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  1. #1
    AZ
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    Hydrogen fueled vehicles


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    I saw this. I'll remain hopeful.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  3. #3
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    BMW did some testing with a hydrogen car years ago, but nothing
    became of it. I think it is a great idea if it will really work.

  4. #4
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    I think it's cool that the car is said to be able to power your house for a week and serve as a de facto generator.
    Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  5. #5
    High Desert MTBer
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    Works for me... these have been around in one form or another, mostly on the drawing board, for some time. 'Bout fukkin time someone took the plunge. 2015 is about the time my Prius battery will self-destruct too, at least according to the gas-guzzlers out there who are so gleefully pointing that out to me
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  6. #6
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    Big oil will crush it.

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    Hydrogen fueled vehicles-cartoon674.jpg
    It's all Here. Now.

  8. #8
    Rod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    Big oil will crush it.
    If I was a betting man, this is where I would place my bet.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  9. #9
    AZ
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    Crush Toyota? I seriously doubt that, big oil isn't as powerful as it once was.

  10. #10
    ragley blue pig x
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    Re: Hydrogen fueled vehicles

    Well judging by how many doughballs I see behind the wheel i wonder if its not concerns about how to refuel these cars thats holding them back.
    Robotic arms are going to cost filling stations a fortune

    Personally I would forget the robotics and let joe blogs do it himself..cus most fat arse douchebags behind the wheel deserve to be frozen solid then blown up

  11. #11
    Rod
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ View Post
    Crush Toyota? I seriously doubt that, big oil isn't as powerful as it once was.
    Not crush Toyota, just keep the car from coming to the market. Sorry, but I'm cynical at this point. I do hope I'm wrong though.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  12. #12
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    As I understand it the exhaust is water vapor, so I wonder if the result of this technology, should it replace oil, would be to seed clouds and potentially increase rainfall. I think that the best answer to world's dependency on oil is to have several markets where there are alternative options. I will also say that compressed hydrogen fuel cells have the possibility of explosion if not handled competently. There are many guidelines that determine how to transport compressed gases or potentially explosive compounds. I wonder how these relate to hydrogen powered vehicles. Having said all that, I have more hope for this type of technology to replace gas powered vehicles than ethanol. We really do not want to have to choose between food or transportation. If someone can figure out how to use cellulosic material to generate ethanol or to use other food waste products to generate bio-diesel that is awesome. I really don't want to choose between eating my buttered corn or powering my car, or feeding cattle that will become burger.
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  13. #13
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    I hope no one ever figures out how to make H2O powered vehicles.

    The last thing I want to see is water @ 4.50 per gallon.
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  14. #14
    AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    As I understand it the exhaust is water vapor, so I wonder if the result of this technology, should it replace oil, would be to seed clouds and potentially increase rainfall. I think that the best answer to world's dependency on oil is to have several markets where there are alternative options. I will also say that compressed hydrogen fuel cells have the possibility of explosion if not handled competently. There are many guidelines that determine how to transport compressed gases or potentially explosive compounds. I wonder how these relate to hydrogen powered vehicles. Having said all that, I have more hope for this type of technology to replace gas powered vehicles than ethanol. We really do not want to have to choose between food or transportation. If someone can figure out how to use cellulosic material to generate ethanol or to use other food waste products to generate bio-diesel that is awesome. I really don't want to choose between eating my buttered corn or powering my car, or feeding cattle that will become burger.



    The CNG fueled vehicles have established the viability of using compressed gases so that should not prove to be too large a hurdle. The food for fuel is a great point and I believe that some are trying to find alternatives to corn, which imho was a huge government give away in the first place. I know that in Brasil they use Sugar Cane stalks to produce Ethanol, with great success I might add. The cloud seeding is something I had never considered and that is a very interesting question.

  15. #15
    human dehumidifier
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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    I hope no one ever figures out how to make H2O powered vehicles. The last thing I want to see is water @ 4.50 per gallon.
    If the water shortages some places have experienced continue to spread $4.50 per gallon will seem cheap.

    At one point, maybe when BMW was chasing this white whale, it seems they were talking about splitting water to make Hydrogen so that seemed like a problem but now they say it'll make water.
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    Yes, Brazil has become almost completely independent since they produce all that sugar cane. There a few factors that allow them to succeed in that endeavour, mainly the populace that drives is lower than other countries and the climate allows them to produce agricultural goods year round. However, they are not nearly as large or industrial a country as say China. That's where the strides to the future need to be bigger, better and quicker. I think I read somewhere that cars were no longer the biggest contributor to greenhouse gases but rather small motor transports (scooters and motorcycles) and lawnmowers. Anyway, we need alternatives for various reasons. The need is now so I hope we don't need start another energy war to spur the science forth.
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  17. #17
    Oh, the huge-meh-nity
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    There have been some pretty funny plans floating around the net for years for a 'hydrogen conversion'. The pitch was that you just put water in, the tank system splits the H and O, and you have clean burning fuel. Problem is, it takes more energy to split the molecules of water than you get energy back by combustion. Didn't keep people from selling silly-ass stainless bits for cars to 'convert' them.

    The biofuel is even more sad since it wasn't quite the pipe dream that water-tanked cars was. The statistic I heard years ago was that if we made ALL of the grain we produce into fuel, we would have less than 20% of our current demand. Ouch.

    Hopefully Toyota has all it's ducks in a row on this one...

  18. #18
    AZ
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    Well, you know that old saying, "You can always point out a Pioneer, they have arrows in their back". Someone has to bring it to market, Toyota is not the only manufacturer with hydrogen technology so props to them for doing it.

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    The problem with hydrogen is making it; producing hydrogen gas is very inefficient and energy intensive, storing & transporting it is a pain the butt as well since it leaks a lot more readily than natural gas, propane, or other common gasses. Converting the vehicle fleet to running on hydrogen will nearly double the overall energy consumption compared to where it is now. If all that energy to produce hydrogen comes from clean renewable sources, then great, unfortunately it does not. The vast majority of power plants are either coal or natural gas, mostly coal, which is dirty as hell. You're simply moving the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestacks, and there's more of it.

    Which is why hydrogen will not work until we literally run out of oil.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    The problem with hydrogen is making it; producing hydrogen gas is very inefficient and energy intensive, storing & transporting it is a pain the butt as well since it leaks a lot more readily than natural gas, propane, or other common gasses. Converting the vehicle fleet to running on hydrogen will nearly double the overall energy consumption compared to where it is now. If all that energy to produce hydrogen comes from clean renewable sources, then great, unfortunately it does not. The vast majority of power plants are either coal or natural gas, mostly coal, which is dirty as hell. You're simply moving the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestacks, and there's more of it.

    Which is why hydrogen will not work until we literally run out of oil.
    Every time some green energy alternative comes out, there are those who will try to claim it isn't really green. Flourescent light bulbs, hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles etc.

    I have a couple of comments about that part in bold:
    1. I don't believe it and would like to see a citation for that statistic.
    2. The amount of energy used to produce hydrocarbon fuel is minuscule compared to the amount of energy that fuel provides. I think that the stat may be (guessing) that energy for fuel production would double, but that would still be a tiny fraction of the energy obtained. And all that energy released for moving vehicles would be done so without a drop of CO2 generated. No way there would more emissions.

  21. #21
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    A guy from BP, not exactly an environmental greenie company:

    Steve Cook, BP's business development manager, talks of the 'well to wheels' analysis which calculates how much CO2 is produced at every stage of the chain in hydrogen production, adding up total emissions and comparing them to those produced by a petrol car. 'If you do that analysis, even if you use natural gas as the source, it still causes 25-40 per cent less CO2 than a normal petrol car.

    Hydrogen cars? Don't hold your breath | Advertisement feature | The Observer

  22. #22
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    Here we go, department of energy comparison - Well to wheels emissions as they call it.

    Toyota Further Explains Fuel Cell Viability - HybridCars.com
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hydrogen fueled vehicles-well-wheel-stats.jpg  

    Last edited by smilinsteve; 01-09-2014 at 04:11 PM.

  23. #23
    Oh, the huge-meh-nity
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    Hmm... do you mean the amount of energy used to extract, or refine a HC fuel is miniscule compared to the power it provides? As I understand it, producing crude oil is rather resource intensive in the lab.

    After reading a bit about availability, it sounds like Toyota could be successful in Cali and their home country at least. Interesting read.

    Hydrogen highway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    2. The amount of energy used to produce hydrocarbon fuel is minuscule compared to the amount of energy that fuel provides.
    It takes more energy to make hydrogen (splitting water)than hydrogen gives out when burning it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Hmm... do you mean the amount of energy used to [B]extract, or refine[B] a HC fuel is miniscule compared to the power it provides?
    As I understand it, producing crude oil is rather resource intensive in the lab.
    Yes that's what I mean, not produce in a lab (not a relevant comparison). The common terminology is to "produce" oil, (Oil producers, oil production, etc).

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