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  1. #1
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    "The Dissolution of Humankind" - Too soon?!?

    Rockcrusher:

    "Once we prove any conspiracy theory as fact and not the ramblings of lonely men with nothing better to do but see evil in everything and beauty and compassion in nothing we can start a new thread about the dissolution of human kind, but until that happens we can leave them here."

    Since by now it is entirely obvious that the conspiracy of many lonely old men to see no beauty in anything, and to batter on about 'facts' that can be twisted to prove almost any lunatic fringe theory is now an indisputable truth, I can only conclude we are doomed!
    It's all Here. Now.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I can only conclude we are doomed!



    So were the Dinosaurs.

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    Blinders on, ready for destruction.

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    Good thing we have youtube so we can make a documentary about it.

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    Beer goggles on, ready for warefare....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Beer goggles on, ready for warefare....
    What's warefare? software fare or hardware fare?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyonadyke View Post
    What's warefare? software fare or hardware fare?
    it is the part of the comp that gets worn out by watching to much porn
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    There's some strange folk out there 'bouts. They have no sense of humor.
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  8. #8
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    I am pretty sure that somewhere on Youtube you will find indisputable factual evidence that Exxon pioneered time travel some time in the 80s, in collusion with John Delorean, and managed to send a nuke back in time to cause the great bacterial extinction to form the currently over-exploited oil deposits... Now there's a documentary!
    It's all Here. Now.

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    I have a theory that the earliest cave paintings have illuminati codes hidden in them which helped the NWO rise to power. It's not like we've changed through the ages or anyting. Post-modernism has just given the lazy and unartful the tools to participate from their barcaloungers. Just look it up.

  10. #10
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    Rocko, im with you we are doomed, shut the gate, the fat lady is dead, we are doomed..
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    Stereotype's reveal the internal self.

  12. #12
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    True proof of the dissolution of all that makes us human is the comments on youtube, followed closely by the comments on any Huff post women's lifestyle article. We are getting stupider by the second and as I have read lately "The problem with humanity is that the intelligent people are full of doubt and the stupid ones are full of confidence."

    Sums it up nicely.

    Conspiracy theories remind me of anti-vaccination theories: not a shred of scientific proof besides a few leaflets, loud voices and websites. As I said once you have a solid factual basis for a conspiracy you can then not call it a conspiracy because it becomes a fact and the idea that any government is so good at keeping a secret that we could be kept in the dark about chem-trails or WTC or Newtown or anything is ludicrous because the government is such a loose collection of aggregate each with its own ambition to sell out the person above so that they can move up that ladder that nothing stays secret. Iran-Contra, the blue dress, watergate, Clinton's and the junk bonds. Things at the POTUS level, that should most certainly be the most secret things ever and they all came out.

    The concept of a watertight conspiracy is based on the concept that people can keep their mouths shut over years. Hell even the guy that perpetrated the Bigfoot myth ratted himself out when he died.

    I respect that you believe that people can keep a secret, and sure maybe one person can keep a secret until their grave but the numbers of people that would need to keep a secret just to do something as small as Newtown would be impossible. That is way to much faith in humanity and thus if hundreds of people that would need to be in on WTC could keep quiet about it for 10 years did so I would say that humanity has become a much sadder version of itself when people like Deep Throat had the balls to rat out the damn POTUS. That is what I am getting at.

    I don't want to live on a planet where people wouldn't talk about something that they covered up even if the reason would just be monetary gain.

    Try this: HTFU

  13. #13
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    I have a theory that the earliest cave paintings have illuminati codes hidden in them which helped the NWO rise to power. It's not like we've changed through the ages or anyting. Post-modernism has just given the lazy and unartful the tools to participate from their barcaloungers. Just look it up.
    I have a theory that the designer and builder of St Peters Dome and the Duomo in Florence Filippo Brunelleschi is in fact a time traveler that got stuck in that era for whatever reason and decided to make a go of it. His designs for his machines to build those things are so above the level of anything else from that era and his understanding of materials and construction just have to show he is from the future. Of course I can't prove it. Hell I think the same thing about this guy from Nazareth too.
    Try this: HTFU

  15. #15
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    I swear I saw an image of Jesus in my poop.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt farmer View Post
    I swear I saw an image of Jesus in my poop.
    pictures or it didn't happen...in before MCS.

    Actually pictures and i'll delete the post...shit.
    Try this: HTFU

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I have a theory that the designer and builder of St Peters Dome and the Duomo in Florence Filippo Brunelleschi is in fact a time traveler that got stuck in that era for whatever reason and decided to make a go of it. His designs for his machines to build those things are so above the level of anything else from that era and his understanding of materials and construction just have to show he is from the future. Of course I can't prove it. Hell I think the same thing about this guy from Nazareth too.
    I'll youtube it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    True proof of the dissolution of all that makes us human is the comments on youtube, followed closely by the comments on any Huff post women's lifestyle article. We are getting stupider by the second and as I have read lately "The problem with humanity is that the intelligent people are full of doubt and the stupid ones are full of confidence."

    Sums it up nicely.

    Conspiracy theories remind me of anti-vaccination theories: not a shred of scientific proof besides a few leaflets, loud voices and websites. As I said once you have a solid factual basis for a conspiracy you can then not call it a conspiracy because it becomes a fact and the idea that any government is so good at keeping a secret that we could be kept in the dark about chem-trails or WTC or Newtown or anything is ludicrous because the government is such a loose collection of aggregate each with its own ambition to sell out the person above so that they can move up that ladder that nothing stays secret. Iran-Contra, the blue dress, watergate, Clinton's and the junk bonds. Things at the POTUS level, that should most certainly be the most secret things ever and they all came out.

    The concept of a watertight conspiracy is based on the concept that people can keep their mouths shut over years. Hell even the guy that perpetrated the Bigfoot myth ratted himself out when he died.

    I respect that you believe that people can keep a secret, and sure maybe one person can keep a secret until their grave but the numbers of people that would need to keep a secret just to do something as small as Newtown would be impossible. That is way to much faith in humanity and thus if hundreds of people that would need to be in on WTC could keep quiet about it for 10 years did so I would say that humanity has become a much sadder version of itself when people like Deep Throat had the balls to rat out the damn POTUS. That is what I am getting at.

    I don't want to live on a planet where people wouldn't talk about something that they covered up even if the reason would just be monetary gain.

    First question, from what are you quoting in the original post?

    2nd question, have you seen the movie Idiocracy? Its a general visual of the impending doom that awaits our future selves, but it's ok cause it's funny.

    Lastly, on the above, while I can't disagree, that's a little cold. Socrates killed himself, but really who does that? Sure he was smart, but he probably had some other issues too.

    I shall end with, supposedly Mark Twain.... Never debate with a stupid person, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Which means, in this context, let it go Henry Rollins. We were doomed before we got here...

    We didn't start the fire, it was always buurrninngggg since the world's been turning.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    We didn't start the fire, it was always buurrninngggg since the world's been turning.
    Whoah, you just quoted the second worst pop song in all of human history to make your point.

  20. #20
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    I'm sorry I got carried away, I admit it. I just flipped past vh1 and there it was, 6th grade all over again. sorrry

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    First question, from what are you quoting in the original post?

    2nd question, have you seen the movie Idiocracy? Its a general visual of the impending doom that awaits our future selves, but it's ok cause it's funny.

    Lastly, on the above, while I can't disagree, that's a little cold. Socrates killed himself, but really who does that? Sure he was smart, but he probably had some other issues too.

    I shall end with, supposedly Mark Twain.... Never debate with a stupid person, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Which means, in this context, let it go Henry Rollins. We were doomed before we got here...

    We didn't start the fire, it was always buurrninngggg since the world's been turning.
    I'm quoting my post from the original reference. Saw Idiocracy. Sadly sometimes it seems be coming true, although without the frozen in time thing.

    As a parent and a science educated individual I get blasted with these post Jenny McCarthy types that believe the vaccination/autism thing, even with peer reviewed and repeated tests showing it isn't actually linked at all in any cases. It is the desperate belief that you can explain something away and it will make you feel better that lead our ancient forefathers to say that thunder was Thor wielding his hammer in the heavens and posideon stirring the tempest.

    The whole conspiracy thing feels and looks like the same thing, yearn to explain how one individual or a small group of individuals can be so evil and wrapping our misgiving about religion, politics and personal biases into it and thus you get these crazy sounding schemes where our government sponsors domestic terrorism as a way of ensure you don't have access to guns. It is just as ludicrous as believing that Thor is making thunder. I could go out tomorrow and buy a gun legally here in Tucson, a city that had its locally elected governmental representative shot in the head by a mentally unstable young man but I couldn't go out and drive a motorcycle legally tomorrow yet these conspiracies always seem to show how the govt has created these to remove a couple of key freedoms, mainly guns and freedom.

    I get jaded a lot. I spent the first 24 years of life in canada so that explains a lot right there.
    Try this: HTFU

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    True proof of the dissolution of all that makes us human is the comments on youtube, followed closely by the comments on any Huff post women's lifestyle article. We are getting stupider by the second and as I have read lately "The problem with humanity is that the intelligent people are full of doubt and the stupid ones are full of confidence."

    Sums it up nicely.

    Conspiracy theories remind me of anti-vaccination theories: not a shred of scientific proof besides a few leaflets, loud voices and websites. As I said once you have a solid factual basis for a conspiracy you can then not call it a conspiracy because it becomes a fact and the idea that any government is so good at keeping a secret that we could be kept in the dark about chem-trails or WTC or Newtown or anything is ludicrous because the government is such a loose collection of aggregate each with its own ambition to sell out the person above so that they can move up that ladder that nothing stays secret. Iran-Contra, the blue dress, watergate, Clinton's and the junk bonds. Things at the POTUS level, that should most certainly be the most secret things ever and they all came out.

    The concept of a watertight conspiracy is based on the concept that people can keep their mouths shut over years. Hell even the guy that perpetrated the Bigfoot myth ratted himself out when he died.

    I respect that you believe that people can keep a secret, and sure maybe one person can keep a secret until their grave but the numbers of people that would need to keep a secret just to do something as small as Newtown would be impossible. That is way to much faith in humanity and thus if hundreds of people that would need to be in on WTC could keep quiet about it for 10 years did so I would say that humanity has become a much sadder version of itself when people like Deep Throat had the balls to rat out the damn POTUS. That is what I am getting at.

    I don't want to live on a planet where people wouldn't talk about something that they covered up even if the reason would just be monetary gain.

    You've never worked for the defense industry and had some sort of security clearance, with all the contracts you sign when you leave the company, in the name of national security. And that was, oh, 25-30 years ago, doubt it's gotten any easier.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    "The problem with humanity is that the intelligent people are full of doubt and the stupid ones are full of confidence."
    I prefer to think that this doubt of which you speak is more along the lines of curiosity and the product of a searching and inquiring mind that wants to get to the nub of the truth about something, Glass Full/Empty kind of thing. The confidence of the stupid is just stupid and should not be rewarded in the kind of ways that reality TV/pap media does right now. That is a BIG part of the 'dissolution of humankind' right now in my book. We need ways to better reward/encourage positive and truly creative thinking and doing, things which actually IMPROVE our world.
    You are right IMHO about the validity of these 'conspiracy' theories. It is just too much to think that all involved can keep schtumm for so long and with such aplomb. We are just not that good at keeping a secret!
    It's all Here. Now.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    Stereotype's reveal the internal self.
    I am afraid I cannot see what this means. Can you elaborate please?
    It's all Here. Now.

  25. #25
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    IMO there's a disconnect from reality and consequences that's growing stronger. Like all the kids on a mediocre team getting awards. For what? What happened to the best or the winners getting awards and the rest have to deal with not. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    Not to mention people and their lives being controlled by the ultra rich's greed more and more, and now on a global level.
    People are the same as they were 30 years ago but now, IMO, thanx to cable news filling a 24 hour cycle on multiple channels, people live in fear. Even the weather channel gets in on the mongering. We could and should all take a stand against all news media that's opinionated, speculative, and fills an agenda, which IMO is all channels on tv on some level.
    There's many scenarios that I could point to that prove these points, but I think "Global Climate Change" is one of the best, most obvious, and unbelievable that so many people buy into, as well as completely man made. There's no denying mankind hasn't screwed up the planet in many ways, and may even have an impact on climate. Or that big oil and fossil fuel money and infrastructure is holding us hostage. The fact of the matter is that glacial periods last around 100,000 years, and inter-glacial periods, like the one we're enjoying now, last around 11,000. Which btw our last ice age was around 11,500 years ago so ? It has been PROVEN this way throughout our planets history. Or the fact that the planet has been warmer, and warmer for much longer, with higher c02 levels than now, before fossil fuels were even used, like the medieval warm period as a proven example.
    This doesn't seem to matter. I'm starting to guess that as long as your intentions are good or seem that way, it really doesn't matter. Like little Johnny getting an award for baseball even thou he sucks. We wouldn't want him to feel bad or have to deal with reality or consequences.

    There's a saying "if you had a brain you'd be dangerous", which I think sums up our existence pretty well. We as a race lay claim to so much, and pat ourselves on the back and celebrate our accomplishments at every opportunity, yet there's still oppression world wide, and we're ruining the only planet we have at an accelerated rate. Yahoo for us.

    I could go on about how people don't have the make-up, or genetic history to live in such large societies, with so many ways to fill all your needs by yourself, and how that is effecting and what it's evolving into, but this post is long enough.
    Round and round we go

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    As a parent and a science educated individual I get blasted with these post Jenny McCarthy types that believe the vaccination/autism thing, even with peer reviewed and repeated tests showing it isn't actually linked at all in any cases. It is the desperate belief that you can explain something away and it will make you feel better that lead our ancient forefathers to say that thunder was Thor wielding his hammer in the heavens and posideon stirring the tempest.

    The whole conspiracy thing feels and looks like the same thing, yearn to explain how one individual or a small group of individuals can be so evil and wrapping our misgiving about religion, politics and personal biases into it and thus you get these crazy sounding schemes where our government sponsors domestic terrorism as a way of ensure you don't have access to guns. It is just as ludicrous as believing that Thor is making thunder. I could go out tomorrow and buy a gun legally here in Tucson, a city that had its locally elected governmental representative shot in the head by a mentally unstable young man but I couldn't go out and drive a motorcycle legally tomorrow yet these conspiracies always seem to show how the govt has created these to remove a couple of key freedoms, mainly guns and freedom.

    I get jaded a lot. I spent the first 24 years of life in canada so that explains a lot right there.
    As a person in a plant research laboratory, I can appreciate the anger and frustration at a group of loud individuals that do not do their own research, take the word of a public individual, and never concede that either that individual could be wrong or that they could be wrong for accepting the words of this individual. I can also understand the emotion, pain, and guilt of a parent who has a child born with a disability, either mental or physical. My son was born with a complete unilateral cleft. Several ultrasounds and no family history did nothing to prepare us for that eventuality after 2.5 days of labor. We are inherently social animals, want our children to be accepted, and may not have the emotional stability or sound mind to understand that sh*t happens. It's funny to me because excuses and/or reasons never made reality easier to bear. Truly the blame lies with the "scientist" who fudged data for recognition, he has done irreparable harm to the good that vaccinations bring to our society on the whole. I do concede that Jenny McCarthy has absolutely no credentials that would allow her to open her mouth on such subjects. She should've stuck to eating ice cream naked. Finally, just because someone one trusts says something does not absolve one from the responsibility to oneself and others to go to the library and look it up before telling everyone you know what it is that you think you know.

    Conspiracy theorists are just novelists making a pitch too caught up in character development who then forgot to write it down and perhaps are just looking for a publisher. This of course excludes those who are mental unstable and are deserving of or require mental health care or treatment.

    Rockcrusher, I've known a few Canadians and I think you picked up some sort of bug when you came to the states.

    In closing, I believe that the world is a more perfect place than can possibly be imagined. I cannot see all ends, beginnings, or all in my presence. However, I still have faith that life is a beautiful gift. I would not fully appreciate the beauty of the world without the BS. It's sad, but true for me. No song lyrics this time.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    As a person in a plant research laboratory, I can appreciate the anger and frustration at a group of loud individuals that do not do their own research, take the word of a public individual, and never concede that either that individual could be wrong or that they could be wrong for accepting the words of this individual. I can also understand the emotion, pain, and guilt of a parent who has a child born with a disability, either mental or physical. My son was born with a complete unilateral cleft. Several ultrasounds and no family history did nothing to prepare us for that eventuality after 2.5 days of labor. We are inherently social animals, want our children to be accepted, and may not have the emotional stability or sound mind to understand that sh*t happens. It's funny to me because excuses and/or reasons never made reality easier to bear. Truly the blame lies with the "scientist" who fudged data for recognition, he has done irreparable harm to the good that vaccinations bring to our society on the whole. I do concede that Jenny McCarthy has absolutely no credentials that would allow her to open her mouth on such subjects. She should've stuck to eating ice cream naked. Finally, just because someone one trusts says something does not absolve one from the responsibility to oneself and others to go to the library and look it up before telling everyone you know what it is that you think you know.

    Conspiracy theorists are just novelists making a pitch too caught up in character development who then forgot to write it down and perhaps are just looking for a publisher. This of course excludes those who are mental unstable and are deserving of or require mental health care or treatment.

    Rockcrusher, I've known a few Canadians and I think you picked up some sort of bug when you came to the states.

    In closing, I believe that the world is a more perfect place than can possibly be imagined. I cannot see all ends, beginnings, or all in my presence. However, I still have faith that life is a beautiful gift. I would not fully appreciate the beauty of the world without the BS. It's sad, but true for me. No song lyrics this time.
    Nice post. This thread has some serious potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I'm quoting my post from the original reference. Saw Idiocracy. Sadly sometimes it seems be coming true, although without the frozen in time thing.

    As a parent and a science educated individual I get blasted with these post Jenny McCarthy types that believe the vaccination/autism thing, even with peer reviewed and repeated tests showing it isn't actually linked at all in any cases. It is the desperate belief that you can explain something away and it will make you feel better that lead our ancient forefathers to say that thunder was Thor wielding his hammer in the heavens and posideon stirring the tempest.

    The whole conspiracy thing feels and looks like the same thing, yearn to explain how one individual or a small group of individuals can be so evil and wrapping our misgiving about religion, politics and personal biases into it and thus you get these crazy sounding schemes where our government sponsors domestic terrorism as a way of ensure you don't have access to guns. It is just as ludicrous as believing that Thor is making thunder. I could go out tomorrow and buy a gun legally here in Tucson, a city that had its locally elected governmental representative shot in the head by a mentally unstable young man but I couldn't go out and drive a motorcycle legally tomorrow yet these conspiracies always seem to show how the govt has created these to remove a couple of key freedoms, mainly guns and freedom.

    I get jaded a lot. I spent the first 24 years of life in canada so that explains a lot right there.
    So if someone told you that electrolytes on plants was a bad thing, you'd just ignore them, because conspiracy theories are something you'd rather not spend time thinking about ?

    That's cool, we all pick and choose what we want to think about ... But discrediting the individual's opinion, because of nothing more than an opinion, is not a good thing to do.
    They might be right

    Concerning government conspiracies ... History has already shown us that governments do things that are latter shown to be unacceptable to society.
    Romans vilifying and killing Christians comes to mind, as doe things that have occurred in more recent times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I am afraid I cannot see what this means. Can you elaborate please?
    How one feels, thinks, and acts toward others is a reflection of self.
    If one thinks they are superior to another, they are probably also inferior in some fashion.
    If they act negative toward another, due to their superior feeling, they are most assuredly inferior, to a greater degree, than those they are negative toward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    There's a saying "if you had a brain you'd be dangerous", which I think sums up our existence pretty well.
    This is what makes man the most dangerous thing on the planet.
    Fortunately, few choose to utilize their brain for harm ... The problem is ... They let others think for them, and this ... Can be even more dangerous

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    So if someone told you that electrolytes on plants was a bad thing, you'd just ignore them, because conspiracy theories are something you'd rather not spend time thinking about ?

    That's cool, we all pick and choose what we want to think about ... But discrediting the individual's opinion, because of nothing more than an opinion, is not a good thing to do.
    They might be right

    Concerning government conspiracies ... History has already shown us that governments do things that are latter shown to be unacceptable to society.
    Romans vilifying and killing Christians comes to mind, as doe things that have occurred in more recent times.
    No I would sit down and research the comment, find conclusive evidence on the subject, that is either peer reviewed scientific information or in the case of legal procedures some legally documented proceeding, conclusions and reasonable verdicts and then base my decisions on that. Basing my decisions to, say, get my child vaccinated or not based on one un-repeated trial and a bunch of internet babble is not what I would call using my brain. It is what I would call a kneejerk reaction to something that perhaps I don't fully understand. It is a balance of those that have proven something to be true vs those that believe something in not true but have no proof. I will always stand with definitive proof which is why refer to conspiracy theories as theories because they have no proof of fact. They have circumstantial evidence or coincidental evidence or just hearsay but there is no proof. No one has any proof about JFK, or Roswell aliens, or the Newtown shooting. The only evidence for the Autism/Vaccination theory was discredited as being falsified data. Same with the human cloning in Korea.

    I take fact before I take theory and the worst kind of theory is anonymous internet theory.
    Try this: HTFU

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    No I would sit down and research the comment, find conclusive evidence on the subject, that is either peer reviewed scientific information or in the case of legal procedures some legally documented proceeding, conclusions and reasonable verdicts and then base my decisions on that. Basing my decisions to, say, get my child vaccinated or not based on one un-repeated trial and a bunch of internet babble is not what I would call using my brain. It is what I would call a kneejerk reaction to something that perhaps I don't fully understand. It is a balance of those that have proven something to be true vs those that believe something in not true but have no proof. I will always stand with definitive proof which is why refer to conspiracy theories as theories because they have no proof of fact. They have circumstantial evidence or coincidental evidence or just hearsay but there is no proof. No one has any proof about JFK, or Roswell aliens, or the Newtown shooting. The only evidence for the Autism/Vaccination theory was discredited as being falsified data. Same with the human cloning in Korea.

    I take fact before I take theory and the worst kind of theory is anonymous internet theory.
    Piltdown Man - the greatest hoax in the history of science? | Natural History Museum
    Follow the story of Piltdown Man, once hailed as our early human ancestor but exposed as a shocking scientific fraud 40 years later.
    Science once taught that heavy objects fell faster than light ones, and that the Earth was flat.

    I get what you're saying, but I don't immediately discount what someone says, along with the individual, just because I think the idea is crazy.

    Facts of the past have been proven wrong many times, as new information is discovered.

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    Platitudes are the lowest form of trolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    This is what makes man the most dangerous thing on the planet.
    Fortunately, few choose to utilize their brain for harm ... The problem is ... They let others think for them, and this ... Can be even more dangerous
    While it's hard to disagree with this you missed my point completely.
    Round and round we go

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    As far as conspiracy, sometimes it is just that and sometimes it's not. To just accept things like JFK's one bullet, or smoking isn't bad for you, or Pearl Harbor, or weapons of mass destruction, and so many other things would be far worse.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    Platitudes are the lowest form of trolling.


    Glad I'm not the only one that sees it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    Glad I'm not the only one that sees it.
    There's a few around...
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    In closing, I believe that the world is a more perfect place than can possibly be imagined. I cannot see all ends, beginnings, or all in my presence. However, I still have faith that life is a beautiful gift. I would not fully appreciate the beauty of the world without the BS. It's sad, but true for me. No song lyrics this time.

    This statement is about the best I have seen on this or any other thread. It is something I try to live my life being mindful of, and seeing it here this morning has brightened this day for me!
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    How one feels, thinks, and acts toward others is a reflection of self.
    If one thinks they are superior to another, they are probably also inferior in some fashion.
    If they act negative toward another, due to their superior feeling, they are most assuredly inferior, to a greater degree, than those they are negative toward.
    Interesting interpretation!
    It's all Here. Now.

  40. #40
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    Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words- "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words- "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
    QED in order to fully understand 'Highdelll' we need to split the word into 2 parts:

    ...


    Sorry Dell, couldn't resist!
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Interesting interpretation!
    I did make it up, but believe it to be true.

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    I'm glad to see some precipitate in here. Unfortunately, it does seem that in order for us to grow we need to be tied down. We appear to need pressure to push back and gravity in order to fly. Perhaps the jaded perspective is necessary to see we need to work against the complacency of society. However, we should do so not with anger and should start with ourself because to see someone else's progress and perseverance is more believable than to hear simply words or read simple script.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    How one feels, thinks, and acts toward others is a reflection of self.
    If one thinks they are superior to another, they are probably also inferior in some fashion.
    If they act negative toward another, due to their superior feeling, they are most assuredly inferior, to a greater degree, than those they are negative toward.
    I like it. It's a nice elaboration of the Golden Rule.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    I like it. It's a nice elaboration of the Golden Rule.
    Hadn't really thought about it, but yea, I guess it is.

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    Their is a possiblity that Vaccines are causing autism, in reality nobody knows for sure, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with doing away with say the Flu Vaccine as it is unreliable and "misses" completley quit often and worse case? oHHHH your kid is sick for a few days. The elderly are another ballgame alltogether.
    People claim it does not cause sickness, but the three times I have had it, I became sick within two days of taking it, coincidence? possibly, but everyones body reacts differently, and with the more we think we know, the more we find we do not, so I go with the old rule, if it makes you sick, dont take it, screw someone else telling you what YOU are supposed to feel.
    Autism rates increasing sharply, CDC study finds - Los Angeles Times
    From something like one in 10,000 in the early seveneties, to one in fifty now, if this keeps going, we will no longer be able to function as a society.

  47. #47

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Their is a possiblity that Vaccines are causing autism, in reality nobody knows for sure, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with doing away with say the Flu Vaccine as it is unreliable and "misses" completley quit often and worse case? oHHHH your kid is sick for a few days. The elderly are another ballgame alltogether.
    People claim it does not cause sickness, but the three times I have had it, I became sick within two days of taking it, coincidence? possibly, but everyones body reacts differently, and with the more we think we know, the more we find we do not, so I go with the old rule, if it makes you sick, dont take it, screw someone else telling you what YOU are supposed to feel.
    So far there's little or no scientific data to back up any claims that vaccines cause autism. As was noted earlier some of the first claims were drawn from an incredibly reckless researcher (Andrew Wakefield) who conducted an entirely invalid study looking at this link. The problem is that study planted the seed of doubt in a couple generations of parents and got us to the Jenny McCarthys of today.

    The flu vaccine does occasionally miss and that's just how it goes but most of the time its spot on. Getting a little sick after taking the vaccine is normal for many people. However it cannot give you the flu because the virus is completely inactivated, you're just getting a a harmless coat protein that will stimulate your immune system to make antibodies that will recognize live flu virus. It takes time for this process to work so if you got the flu after getting vaccinated then it is coincidence and you simply didn't get the vaccine in time to prevent the flu virus from infecting you. Getting vaccinated far outweighs the risk both to you as an individual and society as a whole. But by all means if you have some sort of adverse reaction to it then don't take it.

    Autism rates increasing sharply, CDC study finds - Los Angeles Times
    From something like one in 10,000 in the early seveneties, to one in fifty now, if this keeps going, we will no longer be able to function as a society.
    The minute I saw this I thought that the rise in rates may be due to better screening, reporting, and changing criteria for diagnosis. And that's exactly what the article cited in the post says. So you need another citation to back your assertions because this one says exactly the opposite of what you're claiming

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Their is a possiblity that Vaccines are causing autism, in reality nobody knows for sure, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with doing away with say the Flu Vaccine as it is unreliable and "misses" completley quit often and worse case? oHHHH your kid is sick for a few days. The elderly are another ballgame alltogether.
    People claim it does not cause sickness, but the three times I have had it, I became sick within two days of taking it, coincidence? possibly, but everyones body reacts differently, and with the more we think we know, the more we find we do not, so I go with the old rule, if it makes you sick, dont take it, screw someone else telling you what YOU are supposed to feel.
    Autism rates increasing sharply, CDC study finds - Los Angeles Times
    From something like one in 10,000 in the early seveneties, to one in fifty now, if this keeps going, we will no longer be able to function as a society.
    There is also a chance the diet soda is causing Autism, or increased pollution levels or a large aggregate of older parents. Correlation doesn't not indicate causation. Vaccines work on the concept that there is a group immunity. 90% of people have an immunity to the disease so that if someone does get rubella there isn't an outbreak the results in thousands of people getting it. Think the black plague. Just because people that have gotten vaccinated got autism doesn't mean that they got it from vaccinations. Sadly right around the time that a child is old enough to start getting the serious vaccinations is the time that you begin to notice the behavioral indicators of autism. It is easy to search for a link to why your child is autistic and when you get a needle it is easy to blame it. Very few people look back at what they were doing when their body was making the eggs and sperm to make that baby. Age, drugs, pollution and physical stresses all effect the way they egg and sperm develop. The only scientific study that linked the two was easily discredited with peer review and no one being able to reproduce the results independently. For their to be a link at least one other study would need to be able to reproduce the results independently.

    If you get sick from the flu vaccination then you can request a dead vaccination instead of an alive one and it will have no effect on you. It is the requirement for people who are sensitive to it, children, elderly and pregnant women. The purpose again of the flu vaccine is to make sure that those that don't respond to it or are more susceptible to it don't create a pandemic. Look at the Flu outbreak of 1918 for an example of what can happen to an unvaccinated population.

    and directly from that article" The new figure, based on 2008 data, is sure to fuel debate over whether a growing environmental threat could be at work. But autism researchers around the country said the CDC data — including striking geographic and racial variations in the rates and how they have changed — suggest that rising awareness of the disorder, better detection and improved access to services can explain much of the surge, and perhaps all of it.

    Comparing even rates from the 70's to now is fraught with problems because we are substantially better at detecting disease, parents are more sensitive to how their children behave and more people go to the doctor. Again this is a statistic that needs to be seen against the methods and the means and the social factors of its comparison. All too often we rattle off a statistic because it is convenient to support a theory but we rarely mention how it was taken or if there is a any error in that statistic.

    In this case and being the parent of a child my pediatrician tells me that people come in seeking an autism diagnosis so they can explain away their child's behavioral problems. My child has a pragmatic speech issue and his speech therapist tells me he gets the same thing, people that want to explain away their children's language development issues with a diagnosis of autism. For some it has become a cool thing for your child to brag about (my previous employer used to tell me all the time that his son was a high functioning aspergers child but he wasn't they just needed to explain away how he was a failure at school) and for others it is just away of trying to accept that their child is different. For me the last thing I want is my child have a diagnosis of autism (which he doesn't have) he is just developing differently and we have to work double hard to get him up to speed (which is perhaps what parents want to avoid and so they go for the autism diagnosis hoping to get help from the schools and medicine and such).
    Try this: HTFU

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbikur View Post
    So far there's little or no scientific data to back up any claims that vaccines cause autism. As was noted earlier some of the first claims were drawn from an incredibly reckless researcher (Andrew Wakefield) who conducted an entirely invalid study looking at this link. The problem is that study planted the seed of doubt in a couple generations of parents and got us to the Jenny McCarthys of today.

    The flu vaccine does occasionally miss and that's just how it goes but most of the time its spot on. Getting a little sick after taking the vaccine is normal for many people. However it cannot give you the flu because the virus is completely inactivated, you're just getting a a harmless coat protein that will stimulate your immune system to make antibodies that will recognize live flu virus. It takes time for this process to work so if you got the flu after getting vaccinated then it is coincidence and you simply didn't get the vaccine in time to prevent the flu virus from infecting you. Getting vaccinated far outweighs the risk both to you as an individual and society as a whole. But by all means if you have some sort of adverse reaction to it then don't take it.
    Yea the government tells you its ok, so it must be, just like GMO, again, there is absoluitely no logical reason to foce a vaccine on anyone when there is no threat of an imminent outbreak, the use Of vaccine and autism are according although personally I suspect it is do to many factors, not necessarily just one.
    I do feel sorry for you though, why after all the constant lies and misinformation the government puts forth daily, would you possibly believe anything they say? Why when you have the former executives of Major coporations running the FDA, EPA ect would you believe anything they have to say, do you really at that point believe they have your best interest at heart? Man, I want some of your happy pills if you do.


    The minute I saw this I thought that the rise in rates may be due to better screening, reporting, and changing criteria for diagnosis. And that's exactly what the article cited in the post says. So you need another citation to back your assertions because this one says exactly the opposite of what you're claiming
    Actually no that is false, the amount of people, unable to function at a normal level has increased dramatically, all one has to do is think back to 30 years ago, and how many "off" people you knew, hardly any, now? there were so many autistic kids living on a Military Base a friend of mine was stationed at (he has two himself) they actually had a sign up warning of the presence of such children.
    This really is no surprise, the Military uses troops as little more than test subjects for major chemical companies.
    Again, Gulf war Syndrom is not fully known what is the cause, but what we do know is the government did its absolute best to cover it up for some time, that is ignorant, repugnant and why on earth again, you would give the Gov any credibility after consistant lie after lie is beyond me.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Their is a possiblity that Vaccines are causing autism, in reality nobody knows for sure, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with doing away with say the Flu Vaccine as it is unreliable and "misses" completley quit often and worse case? oHHHH your kid is sick for a few days. The elderly are another ballgame alltogether.
    People claim it does not cause sickness, but the three times I have had it, I became sick within two days of taking it, coincidence? possibly, but everyones body reacts differently, and with the more we think we know, the more we find we do not, so I go with the old rule, if it makes you sick, dont take it, screw someone else telling you what YOU are supposed to feel.
    Autism rates increasing sharply, CDC study finds - Los Angeles Times
    From something like one in 10,000 in the early seveneties, to one in fifty now, if this keeps going, we will no longer be able to function as a society.
    "rising awareness of the disorder, better detection and improved access to services can explain much of the surge, and perhaps all of it." Next sentence. "Some experts questioned the validity of relying on records to estimate the disorder's true prevalence."

    Autism is a condition that is currently diagnosed by a doctor based on the interpretation of symptoms the child is exhibiting. The article mentions the environment, practices, and culture instead of a biological reason as the cause. This is broad enough to include vaccinations. I think that as we increase our knowledge base and improve our methods of detection it is not uncommon to see an increased diagnosis for many things. Also, the wording in this article, IMO, is somewhat written for shock value, to elicit a predictable emotional response. Furthermore, this is an estimate and at the big end of that I'd think. I think the truth is that it's amazing any of us can function given that so much can go wrong so easily biologically, but we can and we do.

    Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com

    The link above goes to an article concerning the Wakefield study. It has been debunked and the journal that published the article retracted and apologized. I could probably find the journal's response, but this should do.

    I should probably say that a vaccination is a small amount of the virus that your body then develops anitbodies for and so it is natural for one to be slightly ill after receiving the shot as your body allocates its resources to fend off the virus. Also, there are other things in the shot, like yeast, that some can be allergic to. There's chance in everything, but that is no reason to harbor fear of the unknown. There was a resurgence of whooping cough recently that was attributed to some kids' not getting vaccinated. Vaccinations have virtually eradicated polio and other debilitating diseases. I am for the individual, but sometimes I concede that in order to be a good neighbor, friend and father I should just take the shot because the pros outweigh the cons.
    Last edited by dbhammercycle; 04-20-2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason: additional thought
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    "rising awareness of the disorder, better detection and improved access to services can explain much of the surge, and perhaps all of it." Next sentence. "Some experts questioned the validity of relying on records to estimate the disorder's true prevalence."

    Autism is a condition that is currently diagnosed by a doctor based on the interpretation of symptoms the child is exhibiting. The article mentions the environment, practices, and culture instead of a biological reason as the cause. This is broad enough to include vaccinations. I think that as we increase our knowledge base and improve our methods of detection it is not uncommon to see an increased diagnosis for many things. Also, the wording in this article, IMO, is somewhat written for shock value, to elicit a predictable emotional response. Furthermore, this is an estimate and at the big end of that I'd think. I think the truth is that it's amazing any of us can function given that so much can go wrong so easily biologically, but we can and we do.

    Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com

    The link above goes to an article concerning the Wakefield study. It has been debunked and the journal that published the article retracted and apologized. I could probably find the journal's response, but this should do.
    I know several Autistic Children personally, one does not need a medical degree to diagnose them, so while our detection methods certainly are better, it is easy to see that the risk is real, and getting out of control.
    Beyond that while the link between vaccines and Autism cannot befully proven (a lone scientist fighting scientists who need funding from major coporations will always lose) , it cannot be disaproven as well, it is always especially in the face of oh, I dono THE FUTURE OF F&*%#$ MANKIND better to be on the safe side, than not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Yea the government tells you its ok, so it must be, just like GMO, again, there is absoluitely no logical reason to foce a vaccine on anyone when there is no threat of an imminent outbreak, the use Of vaccine and autism are according although personally I suspect it is do to many factors, not necessarily just one.
    I do feel sorry for you though, why after all the constant lies and misinformation the government puts forth daily, would you possibly believe anything they say? Why when you have the former executives of Major coporations running the FDA, EPA ect would you believe anything they have to say, do you really at that point believe they have your best interest at heart? Man, I want some of your happy pills if you do.
    Actually the government has nothing to do with vaccinations. You can live your life completely without them. However there are a lot of places that will not allow you to visit, say hospitals and the majority of schools won't let you attend.

    This isn't a evil corporation thing this is a for the good of the human race kind of thing. You choose what side you are on and base it on whatever you want to believe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Actually no that is false, the amount of people, unable to function at a normal level has increased dramatically, all one has to do is think back to 30 years ago, and how many "off" people you knew, hardly any, now? there were so many autistic kids living on a Military Base a friend of mine was stationed at (he has two himself) they actually had a sign up warning of the presence of such children.
    This really is no surprise, the Military uses troops as little more than test subjects for major chemical companies.
    Again, Gulf war Syndrom is not fully known what is the cause, but what we do know is the government did its absolute best to cover it up for some time, that is ignorant, repugnant and why on earth again, you would give the Gov any credibility after consistant lie after lie is beyond me.
    I hear you on the gulf war syndrome, I mean it has a huge statistical indicator that it was something from either Iraq or the military chemicals but I want to see the statistics that show there are more nonfunctioning adults now than in the past.

    Comparing rates of anything in the military against the non-military public is a statistical nightmare. My father was in the military and he got ALS. When he was dying he found out the the rates of ALS are much higher in the military than anywhere else excluding an island in the indonesia but is the military the cause? Do people that join the military have something in them that makes them more likely to get ALS? Is there a pollutant on a ship? Injections? Food? Just because there was that link it doesn't mean the military caused it and more than it means the military didn't cause it.

    It is so easy to bend statistics to what you want to hear but autistic kids in the military doesn't denote that the military is causing it. Hell for all we know the rigors of basic training causes a degradation of the sperm producing cells and they begin to encode an error which can lead to autism. If you sampled people that had similar physical exertions in the same time frame and their children showed the same propensity for autism then you could begin to assume that excessive physical stress for men in their 20's can be detrimental to their children's development. But it could honestly be anything. My father's ALS, could have been anything, he was a scientist as well, perhaps a chemical they used. He grew up in chicago, perhaps a pollutant. It is easy to point fingers at a culprit it is much much harder to actually prove that it was that. The problem with point fingers is you have already accepted it as the culprit and are now biased towards that basis. Hearing that the research was falsified didn't change the minds of all those vaccination causes autism people because they believe it and changing belief is much harder than anything else in the world. Just ask any theologist to question their belief.
    Try this: HTFU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    I know several Autistic Children personally, one does not need a medical degree to diagnose them, so while our detection methods certainly are better, it is easy to see that the risk is real, and getting out of control.
    Beyond that while the link between vaccines and Autism cannot befully proven (a lone scientist fighting scientists who need funding from major coporations will always lose) , it cannot be disaproven as well, it is always especially in the face of oh, I dono THE FUTURE OF F&*%#$ MANKIND better to be on the safe side, than not.
    if you really want to save mankind then get your vaccinations. This is what happened when a major disease we get vaccinated against broke out: 1918 flu pandemic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    that is 50-100 million people dead. Vaccinations save more lives than you can ever imagine and that is no lie.
    Try this: HTFU

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    I will admit that it is equally important in science to disprove as it is to prove a theory. That being said, since the link between vaccination and Autism is neither proven nor disproved one should be careful when discussing the subject and allow for intelligent discussion based on what can be proven and neither include or discard those possibilites that have not been disproved. Because it's THE FUTURE OF F&*%#$ MANKIND at stake.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    Actually the government has nothing to do with vaccinations. You can live your life completely without them. However there are a lot of places that will not allow you to visit, say hospitals and the majority of schools won't let you attend.

    This isn't a evil corporation thing this is a for the good of the human race kind of thing. You choose what side you are on and base it on whatever you want to believe.





    I hear you on the gulf war syndrome, I mean it has a huge statistical indicator that it was something from either Iraq or the military chemicals but I want to see the statistics that show there are more nonfunctioning adults now than in the past.

    Comparing rates of anything in the military against the non-military public is a statistical nightmare. My father was in the military and he got ALS. When he was dying he found out the the rates of ALS are much higher in the military than anywhere else excluding an island in the indonesia but is the military the cause? Do people that join the military have something in them that makes them more likely to get ALS? Is there a pollutant on a ship? Injections? Food? Just because there was that link it doesn't mean the military caused it and more than it means the military didn't cause it.

    It is so easy to bend statistics to what you want to hear but autistic kids in the military doesn't denote that the military is causing it. Hell for all we know the rigors of basic training causes a degradation of the sperm producing cells and they begin to encode an error which can lead to autism. If you sampled people that had similar physical exertions in the same time frame and their children showed the same propensity for autism then you could begin to assume that excessive physical stress for men in their 20's can be detrimental to their children's development. But it could honestly be anything. My father's ALS, could have been anything, he was a scientist as well, perhaps a chemical they used. He grew up in chicago, perhaps a pollutant. It is easy to point fingers at a culprit it is much much harder to actually prove that it was that. The problem with point fingers is you have already accepted it as the culprit and are now biased towards that basis. Hearing that the research was falsified didn't change the minds of all those vaccination causes autism people because they believe it and changing belief is much harder than anything else in the world. Just ask any theologist to question their belief.
    Two good posts, I was just in the process of responding to your first one, whatever the case we are exposed to far to many chemicals, as a good friend of mine who is a cancer researcher says "We cannot cure cancer if we continue to find new ways to poison ourselves"
    I think however in regardes to the military ect, we can use statistics to understand, my Brother In Law worked on a Test site in Nevada, he died from throat cancer which was something very common with those others who worked on the base, had not so many others died from it as well, they could have blamed it on who knows what.
    finally the government could not longer ignore and began paying out very small amounts of cash, but still never fully admitted to anything.
    I keep an open mind to it all, and personaly as I said before, I would rather we used caution rather than the run and gun attitude that only works well for short periods of time, sooner or later we have to deal with all the consequences of our actions, be it poor diet, fracking, nuclear testing, and who knwos what else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Yea the government tells you its ok, so it must be, just like GMO, again, there is absoluitely no logical reason to foce a vaccine on anyone when there is no threat of an imminent outbreak, the use Of vaccine and autism are according although personally I suspect it is do to many factors, not necessarily just one.
    This is the whole point of a vaccine, get the population in a position to fend of a potential outbreak before it starts. Vaccination after the outbreak is too late.

    I do feel sorry for you though, why after all the constant lies and misinformation the government puts forth daily, would you possibly believe anything they say? Why when you have the former executives of Major coporations running the FDA, EPA ect would you believe anything they have to say, do you really at that point believe they have your best interest at heart? Man, I want some of your happy pills if you do.
    I don't necessarily believe what the government says, I think we see reasons why it can't be trusted all the time. But when it comes to public health concerns I don't see any "conspiracies" brewing. Sometimes policy making isn't the greatest or most efficient within these agencies but I don't think they're run be evil people who don't care about public health. You mention that several government public health regulatory agencies are led by former corporate executives. Do you have any facts to back that statement up? Margaret Hamburg runs the FDA and she's a physician and the EPA is run by Bob Perciasepe who is the former COO of the National Audubon Society and long time EPA employee. Neither of these people have ever served as an executive of any corporation as near as I can tell.

    I guess the tangential point I'm making here is that you have a lot of thoughts on this and you make a lot of accusations but you don't back it up with fact.

    Actually no that is false, the amount of people, unable to function at a normal level has increased dramatically, all one has to do is think back to 30 years ago, and how many "off" people you knew, hardly any, now? there were so many autistic kids living on a Military Base a friend of mine was stationed at (he has two himself) they actually had a sign up warning of the presence of such children.
    This really is no surprise, the Military uses troops as little more than test subjects for major chemical companies.
    The article you cited argues that the apparent increase in autism cases is due to better screening, better diagnoses, etc and not an actual increase in the rate of autism. Again you're making strong statements that are not backed up by facts. And anecdotal evidence doesn't count, there's nothing statistically significant about your personal experience. I don't know, for me I think I knew more "off" people 20 years ago than I do now, probably because I run in a different circle now. If you could provide some references and statistics regarding the incidences of autism on military bases that would be very helpful. As others have said, military people may be exposed to a lot of unhealthy environments so the autism rates could be elevated compared to the general population. But I would argue the military bases are a special situation and that may not be relevant in terms of overall rates in the entire population. Again if you wouldn't mind providing your sources and references so we can take a look that would be very helpful.

    Again, Gulf war Syndrom is not fully known what is the cause, but what we do know is the government did its absolute best to cover it up for some time, that is ignorant, repugnant and why on earth again, you would give the Gov any credibility after consistant lie after lie is beyond me.
    I don't necessarily disagree with this point. I think there are some valid arguments against the action (or inaction) of the government on Gulf War Syndrome. When it comes to war, governments always lie and stretch the truth.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbikur View Post
    This is the whole point of a vaccine, get the population in a position to fend of a potential outbreak before it starts. Vaccination after the outbreak is too late.
    so lets pump people full of stuff that we are not fully sure of the side effects because we believe it is better than another potential outbreak we probably are already Immune to? :O


    I don't necessarily believe what the government says, I think we see reasons why it can't be trusted all the time. But when it comes to public health concerns I don't see any "conspiracies" brewing.Sometimes policy making isn't the greatest or most efficient within these agencies but I don't think they're run be evil people who don't care about public health
    Other than the Pelegra incident, Tuskeegee experiments, yellow fever experiments, Chemical experiments, sterilization of "undesirables" on and on.


    Sometimes policy making isn't the greatest or most efficient within these agencies but I don't think they're run be evil people who don't care about public health. You mention that several government public health regulatory agencies are led by former corporate executives. Do you have any facts to back that statement up? Margaret Hamburg runs the FDA and she's a physician and the EPA is run by Bob Perciasepe who is the former COO of the National Audubon Society and long time EPA employee. Neither of these people have ever served as an executive of any corporation as near as I can tell.
    Wait, hold on, you do not think that Major corporations who do anything to make money, would not try to do something such as get an inside man in? Did you ever Hear of Government Sachs? And do you know how the name came to be?
    Micheal Taylor former Monsantano Executive works within the FDA as Senior advisor to the commissioner.
    EPA Contaminated by Conflict of Interest | Feb. 13, 2013 | PBS NewsHour | PBS
    ■Three of the five panelists who urged delay had worked on industry's behalf in the Hinkley court cases.
    ■One of those scientists was retained by PG&E in the company’s ongoing chromium cleanup in Hinkley at the same time he was serving on the EPA panel.
    ■Another scientist who urged the EPA to wait for the American Chemistry Council studies served as a consultant on those studies.
    EPA chief denies conflict-of-interest allegations - seattlepi.com
    Michael Taylor, former Monsanto Vice President, is now the FDA Deputy Commissioner for Foods.

    Roger Beachy, former director of the Monsanto-funded Danforth Plant Science Center, is now the director of the USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture.

    Islam Siddiqui, Vice President of the Monsanto and Dupont-funded pesticide-promoting lobbying group, CropLife, is now the Agriculture Negotiator for the US Trade Representative.

    Rajiv Shah, former agricultural-development director for the pro-biotech Gates Foundation (a frequent Monsanto partner), served as Obama's USDA Under Secretary for Research Education and Economics and Chief Scientist and is now head of USAID.

    Solicitor General Elena Kagan, who took Monsanto's side against organic farmers in the Roundup Ready alfalfa case, has been nominated to the Supreme Court.

    Now, Ramona Romero, corporate counsel to DuPont, has been nominated by President Obama to serve as General Counsel for the U.S. Department of Agriculture.


    Ronnie Cummins: The Unholy Alliance: Monsanto, Dupont & Obama
    Al gore and his Carbon Scheme, how rich is he now again? Whats that number before and after he was in Office?


    I guess the tangential point I'm making here is that you have a lot of thoughts on this and you make a lot of accusations but you don't back it up with fact.


    The article you cited argues that the apparent increase in autism cases is due to better screening, better diagnoses, etc and not an actual increase in the rate of autism. Again you're making strong statements that are not backed up by facts. And anecdotal evidence doesn't count, there's nothing statistically significant about your personal experience. I don't know, for me I think I knew more "off" people 20 years ago than I do now, probably because I run in a different circle now. If you could provide some references and statistics regarding the incidences of autism on military bases that would be very helpful. As others have said, military people may be exposed to a lot of unhealthy environments so the autism rates could be elevated compared to the general population. But I would argue the military bases are a special situation and that may not be relevant in terms of overall rates in the entire population. Again if you wouldn't mind providing your sources and references so we can take a look that would be very helpful
    I will help further however as I do not blame you for wanting facts, although I suspect you probably do not care as in your mind, all is fine.
    Non-genetic factors play surprisingly large role in determining autism, says study by group - Office of Communications & Public Affairs - Stanford University School of Medicine
    From prior studies of shared autism in twins, scientists had estimated that 90 percent of autism risk was attributable to genes and only 10 percent to non-genetic environmental factors. But the new study — the largest ever of twins in which at least one in each pair has autism — shows almost the opposite: It found that genes account for 38 percent of autism risk, with environmental factors explaining the remaining 62 percent.



    I don't necessarily disagree with this point. I think there are some valid arguments against the action (or inaction) of the government on Gulf War Syndrome. When it comes to war, governments always lie and stretch the truth.
    Right like Campaign promises, Closing Club Gitmo, Ending the war On terror, Fixing the Economy, Fixing our Infrastructure, Working on the Jobless rate on and on.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    so lets pump people full of stuff that we are not fully sure of the side effects because we believe it is better than another potential outbreak we probably are already Immune to? :O
    I'm still not aware of any widespread problems with vaccinations. My children will get all the recommended vaccinations.

    Other than the Pelegra incident, Tuskeegee experiments, yellow fever experiments, Chemical experiments, sterilization of "undesirables" on and on.
    Some of these were perpetrated by the Dept of Defense and others were from another time with different sensibilities. They are all very unethical and I agree that with you that these are good examples of govt gone wrong. With today's culture anything on this scale would have been exposed so I don't believe stuff like this is necessarily happening now (although I am waiting with my eyes wide open to be convinced-I have a very open mind that can be changed if the evidence says it should be).

    Wait, hold on, you do not think that Major corporations who do anything to make money, would not try to do something such as get an inside man in? Did you ever Hear of Government Sachs? And do you know how the name came to be?
    Micheal Taylor former Monsantano Executive works within the FDA as Senior advisor to the commissioner.
    EPA Contaminated by Conflict of Interest | Feb. 13, 2013 | PBS NewsHour | PBS
    ■Three of the five panelists who urged delay had worked on industry's behalf in the Hinkley court cases.
    ■One of those scientists was retained by PG&E in the company’s ongoing chromium cleanup in Hinkley at the same time he was serving on the EPA panel.
    ■Another scientist who urged the EPA to wait for the American Chemistry Council studies served as a consultant on those studies.
    EPA chief denies conflict-of-interest allegations - seattlepi.com
    Michael Taylor, former Monsanto Vice President, is now the FDA Deputy Commissioner for Foods.

    Roger Beachy, former director of the Monsanto-funded Danforth Plant Science Center, is now the director of the USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture.

    Islam Siddiqui, Vice President of the Monsanto and Dupont-funded pesticide-promoting lobbying group, CropLife, is now the Agriculture Negotiator for the US Trade Representative.

    Rajiv Shah, former agricultural-development director for the pro-biotech Gates Foundation (a frequent Monsanto partner), served as Obama's USDA Under Secretary for Research Education and Economics and Chief Scientist and is now head of USAID.

    Solicitor General Elena Kagan, who took Monsanto's side against organic farmers in the Roundup Ready alfalfa case, has been nominated to the Supreme Court.

    Now, Ramona Romero, corporate counsel to DuPont, has been nominated by President Obama to serve as General Counsel for the U.S. Department of Agriculture.


    Ronnie Cummins: The Unholy Alliance: Monsanto, Dupont & Obama
    Al gore and his Carbon Scheme, how rich is he now again? Whats that number before and after he was in Office?
    Now we're getting somewhere-nicely done. There is no doubt that the EPA is famous for dragging their feet on getting stuff done. It is a very political agency and these examples you provide illustrates why this is so. I actually agree with you that the EPA needs work. That being said they get stuff done, albeit at a very slow pace, which can be detrimental to ordinary citizens at times. Not perfect and it can use an overhaul.

    I will help further however as I do not blame you for wanting facts, although I suspect you probably do not care as in your mind, all is fine.
    Non-genetic factors play surprisingly large role in determining autism, says study by group - Office of Communications & Public Affairs - Stanford University School of Medicine
    From prior studies of shared autism in twins, scientists had estimated that 90 percent of autism risk was attributable to genes and only 10 percent to non-genetic environmental factors. But the new study — the largest ever of twins in which at least one in each pair has autism — shows almost the opposite: It found that genes account for 38 percent of autism risk, with environmental factors explaining the remaining 62 percent.
    This is a good reference that shows that environmental factors play a very important role in determining whether someone gets autism or not. I believe this is a completely valid study but it says nothing about increasing incidences in autism, only that the cause is not as highly genetically linked as was previously thought.

    I ask questions all the time about a lot of different things (govt policy, economy, bikes, sports, whatever). However my opinions are based on fact. So yes, I suppose I have to read something first but from there I formulate opinion and ask questions. I don't take things at face value and as you can see I always ask for the facts, not opinion, when it comes to assertions about something controversial. As I stated above my opinion can always be changed if evidence contradicting my view is presented. So as you say "in my mind everything is fine" is not true. I only ask for facts so that I can assess them and modify my opinion accordingly.

    In the case of autism I think it's very important to ask questions and ask for facts because so much disinformation and bad information has been disseminated as to the risk factors and causes. And this has real public health consequences in that parents are choosing in increasing numbers to not vaccinate their children.

  60. #60
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    The vaccination debate elicits some strong opinions. I think at the end of the day, there are arguments for both sides, but there is no hard evidence that I have seen to suggest any govt conspiracy on vaccination programs. I think Blurr is correct to question a lot of what he mentions, but that can easily devolve into paranoia. Circumstance put alongside human nature will always throw up some bad sh*t, but I don't think the 'government' is necessarily to blame for any widespread conspiracy. In my mind it is, generally speaking, more the actions of a few morally bankrupt individuals who have their own agenda, and are able to influence those around them, rather than a wider 'plot'. Vaccination programs have done much good in eradication of certain disease types, and I myself have had most of the jabs available, with effects limited to fairly minor brain rot...
    It's all Here. Now.

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    The revolving door Blurr writes about is a FACT.

  62. #62
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    Something a little more worrying to my mind:

    "One mega-company is gradually taking over our global food supply, poisoning our politics and putting the planet’s food future in serious danger. To stop it we need to expose and break up Monsanto’s worldwide grip.

    Monsanto, the chemical giant that gave us poisons like Agent Orange and DDT, has a super-profitable racket. Step 1: Develop pesticides and genetically modified (GM) seeds designed to resist them, patent the seeds, prohibit farmers from replanting their seeds year to year, then send undercover agents out to investigate and sue farmers who don’t comply. Step 2: Spend millions lobbying government officials and contributing to political campaigns, get former Monsanto bigwigs into top government jobs, and then work with them to weaken regulations and push Monsanto goods into markets across the world.

    As long as US law allows corporations to spend unlimited sums to influence policy, they can often buy the laws they want. Last year, Monsanto and biotech giants spent a whopping $45m to kill a ballot initiative that would have labelled GMO products just in California, despite 82 percent of Americans wanting to know if they are buying GM. And just this month, the company helped ram through the "Monsanto Protection Act,” that blocks courts from stopping the sale of a product even if they’ve been wrongly approved by the government.

    Monsanto’s power in the US gives them a launch pad to dominate across the world. But brave farmers and activists from the EU, to Brazil, to India and Canada are resisting and starting to win.

    We’re at a global tipping point. If enough of us pledge just R4 now, we can join forces to break Monsanto’s grip on our politics and our food and help stop the corporate capture of our governments. Avaaz will only process the pledges if we get enough to make a real difference:

    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_mon...Jyilbb&v=24353

    Monsanto is driving an industrial farming takeover -- trampling small farmers and small businesses as vast ‘monoculture’ farms of single crops leech the land of nutrients, diminish genetic diversity, and create dependency on fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals. The irony is, it’s not clear that the decimation of natural, sustainable farming has brought any boom in crop yields. Just more profit for the corporations. Our governments should step in, but Monsanto’s lobbying obstructs them.

    Monsanto’s near monopoly is breath-taking, with patent rights over 96% of the GM seeds planted in the US. And despite concerns about health and safety, the same patents allow Monsanto to prevent any farmer or scientist from testing their seeds! Still, a few countries have banned or restricted Monsanto products.

    They claim their products cost less, but often farmers are lured into multi-year contracts, then seed prices rise, and they have buy new seed each season and use more herbicides to keep out ‘superweeds’. In India, the situation is so dire that one cotton area has been called ‘the suicide belt’, as tens of thousands of the poorest farmers have taken their lives to escape crippling debt.

    But farmers and scientists are also fighting back -- and winning. One group in India has helped win three patent battles against the corporations, and in Brazil five million farmers sued Monsanto for unfair collection of royalties, and won a $2 billion payout! Scientists are campaigning for sustainable agriculture models, and just last week 1.5 million of us joined the fight against non-GM patents in the EU.

    Only a massive, global, united force can stand up to Monsanto and the corporate capture of our governments. Let’s expose this dominance of our democracies, help farmers speak out, challenge unjust laws and patents, and go head to head with the corporate lobbies. Pledge R4 to support action now:

    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_mon...Jyilbb&v=24353

    We are running out of time. As we confront massive environmental, climate and food crises, we need sustainable agriculture and innovation, but that is best done by multiple farmers and scientists who know what works best in different ecosystems, rather than one monolith driven by their own profit, taking control our food future.

    This corporate Goliath is increasing in power across our world. But if our 21 million strong community stands together, we have a chance. Avaaz members have repeatedly stood up against the world's biggest bullies, and won. Now it is time for us to go big to save our policies from special interests, protect our food supply, and get justice for poor farmers.

    With hope and determination,

    Alice, Oli, Joseph, Ricken, Pascal, Chris, Michelle, Emily, and the whole Avaaz team

    MORE INFORMATION

    Seeds of discontent (Texas Observer):
    A Texas Organic Cotton Farmer Takes On Monsanto.

    Monsanto sued small farmers to protect seed patents, report says (The Guardian):
    Monsanto sued small famers to protect seed patents, report says | Environment | guardian.co.uk

    Political contribution discloslures (Monsanto):
    Monsanto | Political Disclosures

    The Real Monsanto Protection Act: How The GMO Giant Corrupts Regulators And Consolidates Its Power (ThinkProgress):
    The Real Monsanto Protection Act: How The GMO Giant Corrupts Regulators And Consolidates Its Power | ThinkProgress

    Monsanto Protection Act put GM companies above the federal courts (The Guardian):
    Monsanto Protection Act put GM companies above the federal courts | John Vidal | Environment | guardian.co.uk

    Biodiversity for food and agriculture (UN Food and Agriculture Organization):
    FAO : SD Dimensions : Environment : Environmental conventions and agreements

    Monsanto’s harvest of fear (Vanity Fair):
    Monsanto's Harvest of Fear | Vanity Fair

    Wikileaks shows US pushes GM on EU (The Guardian):
    WikiLeaks: US targets EU over GM crops | World news | The Guardian

    USDA Greenlights Monsanto's Utterly Useless New GMO Corn (Mother Jones):
    USDA Greenlights Monsanto's Utterly Useless New GMO Corn | Mother Jones

    Crop Scientists Say Biotechnology Seed Companies Are Thwarting Research (New York Times):
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/bu...crop.html?_r=0

    Additional sources (Avaaz):
    http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_monsanto_sources/"
    It's all Here. Now.

  63. #63
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    While I agree with you Rockerc, no politics, forum rules

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    While I agree with you Rockerc, no politics, forum rules
    YES, this like anything else that might concern an adult, is forbidden.

    Best we stick to talking about smoking illegal substances & which way our toilet paper comes off the roll.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    While I agree with you Rockerc, no politics, forum rules
    Hardly politics Blurr, more about corporate greed, which as far as I know is not a dodgy topic here, and rather transcends mere politics unless anyone wants to go making it that. Monsanto has been up to their dubious shenanigans for far longer than any one of the usual administrative suspects have been in power, and they are very good at bypassing politics and getting what they want no matter what. As far as I am concerned, they are the enemy, not some mouthpiece in the White House or on Capitol Hill.

    Chum or RC, can we get a ruling on this?
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Distinctions matter, gentlemen.

  67. #67
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    I have been thinking about a response to blurr concerning the style of his posts. It is clear to me that blurr feels strongly about the subject matter and has given thought to the position he defends. However, the style is inflammatory and argumentative instead of emotionally collected and informative. It makes me wonder if he needs to convince others in order to validate his own position on the matter. Furthermore, Blurr, you might win some, but you lost this one. I won't be picking or sustaining any type of fight with you, you are invisible to me. My position, is that speaking to others in this manner is a large part of the dissolution of humankind and I will not be a party to it. I should include a brief note to bike abuser, be above the game that blurr plays.
    Further, I apologize to rockcrusher if my comment about being a Canadian downer was taken personally. I simply wished to say that the Canadians I have known have not been quite so jaded and so I simply thought that coming to the US had a poor effect on his disposition and as an American who sometimes wants to be a Canadian, I'm sorry.

    I would also like to say that if we are discussing society, agriculture and business practices we are skirting the line with politics. I do not have an issue with this personally, as long as we do so in a civil argumentative manner devoid of personal insults. In addition, earlier in this post and briefly, there were examples given to convey a point that discussed religious figures, Thor was a Norse god and Poseidon was the Greek god of the Seas. So we have already touched on religion in a derogatory manner. The point I am trying to make goes something like this, it is the mark of an intelligent and creative mind to be able discuss and understand a thing without believing in that thing. If we are to save humankind we should understand that we must be able to reach others and build bridges using our commonalities towards sustainability.
    I have thoughts on Monsanto, but that will have to wait for another post as I need to read all the linked articles.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    I have been thinking about a response to blurr concerning the style of his posts. It is clear to me that blurr feels strongly about the subject matter and has given thought to the position he defends. However, the style is inflammatory and argumentative instead of emotionally collected and informative. It makes me wonder if he needs to convince others in order to validate his own position on the matter. Furthermore, Blurr, you might win some, but you lost this one. I won't be picking or sustaining any type of fight with you, you are invisible to me. My position, is that speaking to others in this manner is a large part of the dissolution of humankind and I will not be a party to it. I should include a brief note to bike abuser, be above the game that blurr plays.
    Further, I apologize to rockcrusher if my comment about being a Canadian downer was taken personally. I simply wished to say that the Canadians I have known have not been quite so jaded and so I simply thought that coming to the US had a poor effect on his disposition and as an American who sometimes wants to be a Canadian, I'm sorry.
    none take. I have thick skin and know my move to the US has effected my opinions of things. Perhaps the sheltering effect of canada in the 90's perhaps my own maturing as an adult, spouse and father.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    I would also like to say that if we are discussing society, agriculture and business practices we are skirting the line with politics. I do not have an issue with this personally, as long as we do so in a civil argumentative manner devoid of personal insults. In addition, earlier in this post and briefly, there were examples given to convey a point that discussed religious figures, Thor was a Norse god and Poseidon was the Greek god of the Seas. So we have already touched on religion in a derogatory manner. The point I am trying to make goes something like this, it is the mark of an intelligent and creative mind to be able discuss and understand a thing without believing in that thing. If we are to save humankind we should understand that we must be able to reach others and build bridges using our commonalities towards sustainability.
    I have thoughts on Monsanto, but that will have to wait for another post as I need to read all the linked articles.
    I think with a moderator playing in the thread it gives a little more sanction to its viability as long as people don't begin huffing and puffing and attacking ad nauseum. I stopped participating when I felt i had said my piece. It isn't my job to ensure that people take my point of view and all too often the political threads forget this. If everyone just said their piece, add addenda to future questions and then went on to other things threads wouldn't devolve in such an epic manner. The anonymity of the internet and the divisiveness of the topics won't allow this to happen because the same thing happens when we discuss flat pedals or AM bikes or 29 vs. other wheelsizes and those are just passions of our recreation. When we discuss things that truly strike at our core being we just can't shut up.

    For me it took one "discussion" about the WTC conspiracy to make me never discuss it again and one conversation with a creationist while I was biologist to never discuss that again either. I won't win those arguments nor is there need to win as belief is belief and whether I believe that hydraulic brakes are better than cable disks it doesn't mean the person posting against me will have the same stance and if both people tried both but came to dissenting opinions, mine won't sway his and his won't sway mine and there isn't really anything that they can say that will make me revisit my opinion. Now politics and religion and social issues are much more complex than varying types of bike disk brakes and opinions can be changed but for a lot of these topics we have set opinions and the rebuttals we hear are the same things over and over again that we have already parsed and determined as not effecting our opinions and that there is why the politics doesn't work on MTBR because nothing causes anger to simmer over into other discussions than dissenting opinions that are set because there is nothing more to say about them that might sway the conversation from a less confrontational tone to a more understanding tone. When you add multiple users all on different sides it only gets worse. This disconnect will spill over into other threads, PM's and even real life. I have seen it, I have had to stop users, just because they have a philosophical disagreement on the internet.

    And the real reason we come here is to chat about bikes and what makes them so awesome and why we like riding them. We like to talk about playing and real life issues should always be a side note when it comes to the serious discussion of play.
    Try this: HTFU

  69. #69
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    I like where this thread is going so far. Overall I'm impressed with the views and opinions expressed here.

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    Okay, okay, it's Salon, but the article is somewhat interesting for discussion purposes concerning conspiracy theories and why people choose to believe them, if it is a choice and not just a consequence of the emotional brain searching for control over life's immeasurable and unpredicatable onslaught. As I have said previously, the knowledge of why does not give me any increased ease concerning the actions of mankind and life as it happens to me personally. I know I have no control as it is an illusion, an oasis in the desert. I don't always have control over myself. How could I truly have any measure of control over others or life? Certainly, influence can exist and one can choose how life affects them, but the ability to have control is a fallacy.

    Why people believe in conspiracy theories - Salon.com

    One quick question concerning the earlier Monsanto posts. Is the issue business practices, GMO, or both? I'm not sure I would want to get involved in the discussion concerning GMOs considering the hubbub around the question to vaccinate or not to vaccinate. Certainly, Monsanto can be a bit ruthless concerning its profit margin. Also, would this be as much an issue if the business of Monsanto was something other than food? Does that question make everyone think of Walmart?
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Okay, okay, it's Salon, but the article is somewhat interesting for discussion purposes concerning conspiracy theories and why people choose to believe them, if it is a choice and not just a consequence of the emotional brain searching for control over life's immeasurable and unpredicatable onslaught. As I have said previously, the knowledge of why does not give me any increased ease concerning the actions of mankind and life as it happens to me personally. I know I have no control as it is an illusion, an oasis in the desert. I don't always have control over myself. How could I truly have any measure of control over others or life? Certainly, influence can exist and one can choose how life affects them, but the ability to have control is a fallacy.

    Why people believe in conspiracy theories - Salon.com
    Salon is good for opinion pieces, whether you like the opinion or not. So I've always been interested in conspiracy theories, at least in the fun, diversional kind of way. And conspiracy theories used to be a diversion in only a few people's lives before the internet. Now, as we've been touching on here, what does it mean for society as a whole when conspiracy becomes the rule. The story. The mainstream. I think we've crossed that threashold. Or at least it feels as if we have, as rocker emphasized in his original post. What is it about our society/culture that demands abosolute control over everything. Do we need conspiracies to make us feel better about our willingness to give up liberties and rights? Or do we need conspiracies in order to stand up and fight for those rights? And oddly, if some secret cabal is after these rights, in many cases I don't think a conspiracy is needed to get them. I don't blame the powers that be. I blame the people. I think there is something narcissistic/solopsistic at work here. Something deep in the American psyche. I don't think people are stupider now than in the past. I think people are so self-obsessed that what makes for community--family, culture, country, region, religion--is more ideological than a practical part of everyday life. However, I'd guess I understand the psychology of the individual far more than I understand the pshchology of a large numbers of people.

    So back to conspiracy theory. Like I mentioned, I enjoy looking at the evidence for conspiracies, and thinking about the implications. I follow along as the evidence mounts. Where I'm turned off is the moment when the "why" comes about. Why is this "conspiracy" happening. The "why" is almost always a dead giveaway to the prejudices of the "true believer" and rarely a common sense explanation for "why" something happened.

    Philosophers obsess about the nature of truth. One obsession is the idea of "Forbidden Knowledge". Essentially, the idea that people only have to uncover some secret key to unlocking the mysteries of existence so that there is one best way for the human mind to approach existence. That if "truth" exists at all, it has yet to be found. This idea can be fairly profound when applied to philosophy, but downright dangerous in the hands of an unstable person who thinks they have unlocked the key to the mystery. And more dangerous still when it becomes the psychology of a people.
    Last edited by Slow Danger; 04-25-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    This idea can be fairly profound when applied to philosophy, but downright dangerous in the hands of an unstable person who thinks they have unlocked the key to the mystery. And more dangerous still when it becomes the psychology of a people.
    I know I am taking the quote slightly out of context, but then you have the instance illustrated here:

    Glenn Beck conspiracy theory: What's his evidence?

    Which truly gets my goat. The use of a 'conspiracy theory' to gain political currency by manipulation of the masses. I am sure there are other instances of just such things that have been used by what Mr Beck might describe as the "commie lefties" out there, that is equally despicable in my book, and my intention is not to further polarise opinions by demonising Beck, he is just such a good example of what I hate about humankind sometimes!
    RC you put your points very well sir! It has to be tough to keep an even keel sometimes.
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Here's more about the belief in conspiracy theories as a means to emotional stability for those too emotional or tired to understand that the world is a naturally complex and mostly unpredictable place of existence. I admit that the butterfly effect is a bit of a conspiracy theory in itself, but at least it allows for a complex view of the world. The use of a conspiracy theory as one may use Akham's razor in order to explain world and personal events is an unfortunate reality for some. The razor rule is usually meant to be a tool to streamline thought into actions as a means to achieve an experimentally provable result, not to be used as a misguided rationale that proves intelligent design without any actual proof. Certainly, one pursues a path that leads to a greater understanding but one should also know and expect that the answer to one question usually leads to asking related questions and subsequently a search for those answers. It appears to me, that it is the search for those answers that tires the mind and the conspiracy theory allows one to simply believe: Oh well that explains it, don't have to search or think anymore about that, time to put up my tired feet and crack the beverage of choice, what's on TV? Are we just too tired to think? Is there just too much information and opinion out there to allow for a sound mind? Now I sound like Henry Rollins in Johnny Mnemonic, something about information overload. The real danger of a conspiracy theory is that once it has been accepted as truth, it appears it cannot be unaccepted as easily as it is believed once more information is uncovered. Why does belief for some also equal a crystallized or plasticized mindset? In my opinion, the pursuit of truth should allow for one to entertain opposing theories and additional information and build upon personal knowledge and belief, not stifle or stagnate the mind, in order to reaffirm that belief. I am saddened that the pursuit is ultimately too tiring for many and the result, not entirely unexpected, is to simply give up. It's about the fight and not the defeat. It's about the path and not the destination. The perseverance/fight to continue, let's call it curiosity, the pursuit of knowledge and thus a fuller life is the point. Curiosity is the shield against the stagnation/dissolution of humankind. Stay curious.

    Moon Landing Faked!!!—Why People Believe in Conspiracy Theories: Scientific American

    Having found the conspiracy theory post, I beginning to wonder if I'm posting in the wrong place.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbhammercycle View Post
    Having found the conspiracy theory post, I beginning to wonder if I'm posting in the wrong place.
    Nope. I'm guessing the only 5 people on mtbr who care about this discussion are already in here.

  75. #75
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    Heheheh! Suits me, there's a place and time for everything
    It's all Here. Now.

  76. #76
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    Hey Mods, I noticed that Bikeabuser and Blurr have been on timeout for about a month now. I was just wondering if they were forgotten or something? If they're not actually banned maybe you could reinstate them? They were getting combative for awhile but if they've served their time maybe they can come back?

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