but I didn't start this discussion.

    I am somewhat surprised that on this forum there is not more discussion of this topic in general...In some areas that I ride, I would not consider to venture there on bike or on foot unarmed.
    You're about as genuine as the bots that try to sell us Uggs.

  25. #275
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    never mind

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