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  1. #1
    AZ
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    Hydrogen fueled vehicles


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    I saw this. I'll remain hopeful.

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    BMW did some testing with a hydrogen car years ago, but nothing
    became of it. I think it is a great idea if it will really work.

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    I think it's cool that the car is said to be able to power your house for a week and serve as a de facto generator.

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    Works for me... these have been around in one form or another, mostly on the drawing board, for some time. 'Bout fukkin time someone took the plunge. 2015 is about the time my Prius battery will self-destruct too, at least according to the gas-guzzlers out there who are so gleefully pointing that out to me
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  6. #6
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    Big oil will crush it.

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    Hydrogen fueled vehicles-cartoon674.jpg
    It's all Here. Now.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    Big oil will crush it.
    If I was a betting man, this is where I would place my bet.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

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    AZ
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    Crush Toyota? I seriously doubt that, big oil isn't as powerful as it once was.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ View Post
    Crush Toyota? I seriously doubt that, big oil isn't as powerful as it once was.
    Not crush Toyota, just keep the car from coming to the market. Sorry, but I'm cynical at this point. I do hope I'm wrong though.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

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    As I understand it the exhaust is water vapor, so I wonder if the result of this technology, should it replace oil, would be to seed clouds and potentially increase rainfall. I think that the best answer to world's dependency on oil is to have several markets where there are alternative options. I will also say that compressed hydrogen fuel cells have the possibility of explosion if not handled competently. There are many guidelines that determine how to transport compressed gases or potentially explosive compounds. I wonder how these relate to hydrogen powered vehicles. Having said all that, I have more hope for this type of technology to replace gas powered vehicles than ethanol. We really do not want to have to choose between food or transportation. If someone can figure out how to use cellulosic material to generate ethanol or to use other food waste products to generate bio-diesel that is awesome. I really don't want to choose between eating my buttered corn or powering my car, or feeding cattle that will become burger.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    I hope no one ever figures out how to make H2O powered vehicles.

    The last thing I want to see is water @ 4.50 per gallon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    As I understand it the exhaust is water vapor, so I wonder if the result of this technology, should it replace oil, would be to seed clouds and potentially increase rainfall. I think that the best answer to world's dependency on oil is to have several markets where there are alternative options. I will also say that compressed hydrogen fuel cells have the possibility of explosion if not handled competently. There are many guidelines that determine how to transport compressed gases or potentially explosive compounds. I wonder how these relate to hydrogen powered vehicles. Having said all that, I have more hope for this type of technology to replace gas powered vehicles than ethanol. We really do not want to have to choose between food or transportation. If someone can figure out how to use cellulosic material to generate ethanol or to use other food waste products to generate bio-diesel that is awesome. I really don't want to choose between eating my buttered corn or powering my car, or feeding cattle that will become burger.



    The CNG fueled vehicles have established the viability of using compressed gases so that should not prove to be too large a hurdle. The food for fuel is a great point and I believe that some are trying to find alternatives to corn, which imho was a huge government give away in the first place. I know that in Brasil they use Sugar Cane stalks to produce Ethanol, with great success I might add. The cloud seeding is something I had never considered and that is a very interesting question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    I hope no one ever figures out how to make H2O powered vehicles. The last thing I want to see is water @ 4.50 per gallon.
    If the water shortages some places have experienced continue to spread $4.50 per gallon will seem cheap.

    At one point, maybe when BMW was chasing this white whale, it seems they were talking about splitting water to make Hydrogen so that seemed like a problem but now they say it'll make water.
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    Yes, Brazil has become almost completely independent since they produce all that sugar cane. There a few factors that allow them to succeed in that endeavour, mainly the populace that drives is lower than other countries and the climate allows them to produce agricultural goods year round. However, they are not nearly as large or industrial a country as say China. That's where the strides to the future need to be bigger, better and quicker. I think I read somewhere that cars were no longer the biggest contributor to greenhouse gases but rather small motor transports (scooters and motorcycles) and lawnmowers. Anyway, we need alternatives for various reasons. The need is now so I hope we don't need start another energy war to spur the science forth.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    There have been some pretty funny plans floating around the net for years for a 'hydrogen conversion'. The pitch was that you just put water in, the tank system splits the H and O, and you have clean burning fuel. Problem is, it takes more energy to split the molecules of water than you get energy back by combustion. Didn't keep people from selling silly-ass stainless bits for cars to 'convert' them.

    The biofuel is even more sad since it wasn't quite the pipe dream that water-tanked cars was. The statistic I heard years ago was that if we made ALL of the grain we produce into fuel, we would have less than 20% of our current demand. Ouch.

    Hopefully Toyota has all it's ducks in a row on this one...

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    Well, you know that old saying, "You can always point out a Pioneer, they have arrows in their back". Someone has to bring it to market, Toyota is not the only manufacturer with hydrogen technology so props to them for doing it.

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    The problem with hydrogen is making it; producing hydrogen gas is very inefficient and energy intensive, storing & transporting it is a pain the butt as well since it leaks a lot more readily than natural gas, propane, or other common gasses. Converting the vehicle fleet to running on hydrogen will nearly double the overall energy consumption compared to where it is now. If all that energy to produce hydrogen comes from clean renewable sources, then great, unfortunately it does not. The vast majority of power plants are either coal or natural gas, mostly coal, which is dirty as hell. You're simply moving the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestacks, and there's more of it.

    Which is why hydrogen will not work until we literally run out of oil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    The problem with hydrogen is making it; producing hydrogen gas is very inefficient and energy intensive, storing & transporting it is a pain the butt as well since it leaks a lot more readily than natural gas, propane, or other common gasses. Converting the vehicle fleet to running on hydrogen will nearly double the overall energy consumption compared to where it is now. If all that energy to produce hydrogen comes from clean renewable sources, then great, unfortunately it does not. The vast majority of power plants are either coal or natural gas, mostly coal, which is dirty as hell. You're simply moving the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestacks, and there's more of it.

    Which is why hydrogen will not work until we literally run out of oil.
    Every time some green energy alternative comes out, there are those who will try to claim it isn't really green. Flourescent light bulbs, hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles etc.

    I have a couple of comments about that part in bold:
    1. I don't believe it and would like to see a citation for that statistic.
    2. The amount of energy used to produce hydrocarbon fuel is minuscule compared to the amount of energy that fuel provides. I think that the stat may be (guessing) that energy for fuel production would double, but that would still be a tiny fraction of the energy obtained. And all that energy released for moving vehicles would be done so without a drop of CO2 generated. No way there would more emissions.

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    A guy from BP, not exactly an environmental greenie company:

    Steve Cook, BP's business development manager, talks of the 'well to wheels' analysis which calculates how much CO2 is produced at every stage of the chain in hydrogen production, adding up total emissions and comparing them to those produced by a petrol car. 'If you do that analysis, even if you use natural gas as the source, it still causes 25-40 per cent less CO2 than a normal petrol car.

    Hydrogen cars? Don't hold your breath | Advertisement feature | The Observer

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    Here we go, department of energy comparison - Well to wheels emissions as they call it.

    Toyota Further Explains Fuel Cell Viability - HybridCars.com
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hydrogen fueled vehicles-well-wheel-stats.jpg  

    Last edited by smilinsteve; 01-09-2014 at 04:11 PM.

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    Hmm... do you mean the amount of energy used to extract, or refine a HC fuel is miniscule compared to the power it provides? As I understand it, producing crude oil is rather resource intensive in the lab.

    After reading a bit about availability, it sounds like Toyota could be successful in Cali and their home country at least. Interesting read.

    Hydrogen highway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    2. The amount of energy used to produce hydrocarbon fuel is minuscule compared to the amount of energy that fuel provides.
    It takes more energy to make hydrogen (splitting water)than hydrogen gives out when burning it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    Hmm... do you mean the amount of energy used to [B]extract, or refine[B] a HC fuel is miniscule compared to the power it provides?
    As I understand it, producing crude oil is rather resource intensive in the lab.
    Yes that's what I mean, not produce in a lab (not a relevant comparison). The common terminology is to "produce" oil, (Oil producers, oil production, etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    It takes more energy to make hydrogen (splitting water)than hydrogen gives out when burning it.

    I just cited two sources showing that emissions decrease when using hydrogen fuel. And there are different ways to produce hydrogen. Electrolysis of water would not be the method of choice for most production at the present time.

    I should note that the graph I posted above is a projection to 2035-2045 where I guess they take into account the development of the hydrogen industry to become more capable of production using greener methods.

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    I'd like to see the technology develop and mature awhile before committing one way or the other on it. I'd certainly prefer to see a car you filled with water, and its exhaust could also be its fuel, but obviously that has its limitations. Maybe combined with on-board solar generation and plug-in charging capability for the extra energy needed to make it work. Not sure if something like that would be overly complicated and defeat the purpose or what.

    As of right now, Tesla is showing just how viable all-electric is with the Model S. I've had a chance to sit in one and play around with it and if it drives as well as I keep hearing, I have a serious case of the wants for that car. I won't bother test driving one until I am prepared to buy it, because after spending some time in one, I can see it being the case that I cannot refuse writing a check after getting one out on the roads. With the possibility of purchasing 100% renewable energy from a mix of sources, I like the footprint reduction.

    Range and charging I see as the largest limitations right now. The car has a lot of options for charging it, but the options to get a really rapid charge for viable long trips in a reasonable amount of time are limited right now. I'd prefer to see a boost in range to around 500mi instead of the 250-300 (variable depending on driving habits as well as weather conditions).

    I think it will be easier to build out a network of electric vehicle charging stations across the country than to build out a network of hydrogen capable fueling stations. Even in Indiana, where 93% of the electricity in the state comes from coal, I am seeing electric vehicle charging stations pop up at all kinds of businesses. Swipe your credit card and top up while you're shopping, or in the parking garage at work, or at random locations all over the place. There's supposedly one less than half a mile from my house, even, and I live in a VERY working-class area. I see a couple Nissan Leafs in the area from time to time.

    I'm definitely not a fan of the ethanol to fuel thing at all. The last thing we need is more commodity corn that growers try to find markets for. They use it for crappy plastics and fuel and junk food additives and feeding factory-raised livestock all kinds of crap. It'd be nice if they could find a way to produce durable plastics from the stuff, so plastics would require less petroleum. But I'm not holding my breath. I'd just rather farmers grew real food...the energy losses of intensively growing food for food are insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Every time some green energy alternative comes out, there are those who will try to claim it isn't really green. Flourescent light bulbs, hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles etc.

    I have a couple of comments about that part in bold:
    1. I don't believe it and would like to see a citation for that statistic.
    How about we work out the math from first principles?

    US fuel consumption is around 10 million barrels per day, depending on time of year. There's about 125400 BTUs of energy in each gallon so over a year that works out to 17.5 Quads (quadrillion BTUs) or so. Car engines are about 25% efficient so that's about 4.4 Quads worth of work.

    Current fuel cells are about 60-70% efficient, call it 65%. For 4.4 Quads of work that's 6.7 Quads of Hydrogen. Liquifying H2 which is the only practical way to transport it takes about 40% of the energy content of the H2, so now we're up to 9.5 Quads. H2 evaporates at 4% per day so add that in and let's round it off to 10 Quads. Current electrolysis methods are about 30% efficient so that's about 33 Quads.

    So we go from burning gasoline which has a gross energy content of 17.5 Quads to using 33 Quads worth of energy to produce hydrogen. If you want green hydrogen production the electricity used for electrolysis must come from renewables and/or nuclear. Seeing that total renewables including hydroelectric, wind, and solar come out to 9.1 Quads, you got a bit of shortfall there (hydroelectric is about 90% of that 9.1), so it's either dam a bunch of rivers and/or build more nuke plants. Either way the greenies will crap a brick.

    Now there are other ways of making hydrogen other than electrolysis, but they all generate carbon dioxide and other carbon compounds as waste products since all they're doing is stripping the hydrogen off a hydrocarbon, all that carbon still has to go somewhere.

    If you're serious about green vehicles you go full electric. Electric motors are 90-95% efficient, battery packs are 80-90%, it skips out all the low efficiency conversion steps. But it's not a viable solution either since high efficiency motors and battery packs require all sorts of rare earth elements, there's a big difference between selling a quarter million hybrids a year and 15 million full electric cars. Rare earth elements are called that for a reason, they aren't plentiful so you're going to run into supply issues.

    Bottom line is there are no good solutions, only bad ones and less bad ones.

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    Neat. Actually, I still believe super capacitors will be the future, they are already in use in mass transit. Storage of energy period is one of the biggest issues.

    Aerius: You missed the possibility of using solar or wind power to produce hydrogen. There are already small scale low temp hydrogen production setups using electrolysis that can be used with solar or wind power. Of course, as you point out, efficiency is what really needs to be stepped up, and electric has that in spades. No transmission, driveshaft, or differential takes a lot of losses out of the equation...

    (Also, that Tesla car does look insanely sweet)

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    The problem with solar and wind is scale. As of right now they'd cover about 3% of the energy required for running America's vehicle fleet on hydrogen. Scaling up will be a giant pain the butt since those solar & wind farms will require many of the same rare earth elements & resources as electric cars. Plus you'll need some sort of energy storage solution since the sun won't always shine when you need it and the wind can often drop dead at the wrong time. Not to mention that manufacturing solar panels is not environmentally friendly to say the least.

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    True, and I'd agree again storage is really the biggest hurdle, but as far as solar being 'dirty', these are all effects of semiconductor manufacturing processes driven to the bottom dollar in general. The same could be said for any electronics manufacturing, or current energy 'extraction' boom, for that matter. (Production seems like a rather silly misnomer to me)
    And the three percent figure in the US is pretty sad, especially considering where Germany is on that right now...

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    Germany. Something like 35GW of installed solar capacity with an annual energy output of around 28 terawatt hours. Which is about the same as one of our medium sized CANDU nuke plants here in Ontario in terms of energy output. And we have 3 nuke plants. Including the largest operational plant in the world.

    As a sidenote, TOTAL energy consumption in Germany is a bit over 14 Quads. So all the coal, wind, solar, hydroelectric, gas, nuclear, and everything else put together wouldn't even be enough in terms of gasoline equivalent energy to run all the cars in the US.

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    Actually, all I was saying was that we generated .004% of our electricity last year by solar as opposed to the 4.7% in Germany, or the 25% (over double the US figure) from renewable energy in general...

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    Germany has gone all-in on renewable energy, whether it works is yet to be determined.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    Big oil will crush it.
    It makes me sick, but must agree
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  35. #35
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    Hyundai is also bringing one to market this year.

    https://www.hyundaiusa.com/tucsonfuelcell

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    Porsche makes a 911 now with measured CO2/exhaust lower than the ambient air.

    Previous concerns over hydrogen cars were the enormous pressure and the very volatile gaseous state, just static electricity would create an explosion. The storage of these cars in personal environments seems to be a huge limiting factor to their being a successor to Gas/Diesel and hybrid.
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  37. #37
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    Honda has a hydrogen powered car and has had it for a while.
    Just because Toyota is doing it doesn't mean it is new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CannondaleF9 View Post
    Honda has a hydrogen powered car and has had it for a while.
    Just because Toyota is doing it doesn't mean it is new.




    "Timmy" strikes again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    "Timmy" strikes again.
    Who is timmy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CannondaleF9 View Post
    Honda has a hydrogen powered car and has had it for a while.
    Just because Toyota is doing it doesn't mean it is new.
    what car would that be? Help us out with a link to it.
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  41. #41
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    I'll jump into the fray for the heck of it. BMW's hydrogen car had regular IC engine that was configured to burn hydrogen or gasoline, somewhat like the multi-fuel capabilities of some GM vehicels. Running on H2, the exhaust would be water vapour, nitrogen, and possibly some NOX if the vehicle had no catalytic converter. The fuel economy of the vehicle would suffer from the same inefficiencies as any Otto cycle IC engine, and thus would be considerably worse than a hydrogen fuel cell by comparison. What's worse, because hydrogen has such poor energy density compared to gasoline the BMW engine gets 4.7 mpg running on hydrogen compared to 16.9 mpg running on gasoline!

    Now for fuel cells; great idea for a space ship with an unlimited budget, but bringing down costs for mass production has been problematic. There are also the problems of longevity and durability. Since reactions are occurring at the atomic and molecular level, fuel and oxidizer cleanliness is essential as is the proper selection of materials to construct the fuel cell. Here's a list of things being worked on from the DOE:

    Fundamental materials degradation mechanisms.
    Impact of microstructure on performance and durability.
    Component microstructure stability in the three-phase region of reactant gas, electrolyte, and catalyst.
    Interface stability (plate/GDL, GDL/electrode, catalyst/support, electrode/membrane).
    Bipolar plate and GDL interactions and effect of (hydrophobicity and structural) stability on water management and flow field stability.
    Correlation of durability to local cell operating conditions.
    Effects of cell/stack operating parameters (current density, temperature, relative humidity).
    Correlation of performance drop to changes in structure and/or chemistry.
    Kinetic and materials models of the aging process.
    Effect of material degradation and structural changes on water management.
    Experimental data for water management models: degradation of hydrophobic materials properties (contact angle, porosity, permeability, cell resistance, etc.) with known automotive cycle stressors (e.g., freeze).
    Effects of degradation of other components (e.g., seal, bipolar plates, membranes, impurities) on components responsible for water management.

    Of course I haven't even touched the issue of generating the hydrogen, delivering it, and storing it. No infrastructure exists right now, and would cost billions to implement. As was mentioned earlier, hydrogen production has an energy cost, and producing it from NG is foolish as it would be more efficient to simply burn the NG in a conventional IC engine. Shell calculates that using the steam reformation process will require 3kg of natural gas to produce 1kg of hydrogen! The European Fuel Cell Forum states that fuel cell vehicles running on compressed hydrogen may have a power-plant-to-wheel efficiency of 22% if the hydrogen is stored as high-pressure gas, and 17% if it is stored as liquid hydrogen. Storing the H2 in your vehicle is also an issue as it needs to be either insanely cold or compressed at ridiculous pressures.

    Personally I believe we'll never see the technology commercialized for automotive use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    "Timmy" strikes again.


    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TloqFIEZJ6E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    I hope no one ever figures out how to make H2O powered vehicles.

    The last thing I want to see is water @ 4.50 per gallon.
    Really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CannondaleF9 View Post
    A) you can't buy the FCX Clarity, you can only lease it.

    B) it is not being massed produced.

    C) the production cost for the vehicle is $120,000 and $140,000 per vehicle.

    Toyota is going to be the first ones to sell the vehicle not just lease it.

    Not to mention the vehicle is not even offered on their website.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    BMW did some testing with a hydrogen car years ago, but nothing
    became of it. I think it is a great idea if it will really work.
    Yeah, I had a roommate years ago that was a tech for BMW and I remember when they got a service bulletin telling them that if one came in the shop, they were not to touch it.

    Anyways, I have been saying for years that this is the way of the future and I firmly believe it is.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    I say this - Hydrogen Cars will succumb to the fate of Druidia in Spaceballs, where the cars will be targeted by chop shops for the air inside them. Thieves with rubber hoses and ballast tanks will suck out the air in them, leaving the cars broken down and useless.

    The psychological effect upon Canine's will cause projectile vomiting w/o warning, ruining car interiors and, more important, resale value.

    Car Detailers will however be back in business and lining their pockets with barf-money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    Big oil will crush it.
    Big oil probably secretly owns the rights to the technology. You can bet they have the lion's share of that pie to themselves. Otherwise we wouldn't even know it exists.

  49. #49
    Rabid Lana fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glide the Clyde View Post
    Really?Name:  image.jpg
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    At this point, that is still just an option for the idiots. Once it becomes a source of fuel for your car, you won't find cheap/free access anywhere anymore except for rain.
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt I here
    rOCktoberfest 2015 pt II here

  50. #50
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    What ever happened to the CNG cars that were the end of oil guzzlers. ?
    How about LPG cars?

    Cars isn't the only thing that Big oil brews for... If they dont get their way, they up the cost to the other things they sell oil for. Putting pressure on those that influence whether cars make it to market or not. It's happened in the past and will happen in the future.
    Everything is tied to Big Oil in some way or another. They can bring a country to it's knees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Big oil probably secretly owns the rights to the technology. You can bet they have the lion's share of that pie to themselves. Otherwise we wouldn't even know it exists.

    Bingo.. This I agree.

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