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Thread: Climate change

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    Climate change

    I'm not much of a climate change junkie but.......just think of all of the carbon emissions I am reducing by ditching my car for a bike. The Hollywood moguls can't blame me for global warming. But, shouldn't those Hollywood types take a look at themselves. For example, I read that Leonardo DiCaprio, one of Hollywood's biggest advocates of anti-global warming policies, jetted to a global climate conference in a private jet. Why not set an example and travel in coach on a commercial airliner to reduce emissions? And why doesn't Leo follow my example and ditch his cars for a bike?

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    Ah, the one thing that Trumps ( pun intended ) global warming for the elite. Having to deal with the masses.
    Maybe he has an electric jet. Lol
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    And Jefferson wrote "all men are created equal" and owned people. Heck, he raped one of them. You can be right, even if you do wrong.
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    But, they can also just be wrong. Pretty sure Mt. Kilauea is a gross polluter that trumps all others combined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    But, they can also just be wrong. Pretty sure Mt. Kilauea is a gross polluter that trumps all others combined.
    No its pretty clear that volcanism is not making signifcant contribution to the current warming trend:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...ing-the-world/
    "Human industry emits 100x more CO2 than volcanic activity"


    The volcano argument is wrong in two ways:
    1) If volcanoes actually increased greenhouse gas (which they do, but not a lot of), you would need an increase in volcanism, for it to trigger an increase in greenhouse-induced warming. There is not a significant increase in volcanism in the prior 100 years.

    2) True that volcanoes are always causing pollution, but, this form of pollution tends to cool the planet, not warm it (relatively speaking volcanoes produce more particulate which blocks the sun, and less CO2 or other greenhouse gas which blocks reflected sun radiation from escaping the atmosphere).

    Adding Human-generated CO2 at the volumes we are adding is what changes the system.

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    Here's my thing... Whether or not you believe that climate change is, at least in part, man-made (and I do), why not do what's right regardless? Minimize your footprint, think and act in an ecologically ethical manner, recycle, reuse, reduce waste, use energy saving techniques and products wherever possible. I mean, holy crap, we're treating our planet like an f-ing pig sty!
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    A lot of people do not take climate change seriously because their little piece of the world is "ok", for the moment. However what they fail to realize is that all the major ecosystems on the planet are interconnected in one way or another. So when one fails, it is only a matter of time before the dominoes begin tumbling.

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    The world is overpopulated by half. No one want's to talk about that though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Here's my thing... Whether or not you believe that climate change is, at least in part, man-made (and I do), why not do what's right regardless? Minimize your footprint, think and act in an ecologically ethical manner, recycle, reuse, reduce waste, use energy saving techniques and products wherever possible. I mean, holy crap, we're treating our planet like an f-ing pig sty!
    Yeah.

    Visit Beijing, or SLC in the winter, and tell me that you don't want emissions regulated.

    Alternately, tell me that you want to pay MORE for products you use, like plastic bags, aluminum cans, etc. Those things are much, much cheaper after recycling as opposed to new production.

    Or, tell me that you want to poison the water you drink.

    If that fails, ask them what the main driver of instability and terrorism in the world is. Hint: not religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brodino View Post
    A lot of people do not take climate change seriously because their little piece of the world is "ok", for the moment. However what they fail to realize is that all the major ecosystems on the planet are interconnected in one way or another. So when one fails, it is only a matter of time before the dominoes begin tumbling.
    Yes we're already starting to see this, to some extent. Syria is seen as a purely political conflict but they have been in a severe drought for some time (a once-in-500-year event or even once-in-1000-year event). This played a major role in the civil war:

    "The drought caused 75 percent of Syria's farms to fail and 85 percent of livestock to die between 2006 and 2011, according to the United Nations. The collapse in crop yields forced as many as 1.5 million Syrians to migrate to urban centers, like Homs and Damascus. . . The Pentagon has long identified climate change as a "threat magnifier," a factor that can aggravate already existing political fault lines. And the G7 issued a report in June warning that climate change "will aggravate already fragile situations and may contribute to social upheaval and even violent conflict."


    The conflict then spilled over into global politics, caused mass migration which has increased tensions between the west and the middle-east, and significantly raised tensions between Russia and NATO.

    So even when we are directly affected by climate change, its either not that obvious, or we easily forget and / or discount it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Yes we're already starting to see this, to some extent. Syria is seen as a purely political conflict but they have been in a severe drought for some time (a once-in-500-year event or even once-in-1000-year event). This played a major role in the civil war:

    "The drought caused 75 percent of Syria's farms to fail and 85 percent of livestock to die between 2006 and 2011, according to the United Nations. The collapse in crop yields forced as many as 1.5 million Syrians to migrate to urban centers, like Homs and Damascus. . . The Pentagon has long identified climate change as a "threat magnifier," a factor that can aggravate already existing political fault lines. And the G7 issued a report in June warning that climate change "will aggravate already fragile situations and may contribute to social upheaval and even violent conflict."


    The conflict then spilled over into global politics, caused mass migration which has increased tensions between the west and the middle-east, and significantly raised tensions between Russia and NATO.

    So even when we are directly affected by climate change, its either not that obvious, or we easily forget and / or discount it.
    Yep. Most of the major conflicts today are drought related.

    Those areas are GREAT for recruitment for terrorist organizations. Pretty easy to get a 16 year old to sign up when he's starving, and so is his family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    The world is overpopulated by half. No one want's to talk about that though.
    Yup! Have any of you ever seen or know anything about the Georgia Guidestones? I think the population statement is WAAAAY off, but take a look.
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    Wait wha...?!? Such a potentially explosive thread and all I see is good sense?! Nice! Encouraging for a change...
    It's all Here. Now.

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    Having grown up listening to Walter Cronkite in the 1960's report the coming ice age I have to say that the flip flop has done much harm to the efforts to get the populace to buy in. The profiteers haven't helped either. How many times has the threat of "global warming" been used to create money out of thin air? Meanwhile many people view it as another scheme to redistribute wealth, usually at the expense of the people that can least afford it The e-mail scandal that had scientists conspiring to alter data? As usual, greed and self interest have sabotaged many worthy efforts, while those in power are viewed with suspicion as they continue living a life of excess while professing to tell everyone else how to live. Hypocritical? In many cases, yes. Who really needs to effect change? I don't pretend to know any answers but I can tell when someone is pissing on my leg and all too often that has been the case. Just my observation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Yup! Have any of you ever seen or know anything about the Georgia Guidestones? I think the population statement is WAAAAY off, but take a look.
    Thanks. I just looked it up. Interesting stuff. It is in my state too and I knew nothing about it! I agree the population figure is far from reality but if you throw in another world war with the weapons available now, it might not be far off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Yep. Most of the major conflicts today are drought related.

    Those areas are GREAT for recruitment for terrorist organizations. Pretty easy to get a 16 year old to sign up when he's starving, and so is his family.

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    Yup, exactly. You've probably seen it in person. Thank you for your service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Having grown up listening to Walter Cronkite in the 1960's report the coming ice age I have to say that the flip flop has done much harm to the efforts to get the populace to buy in. The profiteers haven't helped either. How many times has the threat of "global warming" been used to create money out of thin air? Meanwhile many people view it as another scheme to redistribute wealth, usually at the expense of the people that can least afford it The e-mail scandal that had scientists conspiring to alter data? As usual, greed and self interest have sabotaged many worthy efforts, while those in power are viewed with suspicion as they continue living a life of excess while professing to tell everyone else how to live. Hypocritical? In many cases, yes. Who really needs to effect change? I don't pretend to know any answers but I can tell when someone is pissing on my leg and all too often that has been the case. Just my observation.
    Spot on. Very often if the messenger is flawed in any way then the message is discounted and forgotten often to society's detriment. I do not think any one person, group or country has all the answers right now but with dialogue, and we the citizens of this planet actively engaging in our communities and beyond, there may be hope.
    Last edited by Brodino; 06-02-2017 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Spelling

  19. #19
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    I think Leonardo should be allowed to fly First Class on the commercial airliner. He's earned it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    And why doesn't Leo follow my example and ditch his cars for a bike?
    Is it possible he's a hypocrite?

    I don't understand why humans expect the world to stay the same, just so that it's convenient for them.

    Look at earth's history, it's pretty dramatic. Not much of the land we walk on today is where it used to be, we know that some places have been much hotter, lots of places have been much colder, animals have been much bigger. Yip, a lot has changed and it's worth remembering that we had nothing to do with it. The world threw out all that upheaval all on its lonesome.

    So it should play nice now, because we say so? We're flees on a dog, just along for the ride. Personally, I reckon the dog is about to scratch and we aren't remotely ready.

  21. #21
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    Most population scientist agree that between fresh water supplies and available crop space, the earth will handle a max of approx. 9.5B people. When I was born in 1962, we were at approx. 3.5B. Here we are only 55 years later and have more than exceeded the 7B mark. Given that rate of growth, we should be at the bursting point in 10 to 15 years, tops.

    Ripe for a catastrophic event, the likes of which have not been seen in human history. Unless of course, the all-seeing, all-knowing deity, who loves us and wants us to be happy, intervenes.

    Where's that popcorn thread?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    When I was born in 1962, we were at approx. 3.5B. Here we are only 55 years later and have more than exceeded the 7B mark. Given that rate of growth, we should be at the bursting point in 10 to 15 years, tops.
    If only they would quite trying to save all those starving Africans the problem would be solved eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Ripe for a catastrophic event, the likes of which have not been seen in human history.



    It is happening now, in slow motion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It is happening now, in slow motion.
    It's scary as hell and I really worry about what's going to happen for my kids and their kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krel View Post
    It's scary as hell and I really worry about what's going to happen for my kids and their kids.


    Yep. And it's pure folly to think we can stop it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Yep. And it's pure folly to think we can stop it.
    I don't think we can stop it, I think we can mitigate it somewhat, but for the most part humans are stupid and shortsighted and won't do anything at all until it's too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Having grown up listening to Walter Cronkite in the 1960's report the coming ice age I have to say that the flip flop has done much harm to the efforts to get the populace to buy in. The profiteers haven't helped either. How many times has the threat of "global warming" been used to create money out of thin air? Meanwhile many people view it as another scheme to redistribute wealth, usually at the expense of the people that can least afford it The e-mail scandal that had scientists conspiring to alter data? As usual, greed and self interest have sabotaged many worthy efforts, while those in power are viewed with suspicion as they continue living a life of excess while professing to tell everyone else how to live. Hypocritical? In many cases, yes. Who really needs to effect change? I don't pretend to know any answers but I can tell when someone is pissing on my leg and all too often that has been the case. Just my observation.
    I'm not trying to be a jerk the but 'Ice Age' story is really a straw man - propped up as evidence that science predicts all kinds of things and then easily knocked over because it was wrong.

    The global cooling stuff was a limited set of articles by a few scientists in the early 70s, and never came anywhere near the magnitude of scientific consensus and evidence that we have for global warming. Its like comparing a 7 y.o's little league baseball team to the winner of last years World Series, they are orders of magnitude different in what they are.

    Its similar with the email scandal - extremely small in the grand scheme. Are thousands of scientists from a hundred different countries all conspiring to falsify data? When data and conclusions are wrong, there is significant motive for other scientists to prove it and it comes out.

    Scientists are an introverted, egotistical, skeptical bunch who silently compete fiercely with each other for fame and notoriety and love shoving it their competitors faces when they are truly wrong. Those who successfully prove things wrong, going against what was thought to be settled science, get book deals, grants, company investment in their labs - there is great motive to do it - it's a self-regulating market of ideas. Do you really think they are all colluding? Why do we not have dissenting scientists coming out all over to reveal and refute it all over the world? There are dissenters but its a small percentage. One email scandal is your smoking gun for the whole thing?

    Secondly, what you are doing trying to refute science by anecdote. The whole point of science is to collect and analyze data, present it as evidence, with a detailed write-up of your methods and how you reached your conclusions, such that anyone can recreate and/or refute your conclusions. Over time, as other scientists collect data that agrees or disagrees with that data, we either reach consensus or we don't.

    What we have on climate change is a very strong consensus across many scientific disciplines . . . sure there are still disputes, but there are always disputes in the scientific community about almost everything - the presence of those disputes isn't proof that the entire thing is false, you must consider the preponderance of evidence: which, on climate, points very strongly towards anthropogenic global warming.

    The 'global cooling' argument, and the email scandal, doesn't try to do any of that - it tries to refute mountains of science with a story about how science was once wrong. Science was wrong about many things for years until science proved otherwise, this is its purpose for existing. Please, if you want to refute science, do it with science, not anecdote.

  28. #28
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    The Paris Accords are a joke with no punchline. It accomplishes nothing other make some activists feel good.

    Whether the US stays in or pulls out will make no difference to climate change.
    So many trails... so little time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by krel View Post
    It's scary as hell and I really worry about what's going to happen for my kids and their kids.
    Part of the reason I never had kids.
    It's tremendously big, and tremendously wet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    The Paris Accords are a joke with no punchline. It accomplishes nothing other make some activists feel good.

    Whether the US stays in or pulls out will make no difference to climate change.
    What? Are you serious?
    It's tremendously big, and tremendously wet.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    The Paris Accords are a joke with no punchline. It accomplishes nothing other make some activists feel good.

    Whether the US stays in or pulls out will make no difference to climate change.
    Trump misrepresented the degrees data yesterday. The Paris accord has more temperature benefit than he indicated:

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN18S6L0

    "If we don't do anything, we might shoot over 5 degrees or more and that would be catastrophic," said John Reilly, the co-director of the program, adding that MIT's scientists had had no contact with the White House and were not offered a chance to explain their work."

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    No its pretty clear that volcanism is not making signifcant contribution to the current warming trend:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...ing-the-world/
    "Human industry emits 100x more CO2 than volcanic activity"


    The volcano argument is wrong in two ways:
    1) If volcanoes actually increased greenhouse gas (which they do, but not a lot of), you would need an increase in volcanism, for it to trigger an increase in greenhouse-induced warming. There is not a significant increase in volcanism in the prior 100 years.

    2) True that volcanoes are always causing pollution, but, this form of pollution tends to cool the planet, not warm it (relatively speaking volcanoes produce more particulate which blocks the sun, and less CO2 or other greenhouse gas which blocks reflected sun radiation from escaping the atmosphere).

    Adding Human-generated CO2 at the volumes we are adding is what changes the system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk the but 'Ice Age' story is really a straw man - propped up as evidence that science predicts all kinds of things and then easily knocked over because it was wrong.

    The global cooling stuff was a limited set of articles by a few scientists in the early 70s, and never came anywhere near the magnitude of scientific consensus and evidence that we have for global warming. Its like comparing a 7 y.o's little league baseball team to the winner of last years World Series, they are orders of magnitude different in what they are.

    Its similar with the email scandal - extremely small in the grand scheme. Are thousands of scientists from a hundred different countries all conspiring to falsify data? When data and conclusions are wrong, there is significant motive for other scientists to prove it and it comes out.

    Scientists are an introverted, egotistical, skeptical bunch who silently compete fiercely with each other for fame and notoriety and love shoving it their competitors faces when they are truly wrong. Those who successfully prove things wrong, going against what was thought to be settled science, get book deals, grants, company investment in their labs - there is great motive to do it - it's a self-regulating market of ideas. Do you really think they are all colluding? Why do we not have dissenting scientists coming out all over to reveal and refute it all over the world? There are dissenters but its a small percentage. One email scandal is your smoking gun for the whole thing?

    Secondly, what you are doing trying to refute science by anecdote. The whole point of science is to collect and analyze data, present it as evidence, with a detailed write-up of your methods and how you reached your conclusions, such that anyone can recreate and/or refute your conclusions. Over time, as other scientists collect data that agrees or disagrees with that data, we either reach consensus or we don't.

    What we have on climate change is a very strong consensus across many scientific disciplines . . . sure there are still disputes, but there are always disputes in the scientific community about almost everything - the presence of those disputes isn't proof that the entire thing is false, you must consider the preponderance of evidence: which, on climate, points very strongly towards anthropogenic global warming.

    The 'global cooling' argument, and the email scandal, doesn't try to do any of that - it tries to refute mountains of science with a story about how science was once wrong. Science was wrong about many things for years until science proved otherwise, this is its purpose for existing. Please, if you want to refute science, do it with science, not anecdote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    Part of the reason I never had kids.
    Yep!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk the but 'Ice Age' story is really a straw man - propped up as evidence that science predicts all kinds of things and then easily knocked over because it was wrong.

    The global cooling stuff was a limited set of articles by a few scientists in the early 70s, and never came anywhere near the magnitude of scientific consensus and evidence that we have for global warming. Its like comparing a 7 y.o's little league baseball team to the winner of last years World Series, they are orders of magnitude different in what they are.

    Its similar with the email scandal - extremely small in the grand scheme. Are thousands of scientists from a hundred different countries all conspiring to falsify data? When data and conclusions are wrong, there is significant motive for other scientists to prove it and it comes out.

    Scientists are an introverted, egotistical, skeptical bunch who silently compete fiercely with each other for fame and notoriety and love shoving it their competitors faces when they are truly wrong. Those who successfully prove things wrong, going against what was thought to be settled science, get book deals, grants, company investment in their labs - there is great motive to do it - it's a self-regulating market of ideas. Do you really think they are all colluding? Why do we not have dissenting scientists coming out all over to reveal and refute it all over the world? There are dissenters but its a small percentage. One email scandal is your smoking gun for the whole thing?

    Secondly, what you are doing trying to refute science by anecdote. The whole point of science is to collect and analyze data, present it as evidence, with a detailed write-up of your methods and how you reached your conclusions, such that anyone can recreate and/or refute your conclusions. Over time, as other scientists collect data that agrees or disagrees with that data, we either reach consensus or we don't.

    What we have on climate change is a very strong consensus across many scientific disciplines . . . sure there are still disputes, but there are always disputes in the scientific community about almost everything - the presence of those disputes isn't proof that the entire thing is false, you must consider the preponderance of evidence: which, on climate, points very strongly towards anthropogenic global warming.

    The 'global cooling' argument, and the email scandal, doesn't try to do any of that - it tries to refute mountains of science with a story about how science was once wrong. Science was wrong about many things for years until science proved otherwise, this is its purpose for existing. Please, if you want to refute science, do it with science, not anecdote.




    If you re-read what I wrote you'll discover that I am not trying to refute science, I am simply pointing out why so many people have issues with the entire global warming issue. I never made any argument for or against.
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  34. #34
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    So, for those of you that doubt man-made climate change or that we can do anything to positively impact it, do you reuse, recycle, minimize impact, etc?

    I ask because I know a guy who refuses to recycle his glass, aluminum or paper, because... Well, I'm not sure why. He doesn't separate his trash, even though we all have recycle cans as part of our trash pick up. He even gets pissed off if he sees someone picking out his recyclables. Me? I really don't give a shit if someone picks through the recycle bin to make a few bucks off of the stuff that I'm too lazy to take in myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    The Paris Accords are a joke with no punchline. It accomplishes nothing other make some activists feel good.

    Whether the US stays in or pulls out will make no difference to climate change.



    It will help things but as usual it is a program that will be rife with corruption reducing it's effectiveness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It will help things but as usual it is a program that will be rife with corruption reducing it's effectiveness.
    You pretty much just described every government program ever


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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    If you re-read what I wrote you'll discover that I am not trying to refute science, I am simply pointing out why so many people have issues with the entire global warming issue. I never made any argument for or against.
    The "issues" most people have with it are generally not based on science (observations, reviewing the literature, etc) but their own biases.

    They aren't seeking out much more than a Facebook or other social media post, which of course has been carefully curated to be displayed for them, on the page of a like-minded friend, using a skillfully designed algorithm.

    I would love it if the theory was proved wrong tomorrow. Why? Because, as part of my graduate education, I studied large scale land cover change. And if what people far smarter than me are right, it's going to be a bumpy ride. I think we'd all prefer that not happen. There are no college professors running their hands gleefully at the thought of glaciers or ice caps melting. And, there is very little money in studying this theory now; the pool is small and shallow, and divided enough ways, most people aren't getting much more than a toe in the pool. In terms of grant/research money, they'd be better off if their research proved global warming DIDN'T exist. But, available data (ice cores, pollen in lake sediment, etc) does not bear that out.

    Also, in my field (remote sensing, phenology) and most others in the scientific community, peer review is pretty brutal. Some people exist simply to tear others down. If there were serious flaws with any paper, they would have been retracted long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It will help things but as usual it is a program that will be rife with corruption reducing it's effectiveness.
    I won't argue with you there. I don't see any alternative though (to governments addressing climate change). Companies can try but if they cede competitive advantage their shareholders replace the leadership. Consumers play a role but not enough. All of us would have to stop buying anything plastic from china.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Trump misrepresented the degrees data yesterday. The Paris accord has more temperature benefit than he indicated:

    Trump misunderstood MIT climate research, university officials say | Reuters

    "If we don't do anything, we might shoot over 5 degrees or more and that would be catastrophic," said John Reilly, the co-director of the program, adding that MIT's scientists had had no contact with the White House and were not offered a chance to explain their work."
    It will not make any difference because most other nations will take no actions either. They will give lip service and proclaim they are good guys but take no meaningful steps. A few will actually do something, most won't. The biggest emitters have the most to lose in economic growth and will not hurt themselves. Putin is already indicating he will not restrict Russia's economic growth to meet the Accords. China will do so only to the extent of cleaning up their own internal pollution problem. India will most likely talk the talk but not walk the walk. Same for the EU.
    Even if everyone played in the sandbox nicely and followed the intent of the accords it would only slow the growth to 2c -- a level that will still cause the predicted long term problems.

    To halt any further increases the global emissions would need to drop to 1950 level. Since the world population is now 4x what it was in 1950 this would mean the world would need 1/4 the per capita emissions of 1950. Feel like becoming Amish? Ending private ownership of automobiles? Want government panels to determine how large a home you are allowed to live in or how many electric devices you are allowed to own? Apply to the government for the license to have a child? That would of course only stop the increase. It would not roll back to a stable climate. Some models show we are past the tipping point and no action however draconian will cause a roll back.

    Climate change is inevitable. All the accords, all the cloth bags, electric cars, and carbon taxes on the planet will not stop it. It is happening and there is nothing that can be done except slightly slow the rate of change.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It will help things but as usual it is a program that will be rife with corruption reducing it's effectiveness.
    So we should just rely on the good nature of corporations to protect us?

    I used to work at Super Fund sites. I know how much the average corporation cares about the health of those who don't directly impact their quarterly earnings statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    So we should just rely on the good nature of corporations to protect us?

    I used to work at Super Fund sites. I know how much the average corporation cares about the health of those who don't directly impact their quarterly earnings statements.

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    That is not at all what I'm suggesting. I do suggest that most of the money winds up lining someones pockets. Maybe some active oversight should come along with the funding for a change? But that won't happen, a nod and a wink is the only way this thing got passed in the first place. To suggest anything other than that is laughable and part of the reason people do not believe in these types of solutions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krel View Post
    It's scary as hell and I really worry about what's going to happen for my kids and their kids.
    I don't think our kids are likely to have kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    Part of the reason I never had kids.
    Just you keep telling yourself that ;0)

    Anyway, I live in Scotland. Global warming? About time!

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    Not going to have kids because of the world today is a fuked argument. If you think you are so smart, and are so sensitive, and thoughtful that you're not going to have children, the only thing you are doing is instead filling the world with stupid thoughtless people who couldn't give a shit. Because they are dropping kids all over the place. But at least that's an area where you can make a difference. Because as far as global warming.....

    I liken gw to a new religion. If you can look at, oh, it's been getting warmer since the industrial revolution, it must be us. Then you have to forget or dismiss, or make up reasons to discount all the rest of proven history to make that theory work. That's more like religion than science. If people who don't believe get belittled, persecuted, and labeled....
    We think we're so smart that we have it all figured out. Now we think we can figure out to how much of a degree we can effect global temps. It's completely laughable.
    If for nothing else we make a cleaner, more responsible planet for the future, I'm all for a curbing or eliminating man made greenhouse gases.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    the only thing you are doing is instead filling the world with stupid thoughtless people who couldn't give a shit. Because they are dropping kids all over the place.
    So anyone who has a brain is supposed to try to "out-****" the dumb people? Well it's no so much the ****ing that counts its the pregnancies, but, uhhh, when you are "competing" with people that don't understand how birth control works you're really showing up to a gunfight with a pitbull. In other words, Idiocracy is a documentary.

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    I get really annoyed when I see the talking heads on various TV shows 'discussing' these issues, and you have people on one side expounding that the renewable industries will create more wealth than fossil fuel industries, so this is how we must go. I take issue with the fact that it always comes down to the economic argument, which should not be the only valid one. The fact of the matter is that our efforts should have been accelerated years ago to pursue all possible avenues of renewable energy options, even if this had cost, or would cost us in the short term. We should be the leaders in these efforts and not leave it up to the Danes, the Germans, the Norwegians and so on. Any so called civilized society should be doing all it can to ensure quality of life for itself and its descendants, and this is something that our greed and self-centeredness has dressed up, denied, or otherwise ignored in the feathering of our own nests.
    Some are doing all they can, and good for them, but it's beyond time for the rest of us to follow suit. The arguments that say: "That country is just going to cheat so it ain't worth us doing it", or "that guy next door ain't doing anything with his trash so I'm not going to bother" just don't cut it any more. We all have to do something now, however small, it all helps. If the however many billion people all did something, we would be much better off. If nothing else, it may buy us the time we may need for "Science" to come up with better and more workable solutions.
    Many will dismiss these sentiments and dig more holes and buy more guns for the coming apocalypse. personally I would rather live in a world where we are striving to make a better place for all to live that live in a fukking hole in the ground in fear. Sometimes the ignorant insularity of this country, and the country I came from, England, leaves me aghast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    So anyone who has a brain is supposed to try to "out-****" the dumb people? Well it's no so much the ****ing that counts its the pregnancies, but, uhhh, when you are "competing" with people that don't understand how birth control works you're really showing up to a gunfight with a pitbull. In other words, Idiocracy is a documentary.
    Not what I'm saying.
    Humans evolved so successfully in large part because of our smarts. In the past, when we had real survival issues, the smarter among us were better able to raise their offspring to maturity. Which in turn made people, as a whole, smarter. People that got along well with others in return got help from others to raise their children to maturity. Which made people, as a whole, more kind and thoughtful.
    Now, with life comparatively much easier, that's no longer the case, real, and has consequences.
    If you want to ignore that, which should be clear, obvious, and make sense to someone with a "brain", and instead turn it into whatever you did up there....have fun in your empty nest, while waiting for the end of the world.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    I get really annoyed when I see the talking heads on various TV shows 'discussing' these issues, and you have people on one side expounding that the renewable industries will create more wealth than fossil fuel industries, so this is how we must go. I take issue with the fact that it always comes down to the economic argument, which should not be the only valid one. The fact of the matter is that our efforts should have been accelerated years ago to pursue all possible avenues of renewable energy options, even if this had cost, or would cost us in the short term. We should be the leaders in these efforts and not leave it up to the Danes, the Germans, the Norwegians and so on. Any so called civilized society should be doing all it can to ensure quality of life for itself and its descendants, and this is something that our greed and self-centeredness has dressed up, denied, or otherwise ignored in the feathering of our own nests.
    Some are doing all they can, and good for them, but it's beyond time for the rest of us to follow suit. The arguments that say: "That country is just going to cheat so it ain't worth us doing it", or "that guy next door ain't doing anything with his trash so I'm not going to bother" just don't cut it any more. We all have to do something now, however small, it all helps. If the however many billion people all did something, we would be much better off. If nothing else, it may buy us the time we may need for "Science" to come up with better and more workable solutions.
    Many will dismiss these sentiments and dig more holes and buy more guns for the coming apocalypse. personally I would rather live in a world where we are striving to make a better place for all to live that live in a fukking hole in the ground in fear. Sometimes the ignorant insularity of this country, and the country I came from, England, leaves me aghast.
    Good stuff rockerc
    We need to have more open minded opinions and outlooks like this to move forward in a productive way.
    Round and round we go

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    In general, I'm not a fan of anything liberal. However, in this case, I don't understand the resistance of those on the right to reducing carbon emissions. It seems to me that fossil fuels are the past and that renewable fuels are the future. Why do we want to keep trashing the planet? Also, eliminating fossil fuels will allow us to end reliance on those Middle Eastern countries that hate us.

    The argument that I saw for Trump pulling out of the Paris accords was that the agreement wasn't about global warming but was more about redistributing American wealth all around the world. Sometimes, its hard to know who exactly is telling the truth.

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    Find it hard to believe, understand, comprehend, that not that long ago we were killing people because we thought they were witches, and sacrificing people for the the gods. In a world were when weather was good it was because God was happy with us. That now we have it all figured out.
    We can't control and manipulate nature to our benefit and then wonder where all the wildlife is going. Can't have it both ways, all the time. The common ground is somewhere in the middle, and imo most people these days only prop up and support one side of any given argument.
    When you're talking, typing, whatever, you are only communicating what you already know, or think you know. When you're listening you may learn something.
    It amuses me when I hear people talk about the climate as if they are an authority. Yet when you bring up things that are pretty much rock solid and proven, like the unpredictability of solar cycles, Milankovitch cycle, 800 year lag, the ocean's oscillations, etc., they don't have a clue or even better have never heard of them. But instead look at the last 130 years, and regurgitate talking points. That's a clever conversation that leaves out the clever
    Round and round we go

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    I live in Montana. There is evidence to show that this was a tropical paradise at one time and covered in ice during the glacial periods. I don't think there were enough humans at either time to influence world wide climate. So why is the present climate considered the norm?
    At the beginning of the global warming theories coming on the heels of the global cooling theories, two models emerged. One- warming will dry the planet and cause droughts, two- warming will evaporate more water causing more rain. So now the desert/drought theory is pushed because it is easier to control the masses with fear.
    Solyndra- redistribution of wealth to the connected sold on the premise of saving the planet. 535 million dollars, FBI investigation never happened. Many other similar stories out there.
    In my neighborhood, our yard has a cloths line to dry laundry- don't see many others. Many will talk the talk, how many walk the walk?
    Global warming, another means to control the masses.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    In general, I'm not a fan of anything liberal. However, in this case, I don't understand the resistance of those on the right to reducing carbon emissions. It seems to me that fossil fuels are the past and that renewable fuels are the future. Why do we want to keep trashing the planet? Also, eliminating fossil fuels will allow us to end reliance on those Middle Eastern countries that hate us.

    The argument that I saw for Trump pulling out of the Paris accords was that the agreement wasn't about global warming but was more about redistributing American wealth all around the world. Sometimes, its hard to know who exactly is telling the truth.
    Agreed, even thou I'm on the other side of things. I'm as liberal and progressive as they come. It saddens me that such an interesting topic has turned so political and biased. It goes deep. Way down to the foundation. Down to the institutions that are informing and training the scientist of tomorrow. Too much omg the world is going to end drama, and too much confidence and importance put into human's intelligence, and understanding
    Round and round we go

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Not going to have kids because of the world today is a fuked argument. If you think you are so smart, and are so sensitive, and thoughtful that you're not going to have children, the only thing you are doing is instead filling the world with stupid thoughtless people who couldn't give a shit. Because they are dropping kids all over the place. But at least that's an area where you can make a difference. Because as far as global warming.....

    I liken gw to a new religion. If you can look at, oh, it's been getting warmer since the industrial revolution, it must be us. Then you have to forget or dismiss, or make up reasons to discount all the rest of proven history to make that theory work. That's more like religion than science. If people who don't believe get belittled, persecuted, and labeled....
    We think we're so smart that we have it all figured out. Now we think we can figure out to how much of a degree we can effect global temps. It's completely laughable.
    If for nothing else we make a cleaner, more responsible planet for the future, I'm all for a curbing or eliminating man made greenhouse gases.
    Sounds like you're not against greenhouse gas limits, but you're not convinced AGW is real.

    Can i just ask, what really would convince you at this point? What would you have to see?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Sounds like you're not against greenhouse gas limits, but you're not convinced AGW is real.

    Can i just ask, what really would convince you at this point? What would you have to see?
    The planet has been warming for around the last 130 years. That is real. That has swung back and forth throughout time. Whether or not, or by how much humans impacted that, that debate is far from over.
    For starters would have to see it get as warm as it has in the past. The proven reality is that it has been much warmer, and warmer for longer, before and after people walked the planet. Before this whole agw craze, our current warm and c02 level was easily predicted given the medieval warm period which peaked 800 years ago. Given the widely believed and proven lag in Ocean temps/c02. Or the warm spike before an ice age as proven though ice core data and other means, using the Milankovitch cycle.
    Round and round we go

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    To the folks arguing that the Paris pact is a way to make a lot of money, opposing it is worth a lot of money too. There is always money to be made on anything.

    http://deadstate.org/these-22-gop-se...ed-by-big-oil/

    We must ask, what is the right thing to do, and what will avert the most human suffering?

    We here are in the developed world, we are the first class passengers. When the ship goes down, we will always get life boats. WHO estimates 250k deaths per year from 2030 on, in the poor countries. Add to that mass migration on a scale never seen. If anyone thinks immigration is a problem now just wait. Walls have historically failed on their task. Add to that gobal political conflicts like Syria, expanding throughout areas with energy resources but lacking the resources to successfully feed their citizens. Those will affect every country in some way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    To the folks arguing that the Paris pact is a way to make a lot of money, opposing it is worth a lot of money too. There is always money to be made on anything.

    GOP senators who pushed Trump to ditch Paris deal took over $10 million from big oil – DeadState

    We must ask, what is the right thing to do, and what will avert the most human suffering?



    How much do supporters get? I know I'm not getting anything. I know that my taxes keep rising but half the people in this country have no worries about that. That's what I mean about the people that can least afford it wind up footing the bill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    To the folks arguing that the Paris pact is a way to make a lot of money, opposing it is worth a lot of money too. There is always money to be made on anything.

    GOP senators who pushed Trump to ditch Paris deal took over $10 million from big oil – DeadState

    We must ask, what is the right thing to do, and what will avert the most human suffering?
    Have your cake and eat it too.
    We can't come up with cures and fixes to all that ails us, and strive to provide a world were everyone prospers. Then wonder why there's so many people, and after the fact wonder what we can do to make the globe sustainable. Althou that's what we do with our best intentions
    Round and round we go

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    Climate change

    Visualizations are a good way to understand historical temperature data. Here's two good ones.


    http://blogs.reading.ac.uk/climate-l..._optimized.gif

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_t...imeline_2x.png



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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    We need to have more open minded opinions and outlooks like this to move forward in a productive way.
    Don't you guys get it. It doesn't make any difference.

    Human nature is inherently selfish and short-sighted and it doesn't matter if you double the number of people who care enough about the planet to make deep sacrifices, it still won't be enough. It still won't be close to being nearly remotely enough. Even if you manage to bring about significant change for the better, it's still only a matter of time until we stuff the world up in some way. Or the world has a yawn and a stretch and wipes out half of us in a blink!

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Have your cake and eat it too.
    We can't come up with cures and fixes to all that ails us, and strive to provide a world were everyone prospers. Then wonder why there's so many people, and after the fact wonder what we can do to make the globe sustainable. Althou that's what we do with our best intentions
    But here's the thing, it's on us, the US played a MAJOR role in it. Post WWII, we split the world (focusing on energy resources) with Britain and the Soviets. We got free energy from exploited countries for years, and never paid the true cost. The computer or phone you're on, the Internet, the food you eat, enabled by cheap energy, allowing one person to feed a thousand people, freeing up labor to invest in technology and amenities we take for granted today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krel View Post
    Visualizations are a good way to understand historical temperature data. Here's two good ones.


    http://blogs.reading.ac.uk/climate-l..._optimized.gif

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/earth_t...imeline_2x.png



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    You can't look at a snippet of time's climate and come to a conclusion. I could easily point to times, like when dinosaurs roamed the planet, when temps were much warmer, and c02 much higher, way before humans could have possibly made an impact to contradict your data.
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    But here's the thing, it's on us, the US played a MAJOR role in it. Post WWII, we split the world (focusing on energy resources) with Britain and the Soviets. We got free energy from exploited countries for years, and never paid the true cost. The computer or phone you're on, the Internet, the food you eat, enabled by cheap energy, allowing one person to feed a thousand people, freeing up labor to invest in technology and amenities we take for granted today.



    I for one am tired of watching the money the U.S. sends to foreign nations enriching a few of the ruling class. Any funding we provide is wasted imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Don't you guys get it. It doesn't make any difference.

    Human nature is inherently selfish and short-sighted and it doesn't matter if you double the number of people who care enough about the planet to make deep sacrifices, it still won't be enough. It still won't be close to being nearly remotely enough. Even if you manage to bring about significant change for the better, it's still only a matter of time until we stuff the world up in some way. Or the world has a yawn and a stretch and wipes out half of us in a blink!
    Agreed. We're not changing any minds up in here. Time will teach us some lessons, again
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I for one am tired of watching the money the U.S. sends to foreign nations enriching a few of the ruling class. Any funding we provide is wasted imo.
    We're all in it together. The sooner you realize that...
    Round and round we go

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    We're all in it together. The sooner you realize that...


    What? Enriching a few? That's all that happens. It's a noble cause but it's only going to make a few wealthier and do zip about the actual issues. As usual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    I for one am tired of watching the money the U.S. sends to foreign nations enriching a few of the ruling class. Any funding we provide is wasted imo.
    Agreed, on most if it. Some of it is purely humanitarian.

    Supporting Israel as we do, with hundreds of billions a year, without more pressure for a two state solution, creates terrorists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    creates terrorists.


    The U.S. excels at that unfortunately.
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    Noise. All fukking noise. There's nothing 'liberal' about not wanting to screw up the planet. That is just another epithet hurled around to justify ignorance. It is basic common sense that we need to do something about climate change, and to those who claim it has nothing or little to do with mankind, get your friggin heads out of the sand. Those who say it ain't worth doing anything as it will not make any difference, you are as bad as those who deny and consume/discard without thought. Of course it is worth trying to do something. HOWEVER SMALL! You who do nothing are the problem.
    As for humanitarian aid, yes some goes to the wealthy and not the people who need it most, but a great deal goes to help those who do need it. I am sure there are hundreds of aid workers with boots on the ground in stricken environments who would love to take you to task on this. We should not stop trying to help those less fortunate than ourselves in this global community, but do everything in our power to stop the corruption, and that does not include stopping the aid.
    The selfish "tough shit" attitudes I see that seem to be on the increase really make me mad!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Noise. All fukking noise. There's nothing 'liberal' about not wanting to screw up the planet. That is just another epithet hurled around to justify ignorance. It is basic common sense that we need to do something about climate change, and to those who claim it has nothing or little to do with mankind, get your friggin heads out of the sand. Those who say it ain't worth doing anything as it will not make any difference, you are as bad as those who deny and consume/discard without thought. Of course it is worth trying to do something. HOWEVER SMALL! You who do nothing are the problem.
    As for humanitarian aid, yes some goes to the wealthy and not the people who need it most, but a great deal goes to help those who do need it. I am sure there are hundreds of aid workers with boots on the ground in stricken environments who would love to take you to task on this. We should not stop trying to help those less fortunate than ourselves in this global community, but do everything in our power to stop the corruption, and that does not include stopping the aid.
    The selfish "tough shit" attitudes I see that seem to be on the increase really make me mad!



    There is nothing at all wrong with wanting, no, demanding accountability and oversight of 100's of millions of dollars. If that's what you consider a "tough shit" attitude, so be it.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    There is nothing at all wrong with wanting, no, demanding accountability and oversight of 100's of millions of dollars. If that's what you consider a "tough shit" attitude, so be it.
    I don't recall stating anything of the sort. Hmm, let me reread what I wrote...

    Nope, nothing like that... Maybe go check it out again?!?
    It's all Here. Now.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    The planet has been warming for around the last 130 years. That is real. That has swung back and forth throughout time. Whether or not, or by how much humans impacted that, that debate is far from over.
    For starters would have to see it get as warm as it has in the past. The proven reality is that it has been much warmer, and warmer for longer, before and after people walked the planet. Before this whole agw craze, our current warm and c02 level was easily predicted given the medieval warm period which peaked 800 years ago. Given the widely believed and proven lag in Ocean temps/c02. Or the warm spike before an ice age as proven though ice core data and other means, using the Milankovitch cycle.
    OK, so I presume we agree that both the actual temp is rising, and the atmospheric CO2 is rising. I think you're saying that there's no proof that it's man made, does that fairly summarize your position?

    It's true that atmospheric CO2 has been higher, and global temps have been higher, for example during the Cretaceous. But what if you saw data that CO2 and temps have never risen this fast? Would anything change your mind?

  71. #71
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    . But what if you saw data that CO2 and temps have never risen this fast? Would anything change your mind?
    That's what I think those infographics/comics/gifs are especially good for, it makes it easy to visualize those changes - and it's the rate of change that is so terrifying and in my opinion makes it very obvious that humans are the major cause.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    OK, so I presume we agree that both the actual temp is rising, and the atmospheric CO2 is rising. I think you're saying that there's no proof that it's man made, does that fairly summarize your position?

    It's true that atmospheric CO2 has been higher, and global temps have been higher, for example during the Cretaceous. But what if you saw data that CO2 and temps have never risen this fast? Would anything change your mind?
    There's no data to support that "fast" claim. The further back in time we go, the blurrier the exact percentages and timeline becomes. It would be a guesstimate at best. Regardless of humans or not, c02 should be at a high point now, because of the medieval warm period 800 years ago.
    Fwiw, I have been fascinated and interested in climate and weather since I was a wee one. Was just an impressionable lil kid when the majority of scientists were warning of a cooling climate an the impending ice age upon us. Then the pdo flipped from a cool phase to a warm one and temps started to rebound. Right around the time Roger Revelle stole someone else's idea, and brought to the mainstream, the idea of how increase in c02 will, in a lab, cause temps to rise. Roger was btw, one of al gore's professors. I bought all this hook line and sinker. Until I started to dig deeper to find...temps have never throughout our history gone up because of higher c02, it's the other way round. And how data is tweaked and adjusted to a cause. How ppl who need a cause to feel good about, and take up arms and get all emotional and bent out of shape on a topic they know nothing, or close to nothing about. Now that I'm a dodgy geezer I've come to learn and realize that our media and govs around the world will bend the truth and attempt to bend our will. On agw they have won. If society does survive they willlookback at this time and laugh, and hopefully learn. Althou they will likely be in an ice age.
    Round and round we go

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Noise. All fukking noise. There's nothing 'liberal' about not wanting to screw up the planet. That is just another epithet hurled around to justify ignorance. It is basic common sense that we need to do something about climate change, and to those who claim it has nothing or little to do with mankind, get your friggin heads out of the sand. Those who say it ain't worth doing anything as it will not make any difference, you are as bad as those who deny and consume/discard without thought. Of course it is worth trying to do something. HOWEVER SMALL! You who do nothing are the problem.
    As for humanitarian aid, yes some goes to the wealthy and not the people who need it most, but a great deal goes to help those who do need it. I am sure there are hundreds of aid workers with boots on the ground in stricken environments who would love to take you to task on this. We should not stop trying to help those less fortunate than ourselves in this global community, but do everything in our power to stop the corruption, and that does not include stopping the aid.
    The selfish "tough shit" attitudes I see that seem to be on the increase really make me mad!
    You come in here and comment/congratulate members for being civil and encourage it. Then you follow it up with this post.
    Lol, see through. #highhorse, #soapbox
    Round and round we go

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    You can't look at a snippet of time's climate and come to a conclusion. I could easily point to times, like when dinosaurs roamed the planet, when temps were much warmer, and c02 much higher, way before humans could have possibly made an impact to contradict your data.
    You realize that humans were not alive at that time either, right? Took a huge asteroid to block the sun our for a long time and cool it down. We don't want it to get that much hotter.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    You come in here and comment/congratulate members for being civil and encourage it. Then you follow it up with this post.
    Lol, see through. #highhorse, #soapbox
    Just telling it like I see it Meat...!
    It's all Here. Now.

  76. #76
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    Come to Arizona. It's 107* today.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Come to Arizona. It's 107* today.
    Yup, and it was getting tough up the steep part of Upper Javelina this morning!
    It's all Here. Now.

  78. #78
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    Guys, this thread is about the climate, not the weather. Get with the program

    Making energy more expensive and limited goes against what liberals claim to be and stand for. You want to see a hockey stick, look at what energy has done for the poorest among us in the last 50-100 years.
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    Add to that the amount effort and energy, and the billions of dollars spent on proving agw. If we spent a portion of that time and money on the needy...So rockerc, get your head out of your ... and follow along.

    Look at this chart, and see where we are today. This is the omg cO2 is now driving the climate for the first time ever.
    Climate change-image.jpg

    Then look at what our best models predicted, and where we actually ended up
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    Moving along. Now check out how much warmer, and warmer for longer we as humans have been through. I might add that when the planet was warmer, is when we advanced and prospered the most
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    Now for the global warming cheerleaders, who love to look at the warming of the last 130 years, let's look back just a lil further.
    Climate change-image.png

    And finally, and this is the kicker, this is controlled by our orbit around the sun (Milankovitch), so unless this relatively minuscule up tick in c02 is going to change that, look at what we're heading toward. While in our infinite wisdom we prepare for the opposite.
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    I know I can't be the only former agw cheerleader to figure this out. And if I am, I'm way smarter than I ever thought I was
    Round and round we go

  79. #79
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    Meat, you're a dweeb, round and round we go again indeed! These graphs prove jack shit because none have ever taken into account the fact that mankind is now part of the equation. I suggest you try and extrapolate into the future cos none of these are any good at it.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Meat, you're a dweeb, round and round we go again indeed! These graphs prove jack shit because none have ever taken into account the fact that mankind is now part of the equation. I suggest you try and extrapolate into the future cos none of these are any good at it.
    You should really educate yourself before you start judging and preaching to others about a given subject. Pretty obvious and understandable why you would resort to name calling.
    Round and round we go

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    You should really educate yourself before you start judging and preaching to others about a given subject. Pretty obvious and understandable why you would resort to name calling.
    Meat, I respect your efforts to educate yourself and others, but this statistical hubbub you continue to expound is simply irrelevant for the reasons I stated. All it is is a record of the past, and it takes no account of what is currently happening. And maybe we need to know where that red line goes in the penultimate graph before jumping to too many conclusions.
    And by the way, a dweeb to me is a nerd, and there are many who assume that mantle gladly.
    It's all Here. Now.

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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Meat, I respect your efforts to educate yourself and others, but this statistical hubbub you continue to expound is simply irrelevant for the reasons I stated. All it is is a record of the past, and it takes no account of what is currently happening. And maybe we need to know where that red line goes in the penultimate graph before jumping to too many conclusions.
    And by the way, a dweeb to me is a nerd, and there are many who assume that mantle gladly.
    Interesting...
    Didn't consider man while debating man made agw.
    People have never, and probably never will know where the red line is headed.
    If you want to have a conversation and have people follow along, when using key words that are designed to impres or make an impact, you should probably consider their actual meaning

    penultimate
    pəˈnəltəmət/
    adjective
    last but one in a series of things; second to the last.
    Round and round we go

  84. #84
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    Thanks for the informative post meat, but I'm afraid I absolutely do know what penultimate means, and I use it in daily conversation. I do not happen to find this impressive, it merely shows I am lucky enough to have had a good education.
    It's all Here. Now.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Thanks for the informative post meat, but I'm afraid I absolutely do know what penultimate means, and I use it in daily conversation. I do not happen to find this impressive, it merely shows I am lucky enough to have had a good education.
    No need to get defensive and post up resume
    You clearly mis used the word, as well as others, and clearly contradict yourself on things you pretend to feel so strongly about.
    Like "those who don't believe in man made blah blah blah should get their head out of...", then, "we should probably know where the red line is going before we jump to too many conclusions". We don't know where the red line is headed. That's the point of this whole thread. So enough about you, the thread already has a topic
    Round and round we go

  86. #86
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    Round and round we go

  87. #87
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    The issue is not whether the climate is changing or not. It clearly is.
    The points in dispute are the cause (mostly, but not entirely, humans) and what is the best way to deal with the change.

    With the first, completely eliminating all anthropogenic causes would slow, but still not halt warming. The natural rate of change would still occur. Complete elimination of all human effects is politically impossible.

    The best way to deal with it is adaptation. The original IPCC charter states the goals are to determine methods to both mitigate AND ADAPT. Even back in 1988 the world recognized stopping warming was impossible.

    Paris accords do nothing. It is a deeply flawed agreement, more a warm and fuzzy feel-good story than concrete action plan. John Kerry admitted as such when he returned from the negotiations, stating "It is the best we are going to get."
    So many trails... so little time...

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Here's my thing... Whether or not you believe that climate change is, at least in part, man-made (and I do), why not do what's right regardless? Minimize your footprint, think and act in an ecologically ethical manner, recycle, reuse, reduce waste, use energy saving techniques and products wherever possible. I mean, holy crap, we're treating our planet like an f-ing pig sty!
    yup, yup and fuvkin yup.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    If you want to ignore that, which should be clear, obvious, and make sense to someone with a "brain", and instead turn it into whatever you did up there....have fun in your empty nest, while waiting for the end of the world.
    As you think I don't have a brain, and I don't have children, the only logical conclusion is that my actions in life have resulted in hapiness for you, I generally like to make people happy, that also results in me being happy, so we have a win win situation here!

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    As you think I don't have a brain, and I don't have children, the only logical conclusion is that my actions in life have resulted in hapiness for you, I generally like to make people happy, that also results in me being happy, so we have a win win situation here!
    Didn't think you don't have a brain. Nor did I take your comments to mean you didn't have or want children. Thought you just meant that as an in general comment, as I did mine. Because some people imo shouldn't have children, just that some are smart and unselfish enough to realize that.
    Round and round we go

  91. #91
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    Buggers indeed meat!
    "Termite gas production has become particularly high, the researchers say, because widespread clearing of land has offered them abundant food in the debris of felled forests. "

    And who is it that fells the forests?

    Read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest! Then fart out whatever you like The termites have you covered!
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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    Buggers indeed meat!
    "Termite gas production has become particularly high, the researchers say, because widespread clearing of land has offered them abundant food in the debris of felled forests. "

    And who is it that fells the forests?

    Read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest! Then fart out whatever you like The termites have you covered!
    Talk about farting out whatever. I posted the link. I knew what it said. Glad you read the link, sad you read it to try and prove me wrong, rather than learn something.
    My point was just that with this debate is over bs, we think we have our finger on it. Meanwhile there's so many aspects that we couldn't possibly. Not to mention all the effort and reasons that went untold and undiscovered, that now make the post because it's another omg we have to do something now way to sell bs

    Don't know who remembers
    Couple of years ago when solar activity slowed dramatically. Smart meteorologists and climatologists knew that meant a slowing of the jet stream. Which causes a less straight, more north south swing. As well when the pdo is in a switching from cool to warm phase, or warm to cool phase, the same result occurs. We had both things happening. The first year we had it the term polar vortex became a catch phrase. Which causes Arctic air to plunge way down south. Then the next year we had even more polar vortex events, because a blocking up near Alaska/being sea, known as an Alaskan gate just exaggerated it. By the end of the second year all these articles started to come out with these cockamamie reasons that made no sense, but of course it was agw fault. We can't have it getting colder. It must be agw that's causing the cold, right? Guess as long as it agw fault, it makes the post. Funny how unbiased knowledgeable people predicted this would happen years before it did and could tell you why, and after it happened people trying to taint the whole subject had to figure out a way to get an angle on why it's agw. Have seen so many things like this occur, it makes it pretty obvious what's going on
    Last edited by theMeat; 06-09-2017 at 05:17 AM.
    Round and round we go

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Talk about farting out whatever. I posted the link. I knew what it said. Glad you read the link, sad you read it to try and prove me wrong, rather than learn something.
    My point was just that with this debate is over bs, we think we have our finger on it. Meanwhile there's so many aspects that we couldn't possibly. Not to mention all the effort and reasons that went untold and undiscovered, that now make the post because it's another omg we have to do something now way to sell bs
    You've lost me now.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    You've lost me now.
    Sorry, it doesn't take much, lol. I posted it, knew what it said. Instead of you seeing me trying not to be a close minded biased jerk, you try to find info to shoot me down.
    We can read about, and now you know about, termites and their effect on greenhouse gases. Yet a much bigger story is about how low solar activity has been. Its pretty monumental, and the exact opposite of what was "predicted". Yet most people, even most agw cheerleaders who supposedly care so deeply, haven't a clue
    Round and round we go

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockerc View Post
    You've lost me now.
    I couldn't follow along either.

  96. #96
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    Actually it's climate cooling. Today was 107*. Last year on this date was 112*.

    I'm curios if the cooling is man caused?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Actually it's climate cooling. Today was 107*. Last year on this date was 112*.

    I'm curios if the cooling is man caused?
    My kids can't seem to keep the damn door closed.


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    LOL I started reading the first comments and they were all respectful and generally thoughtful, then scrolled down to the last ones ... they've somehow changed tone.

    BTW global warming is real and it is caused by humans, theMeat. So there.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  99. #99
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    Is climate change real? Depends if you asked someone in northern Texas or southern Texas on that day.

    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    The issue is not whether the climate is changing or not. It clearly is.
    The points in dispute are the cause (mostly, but not entirely, humans) and what is the best way to deal with the change.

    With the first, completely eliminating all anthropogenic causes would slow, but still not halt warming. The natural rate of change would still occur. Complete elimination of all human effects is politically impossible.

    The best way to deal with it is adaptation. The original IPCC charter states the goals are to determine methods to both mitigate AND ADAPT. Even back in 1988 the world recognized stopping warming was impossible.

    Paris accords do nothing. It is a deeply flawed agreement, more a warm and fuzzy feel-good story than concrete action plan. John Kerry admitted as such when he returned from the negotiations, stating "It is the best we are going to get."
    While I agree that the Paris accords are mostly a big circle jerk, it does get the planet on the same page somewhat, and does get the planet headed in the right direction, wether for misguided goals or not. The reason it's for the most part it's a circle jerk is because any country can make any commitments they want, and there's basically no means for them to be held to the terms. Can promise anything you want, then do whatever you want. For that same reason it's pretty silly not to be a part of what the rest of the world is apart of. When n Korea is there, and we are not, it's just bad for brand America
    Round and round we go

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